Page 1 of 1

Do you agree with Skynightblaze and Darth (33:21)?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:33 am
by MesMorial
Skynightblaze and Darth say that 33:21 is a verse which tells all people to follow Muhammad's personal example (recorded in ahadith).

Here it is in context:


"Allah knows indeed those among you who hinder others and those who say to their brethren: Come to us; and they come not to the fight but a little, being niggardly with respect to you; but when fear comes, you will see them looking to you, their eyes rolling like one swooning because of death; but when the fear is gone they smite you with sharp tongues, being niggardly of the good things. These have not believed, therefore Allah has made their doing naught; and this is easy to Allah. They think the allies are not gone, and if the allies should come [again] they would fain be in the deserts with the desert Arabs asking for news about you, and if they were among you they would not fight save a little. Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much. And when the believers saw the allies, they said: This is what Allah and His Messenger promised us, and Allah and His Messenger spoke the truth; and it only increased them in faith and submission. Of the believers are men who are true to the covenant which they made with Allah: so of them is he who accomplished his vow, and of them is he who yet waits, and they have not changed in the least that Allah may reward the truthful for their truth, and punish the hypocrites if He please or turn to them [mercifully]; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

Qur'an 33:18-24


So here is my response to them:


33:18-20 describes the poor behaviour of hypocrites in a situation of conflict.

33:21 says a good example was set by the Messenger for those who hope in Allah and remember Him much.

33:22 describes the behaviour of true believers in the same situation.

33:23 contrasts Muslim behaviour to that of the hypocrites (true Muslims are true to the covenant, whereas hypocrites flee).

33:24 inform us that a good example is in not doing what the hypocrites did.

Therefore 33:21 refers to the good example of the Messenger in displaying courage and trust in Allah.

Demonstrating a good example for those who do a particular thing means setting a good example in doing that thing.

Precisely the same expression is used for Prophet Ibrahim (60:6) in another contextual situation (60:4-6).

60:6 does not mean we need ahadith of Prophet Ibrahim, thus 33:21 does not mean we need ahadith of Prophet Muhammad.

The “good example” comes from conduct conforming to the ideals detailed by the Qur’an.

For instance: Prophet Ibrahim’s behaviour (9:114, 11:69, 11:75, 19:42-48).

Muhammad only followed what was revealed to him (2:170, 6:50, 6:106, 7:3, 7:203, 10:15, 10:109, 33:2, 46:9), and thus the example is an example in following the Qur'an. The example is described as one in "believing in the Last Day and remembering Allah much", but if one studies the Qur'an, they will see that it tells people to believe in the Last Day, and how to remember Allah. Someone who follows the Qur'an will be a good example in doing what the Qur'an teaches.

Yet people still use 33:21 to justify ahadith (because it pleases them).


Which hadith would they believe in after this?

Qur'an 45:6

Re: Do you agree with Skynightblaze and Darth (33:21)?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:28 pm
by The Cat
What do you think of this article?

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Uswa_Hasana

Re: Do you agree with Skynightblaze and Darth (33:21)?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:47 am
by MesMorial
The Cat wrote:What do you think of this article?

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Uswa_Hasana


I think it is where the people on this forum get their material.

Re: Do you agree with Skynightblaze and Darth (33:21)?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:28 pm
by The Cat
Yes of course but since this is your poll I was expecting a formal rebuttal from you...
That's why I brought it to your attention.

Re: Do you agree with Skynightblaze and Darth (33:21)?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:02 am
by MesMorial
The Cat wrote:Yes of course but since this is your poll I was expecting a formal rebuttal from you...
That's why I brought it to your attention.


The article relies on 2 verses. One is 33:21 which is already addressed, and 68:4 I already addressed with Darth. I will add a couple of verses to the rebuttal to 68:4 in the manual.

Re: Do you agree with Skynightblaze and Darth (33:21)?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:33 pm
by The Cat
1. General considerations over the Koranic 'messengers'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_in_Islam

The Koran effectively states that it is in continuation of the other scriptures. In fact, the very word 'Koran' (as a distinctive book)
only appears from the chronological 38th sura, then 41th (36.2) and 42th (25.30). The very notion of Umm-al-Kitab (not umm-al-
Quran, 3.7; 13.39; 43.4, ie. the source of ordinance) indicates that all messengers/messages have a timely equal status...

