DO you agree with The Cat?

[skynightblaze]

I have created this poll just to what everyone thinks of the hadiths. According to The CAt every single hadith is useless and a fabrication and none should be taken as authentic.I would like to know how many of you support his position. Your views are welcome even if they are contrary to mine. Please feel free to express your opinions. I recently had a lot of debate with Cat and that is scattered over a few threads. Those who have read it can directly vote while those who are interested in reading and voting can access it at the following links...


viewtopic.php?f=21&t=6206

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7680&start=0

viewtopic.php?p=128076#p128076

[fakknows]

Not valid

[Wootah]

I disagree with Cat.

I think the hadiths are bogus and obviously foolishness but are part of Islam. One cannot simply say that their religion of 1400 years is for them to choose.

If you want to be a Muslim - eat it all up. if you want to be a Christian - eat it all up. And so on.

One does hope and half expect for Islam to change because those hadith simply cannot survive scrutiny. Sigh what delusions even I/we still have. I guess hope is eternal.

[yeezevee]

I have created this poll just to what everyone thinks of the hadiths. According to The CAt every single hadith is useless and a fabrication and none should be taken as authentic.I would like to know how many of you support his position. Your views are welcome even if they are contrary to mine. Please feel free to express your opinions. I recently had a lot of debate with Cat and that is scattered over a few threads. Those who have read it can directly vote while those who are interested in reading and voting can access it at the following links...


viewtopic.php?f=21&t=6206

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7680&start=0

viewtopic.php?p=128076#p128076

well I am NOT going to vote SKB because you don't have the third option.. and that is


3). I agree with Cat but NOT because his arguments are valid.,

[skynightblaze]

well I am NOT going to vote SKB because you don't have the third option.. and that is


3). I agree with Cat but NOT because his arguments are valid.

I will put that option if you want but I didnt understand what you are trying to convey here. As far as my understanding goes you believe that CAt's approach is correct i.e its a good idea to show muslims that hadiths are unauthentic so that they give up nonsense from hadiths and the world would be much better. Well I aint asking whether muslims should follow hadiths or not. I am asking you from academic point of view. Whether muslims should follow them or not is a different issue.

My question is straightforward.

Do you think all the hadiths are unauthentic?

If you think all the hadiths are unauthentic then there must be some reasons.You can post them in the thread where we are discussing.


EDIT

I will immediately put that option once I am sure you have understood my question. I dont want to influence your vote by having a debate with you.I want your current stance. I think you have misunderstood the question.IF your answer to my question is YES all the hadiths are unauthentic because I have my own reasons to believe I will put that option immediately and you can vote and later we can discuss them for the academic reasons.

[iffo]

Honest answer is 'No' , they can not be all wrong. Just like all Ibn Ishaq stories can not be wrong. But since its a mix bag, with both authentic and unautyhentic hadiths we can not take them seriously as we don't know which one is which.

[skynightblaze]

Honest answer is 'No' , they can not be all wrong. Just like all Ibn Ishaq stories can not be wrong. But since its a mix bag, with both authentic and unautyhentic hadiths we can not take them seriously as we don't know which one is which.

I will buy your stance but please vote as I want to know the no of people who agree with CAt and agree with me. Even if you support Cat its fine. No hard feelings.

Only one thing . The authenticity of some of the hadiths can be proven but anyway this poll is all about whether all the hadiths are valid or not.

[The Cat]

I have created this poll just to what everyone thinks of the hadiths. According to The CAt every single hadith is useless and a fabrication and none should be taken as authentic. this poll is all about whether all the hadiths are valid or not.

Wrong: I've maintained that the hadiths of Muhammad interdicting them were valids...

So that makes your poll both fallacious and... invalid!

But let it be your sugared ad populum fallacy.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... 15#1096915
''All hadiths are useless and unreliable''. (charleslemartel, may 2008).

[yeezevee]

Wrong: I've maintained that the hadiths of Muhammad interdicting them were valids...

can you give some examples of such hadith dear The Cat"and who collected them??


Difference Between Sunnah and Hadith (1)..Khalid Zaheer
http://www.khalidzaheer.com/qa/984

Spoiler! :

My current understanding is as follows: We have two main sources of God's system (besides our conscience).

1) Quran, the book of God
2) Sunnah of the last prophet (peace be upon him).

I am confused on the understanding of the word "Sunnah".

Javed Ahmad Ghamidi convinced me that the word Sunnah would mean worship methods and other practices that reached us from Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) through the crowd. Quran and Sunnah both reached us through the same source "crowd". I have always been reluctant to accept hadees books as part of Islam mainly because I think God's religion cannot be based on hearsay. That is why Javed Ahmad Sahib's argument convinced me.

