Hanan VS Dr. Mahathir
68 posts • Page 3 of 4 • 1, 2, 3, 4
Re: Hanan VS Dr. Mahathir
You relying on a Palestinian words, then accept that according to Palesitnians you are invaders and have transgressed against God by not accepting the the last Prophet of God and recognizing that Jerusalem is third holiest site of Islam.
Re: Hanan VS Dr. Mahathir
I relying it is every islamist wishful thinking  "those who wish to wipe out the Jewish people must not expect us to identify with their symbols and centers of incitement" MK Michael Ben-Ari (National Union)
Faith Freedom International
Re: Hanan VS Dr. Mahathir
to tahir56
1. and what the bible claims or the talmud claims is not one and the same. 3.Ariel Sharon has not died. burning the death is not Judaic ritual. 4. wikipedia. 6.peace Nobel prizes IMO is a category which should not have be existed. despite Begin made peace with Egypt, you object he should have received it for his past terrorist acts. I'm frustrated from Arafat to gain Nobel prize who not only deceived people to believe his road to peace sincere, but he also never have left terrorism. 2.do post these pictures that verifies genocide been committed by IDF. to remind you the definition of genocide Britannica Concise Encyclopedia link to the newspaper reported about will be appreciated. "those who wish to wipe out the Jewish people must not expect us to identify with their symbols and centers of incitement" MK Michael Ben-Ari (National Union)
Faith Freedom International
Re: Hanan VS Dr. Mahathir
what I meant by "good point about Serbia's massacre of Muslims." as attachment to what I wrote earlier. "why not about darfur, sudan... etc." iow; why not about darfur, sudan, Serbia's massacre of Muslims... "those who wish to wipe out the Jewish people must not expect us to identify with their symbols and centers of incitement" MK Michael Ben-Ari (National Union)
Faith Freedom International
Re: Hanan VS Dr. Mahathir
That will give Israel the excuse to massacre Gazain because Hamas "are not truthful, when they enter into agreement.........they break it.....that's it " Israel quote this to the UN, if they asked about human right, tell them it is the Muhammad's way and confirm to be OK by ex-Malaysian PM Dr Mahathir a Muslim. They break the agreement, per their prophet's way, they can be massacre. PERIOD
Re: Hanan VS Dr. Mahathir
the debate is now downright to eliminating jews and many are quoting adolph Hitler's phrases and sayings.
Malays, they are total slaves to Mohamutt. See what is the effect of Islam on Mohammedans!!!!!!! /Islam. I am the chill in the air.
Re: Hanan VS Dr. Mahathir
and inventing phrases for Hitler. with same breath preaching about human compassion. "those who wish to wipe out the Jewish people must not expect us to identify with their symbols and centers of incitement" MK Michael Ben-Ari (National Union)
Faith Freedom International
Re: Hanan VS Dr. Mahathir
By Hanan on February 22, 2009 6:15 AM
Dear Dr. Mahathir, Salam Alaikum, Shalom and Grace – שלום וברכה. As I promised, I’m back with my views about the issues you raised. No matter what are the arguments we have, I’m satisfied just for the fact that we have a cyber dialog than “shooting” each other. This is much more meaningful. It is probably very hard to convince each other, but I’m optimistic that we are on a way for a better future. Before I’ll step into the depth of my comments, I would like to have a small preface. I think we (Palestinians and Israelis) must try to make are compromising efforts in a positive approach instead a negative approach. This means that every side should think in terms “what can I give to the other side in order to achieve peace” instead “what can I get form the other side to live in peace”. This is a kind of thinking out of the box. This approach was never tried. Why is the approach so different? What means to give something to the other side? It means that you are generous. It means you want to forgive. It means you burry hatred and has sympathy to the other side. It happens exactly when someone is donating. Everyone likes to donate more than being the one who gets the donation. Let’s try to give presents instead grabbing them. This can build a mutual “chemistry” during the negotiations that can ease the way for a solution. To make that happen it is required to be even braver than deciding upon war. I know that it is against the herd logic and like swimming against the stream. Maybe it is even naive and some may think it is a total stupidity. On the other hand nobody can proof any results with a negative approach. Dear Dr. Mahathir, It will be interesting to know what you think about the “positive approach” of compromising. Maybe you had some experience in such similar cases during your many years of experience in politics. ================================================================================================================ Here are my comments about the issues you raised in your last post (your text is added as an easy reference to have it on hand): 1. I think I cannot convince you on anything simply because your perception of things is not based on logic or reason but merely on your strong belief that you are always right, even if the whole world says you are wrong. • Hanan: Dear Dr. Mahathir, I’m the first person to admit if I’m wrong. I already did it a few times during my “short” life. But for that I need to understand that I’m wrong. Such an understanding is not a kind of convincing by someone from outside but a self-convincing action. I’m really reading deeply what you are writing, internalizing the information whatever it is, “doing my homework” and trying to understand you. At least we both are investing the time to read each other’s comments which is a huge step forward. Dear Dr. Mahathir, on the other hand it is hard to convince you about the simple rights of Jews to have their own independent state on the land that was belonging them thousands years ago. Why should Muslims have so many independent Islamic republic and kingdoms and a single independent Jewish state on such small area is a big deal? ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 2. Jews have lived with Muslims in Muslim countries for centuries without any serious problem. • Hanan: May be it is true but not 100% of all the facts. Yes, in some cases Jewish life flourished under Muslim governing, but it was centuries ago at the beginning of Islam and during its spreading. Let me provide some Jewish life under Muslims governing and among Muslims. Living of Jews in Muslim countries must not be related to the Israeli-Palestinian problem; not by time and not by location. This is according to what Muslims claim as their justice and fairness to minorities including Jews. Here is a “brief” summary about the problems/riots against Jews in different countries which I collected to enlighten the knowledge of all: Syria – Jews have lived in this land since biblical times and the community’s history is intertwined with the history of Jews in the land of Israel. Jewish population increased significantly after the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492. Throughout the generations, the main Jewish communities were to be found in Damascus and Aleppo. In 1943, the Jewish community of Syria had 30,000 members. This population was mainly distributed between Aleppo, where 17,000 Jews lived and Damascus, which had a Jewish population of 11,000. In 1945, in an attempt to thwart efforts to establish a Jewish homeland, the government restricted emigration to Israel, and Jewish property was burned and looted. Anti-Jewish pogroms erupted in Aleppo in 1947, stimulating 7,000 of the town’s 10,000 Jews to flee in terror. The government then froze Jewish bank accounts and confiscated their property. Shortly after the founding of Israel, as reported in the New York Times on May 16, 1948: “In Syria a policy of economic discrimination is in effect against Jews. ‘Virtually all’ Jewish civil servants in the employ of the Syrian Government have been discharged. Freedom of movement has been ‘practically abolished.’ Special frontier posts have been established to control movements of Jews.” In 1949, banks were instructed to freeze the accounts of Jews and all their assets were expropriated. Over the course of subsequent tears, the continuing pattern of political and economic strangulation ultimately caused a total of 15,000 Jews to leave Syria, 10,000 of which emigrated to the U.S.A. and another 5,000 to Israel. Iraq – In June 1941, the Mufti-inspired, pro-Nazi coup of Rashid Ali sparked rioting and a pogrom in Baghdad. Armed Iraqi mobs murdered 180 Jews and wounded almost 1,000. Additional outbreaks of anti-Jewish rioting occurred between 1946-1949. After the establishment of Israel in 1948, Zionism became a capital crime. In 1950, Iraqi Jews were permitted to leave the country within a year provided they forfeited their citizenship. A year later, however, the property of Jews who emigrated was frozen and economic restrictions were placed on Jews who chose to remain in the country. From 1949 to 1951, 104,000 Jews were evacuated from Iraq in Operations Ezra and Nehemiah; another 20,000 were smuggled out through Iran. Thus a community that had reached a peak of some 150,000 in 1947 dwindled to a mere 6,000 after 1951. In 1952, Iraq’s government barred Jews from emigrating. With the rise of competing Ba’ath factions in 1963, additional restrictions were placed on the remaining Iraqi Jews. The sale of property was forbidden and all Jews were forced to carry yellow identity cards. Persecutions continued, especially after the Six-Day War in 1967, when many of the remaining 3,000 Jews were arrested and dismissed from their jobs. Around that period, more repressive measures were imposed: Jewish property was expropriated; Jewish bank accounts were frozen; Jews were dismissed from public posts; businesses were shut; trading permits were cancelled; telephones were disconnected. Jews were placed under house arrest for long periods of time or restricted to the cities. Persecution was at its worst at the end of 1968. Scores were jailed upon the discovery of an alleged local “spy ring” composed of Jewish businessmen. Fourteen men-eleven of them Jews-were sentenced to death in staged trials and, on January 27, 1969, were hanged in the public squares of Baghdad; others died of torture (Judith Miller and Laurie Mylroie, “Saddam Hussein and