Noah, 26.108: So keep your duty to Allah, and obey me.
Hud, 26.126: So keep your duty to Allah and obey me.
Salih, 26.150-51: Therefor keep your duty to Allah and obey me
Shu'eb, 26.179: So keep your duty to Allah and obey me

And so for Muhammad, 26.192-196:
And lo! it is a revelation of the Lord of the Worlds, Which the True Spirit hath brought down Upon thy heart,
that thou mayst be (one) of the warners, In plain Arabic speech. And lo! it is in the Scriptures of the men of old.


Plainly all messengers should be obeyed (by their own folks), including Isa:
3.50: I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.
43.63: When Jesus came with clear proofs, he said: I have come unto you with wisdom, and to
make plain some of that concerning which ye differ. So keep your duty to Allah, and obey me.


43.2-4: By the Scripture (Al-Kitābi ) which maketh plain, Lo! We have appointed it a Lecture (Qur'ānāan), in Arabic that haply
ye may understand. And Lo! in the Source of Decrees (Ummi Al-Kitābi), which We possess, it is indeed sublime, decisive.


21.7-10:
And We sent not before thee other than men, whom We inspired. Ask the followers of the Reminder if ye know not?
We gave them not bodies that would not eat food, nor were they immortals....
Now We have revealed unto you a Scripture wherein is your Reminder....


2) Muhammad as a messenger
Muhammad was thus never commanded to invent a new religion, but to uphold the former true one, with some Arabic abrogations...

42.13: He hath ordained (Shara`a) for you that religion (Din) which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee,
and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein....


The Koran and the previous scriptures are altogether binding, although abrogated by the former.
http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/ ... bible.html
http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/onbible.htm
General entry
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Bible/index.html

My studies:
viewtopic.php?p=159297#p159297
The al-Kitab/al-Hikma notions
viewtopic.php?p=104171#p104171
Links
viewtopic.php?p=154203#p154203
Was the Bible corrupted?
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8273

3) The unwarranted special status given to Muhammad...
It's thus obvious that the tafsirs/hadiths had basically a two sided goal:

1) First to estrange the Koran from the previous scriptures as law-binding (5.5)
2) Superceding a law-carrier Muhammad by giving him an un-koranic imam status.

That's the hijacked context by which Muhammad has been elevated to an Islamic Messiah.

Although, many verses frontally object to this, like:
72.21: Say: Lo! I control not hurt nor benefit for you.
72.22: Say: Lo! none can protect me from Allah, nor can I find any refuge beside Him
72.23: (Mine is) but conveyance (of the Truth) from Allah, and His messages; and whoso
disobeyeth Allah and His messenger, lo! his is fire of hell, wherein such dwell for ever.


There can be no 'Obey the Messenger' without Jibril in the equation, the guarantor and seal of all messengers.

4) Finally, about 33.21 proper:
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/33/21/default.htm
Shakir: Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar
for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.


Stating that this refer to following the personal sunna of Muhammad is a misunderstanding aberration...
How could this possibly refer to how the prophet prayed or kissed the black stone in the hajj, for example?

Clearly the warring context of the preceding verses tell us that he was exemplary in the fortitude brought by his assurance in the 'last day',
which isn't earthly grounded at all, and then by keeping God close to his heart, from his remembrance, in times of adversity and troubles.

More on this 'Obey the Messenger'... (links)
viewtopic.php?p=129119#p129119
To Obey Allah is to Obey All of His Messengers
viewtopic.php?p=129485#p129485

Considering all the above, I've voted NO. Muhammad is never set by the Koran as an exemplary person.
Quite the opposite. In fact he's not ever even labeled as an Imam as were others (2.124; 21.73; 46.12).
Let alone the Islamic Messiah portrayed in the hadiths... by the Pharisees of Islam.

Re: Do you agree with Skynightblaze and Darth (33:21)?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:04 pm
by yeezevee
what is your point of all this
Spoiler! :
The Cat wrote:1. General considerations over the Koranic 'messengers'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_in_Islam

The Koran effectively states that it is in continuation of the other scriptures. In fact, the very word 'Koran' (as a distinctive book)
only appears from the chronological 38th sura, then 41th (36.2) and 42th (25.30). The very notion of Umm-al-Kitab (not umm-al-
Quran, 3.7; 13.39; 43.4, ie. the source of ordinance) indicates that all messengers/messages have a timely equal status...

