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Australian / Indonesian Cattle Trade

Australian / Indonesian Cattle Trade

Postby Wootah » Tue May 31, 2011 1:31 am

http://www.abc.net.au/iview/#/program/775504

Islamic slaughtering of animals is disgusting. Jump to 14 minutes for a disturbing rest of your day.
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Re: Australian / Indonesian Cattle Trade

Postby Multiple » Tue May 31, 2011 4:57 am

This is just Halal slaughter its done by Muslims AND Jews all over the world, in civilized countries its done a bit more hygenically but the method is still the same. So if the Country you live in licenses halal butchers this is what is going on.
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Re: Australian / Indonesian Cattle Trade

Postby Sten » Tue May 31, 2011 9:15 am

In the supermarket the other day I overheard a Jewish lady talking to her friend about how Kosher slaughter was more humane than regular slaughter "because the knife is so sharp". It's amazing that people are able to force themselves to believe this baloney, since when was it painless to be cut by any kind of knife? Anyone who has accidentally sliced their fingers while chopping vegetables can testify that being cut is extremely painful. For an animal to have its throat sliced open and to die fully conscious, is just primative barbarism. It's not quick and painless, it takes them over a minute to die, and the anguished, gurgling sounds they make from their sliced throat makes me angry at the whole industry and anyone who supports it.

It depresses me how wilfully ignorant people can be.
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Re: Australian / Indonesian Cattle Trade

Postby CuteCoot » Tue May 31, 2011 10:13 pm

Sten wrote:Kosher slaughter was more humane than regular slaughter

To be fair, it should be acknowledged that kosher and halal slaughter were indeed - for many centuries - more respectful to animals and in some ways they still are. They hold the life precious enough to feel they need to pray while taking it. There is something cold about modern slaughter techniques that isn't nice either.

And a sharp knife is definitely better than a blunt one.
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Re: Australian / Indonesian Cattle Trade

Postby StrongLove » Tue May 31, 2011 11:41 pm

CuteCoot wrote:
Sten wrote:Kosher slaughter was more humane than regular slaughter

To be fair, it should be acknowledged that kosher and halal slaughter were indeed - for many centuries - more respectful to animals and in some ways they still are. They hold the life precious enough to feel they need to pray while taking it. There is something cold about modern slaughter techniques that isn't nice either.

And a sharp knife is definitely better than a blunt one.


What? That has nothing to do with cruelty today. What are you thinking? The animal doesn't even know what the hell they are doing! The least pain the better. That's it. That's all that matters to the animal or anyone who cares about them.
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Re: Australian / Indonesian Cattle Trade

Postby Wootah » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:47 am

CuteCoot wrote:
Sten wrote:Kosher slaughter was more humane than regular slaughter

To be fair, it should be acknowledged that kosher and halal slaughter were indeed - for many centuries - more respectful to animals and in some ways they still are. They hold the life precious enough to feel they need to pray while taking it. There is something cold about modern slaughter techniques that isn't nice either.

And a sharp knife is definitely better than a blunt one.


So by that logic suicide bombers who are praying when they blow you up are being more humane?
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Re: Australian / Indonesian Cattle Trade

Postby CuteCoot » Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:23 am

StrongLove wrote:The least pain the better.

Then how come wild life program makers don't intervene when a lion so cruelly kills a deer? The way komodo dragons kill buffalo is appalling. They quickly inject a poison that takes days to debilitate the animal enough so a pack of dragons can attack it. I watched all the grisly details on a wild life program (probably with the loveable David Attenborough explaining it all). So why don't all of you bleeding hearts get out there into the natural world and do something about all the pain and suffering going on there every moment of every day?

Back when kosher and halal methods of slaughter were developed they were relatively humane. I would prefer the cattle were slaughtered with less pain and anxiety as they can be today but I do recognise a humane basis to the traditional methods.

As for the prayers, they do benefit the animals in the long run as their deaths are not taken for granted. Similar customs are widespread among humanity. Human beings everywhere have devised ways to say "thank you" to an animal killed for human food and this is better than doing it neatly but without gratitude.
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Re: Australian / Indonesian Cattle Trade

Postby CuteCoot » Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:25 am

Wootah wrote:So by that logic suicide bombers who are praying when they blow you up are being more humane?

As far as I know, suicide bombers never pray in gratitude to the victims sacrificed to their cause.
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Re: Australian / Indonesian Cattle Trade

Postby StrongLove » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:28 am

CuteCoot wrote:
StrongLove wrote:The least pain the better.

Then how come wild life program makers don't intervene when a lion so cruelly kills a deer? The way komodo dragons kill buffalo is appalling. They quickly inject a poison that takes days to debilitate the animal enough so a pack of dragons can attack it. I watched all the grisly details on a wild life program (probably with the loveable David Attenborough explaining it all). So why don't all of you bleeding hearts get out there into the natural world and do something about all the pain and suffering going on there every moment of every day?