the Crisis in the Gulf”, p. 34). In response to international pressure, the Baghdad government quietly allowed most of the remaining Jews to emigrate in the early 1970’s, even while leaving other restrictions in force. In 1973, most of Iraq’s remaining Jews were too old to leave and they were pressured by the government to turn over title, without compensation, to more than $200 million worth of Jewish community property (New York Times, February 18, 1973). Today, approximately 61 Jews are left in Baghdad. A once flourishing Jewish community in Iraq has thus been extinguished (Associated Press, March 28, 1998). Discriminatory Decrees and Violations of Human Rights (Intended merely as a sampling and not an exhaustive compilation) The first piece of legislation enacted that violated the rights of Jews was the 1948 amendment 12 to the 1938 supplement 13 to the Penal Code of Baghdad. The Baghdad Penal Code set out the provision regarding communism, anarchy and immorality in section 89A(1). The section generally prohibits the publication of anything that incites the spread of hatred, abuse of the government or the integrity of the people. This amendment, enacted in 1948, added “Zionism” to communism, anarchism and immorality, the propagation of which constituted an offence punishable by seven years imprisonment and/or a fine. In an article that appeared in the New York Times on May 16, 1948, it was reported that: “In Iraq no Jew is permitted to leave the country unless he deposits £5,000 ($20,000) with the Government to guarantee his return. No foreign Jew is allowed to enter Iraq even in transit.” Law No. 1 of 1950, entitled “Supplement to Ordinance Cancelling Iraqi Nationality,” in fact deprived Jews of their Iraqi nationality. Section 1 stipulated that “the Council of Ministers may cancel the Iraqi nationality of the Iraqi Jew who willingly desires to leave Iraq...” (official Iraqi English translation). Law No. 5 of 1951 entitled “A law for the Supervision and Administration of the Property of Jews who have Forfeited Iraqi Nationality” also deprived them of their property. Section 2(a) “freezes” Jewish property. There were a series of laws that subsequently expanded on the confiscation of assets and property of Jews who “forfeited Iraqi nationality”. These included Law No. 12 of 1951 16 and the attached Law No. 64 of 1967 (relating to ownership of shares in commercial companies) and Law No. 10 of 1968 (relating to banking restrictions). Libya- The establishment of the State of Israel led many Jews to leave the country. In June 1948, protesting the founding of the Jewish state, rioters murdered another 12 Jews and destroyed 280 Jewish homes. Although emigration was illegal, more than 3,000 Jews succeeded to leave to Israel. When the British legalized emigration in 1949, and in the years immediately preceding Libyan independence in 1951, hostile demonstrations and riots against Jews brought about the departure of some 30,000 Jews who fled the country up to, and after the point when Libya was granted independence and membership in the Arab League in 1951 (Norman Stillman, The Jews of Arab Lands in Modern Times). Egypt- In the 1940’s, with the rise of Egyptian nationalism and the Zionist movement’s efforts to create a Jewish homeland in adjoining Israel, anti-Jewish activities began in earnest. In 1945, riots erupted – ten Jews were killed; 350 injured, and a synagogue, a Jewish hospital, and an old-age home were burned down. After the success of the Zionist movement in establishing the State of Israel, between June and November of 1948, violence and repressive measures by the Government and Egyptians began in earnest. Bombs were set off in the Jewish Quarter, killing more than 70 Jews and wounded nearly 200. Rioting over the next few months resulted in many more Jewish deaths. 2,000 Jews were arrested and many had their property confiscated. In 1956, the Egyptian government used the Sinai Campaign as a pretext to order almost 25,000 Egyptian Jews to leave the country and confiscated their property. They were allowed to take only one suitcase and a small sum of cash, and forced to sign declarations “donating” their property to the Egyptian government. Approximately 1,000 more Jews were sent to prisons and detention camps. On November 23, 1956, a proclamation signed by the Minister of Religious Affairs, and read aloud in mosques throughout Egypt, declared that “all Jews are Zionists and enemies of the state,” and promised that they would be soon expelled (AP, November 26 and 29 1956; New York World Telegram). By 1957, the Jewish population of Egypt had fallen to 15,000. In 1967, after the Six-Day War, there was a renewed wave of persecution, and the community dropped to 2,500. By the 1970s, after the remaining Jews were given permission to leave the country, the community dwindled to a few families. Jewish rights were finally restored in 1979 after President Anwar Sadat signed the Camp David Accords with Israel. Only then was the community allowed to establish ties with Israel and with world Jewry. Nearly all the estimated 200 Jews left in Egypt are elderly and the once proud and flourishing Jewish community is on the verge of extinction. Discriminatory Decrees and Violations of Human Rights (Intended merely as a sampling and not an exhaustive compilation) The first Nationality Code was promulgated by Egypt on May 26, 1926. Entitled to Egyptian nationality were only those who “belonged racially to the majority of the population of a country whose language is Arabic or whose religion is Islam.” This provision served as the official pretext for expelling many Jews from Egypt. On July 29, 1947, an amendment was introduced to the Egyptian Companies Law which made it mandatory for at least 75% of the administrative employees of a company to be Egyptian nationals and 90% of employees in general. This resulted in the dismissal and loss of livelihood for many Jews since only 15% of them had been granted Egyptian citizenship. A mass departure of Jews was sparked when Egypt passed an amendment in 1956 to the original Egyptian Nationality Law of 1926. Article 1 of the Law of November 22, 1956, stipulated that “Zionists” were barred from being Egyptian nationals. Article 18 of the 1956 law asserted that “Egyptian nationality may be declared forfeited by order of the Ministry of Interior in the case of persons classified as Zionists.” Moreover, the term “Zionist” was never defined, leaving Egyptian authorities free to interpret as broadly as they pleased. Provision both in the 1956 and 1958 laws permitted the government to take away citizenship of any Egyptian Jew absent from UAR territory for more than six consecutive months. That this provision is aimed exclusively at Jews is shown by the fact that the lists of denaturalized persons published time and again by the Official Journal contains Jewish names only, despite the fact that there were many non-Jewish Egyptians who stayed abroad for over six months. Economic Discrimination and Strangulation (Intended as a sampling and not an exhaustive compilation) Law No. 26 of 1952 obligated all corporations to employ certain prescribed percentages of “Egyptians.” A great number of Jewish salaried employees lost their jobs, and could not obtain similar ones, because they did not belong to the category of Jews with Egyptian nationality. Between November 1-20 1956, official records reveal that by a series of sequestration orders issued under Military Proclamation No. 4, the property of many hundreds of Jews in Egypt was taken from their owners and turned over to Egyptian administrators. Proclamation No. 4 was carried into effect almost exclusively against Jews; and though a number of Copts and Moslems were also interned, their assets were never sequestered. Of the published lists of 486 persons and firms whose properties were seized under Military Proclamation No. 4, at least 95 per cent of them are Jews. The names of persons and firms affected by this measure represented the bulk of the economic substance of Egyptian Jewry, the largest and most important enterprises and the main sustenance, through voluntary contributions, of Jewish religious, educational, social and welfare institutions in Egypt. In addition to the vast sequestration of property and other discriminatory treatment, Directive No. 189 issued under the authority of Military Proclamation No. 4, authorized the Director General of the Sequestering Agency to deduct from the assets belonging to interned persons, 10% of the value of the sequestered property, presumably to cover the costs of administration. Hence, without regard to the question of whether a property is legally sequestered, the Jews of Egypt were being taxed to pay for the machinery or improper sequestration and withholding. The Jews leaving Egypt were subjected to additional deprivations and inconveniences. A regulation was established which only authorized Jews leaving Egypt to take with them travellers checks or other international exchange documents up to a value of 100 pounds sterling per capita. The Bank of Egypt provided Jews leaving the country with instruments specifically drawn on Egyptian accounts in Britain and France, when Egyptian authorities knew well that those accounts were blocked in reciprocation for the Egyptian blocking of British and French assets in Egypt and was not freely negotiable abroad. Morocco- By 1948, this ancient Jewish community, the largest in North Africa, numbered 265,000. In June 1948, after the establishment of the State of Israel, bloody riots in Oujda and Djerada killed 44 Jews and wounded scores more. That same year, an unofficial economic boycott was instigated against Moroccan Jews. Immigration to Israel started upon the initiative of small groups who arrived at the time of Israel’s independence. However, the waves of mass immigration, which brought a total of more than 250,000 Moroccan Jews to Israel, were prompted by anti-Jewish measures carried out in response to the establishment of the State of Israel. On June 4, 1949, riots broke out in northern Morocco killing and injuring dozens of Jews. Shortly afterwards, the Jews began to leave. During the two-year period between 1955 and 1957 alone, over 70,000 Moroccan Jews arrived in Israel. In 1956, Morocco declared its independence, Jewish immigration to Israel was suspended and by 1959, Zionist activities became illegal in Morocco. During these years more than 30,000 Jews left for France and the Americas. In 1963, the ban on emigration to Israel was lifted bringing another 100,000 to her shores. Today, the Jewish community of Morocco has dwindled to about 2% of its original size. Of the 17,000 Jews that remain, two-thirds live in Casablanca. Algeria- In 1934, Muslims incited by events in Nazi Germany, rampaged in Constantine killing 25 Jews and injuring many more. Before 1962, there were 60 Jewish communities, each maintaining their own rabbis, synagogues and educational institutions. After being granted independence in 1962, the Algerian government harassed the Jewish community and deprived Jews of their economic rights. As a result, almost 130,000 Algerian Jews immigrated to France and, since 1948, 25,681 Algerian Jews have immigrated to Israel. Algeria's independence from France was the key event in the final uprooting of the Jewish community. As a result of the desire of Algeria and Algerians to join in the wave of Pan-Arab nationalism that was sweeping North Africa, Jews no longer felt welcome after the French departure. The Algerian Nationality Code of 1963 made this clear by granting Algerian nationality as a right only to those inhabitants whose fathers and paternal grandfathers had Muslim personal status in Algeria. 