I was living happily thereafter until I got a chance to have an open minded discussion with a Mufti Sahib yesterday. I shared with him my position and asked him to tell me along with reasons if I am wrong.

He put forward a very basic argument and I was surprised I had nothing to say.

He said, if I am ready to accept that Sunnah has reach us through the crowd then why it is hard for me to accept that Sunnah can also reach us in written form through the same crowd? Whatever is written in hadees books is also practiced by people (at least a group of people). Before hadees books were written down (about 200 years after the demise of Prophet pbuh), his saying were practiced by people although their written form did not exist at that time.

If I can say that methods implemented in the crowd is "sunnah" then what arguments do I have to exclude what is written in hadees books from sunnah category. The content of Hadees books' is a subset of what came to us though the crowd; as it is also practiced by people (at least by some group of people), besides the fact that it exist in written form as well.

Please spare some time to throw some light on this topic.

Here is another way of putting the question:

Lets take out hadees books out of the equation for a minute. If we want to define Sunnah in terms of what came to us through the crowd then how can we say that only A, B, and C will be considered as Sunnah, while D, E, and F will not be considered as Sunnah; although all A, B, C, D, E, and F are practiced by people and that is how they reached to us. And it happens to be that D, E, F are also written in hadees books.

God knows the best. May God guide me in the right direction.

Response:
It is good to know that you keep thinking about your religion with an open mind and you also allow others to criticise your understanding in the light of arguments. As long as you take arguments on their merit, even though you can at times be wrong, you will never be led astray, insha'Allah. I hope the Mufti Sahib you talked to and his students and followers also adopt the same approach.

The idea of religion coming to us through a crowd rather than an individual is very valid. It is indeed what distinguishes the reliable sources of religion (Qur'an and Sunnah) from the less reliable ones (hadith).

Indeed Mufti Sahib is right in claiming that Sunnah and Hadith are both followed by the crowd. However, the crowd of Sunnah started practising it right from the time of the prophet, alaihissalaam, and the crowd of hadith followed it more than two hundred years after the demise of the prophet, after hadith was collected and published. Prior to that event, hadith was khabare ahad: a report transmitted by one or a few individuals. Therefore, one shouldn't be confused by the mere mention of the involvement of crowd. The two hundred years from the time of the prophet onwards is critical. Whatever religious practices were followed by the crowd in that period were a part of the religious message of Islam. Whatever else was available could only be an explanation of it.

It is not correct to say that hadith is a subset of Sunnah. It is the other way round in fact. Hadith mentions lots of information about the prophet, alaihissalaam, and his times, while Sunnah is only his religious practice which was given to everyone to follow.

The only book of hadith that appeared in the second century Hijrah, Mauta Imam Malik, mentions hadith as a distinct source from Sunnah and Imam Malik expresses his clear preference for Sunnah compared to hadith.

[planck]

wait a minute. All the hadiths are invalid and untrue?

So all of this is fiction?
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... im/hadith/

[yeezevee]

Absurdities of Hadith & Muslim Denial
http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/hadith.pdf

[The Cat]

Wrong: I've maintained that the hadiths of Muhammad interdicting them were valids...

can you give some examples of such hadith dear The Cat"and who collected them??

That's one explanation for their authoritative absence for nearly two centuries.
The other one is that the hagiography of Muhammad wasn't yet forged enough...

viewtopic.php?p=122489#p122489

1. Under Muhammad
1. ---No contemporary hadiths from the time of Muhammad who ordered them not to be written down, but could only be transmitted orally. Ibn Saeed Al-Khudry reported that the messenger of God had said, "-Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it.-" The following historical incident happened about 30 years after the death of the Prophet Muhammad and shows that the Prophet never canceled his order not to write but the Quran.

2. Under the four righteous caliphs
2. ---No hadiths up to the time of Umar who destroyed all existing hadiths on the ground that they were ''like the Mishnah of the Jewish people''. He admonished Abu Hurairah for attempting to do so and for stealing: ''You're an enemy of Allah and of His Book'', emphasized by Aischa: ''you write ahadith of the Prophet we never heard of...'' And Ali Ibn Abu Talib, "I urge all those who have writings taken from the messenger of God to go home and erase it. The people before you were annihilated because they followed the Hadiths of their scholars and left the book of their Lord." (Sunan Al-Daramy).

In "Ulum Al-Hadith" by Ibn Al-Salah, reports a hadith by Abu Huraira in which he stated that the messenger of God came out to us while we were writing his hadiths and said; "What are you writing?" We said, "Hadiths that we hear from you, messenger of God." He said, "A book other than the book of God ?!" We said, "Should we talk about you?" He said, Talk about me, that would be fine, but those who will lie will go to Hell. Abu Huraira said, we collected what we wrote of Hadiths and burned them in fire.