We do not control nature. We are not responsible for natural predation. Animals do not have a choice, tools or planing. Your reasoning is deeply flawed.


Back when kosher and halal methods of slaughter were developed they were relatively humane. I would prefer the cattle were slaughtered with less pain and anxiety as they can be today but I do recognise a humane basis to the traditional methods.


There is no "humane basis" for ritualistic slaughter. It was done to make it "clean" or "pure".

As for the prayers, they do benefit the animals in the long run as their deaths are not taken for granted. Similar customs are widespread among humanity. Human beings everywhere have devised ways to say "thank you" to an animal killed for human food and this is better than doing it neatly but without gratitude.



You could sing "Tip toe through The Tulips" for all the animals care. It does NOTHING to reduce their pain or suffering.
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Re: Australian / Indonesian Cattle Trade

Postby CuteCoot » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:12 am

StrongLove wrote:You could sing "Tip toe through The Tulips" for all the animals care.

Look, I just presented the other side of the story. You don't want to buy it, so be it.
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Re: Australian / Indonesian Cattle Trade

Postby Multiple » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:23 am

CuteCoot wrote:
StrongLove wrote:You could sing "Tip toe through The Tulips" for all the animals care.

Look, I just presented the other side of the story. You don't want to buy it, so be it.

The trouble with you Coot is that your so called 'other side of the story ' is stupidity.
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Re: Australian / Indonesian Cattle Trade

Postby Sten » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:00 pm

CuteCoot wrote:
StrongLove wrote:You could sing "Tip toe through The Tulips" for all the animals care.

Look, I just presented the other side of the story. You don't want to buy it, so be it.


Do you really believe what you said here or are you just being devils advocate?
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Re: Australian / Indonesian Cattle Trade

Postby CuteCoot » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:33 pm

Sten wrote:Do you really believe what you said here or are you just being devils advocate?

I am genuinely able to see the other side of the story. I really do understand the need for prayers and the need for a sharp knife. I very much doubt that either was happening in the video shown on the ABC. There was no sincere gratitude for the food obtained from taking the animal's life and no discipline in keeping the knives sharp.

If it was up to me animals would be slaughtered with respect (whether through prayers or some other gesture) and through the best modern techniques to avoid pain and distress. All I'm pointing out here is that until maybe a century or so ago throat slitting with a sharp knife was the best modern technique of the time. Because it was traditional and tied up with religious ritual it has been hard to disentangle all that so that a better technique can be used.

Both kosher and halal slaughter were, in their day, the best way to do it and, even today, it isn't so bad as long as it's done right.

This issue, for me, resembles the circumcision issue. I'd rather baby boys were not circumcised but I'm not too fussed about it so long as it is done right, with respect and surgical care. I'm more concerned to see little girls spared the clearly more painful and more debilitating operation routinely done in African and ME countries. I can see no merit whatsoever in this cruel practice. In this case, I see no "other side to the story" but in the other cases, I can see it. Really.
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Re: Australian / Indonesian Cattle Trade

Postby Wootah » Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:32 am

I would love to see footage of an abattoir that does Islamic animal slaughtering 'right'.
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Re: Australian / Indonesian Cattle Trade

Postby Multiple » Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:41 am

CuteCoot wrote:
Sten wrote:Do you really believe what you said here or are you just being devils advocate?

I am genuinely able to see the other side of the story. I really do understand the need for prayers and the need for a sharp knife. I very much doubt that either was happening in the video shown on the ABC. There was no sincere gratitude for the food obtained from taking the animal's life and no discipline in keeping the knives sharp.

If it was up to me animals would be slaughtered with respect (whether through prayers or some other gesture) and through the best modern techniques to avoid pain and distress. All I'm pointing out here is that until maybe a century or so ago throat slitting with a sharp knife was the best modern technique of the time. Because it was traditional and tied up with religious ritual it has been hard to disentangle all that so that a better technique can be used.

Both kosher and halal slaughter were, in their day, the best way to do it and, even today, it isn't so bad as long as it's done right.

This issue, for me, resembles the circumcision issue. I'd rather baby boys were not circumcised but I'm not too fussed about it so long as it is done right, with respect and surgical care. I'm more concerned to see little girls spared the clearly more painful and more debilitating operation routinely done in African and ME countries. I can see no merit whatsoever in this cruel practice. In this case, I see no "other side to the story" but in the other cases, I can see it. Really.


So just who are the prayers for Coot the animals thats absurd the animals have no understanding of human religions, for yourself well thats absurd too because if you dislike what you do so much you dont have to do it. For HYPOCRISY's sake yes I think that is it you say a HYPOCRITICAL prayer to no one for nothing. Tell us Coot do animals actually appreciate and understand RESPECT I think not its all just self serving HYPOCRISY and a sharp knife is no antidote to compassionate stunning.
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