24 In other words, although the National Liberation Front in Algeria was known for its slogan "A Democratic Secular State"; it adhered to strictly religious criteria in granting nationality, thereby entrenching anti-Israel and anti-Jewish bias in the country. Tunisia- The first documented evidence of Jews living in what is today Tunisia dates back to 200 CE. After the Arab conquest of Tunisia in the 7th century, Jews lived under satisfactory conditions, despite discriminatory measures such as a poll tax. In 1948, the Tunisian Jewish community had numbered 105,000, with 65,000 living in Tunis alone. After Tunisia gained independence in 1956, a series of anti-Jewish government decrees were promulgated. In 1958, Tunisia’s Jewish Community Council was abolished by the government and ancient synagogues, cemeteries and Jewish quarters were destroyed for “urban renewal.” Similar to the conditions for Jews in Algeria, the rise of Tunisian nationalism led to anti-Jewish legislation and in 1961 caused Jews to leave in great numbers. The increasingly unstable situation caused more than 40,000 Tunisian Jews to immigrate to Israel. By 1967, the country’s Jewish population had shrunk to 20,000. During the six-day war, Jews were attacked by rioting Arab mobs, and synagogues and shops were burned. The government denounced the violence and appealed to the Jewish population to stay, but did not bar them from leaving. Subsequently, 7,000 Jews immigrated to France. Even as late as 1982, there were attacks on Jews in the towns of Zarzis and Ben Guardane. Today an estimated 2,000 Jews remain in Tunisia. Yemen- The Jews of Yemen have various legends relating to their coming to that country, the most wide-spread of which states that they arrived there before the destruction of the First Temple (587 BCE). The first historical evidence of their existence in Yemen dates from the third century. Jews had begun to leave Yemen in the 1880s, when some 2,500 had made their way to Jerusalem and Jaffa. But it was after World War I, when Yemen became independent, that anti-Jewish feeling in that country made emigration imperative. Anti-Semitic laws, which had lain dormant for years were revived (e.g. Jews were not permitted to walk on pavements – or to ride horses). In court, a Jew’s evidence was not accepted against that of a Moslem. In 1922, the government of Yemen reintroduced an ancient Islamic law requiring that Jewish orphans under age 12 be forcibly converted to Islam. When a Jew decided to emigrate, he had to leave all his property. In spite of this, between 1923 and 1945 a total of 17,000 Yemenite Jews left and immigrated to Palestine. After the Second World War, thousands of more Yemenite Jews wanted to come to Palestine, but the British Mandate’s White Paper was still in force and those who left Yemen ended up in crowded slums in Aden, where serious riots broke out in 1947 after the United Nations decided on partition. Many Jews were killed, and the Jewish quarter was burned to the ground. It was not until September 1948 that the British authorities in Aden allowed the refugees to proceed to Israel. In 1947, after the partition vote, Muslim rioters engaged in a bloody pogrom in Aden that killed 82 Jews and destroyed hundreds of Jewish homes. The Jewish community of Aden, numbering 8,000 in 1948, was forced to flee. By 1959 over 3,000 arrived in Israel. Many fled to the U.S.A. and England. Today there are no Jews left in Aden. Around the time of Israel’s founding, Yemen’s Jewish community was economically paralyzed, as most of the Jewish stores and businesses were destroyed. This increasingly perilous situation led to the emigration of virtually the entire Yemenite Jewish community - almost 50,000 - between June 1949 and September 1950 in Operation “Magic Carpet.” A smaller, continuous migration was allowed to continue into 1962, when a civil war put an abrupt halt to any further Jewish exodus. It is another example of the displacement of an entire Jewish community from its ancient roots in the Arab countries. It is estimated, there are about 1,000 Jews in Yemen today. They are held as hostages, and are kept in dire conditions and not allowed to leave. Dear Dr. Mahathir, as an intelligent, educated and experienced persona, can you justify the actions above that were against Jews? Those few facts are proving that the conflict is Islam-Jewish while using the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as an excuse to mask the religious conflict. I must admit I couldn’t find much about the Jewish community in Malaysia. As far as I know, that community disappeared in the late 60’s after the independence of Malaysia (Hari Merdeka). I really don’t know why the Jews left Malaysia. Why did they immigrate to Singapore? It is really a mystery for me. I’ll be very glad if you can provide me (privately if you like) some more information from your knowledge and documents you have been exposed to during your service as PM. Do you think that Muslims are discriminated under the Zionist governing? Are the Israeli Arabs discriminated more that the minorities in Malaysia under the NEP and quota. Why should a Malaysian Chinese pay full price for some assets while the Malay (Muslims) has a discount? Why should a Chinese student spend a fortune to study in Singapore, Australia, England or US while the Malay students have their privilege to study in the country universities under the quota law? In Israel we don’t have that discrimination however we still need to improve. Why a Zionist hospital that was build from Zionist donation, established a Mosque for the Muslim patients and visitors? Zionists are the Arabs and Palestinians enemy, then how can it be? We don’t have the Dhimmi for our “second class” minorities like Muslims tend to have in history. Is this proving that Zionism equals racism? Believe me that Israeli Arabs are living in much better conditions than any Jew under a Muslim government in the past and present time. It will be good for you to have a visit to Israel and explore it in your own eyes to establish your objective opinion. I hope that this time, if you come, they will let you in easily. We are still not 100% perfect as same as other Muslim countries including Malaysia are not perfect dealing with minorities. We can and must improve. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 3. On the other hand in Europe, Jews were persecuted. Every now and again there would be pogroms when the Europeans would massacre Jews. The Holocaust did not happen in Muslim countries. Muslims may discriminate against Jews but did not massacre them. • Hanan: As far as I know prophet Mohammed massacred the Jewish tribe Banu Quraiza. Why did he that? Why did he accept massacring all surrendering men that were already fettered? Where is the mercy of the prophet upon surrendering prisoners? On December 30, 1066 (9 Tevet 4827), a Muslim mob stormed the royal palace in Granada, which was at that time in al-Andalus, assassinated Jewish vizier Joseph ibn Naghrela and massacred most of the Jewish population of the city. Assuming that vizier was a culprit of evil, why should those Muslim massacre almost all Jews of Granada? If there is a single Muslim terrorist among a group, should we kill the whole group? Islam and Muslims are not purified of evil mistakes, but Muslims are failing to admit that. You said Muslims may discriminate Jews. Why do you say “may”? This is because you refuse to be convinced that Muslims are practicing discrimination according to their faith and Quran. Jews discrimination by Muslims is not racism? Muslims discrimination economically by NEP of the Malaysian minorities is not racism? When a minister says that the Malaysian Chinese are “guests” in Malaysia while they are Malaysian born for at least several generations, is not racism? The destiny of Jews and other religious minorities in Muslim countries is similar and depending very much the “good will” of the government at the particular time. There is a time minorities are flourishing and times they are depressed. There are some minorities that are flourishing despite depression like Jews during their living in the Diaspora. I know that those words are hard to accept, but those are facts. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 4. But now you are fighting the largely Muslim Palestinians. It cannot be because of religious differences or the killing of Jews living among them. It must be because you have taken their land and expelled them from their homeland. It is therefore not a religious war. But of course as you seek sympathizers from among the non-Muslims, the Palestinians seek sympathizers among the Muslims. That still does not make the war a religious war. • Hanan: May be it is you and many others who say that it is a territorial war. But when you ask the Palestinians and particularly Hamas, they claim it is a holy war for the Muslim land of Palestine which is a Waqf asset. From where Jews spread over Europe, Asia and Africa before Islam was even born? Did they arrive from the moon? Did they arrive from another planet? Don’t you think that they were living in one place before they arrived to their new places? Where was that place? What is more wondering is the “generosity” of Muslims that knew that the Land of Israel was once Jewish, but when they conquered that land they didn’t even think to tell the Jews: “Oh Jews, come back to your home from where you have been expelled by force. There are no Romans anymore. You may come back to your homes and live your life in your homeland”. The Quran says: "To Moses We [Allah] gave nine clear signs. Ask the Israelites how he [Moses] first appeared amongst them. Pharoah said to him: 'Moses, I can see that you are bewitched.' 