3. Muawiya
3. ---The hadiths allegedly start with Muawiya who was in need of corroborations against Ali and the family of the Prophet, for he wasn't. He named Huraira as governor of Medina who helped him against Ali. From then on, the hadiths were made against Ali's partisans and family members... It's from this period that, according to Ibn Hanbal, Zayd Ibn Thabit (The Prophet's closest revelation writer) visited the Khalifa Muawiya (some 30 years after the Prophet's death), and told him a story about the Prophet. Muawiya liked the story and ordered someone to write it down. But Zayd said: "the messenger of God ordered us NEVER to write anything of his hadith."

Thanks for the Ali Sina PDF link.

[skynightblaze]

I have created this poll just to what everyone thinks of the hadiths. According to The CAt every single hadith is useless and a fabrication and none should be taken as authentic. this poll is all about whether all the hadiths are valid or not.

Wrong: I've maintained that the hadiths of Muhammad interdicting them were valids...

So that makes your poll both fallacious and... invalid!

But let it be your sugared ad populum fallacy.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... 15#1096915
''All hadiths are useless and unreliable''. (charleslemartel, may 2008).

How can make such a post wherein you next sentence invalidates the previous one?

Lets see how..

First of all you oppose my poll by saying "Wrong: I've maintained that the hadiths of Muhammad interdicting them were valids... So that makes your poll both fallacious and... invalid! " which means that your argument is not that all the hadiths are unauthentic otherwise it makes no sense to call my poll wrong!.IF that is the case in the very next sentence you brought a quote from Charleslemartel to reinforce your point that all the hadiths are unauthentic . If all the hadiths are unauthentic was never your point why would you bring Charleslemartel 's quote here which says all the hadiths are unauthentic ?

Lastly Charleslemartel is absent from the forum. As far as I know he doesnt agree with you at all. I know this because I had asked him his opinion once and he didnt agree with you at all.It could however be a different story now. We need him to show up here and give his opinion. Btw if you look at what charleslemartel was saying carefully in your link, you will realize that he made a sarcastic comment.

1. This is a weak hadith.
2. All hadiths are useless and unreliable.
3. "Run" and "Lion" in arabic mean something else (depends on the ingenuity of the Muslim claiming that).


Did I miss any possible defence?

Charlie said in response to the hadith that Intelligent lad brought up in his OP.


http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... 15#1096915

[The Cat]

Can't you even read yourself properly?

According to The CAt every single hadith is useless and a fabrication and none should be taken as authentic.

Since I recognized those of Muhammad interdicting the hadiths as worthy, you stand groundless and pants down.

You really have a problem with logic, showing throughout our debate, but now it's even with yourself.

This problem of yours with logic is underlined by this very pool:

The fallacy of Argumentum Ad Populum
viewtopic.php?p=128981#p128981

[charleslemartel]

Btw if you look at what charleslemartel was saying carefully in your link, you will realize that he made a sarcastic comment.

1. This is a weak hadith.
2. All hadiths are useless and unreliable.
3. "Run" and "Lion" in arabic mean something else (depends on the ingenuity of the Muslim claiming that).
Did I miss any possible defence?

Of course those were sarcastic comments, SNB!

And, no, I don't agree with The Cat at all. IMHO he is aiming, or hoping, for a reformation of Islam which is, and has been, a pipe dream for many optimists and romanticists throughout the history. If, at all, there is a baby in the bathwater of Islam, it must be thrown out too. I don't believe for a moment that there is any, I repeat, ANY, redeeming quality in Islam. It is too exclusive in its very nature.

The Muslims who profess to believe only in the Quran, and reject Sahih Hadiths, are only fooling themselves. Quran only Muslims don't stand any chance against their brethren who believe in sahih hadiths as far as pure logic and arguments are concerned. I must acknowledge here, however, that I respect QOM more than traditional Muslims simply because their very rejection of Hadiths proves that they feel ashamed of what their prophet did; and this fact establishes the fact that they haven't yet turned into complete Islamic zombies, and that there is still hope for them.

Islam, even solely as per the Quran, is too evil to be tolerated. Does this statement make me a bigot? May be it does. But I don't care about my virtual reputation. Heck, I don't care even for my real life reputation. I don't see any merit in being respected by morons around me.

It hurts me to state that the laughter smilies of The Cat appear as phony as some of the Muslims we encounter on a daily basis. I don't think any one else can see the humor The Cat intends, simply because I believe that I have a greatly refined sense of humor, and if I can't see the humor, it is simply not there. You may, here, call me a megalomaniac, but I am not bothered :-). I respect the knowledge The Cat brings in to this forum. I respect the extent of his reading which is greater than mine as far as Islam is concerned (Ibn Rushd is another such person). But (I may be fully wrong here) I doubt his understanding of what he has read or reads.