Noah, 26.108: So keep your duty to Allah, and obey me.
Hud, 26.126: So keep your duty to Allah and obey me.
Salih, 26.150-51: Therefor keep your duty to Allah and obey me
Shu'eb, 26.179: So keep your duty to Allah and obey me

And so for Muhammad, 26.192-196:
And lo! it is a revelation of the Lord of the Worlds, Which the True Spirit hath brought down Upon thy heart,
that thou mayst be (one) of the warners, In plain Arabic speech. And lo! it is in the Scriptures of the men of old.


Plainly all messengers should be obeyed (by their own folks), including Isa:
3.50: I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.
43.63: When Jesus came with clear proofs, he said: I have come unto you with wisdom, and to
make plain some of that concerning which ye differ. So keep your duty to Allah, and obey me.


43.2-4: By the Scripture (Al-Kitābi ) which maketh plain, Lo! We have appointed it a Lecture (Qur'ānāan), in Arabic that haply
ye may understand. And Lo! in the Source of Decrees (Ummi Al-Kitābi), which We possess, it is indeed sublime, decisive.


21.7-10:
And We sent not before thee other than men, whom We inspired. Ask the followers of the Reminder if ye know not?
We gave them not bodies that would not eat food, nor were they immortals....
Now We have revealed unto you a Scripture wherein is your Reminder....


2) Muhammad as a messenger

Muhammad was thus never commanded to invent a new religion, but to uphold the former true one, with some Arabic abrogations...

Spoiler! :
42.13: He hath ordained (Shara`a) for you that religion (Din) which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee,
and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein....


The Koran and the previous scriptures are altogether binding, although abrogated by the former.
http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/ ... bible.html
http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/onbible.htm
General entry
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Bible/index.html

My studies:
viewtopic.php?p=159297#p159297
The al-Kitab/al-Hikma notions
viewtopic.php?p=104171#p104171
Links
viewtopic.php?p=154203#p154203
Was the Bible corrupted?
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8273

3) The unwarranted special status given to Muhammad...
It's thus obvious that the tafsirs/hadiths had basically a two sided goal:

1) First to estrange the Koran from the previous scriptures as law-binding (5.5)
2) Superceding a law-carrier Muhammad by giving him an un-koranic imam status.


That's the hijacked context by which Muhammad has been elevated to an Islamic Messiah.

Spoiler! :
Although, many verses frontally object to this, like:
72.21: Say: Lo! I control not hurt nor benefit for you.
72.22: Say: Lo! none can protect me from Allah, nor can I find any refuge beside Him
72.23: (Mine is) but conveyance (of the Truth) from Allah, and His messages; and whoso
disobeyeth Allah and His messenger, lo! his is fire of hell, wherein such dwell for ever.


There can be no 'Obey the Messenger' without Jibril in the equation, the guarantor and seal of all messengers.

4) Finally, about 33.21 proper:
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/33/21/default.htm
Shakir: Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar
for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.

Stating that this refer to following the personal sunna of Muhammad is a misunderstanding aberration...
How could this possibly refer to how the prophet prayed or kissed the black stone in the hajj, for example?

Spoiler! :
Clearly the warring context of the preceding verses tell us that he was exemplary in the fortitude brought by his assurance in the 'last day',
which isn't earthly grounded at all, and then by keeping God close to his heart, from his remembrance, in times of adversity and troubles.

More on this 'Obey the Messenger'... (links)
viewtopic.php?p=129119#p129119
To Obey Allah is to Obey All of His Messengers
viewtopic.php?p=129485#p129485


Considering all the above, I've voted NO. Muhammad is never set by the Koran as an exemplary person.
Quite the opposite. In fact he's not ever even labeled as an Imam as were others (2.124; 21.73; 46.12).
Spoiler! :
Let alone the Islamic Messiah portrayed in the hadiths... by the Pharisees of Islam.
and all those statements The Cat??

So according to you..

was/is Muhammad messenger of Allah or not?
did Allah reveal Quran to Muhammad or Not??
was there any person called Muhammad in early history of Islam?? or whole thing is made up by some juice??


You said..
''As a fitting pinushment for all his heinous crimes against women, ia was a Jewish woman whoi poisoned him in her rightful quest for revenge after the battle of Khaybar. During the last four years of his life, his health declined, epileptic fits became more frequent and his other infirmities increased. After living a life of rape, perversion, destruction and plunder, at age 62, Mohammed gasped his last breath on the lap of his 17 year old child bride Ayesha who watched him die a slow, long ang horrible death'

Ten stick with your stinky false prophet never named apostle by Jesus. You think like a Muslim. You understood nothing. You're blinded by your own reflections. Nothing you brought forth worth a counter argument.

''There is no God but Allah and the sword (of Mohammad) is His prophet''.