'You know full well,' he [Moses] replied, 'that none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth has revealed these visible signs. Pharoah, you are doomed.'" "Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]." "We [Allah] have revealed the Qur'an with the truth, and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed] forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning." [Qur'an, "Night Journey," chapter 17:100-104]. So how is it that you say it is not belonging also to the Jews? It is not written that this land belongs to Muslims or Palestinians. Are you convinced that the Land of Israel or even parts of it is belonging to the Jews as same or even more than belongs to the Palestinians? ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 5. Whether you speak Hebrew or not is not relevant. Lots of people who are not English speak English. They don't belong to England. For centuries you could speak Hebrew but remained Germans, British, French, Russians etc. • Hanan: Dear Dr. Mahathir. You are trying to interpret and twist facts. What you say has no relevance to the facts that the roots of Hebrew are from the Land of Israel and a language used by the Children of Israel all along the history. Even some present Jews are not speaking Hebrew in the Diaspora, it doesn’t mean their roots are not in the Land of Israel. Australia, New Zealand is English speaking countries. From where is that language coming? Aren’t the roots from England? The origins of people of those countries (colonialists, not natives) were English. I know that many Palestinians are living now in America, Canada, England and many other countries for at least two generations or even more. They speak the native language whatever it is and maybe also Arabic. Why do they call themselves Palestinians and claim the rights to return to Palestine while the Jews must remain the citizens of those same countries? ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 6. Lots of Jews cannot speak Hebrew but they are still Jews. Merely being able to speak Hebrew does not entitle you to claim Palestine. • Hanan: Of course the language is not the only thing. Furthermore, how many times is Jerusalem mentioned in the Quran by its name “Jerusalem” (without any interpretations, like Al-Quds)? How many times are mentioned the word “Jerusalem” as pure as I wrote it in our holy Bible and praying books? I’ll leave the counting for who really bothers to find out. Furthermore, towards where is a Muslim facing while praying? Is it towards Jerusalem? When a Jew is praying, he is facing towards Jerusalem. Have you asked yourself why? It is because the Jewish roots are in Jerusalem and the Promised Land of Israel. You call a specific place in Jerusalem “Bait-Al-Maqdis”. What does it mean? Isn’t it the Jewish “Beit Hamikdash” – the Holy Temple where Jews were practicing their faith during their independent kingdoms? What Muslims did is strived to wipe of that fact by building a Mosque exactly on that place. I’m sorry dear Dr. Mahathir; you cannot convince me with distorted historical facts. You may try something else. Israel belongs to the Jews whatever anyone may think, like or dislike that fact. On the other hand, Palestinians have the rights to live here with equal rights just because the fact they have been here for centuries. We respect that right. This is our compromise of that land. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 7. The Jews had lived in Europe for centuries. They identify themselves with their domicile. They fought the wars of these countries often against other Jews living in enemy countries. • Hanan: What does it prove? Do you know that in the Israeli Army we have Muslim soldiers and these soldiers are fighting against other Muslims in the so called the Jewish army. Your claim has nothing to do with the conflict. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 8. These countries are their homeland. So why should they take Palestinian land to make their own country? They could take any of the European countries as their own country. The United States of America should offer one of its states as Israel. • Hanan: In this case, I would say that all Palestinian refugees worldwide are second, third, fourth or more generation are the citizens of their new countries and cannot claim the return rights. Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and all other countries shall offer them the place. Would you accept that? Are the Palestinians accepting that? ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 9. As to history, the Malays had occupied a lot of land in Southeast Asia since time immemorial. Today much of our land has become part of neighboring countries, having been conquered or because of treaties entered into by the British. We should really go to war to regain our land especially as there are Malays living there. • Hanan: I’m trying to understand what this has to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Let me put my analogy understanding of that. The fact is that at the moment a few million of Jews are living in Israel. Why should Palestinians go to war to regain the land just because a minority of Arabs is living in Israel? ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 10. But we want to live in peace with our neighbours. So we accept the borders drawn by the colonialists. • Hanan: Thank you for that Dr. Mahathir. You cannot imagine how our desire to live in peace with our neighbors is. So why shouldn’t the Palestinians and Israelis accept any compromise plan they decide upon through a dialog? Can you help them to draft that agreement? If you can do it (I’m not counted as I’m functionless), I can assure you that you are the next Muslim and first Malaysian to be proudly awarding the Nobel Prize of Peace. I’ll be the first to clap hands and bless you (I mean it, read my lips). ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 11. You may say it is a joke to believe the Philistines are the forebears of the Palestinians. But what may be a joke to you is a serious belief of much of the non-Jewish world. • Hanan: Dear Dr. Mahathir, you may find information about Philistines here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistia http://www.bga.nl/en/articles/filist1.html http://www.biblemysteries.com/lectures/philistines.htm ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 12. We did not have a Jewish representative at our conference. But I am sure when you have a conference in Israel you did not have Muslim representatives either. • Hanan: It is not more then I would like to use a correct definition of facts while you said: “The participants at the forum represented all races, belonging to all religions” and now you are saying that no Jews were invited. I would replace the word “all” with the word “some” or “many”. The reason is due to future history aspects. There will be someone who may read that information in 100 year later and may think that Jews were invited to that conference. In addition I would recommend you to read this article about a conference of a Jewish organization in Australia where Muslims attended: http://www.ajn.com.au/news/news.asp?pgID=2583. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 13. I can sympathise over the killings of the Jews. But show me pictures of total destruction of Israeli towns and villages. Show me the effect of the primitive Hamas rockets on the Israeli people. Compare them with the effects of your bombs, rockets, shells, chemical weapons you used on the Gazans. When did Hamas blockade you and starve Israeli people and deprive them of medical attention. Did Hamas build a wall to separate Israelis from other Israelis including from family members? Did Hamas build settlements in Israel? • Hanan: Dear Dr. Mahathir, have you seen pictures of destruction of lives? About what are you talking? Are you talking about destruction of buildings? Is this the important thing? Aren’t the peoples’ lost lives, Palestinians and Israelis more important? We can forgive our enemy for destroying our houses, damaging our assets, but how can we deal the same with lost lives? Of course our bombs are more precise and less statistical. Would you like us to bomb our enemy with statistical shells or rockets? Then you’ll say actually the same, that we are killing innocent civilians with non precise weapons. Thanks God Hamas is not yet blockading us. Sorry to be a bit “aggressive” but our enemy Hamas is saying that its aim is to wipe off Israel and kill the Jews. Hams means it and is doing it without any mercy. Should we support them steel and iron so they can produce more of their rockets? Hamas banished all international border passages inspectors and created there a chaos so they will be able to smuggle more destructive weapons in order to fight against Israel. This cannot be accepted by any mean. The Hamas ideology is well known and nursing from the most radical Islam. Gazans elected Hamas knowing well their charter and the fundamental radicalism. So if they are feeling punished, it is because of Hamas. Why isn’t any blockade on the West Bank or East Jerusalem? Palestinians there have their needed supplies without any problem. The fence (wall in your terminology) is a passive defense mean against terror. May be you forgot the suicide bombers within Israeli buses and malls prior the fence was built. It is proven statistically that those suicide bombing is now almost not existing because of that fence. When peace will come, I can assure you that the fence will not be a barrier between both peoples. A fence can be built and removed easily when the time will come. Lost lives of a suicide bombing cannot return. What is the worth of so called separated families because of that fence if it saves even a single innocent person from death? But assuming that a dead person is a Jew, it cannot be more important than Palestinian family members can greet each other a “good morning”. A Palestinian “good morning greeting” is much more valuable than a life of a Jew. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 14. This idea of out-terrorising the terrorists, of massive retaliation on a scale that horrifies the whole world will not work. • Hanan: Dr. Mahathir, this is not massive retaliation. Just think if we would want to do that massive retaliation couldn’t we burn Gaza in a few hours? Why don’t we complete what you claim as massive retaliation? This means that what you say is a mistakenly fact. We are not so evil thinking to revenge the whole population because of terrorism. The revenge is more popular among Muslims. Palestinians are always claiming their revenge upon Israeli military activities. And what they do is mainly terrorizing Israeli civilians. Terrorizing civilians is not horrifying? Can the Palestinian terror work? Can Muslims terror work? May be we should let them continue with their terror, sit and ask them to continue with more terror since this is not horrifying the world and may work better. It will achieve better “to cast terror in their hearts”. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 15. Our people who went to Gaza were amazed at the attitude of the people there. Even after the deaths of so many of them, the deaths of their children and babies; even after their towns have been flattened, their schools and hospitals destroyed, they show no fear. Every one of them expects to die at any time because of your attacks but they would never surrender. When asked they simply said it is their land and they would defend it to the last. Even an Arab Christian priest was determined to stay on in Gaza. Those of their children who survive will prepare themselves to defend their land like their parents. Your attacks fail to terrify them or to force them to submit. You only succeed in instilling greater hatred of Israel and the Israelis. • Hanan: Your people who went to Gaza saw just one side of the picture and arrived there with a biased opinion. Yes, this is a sad story of killed people and flattened infrastructure. By providing this fact without addressing the root cause, someone would think that Israel is playing war for fun. We don’t ask them to surrender. We don’t want them to die. We want them to live in dignity and to let us live without the daily terror. Unfortunately the hatred is increasing on both sides. This is because people are thinking wrong and react with anger. It is Hamas who imprisoned the population to suffer because of their radical Islam-Politics against Israel and the Jews. As same the Jews will not surrender and fight for our rights to live here till the last person. There are three options of a solution. (1)The Palestinians shall wipe the Jews from the land or (2) the Israelis shall wipe the Palestinians from the land or (3) both sides must find a solution to live side by side and compromise. Not recognizing one side rights to exist on that land like Hamas is doing is disabling the third option of compromising. That’s the simple logic that no one can accept if he wants to survive. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 16. When it was pointed out to them that they are no match for the Israeli forces and their weapons of mass destruction, when it was pointed out that their rockets were primitive and cannot compare with the destructiveness of Israeli rockets, they were not disheartened. The Israeli attacks simply strengthened their resolve to go on fighting. The Israeli idea to out-terrorise them has not worked and I believe it would not work. • Hanan: Dear Dr. Mahathir, this method of resistance was tried out for so many years and did not solve anything but more bitterness. This is an attitude of hopeless people. Palestinians should not be hopeless. As an engineer, when I discover that my solution of a problem is not working, I try some other approach to solve it. When a system is having a short circuit and the fuse is blown, maybe I’ll try to replace the fuse once, twice, even ten times. But the fuse is still blowing. I need a different approach and address a better solution instead replacing the fuses. Maybe I’ll increase its value but it still blows. Can I increase that value endless? I may damage the system. Then I need to think out of the box and find another approach to solve the problem. The Palestinians are trying along many years to replace the fuses and it blows time after time. They even increased its value and they didn’t gain any solution but frustration all along the way. A new approach to solve the problem is required. A violent resistance – terror is not the way. Let’s not push each other to the wall and meet in the center of the room to speak. This is a different approach in my point of view. Let’s brainstorm and do something for the next generations. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 17. Your arguments simply confirm my belief that the Jews have the same degree of hatred for the Palestinians, despite the fact that you suffer less than them. • Hanan: I would not try to measure which side hates more. Definitely, there is hatred between the peoples. The root cause of that hatred lies in front of both sides. It is not based on personal haltered but national one. As a national hatred it is pointed only and only to the peoples politicians and religion clerics. Demonizing people is not done by the humble citizens; it is done by politicians whatever the reason is. I think if the politicians and clerics would describe a different approach to solve the problem it may work with the humble people as well. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 18. The war has degenerated into a feud between Palestinians and Israelis. The Palestinians know they cannot win the war but that simply heightened their hatred for Israelis. They will nevertheless try to kill Jews, even if that will intensify Jewish hatred for the Palestinians. And you will retaliate with many times greater ferocity because you cannot force them to their knees. Their resistance simply increase your anger and hatred of them. • Hanan: Dear Dr. Mahathir, you are right. This looks like an endless bloody wheel that spins faster and faster. We must join forces to stop that wheel. Believe me, honestly, the last thing I want is more killing and dead people on both sides. Don’t think I have no mercy for the innocent Palestinians. But I have the same mercy for my own people who are suffering as well. The approach of the Palestinians, Israeli and the Muslim world should change. All forces must join to bring a new vision of hope to both peoples. Those many years of violence didn’t provide any constructive solution, but pain and more pain. We can make it! ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 19. We have come to an impasse. If Israel is bent on occupying Palestinian land, on building Jewish settlements, on building Berlin walls and on sanctions and blockade, the Palestinians will continue their futile attacks. Arabs will die, maybe 10 for every one Jew. But with the hatred for Jews which they harbour, that is a worthwhile sacrifice. And Jews will kill more Arabs to express their hatred. And so it will go on as it had gone for 60 years, as it will go on for another 60 years or more. • Hanan: Dear Dr. Mahathir. Before the fence was built and the blockade on Gaza didn’t the Palestinians do their futile attacks? Didn’t we suffer their terror? It looks like this is their way to solve their problems. The hatred is increasing and it is to blame the Palestinians as same as the Israelis if to be fair in judgment. Saying that the war may continue another 60 years or more using the same strategy is proving that you are or militant (which I prefer not to believe) or hopeless of a solution (which must not be). A wise man like you, as a leader you cannot afford yourself to be hopeless. I would encourage you to think over the situation again and again and try to find the light at the end of the tunnel. It must not continue for another 60 years of violence and sorrow. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 20. Dear Hanan, tell your Government to compromise. • Hanan: My government is ready to compromise. They always demonstrated it as by the pulling back from Gaza and letting the Palestinians start a new page without terror. When we occupied Gaza they terrorized and claimed that this is the reason. We pulled back and they continued their terror. Compromising must be a demand on both sides. What did we get from the Palestinians for our previous compromising? Dear Dr. Mahathir, I’ll ask you something. Please, kindly go to your government which you know very well and ask them to compromise and establish diplomatic relations with Israel. This should be very easy for you since Israel has no border conflict with Malaysia and your position is much stronger on your government than mine on my government. After you do this, I’ll go to my government and tell them to compromise more (based on the terror to be stopped). This will be a sign for me that the Muslim world has a different approach and really seeks for peace. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Let me end my comments with a personal poem I wrote (which you are probably familiar with, but the other readers are not yet familiar). A Wish for Brotherhood Once upon a time we were brothers, So were our mothers and fathers. So were our grandfathers, grandmothers. Can't we have something that gathers? Why should hate spread more than love? Why to shoot down the peaceful dove? Why to use the killing bloody sword Instead a meaningful loving word? Can't we join our forces to unite? Can’t we spread love instead to fight? Our common to bloom and prosper, The hate will eliminate and defer. Let our bright sun to rise and shine, Salute peace and raise a toast of wine. Build for our kids playing yards And not bloody gloomy graveyards. Let's then be sisters and brothers, Even our colors differs the others. Let our hands strongly embrace and bundle, Then on earth peace will role and handle. Hanan© 04-12-2003 May God bless you with Salam, Shalom. Hanan, Jewish and an Israeli Zionist. A solution is based on two fundamentals, the problem and the willing to solve it
Re: Hanan VS Dr. Mahathir
Once again you have been silenced and reduced to talking gibberish.