As you must have noticed, I have almost quit this forum. The reasons are mostly personal which are more pressing than discussions or debates on some internet forum. But I do try to keep track of what is happening here as FFI is like a family to me. I have been here even before I decided to finally settle on the nick name of CharlesLeMartel. You, along with one or two other members, know who I was here before I adopted the nick of CM.

I hate to claim that I am a mystic myself, but that is how I see myself based on my own experiences in the occult, meditation, and other subjective fields. Apart from MBL, I haven't come across any other person who appears to understand what I say, even though I know that even we two would disagree on many issue.

I say all these things only because I don't know if I would be writing another post at this forum, and also because a very old post of mine was quoted here. I don't intend to take up the issue with The Cat or any one else here.

Now that I am writing something which might very well be might last post here, I wouldn't forget to mention Ioshka and PB. Both of them are people I truly respect. I have always loved to read their posts, and wouldn't let go of an opportunity to read them even if they were writing against me. The member I respected most, even ahead of Ali Sina himself, was THHuxley even though I never agreed with his views on Obama. It doesn't really matter whether Obama ultimately proves Ali Sina or THH or myself right in the ultimate analysis.

I beg forgiveness of everyone here if I hurt them in anyway ever simply because I never intended to hurt anyone in anyway. I have been treated as one of the privileged members here, and I truly appreciate the honor. My eyes have been shedding tears while I have been writing this post.

Thank you, everyone.

[The Cat]

Take care my dear friend...

Debates I'm having are nothing compare to my best wishes concerning the personal matters you've mentioned.

I truly hope they settle down and allow you to come over here as in 'the good old days'.

[skynightblaze]

Now that I am writing something which might very well be might last post here,

Why ????? You can take a break and come back when you are settled but why do you want to leave everyone? On one hand you call FFI as a family and on the other hand you plan to leave it forever? No this isnt acceptable. I value you and your posts here.I hope you change your decision .

[massorite]

Yes I agree. If one were to spend a little research time on history of the Hadiths they would find that 99 persent of the Hadiths were not even written ontil many years after the death of Muhammad and are impossible to prove. But if anyone wishes to insist that the Hadiths are indeed true and authintic then the Hadith that tells us that MUHAMMAD HIM SELF STATED THAT THE HADITHS SHOULD NOT BE MADE IS EQUALLY TRUE AND AUTHENTIC which means that all of the hadiths were written against the will of Muhammad and Allah.

[skynightblaze]

Yes I agree. If one were to spend a little research time on history of the Hadiths they would find that 99 persent of the Hadiths were not even written ontil many years after the death of Muhammad and are impossible to prove. But if anyone wishes to insist that the Hadiths are indeed true and authintic then the Hadith that tells us that MUHAMMAD HIM SELF STATED THAT THE HADITHS SHOULD NOT BE MADE IS EQUALLY TRUE AND AUTHENTIC which means that all of the hadiths were written against the will of Muhammad and Allah.

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9716

Please answer what I have said in the above thread in that case.All these arguments have been debunked. Now its very obvious as to why muslims would want to reject ahadith. Its because they expose islam and that's why I want to end their deception of trying to falsely portray islam is good light. I wouldn't allow someone to portray muhammad as a saint when he was a criminal.

[The Cat]

And your shameful thread has been debunked thoroughly, as in ALL of our debates...

The Hadiths' Perfidy
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8185

Because:
--The Koran states so: 4.87; 7.185; 12.111; 31.6; 45.6 where hadiths are portrayed as vain discourses. 16.116 trashing their authority.
--Muhammad interdicted to write them down (see therein).
--History proves that this has been respected for around TWO centuries (see therein, the infamous early manuscripts).
--Intercession is for Allah alone (2.48; 2.123; 6.51; 6.94; 32.4, etc).
Much, much more therein!

You're even wrong about the Koraners for they are considered apostates by mainstream Muslims, these Sunnites you like to parrot.

Now, have a look at your own silliness...
viewtopic.php?p=128503#p128503

I am going to embarass you here. I have decided to create a poll myself because I know you are a coward who wont have a heart to accept defeat . I dont like doing such stuff but now I am forced to do it now . You should understand that none agrees with your crap and you are the one who is embarassing here. I will soon create a poll. If majority agrees with you on your stance on hadiths I will publicly apologize and I will accept that I was a fool and will take back what all I said.Its a promise!

First when trying to 'embarrass' anyone, you really should double check your typo... They're rather embarrassing for... you!

NONE agrees with my 'crap'? You're already proven wrong, for 10 (on 20) voters agreed with me. That's 10 above your expectations!
It's 50/50 right now... and how I wish a majority to see your promised apology, taking back -ALL- that you've said (so erroneously).