Islam : is it a religion ?
The Bible itself has no word we could translate with our notion of a religion. The closest in there would be ''the Fear of God''. It is usually understood that a religion has a spiritual task, spirituality aiming to free the individual from the materialistic bounds. Does Islam has a spiritual compound ? I don't think so, except in its heretical sufism form.

Does a bunch of rituals make a mouvement religious ? These are exterior manifestations only to be akin to a religion when they symbolize a certain spiritual atonement. Islam isn't a religion, but a dividing cult from the pastoral notion of the ''Holy Chosen Cattle'', promising a golden future paradisiacal pasture in Heaven. It is centered around submission and not around a spiritual liberation or enlightenment.

When we look at all pastural (or Semitic) so-called religion, we find that their basic principle is very much like the way we use to domesticate, or tame, animals in order to make them obey. Thus they are some kind of a mind domestication aiming at the very political world domination. It sounds more like a sect, a spiritual heresy, than something related to a true religion. TO OBEY AND SUBMIT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SPIRITUALITY. The ''Laws of God'' are flawned from the first...

So what is our next goal The Cat??

Is it to prove to Muslim and ffi readers that[b] Islam is nothing but bunch of rules from Allah and they are all good for Muslims non-Muslims?? [/b]

Re: Do you agree with Skynightblaze and Darth (33:21)?

PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:18 am
by MesMorial
Full rebuttal:

http://uploading.com/files/md13f8ea/A%2 ... anual.doc/


It takes Sunni arguments to pieces and "redefines" Islam.

Re: Do you agree with Skynightblaze and Darth (33:21)?

PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:55 pm
by yeezevee
MesMorial wrote:Full rebuttal:

http://uploading.com/files/md13f8ea/A%2 ... anual.doc/


It takes Sunni arguments to pieces and "redefines" Islam.
rebuttal to who? rebuttal to what MesMorial? so who is the author of that 246 pages of Microsoft word manual on Quran? I am sure you guys know Quran is more than 600 pages.. It appears some guys selectively taken verses here and there and put together a little booklet..

Anyway I will read through it.. Can I RIP IT??? lol..

with best
yeezevee

Re: Do you agree with Skynightblaze and Darth (33:21)?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:47 am
by MesMorial
yeezevee wrote:
MesMorial wrote:Full rebuttal:

http://uploading.com/files/md13f8ea/A%2 ... anual.doc/


It takes Sunni arguments to pieces and "redefines" Islam.
rebuttal to who? rebuttal to what MesMorial? so who is the author of that 246 pages of Microsoft word manual on Quran? I am sure you guys know Quran is more than 600 pages.. It appears some guys selectively taken verses here and there and put together a little booklet..

Anyway I will read through it.. Can I RIP IT??? lol..

with best
yeezevee


A rebuttal to people who say the Qur'an allows ahadith and is insufficient for Islam (alone).

I compiled it and wrote most of it, though as you say, it simply uses Qur'anic verses.

You can rip it if you like, and if you have any problems/suggestions, do let me know.

Cheers

Re: Do you agree with Skynightblaze and Darth (33:21)?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:32 pm
by MesMorial
An interesting and predictable poll result.

Now I challenge somebody to explain their conclusion.

Re: Do you agree with Skynightblaze and Darth (33:21)?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:10 pm
by yeezevee
MesMorial wrote:An interesting and predictable poll result.

Now I challenge somebody to explain their conclusion.

What poll are you talking "MesMorial"?? 9 people poll.. that is ridiculous..

Yes.. Good to watch this..



Schizophrenia and mental diseases explains lot of Islam and Islamic scriptures Mesmorial..






We don't need to become mental because we are trying to treat the disease

with best wishes
yeezevee

Re: Do you agree with Skynightblaze and Darth (33:21)?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:26 am
by MesMorial
Who said anything about becoming mental? If anything is mental, it is probably the poll-result.

Do you agree with Skynightblaze and Darth 33 21

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:26 pm
by AlexmenCorn
lol Well, I guess that makes me a bad mod since I voted 4. I think the friendliness here is amazing but once in a while you do meet up with that member who is just not having a good day.

Re: Do you agree with Skynightblaze and Darth 33 21

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:35 pm
by Fernando
AlexmenCorn wrote:lol Well, I guess that makes me a bad mod since I voted 4. I think the friendliness here is amazing but once in a while you do meet up with that member who is just not having a good day.
How can you have voted, when the poll ended four years before you joined the forum?