Re: Hanan VS Dr. Mahathir
Explain how fool!
I used to be an atheist until I realised that I was god.
Re: Hanan VS Dr. Mahathir
dear Hanan
I read it whole. I would not done it better. my approach would have been a bit aggressive. sadly that this post of yours would not be of significance to him. he will stick to the guns he received. don't be surprised that you will get similar posts from him which is one and the same nature. according to Dr.Ali Sina, they unable to perceive the world as normal human beings. to be accuarte i will provide his words as he wrote them.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/01/07/258/ reading the posts from islamists who are not connected by regionally nor by nationality, but by faith. you will notice same pattern of posts. how could that be? take out islam from Dr. Mahathir, his post will be balanced. now he is in the state of dr.no "those who wish to wipe out the Jewish people must not expect us to identify with their symbols and centers of incitement" MK Michael Ben-Ari (National Union)
Faith Freedom International
Re: Hanan VS Dr. Mahathir
Only the Third holiest site of Islam? It's the HOLIEST site to the jews. You lose. Quran miracle (16:69) : Bees eat fruits
Quran miracle (27:18) : an ant SAID, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."
Re: Hanan VS Dr. Mahathir
bra888 made an educational post to Dr. Mahathir
"those who wish to wipe out the Jewish people must not expect us to identify with their symbols and centers of incitement" MK Michael Ben-Ari (National Union)
Faith Freedom International
Re: Hanan VS Dr. Mahathir
Balls_of_Titanium_1 knows that very well. but won't admit it. "those who wish to wipe out the Jewish people must not expect us to identify with their symbols and centers of incitement" MK Michael Ben-Ari (National Union)
Faith Freedom International
Re: Hanan VS Dr. Mahathir
Hanan,
I challenge you to debate on this issue with me.
This is all flowery talk. It do not address the situation on the ground, nor make any effort to do so. Usually such talk is favourable to those who have an upper hand in the conflict, or are in the worng. Because indulging in it takes nothing from them. What we must discuss are the core and important issues, rather than indulging in flowery talk. Putting my personl stance that Israel has a whole is illegtimate aside, let's see the ground reality in terms of wordly conventions and international law. What do we see? It is Israel which is occupying Palestinian territories. It is Israel which is inflicting oppression on Palestinians by continuing to creep into Palestinians territories by buildling illegal settlments in the occupied territories. It is Israel which is involved in military aggression against Palestinians on many occasions, and makes excuses based on feeble rockets to kill hundreds of Palestinians while not actually implementing any of the what the international law demands from it. It is Israelis who live in comfort, while Palestinians are oppressed and occupied. How would you then demand that both these people see the conflict in a similar way? Who needs to be educated and who needs to correct his path the most? These questions cannot be ignored because the answers to them will determine which course the conflict would take in the future. If you are really sincere, then analyse these issues, and address them, rather than engaging in flowery talk.
Yes, and during the course of your psychological experiment, Palestinians continue to live under oppression and restricitons and daily harm and injury. While wasting time on such takes nothing from the Israelis as they have the upper hand in the conflict, right? Do you see the effect of this thus?
All is true, but who needs this preaching the most in this conflict? It is not Palestinians who are occupying Israeli land, it is not Palestinians who are continuing to build illegal settlments on occupied land, it is not Palestinians who are restricting the existence of Israelis to progressively smaller enclaves in order to sustain and expand illegal settlements, policies virtually leading to the death of a nation. It is the other way round.
That is absolutely false. For the last hundreds of years, for the last two thousands years, Jews have been in a minority in Palestine. By stamping the Palestinian land as inately Jewish, the whole prespective of the conflict is skewed, and thus from then on we can never agree to anything. No people had a stamp on any land. What happened to Palestinians when the Jewish problem of Europe was imposed on them was WRONG and UNJUST. The issue should not be seen from the racist Zionist thinking that the indigenous Population of Palestine inhabiting the land continuously for hundreds of years had less right to Palestine than the Jews migrating to Palestine from Europe and other continents (if anything, it is the other way round). A compromising approach must recognize this, but at the same time may demand compromising settlment on the existing realities. However, to start if off wrongly, is to remove the possibility of ending it correctly. If Jews just took "their land" from Bediuns, a land stamped to their name by God, then logically Israel should concede nothing, Palestinian state is unnecessary. Thus immoral ideas lead to immoral consequences, and thus we need to to correctly relate the begining of the conflict - which, as David Ben Gurion had himself say - had in European Jewry taking control of historically Arab land (with Jews as a minority).
Ask if America can give up New York to create an independent Sikh state - the only Sikh state on the planet. What will be the response? Why it is such a big deal for America? "Such a small area" was home to 400,000 souls in the 19th century, of whom only 4 percent were Jews. You think of them as insignificant? Meanwhile, all the anti-Jewish policies in the Arab states you bring up, was during the time of Israel's creation. Does it ring any bell to you? And many of them are questionable facts and generalized information.
Quite the other way round. The issue is very much political. It is the Jews who made it religious. They errected a state symbolizing Jewish religion and ethnicity, on the expulsion of a million Arabs, on historically Palestinian land. The circumstances will be the same if any group of religious people did similar.
This is not a comparative issue as you are comparing the situation to Malaysia. When talking about Israel and its Arab population, we should never overlook what Israel is doing to Palestinians in the occupied territories. It is to no one's suprise that Israeli government has interests in another population transfer - this time peaceful transfer of Arab Israelis to a future Palestinain state if created. Israel does not annex the occupied territories, because then it would have to be responsible for the people living within it. It just continues the very brutal and immoral semi-occupation of Palestinain territories to ensure that it gets land without its people. Ask any Palestinian if living under such conditions is great compared to a Chinese in Malaysia. I can also quote many studies regarding discrimination against Arabs in Israel, but this is immaterial. Heck the whole state of Israel is based on discrimation interwoven in its ideology, when seen from this prespective. It is the Jewish homeland for all the Jews in the world, ethnicity is the determining factor regarding who will be its citzens and who will be not. However, when discussing interstate conflicts and their possible solutions, internal dynamics of the states involved are a red herring.
Again, when talking about the possible solution of the conflict, we must stay away from the internal dynamics of the countries involved. They are important only in so far as they affect the conflict. If I now start exposing Zionism for what it is (a completely racist ideology) an impression will be given that I oppose the existence of Israel as a whole (which for argument's take this time around, I don't ). Thus these emotional appeals that appeals to personal opinion and fragmented facts (Arabs living great in Israel compared to Middle Ages Muslim empire, when even Muslims wouldn't have the facilities awarded to us by the modern times - or the fact that across the border, these same Arabs are been treated as less humans by the same Zionists) should stay out of reasonable debate trying to zoom in on the possible solution to the conflict. There would be good people in Israel of course, there would be hospitals catering to Palestininas. But we are here to discuss the reasons why those Palestininas are in hospitals in the first place, and how can these be removed.
This is a less than honest diversion into theological matters. The whole Cannanite nation wiped out by Isarelites... but then it would go on into a non-fruitful discussion. Thus these matters should be kept aside. Dr. Mahatir was talking in the context of Muslim empires and their Jewish subjects. Muslims did not massacre Jews as an established policy like what routinely happened in Europe. Muslims instead shaltered Jews many a time when they were being expelled or oppressed in Europe. Ironically, the seed of Israel's creation was also sown owing to the generosity of Muslims in the Turks allowing Jewish immigrants to settle in Palestine, and in Palestinians initially working and cooperating with the Jewish immigrants and living peacefully.
It is and nothing but a territorial war. However, people involved in a struggle do use religion as a motivating factor and therefore reconcile their wordly goal with the demands of the religion. In this way, the struggle may be stengthened. It was the Jews who made the conflict religious and ethnic from the start as already stated, by simply errecting a Jewish - ethnically and religious - state on Palestinian land and on the expulsion of a million Palestinians and further claiming that God had stamped the land of their name. Is this not making the argument religious?
Let's agree that at one point those Jews lived in Palestine - 2000 years ago. What about people that lived in it before Jews arrived? What about those people who lived their with the Jews but were non-Jewish? The events of history brough the shift in demographics, from the reigon being non-Jewish at one point, to Jewish at another, and then non-Jewish majority for the last two thosuand years. The Jews in Europe, Africa, Russia made those countries their home, some converted to Christianity, and were permanantly integrated into those societies, others kept their religious identities, many intermixed with the non-Jewish population. Meanwhile, in Palestine, the people that lived in the land even before Jewish continued to perpetuate whatever happened to Jews. Many Jews converted to other religions, intermixed with other populations, some continued to perpetuate in Palestine. Historical events expanding over centuries changed the population dynamics in the region and indigenous population of Palestine became majority non-Jewish for well over one and a half thousand years (even before that). These people continued to inhabit the land for hundreds of years continously, and were fully organic to the land. Now suddenly, you claim that a Jew in Europe, with half European name and European genes, has more right to Palestine than an indigenous Palestinian and can replace the later, and want to be taken seriously at the same time? Due to certain events that happened in the land at some point in history, you think the land is stamped Jewish forever and thus the indigenous population be damned? No matter whatever are your emotions or realities, whether you faced discriminations or not, whether you are so few or not, whether you have no home land or not, all this does not in any way affect the the people of Palestine who were just going about their daily lives when the storm of Zionism hit them. How can you start ressurecting your ancient mythologies and implementing them in the world without taking care of the ground reality and expect favourable reaction? NOW is the time for YOU to understand the other.
Again, "God stamped that land Jewish". This faulty mentality is the heart of the problem. NO - NO land is Jewish. The belongs to the majority of its inhabitants. That's it. Why shouldn't the Muslims ressurect Cannanites who were not even expelled, but wiped off? They did actually, they perpetuated the existing social order in a peaceful way. They did not expel anyone (heck, even if they did, hundreds of years on, this doesn't justify expelling Palestinians). You must come up with some mature thought process.
Again, this is another less than honest argument. Don't bring in religion. (Did you not say it is Muslims who make it religious, yet you are doing it here on Muslim behalf!) Just stay on the political and human dynamics of the conflict if you are seeking a solution. The land of Palestine as it was in the 19th century, had 4 percent of its population Jewish. The land certainly belonged to all these people. But no person living in any part of the world could claim this land just because of his ethnicity or ancient mythology.
Scientifically, our roots are in Africa, yours roots included. That doesn't mean we have the right to storm Africa as and when we feel like it. The fact is, Jews in Europe, Africa, Russia intermixed with locals of those lands and became part of the society there. The resurrection of separate identity to form a separate state is nothing but a fabulous religions utopian idea - and any such ideas do lead to destruction of a vast scale. But more importantly, Palestinians going about their daily lives had nothing to do with all this. They were totally caught unsuspecting when Zionism hit them.
Don't remain. But don't take someone else's land to realize your fantasies. The fact is in the current situation, the authorities in a given country can accept or reject anyone applying for citizenship. A Palestinian living in England for two generation will be subject to this determination by the appropriate Palestinian authorities. His "right of return" that is. This inconsequential technicality cannot be used to justify the very problametic ideology of Zionism to have a whole scale transfer of one population to a certain land while replacing it with the local population.
Why should the unsuspecting Palestinians hit by Zionism recocgnize and associate with your religous fantasies and beliefs?
By your earlier arguments, it seems you mean by "Israel" the whole land west of Jordan river. In which case your declaration is rejected wholeheartedly. Had you claimed a right to Israel based on the legal technicalities of international law and UN decision, that would be one thing and I would have been sympathetic to it for the argument's sake. But no, you claim a transendental right to the whole of Palestine just because at one point people calling themselves Jews gained dominance in Palestine at one point in history, associating it with your religious fables and mythologies. You want to be awarded a superior position. You like a disturbed child want us to be sympathetic to your unfeasible demands. So you are the master of that land, while Palestinians "may" live in it. Oh so nice of you to respect the right of poeple who inhabited Palestine continuosly for centuries, to their land, while granting a superior right to yourself when the Jews in recent history constituted only 4 percent of the Palestinian population on the basis of faith and ethnicity. And you expect anything near peace to be achieved? Your thinking is the hurdle. Within this context, the response will be in the same vain. You have no right to any of the Palestinian land which you took due to mass immigration under the imperialist authorities to change the demographics of the region and to expell the local population. The official Isarel belongs more the refugees in the refugees camps. You belong more to the lands you left for Palestine. Are you really looking for a solution? And now let be take down the tone. What do you really mean by Palestinians having the right to live in Israel as equal citizens? What do you propose by this? Do you propose a one state solution with Israel annexing remaining Palestinian territories and accepting the Palestinian population into Israel? Or do you support two state solution, by saying the above? In any of the above case, do you see who is the hurdle to even these solutions?
The Muslims in Israel therefore have no right to go to Spain and claim the country since one time it was controlled by Muslims. Do you understand?
So the Muslims are trying to take over Isarel again, so that they expell the Jews of Europe and after the expulsion had become a thing of the past, claim that it is now a ground reality. Do you support this endeveour? Doesn't it fall within your logic? Don't rely on less than honest arguments. When discussing the Palestinian conflict, the initiators will be mentioned - the Jews who wanted to create a separate state on a land which was majority non-Jewish. The Palestinian refugees want to return to their land from whence they were expelled. The aggressors are very much holding them back. In the case of Jews expulsion of Romans, the aggressors had long gone and the land already went to its local people. You cannot in your wildiest dream think of the two scenarios as alike.
Well, the point made by Dr. Mahathir went over your head. (And yet this forum will praise you for your fantastic performacing at "crushing" Dr Mahathir's argument - this is the standard of this forum). Dr. Mahathir says that historically there were many lands around the present day Malaysia which were historically Malay. But during the course of history, owing to many historical events, those parts did not remain with Malaysia but came under the control of other nations. The good Dr. then asks, shoudl Malaysians go to war with the neigbhoring countries to regain "their historical territory"? Implicitly answering no. And then implying that by the same logic that Jews trying to gain their "historical land" when the present situation in the said land is very different, was also wrong. Get it?
The solution has already been proposed for decades. I am not sure what led to your ignorance of it. The very COMPROMISING solution is the two state solution on pre-67 borders - compromising for Palestinians, and not the other way round. So what do you say about this solution? Isarel is trying ever so hard to try to diminish the possibility of implementing such a solution.
This may be inconsequential to you, but for poor Gazans (driven poor by Isareli occuaption) a destroyed house means a lot. For you the authorities will come and rebuild it. For Gazans, such authorities, even if they had the means, will be barred by YOUR auhorities to do any such thing. So no, don't look at the situation from your comfortable glasses. This is not true for Palestininas.
And why don't you give Hamas precise weapons so that they can target Israel's governmental buildings, military installations etc?
Again, within the above context, I can understand a Palestinian wanting total destruction of Israel as in the dissolution of the state of Israel. For Palestininas, Isarel was carved out of Nakba, when a million Palestinians were expelled from thier homes. However, Hamas may dream of wiping of Israel, Israel is implementing destruction and non-realization of a Palestinian state. Which hurts more?
Hamas is not occupying Israel, Hamas is not creeping into Israeli land by building illegal settlements. Hamas is not oppressing Isarelis on daily basis, by putting restrictions on thier movements, business etc. Hamas is not involved in routine assissations and killings of Israelis.
But you have no problem making weapons to oppress Palestinians out of steel and iron? to use them on schools in Gaza, on hospitals. To build separation walls with concerete and steel, do you?
UN gives full right to the occupied people to fight against the occupiers. Do you know that? Doesn''t Israel continue to smuggle more destructive weapons in order to continue to occupy Palestine land? Hamas is a legtimate elected government of Palestine. But Israel bombed its headquaters, killed its leaders, and instigated violence in Gaza by supporting the treacherous Fetah. It is Israel which instigated violence and chaos in Gaza.
Israeli occuaption cannot be accepted by any mean. Do you understand that?
The Isareli theology is also well known.
Israeli citizens elect and support their government knowing fulll well that it is involved in occupation and oppression against Palestininas, murder of Palestinians and Lebanese.
Yes, if I deprive you of food, if I suject you to bombardment, it is just that "you feel punished". No punishment on my part!!!! Isn't that great?
East Jerusalem and West Bank are occupied by Israel and controlled by Isareli henchmen in Fetah. That's why. A subded territory presents a silence, but the silence is always manicing. Do you like living under foriegn occupation?
No, it is an aggressive measure to grab more Palestinian territory. The true passive defense would be ending of occupation - and thus no retaliatory strikes from Palestinians. This is as simple as that. Read Chomsky on the Wall: http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20040223.htm What this wall is really doing is taking Palestinian lands. It is also — as the Israeli sociologist Baruch Kimmerling has described Israel's war of "politicide" against the Palestinians — helping turn Palestinian communities into dungeons, next to which the bantustans of South Africa look like symbols of freedom, sovereignty and self-determination. .... The wall has already claimed some of the most fertile lands of the West Bank. And, crucially, it extends Israel's control of critical water resources, which Israel and its settlers can appropriate as they choose, while the indigenous population often lacks water for drinking. Palestinians in the seam between the wall and the Green Line will be permitted to apply for the right to live in their own homes; Israelis automatically have the right to use these lands. "Hiding behind security rationales and the seemingly neutral bureaucratic language of military orders is the gateway for expulsion," the Israeli journalist Amira Hass wrote in the daily Haaretz. "Drop by drop, unseen, not so many that it would be noticed internationally and shock public opinion." The same is true of the regular killings, terror and daily brutality and humiliation of the past 35 years of harsh occupation, while land and resources have been taken for settlers enticed by ample subsidies. It also seems likely that Israel will transfer to the occupied West Bank the 7,500 settlers it said this month it would remove from the Gaza Strip. These Israelis now enjoy ample land and fresh water, while one million Palestinians barely survive, their meager water supplies virtually unusable. Gaza is a cage, and as the city of Rafah in the south is systematically demolished, residents may be blocked from any contact with Egypt and blockaded from the sea. The world court has declared the wall illegal. How do you propose to move forward when you falsify facts so blatantly?
Yes, only the consequence to you matter. Yet now rockets have come. What about the Palestinians? You have been progressively taking their land and the wall is part of the plan. Remaining within official boundaries, Israel had the right to build any wall it wanted around its own offical borders - that is pre-67 borders. That wall would have provided real security, wouldn't it? What, even according to you, justifies Israel's attempt at land garb in the name of security? Are you really interested in peace?
Why should we give importance to your empty assurance? To your own admittance, you are insignificant in this, so why these haughty phrases for rhetorical purposes? We see on the ground that it IS a barrier to peace. It is a barrier to smooth existence of whatever that is left of Palestine. UN recognizes this, World Court recognizes this, human rights organizations within and outside Israel recognize this. And yet we are to take your word? The wall is built to take what is officially Palestinian land. How can you justify it? "When there will be peace"? There will be NO peace if Palestininas are continued to be oppressed. Maybe you define peace only as calm in Israel. Even if people are oppressed and killed on daily basis in Palestine, you would call the situation peaceful if there is calm in Israel. This mentality of Isareli apologists and their American supporters has been well noted.
The effects of the fence cannot be removed, remember this. You have no right to build any fence on official Palestinain territories.
And the effects of the fence, the separation Palestiain families, the grabbing of Palestinian land, the resulting oppression against Palestininas cannot be removed as well. As I said, build wall on your pre-67 borders. You would have stopped suicide bombing even then. But no, was security your real intention? Think about it. Isareli government has always preferred expansion over security. This is the root of the conflict.
Yes, what are the pains of a Palestinians, whom your leaders have called "grasshoppers" and "two legged beasts" compared to the pain of oh so superior God choosen people the Jews. People give their lives for their land, remember. So land at times is more important than life. But of course, noting Palestinian is of any consequence to you. Only what affects you must be seen in your prespective. And you dare talk about understanding the other side? The separation wall = grabbing of more Palestinian territory = resistance by the Palestinians = continued violence. It directly kills - the wall that is.
But the thousands killed in Palestinians, Lebanese, and others due to Israel's continued policies of expansion - of which the Wall is a part - are certainly inferior to the Jews losing their lives due to sucide bombing, right? [/quote] Yes, the oh so innocent Israeli military "activities"! Goosh, "ACTIVITIES" like playing basket ball or swiming! Well, [b]the argument that we are not evil because we have not killed the entire Gazan population only proves the evil of the person forwarding it. You are restrained much because of the world rather than yourself. The Palestininas have everything to avenge. After all they are the party which has lost everything. Not you. Yet the mentality of Israelis is nothing but that of blood lust for Palestininans. Just as in Lebanon, civilians were terrorized and killed to put pressure on the government - a clear cut terrorist action - in Gaza you did the same. Destroying houses, attacking schools and hospitals, kiling innocent men and women and children, and causing a whole host of other difficulties for Palestinians, in order to terrorize them into submission. Now you may ask, what should you do of rockets? You should understand that they are in retaliation to your occupation and terrorism in Palestinian territories. If you really are bothered by rockets, then adopt the right course. Sign a peace treaty with Hamas. It is Israel which has broken every treaty with Hamas and that was true of the last one too. For the long run, agree to the two state solution and stop your occupation of Palestinian land. In this way, you would have solved the issue of rockets in the right manner, and have "defended yourself". (I responded to the rest of your post, however, unfortunately, I lost it in computer bump. When I will have the time I will respond to that one too. )
Re: Hanan VS Dr. Mahathir
[quote="Balls_of_Titanium_1"]Hanan,
B.O.G. wrote I challenge you to debate on this issue with me. Hanan a bit of advice. Don't listen to a word Balls of Glass says he is not to be trusted at all . Everything he says is just Hot Air and bluff and bluster and when he is up against it he RUNS AWAY. Look at the Forum you will see this intellectual midget has RUN AWAY from COUNTLESS arguments. Does a God create you simply to punish you in Hellfire well PREDESTINATING evil, illogical, sadistic allah DOES.
Re: Hanan VS Dr. Mahathir
At least the Jews have not beheaded every Gazan male and enslaved every Gazan women and children. Be thankful, BoT, that the Jews are better people than your profit.
Re: Hanan VS Dr. Mahathir
is it a sign to celebrate your apostasy from Islam? "those who wish to wipe out the Jewish people must not expect us to identify with their symbols and centers of incitement" MK Michael Ben-Ari (National Union)
Faith Freedom International
Re: Hanan VS Dr. Mahathir
Balls_of_Titanium_1 you have not able to verified that israel is Palestinian land. you entire post to Hanan is a fig.
"those who wish to wipe out the Jewish people must not expect us to identify with their symbols and centers of incitement" MK Michael Ben-Ari (National Union)
Faith Freedom International
Re: Hanan VS Dr. Mahathir
----and not kill the husband of the most beautiful Gazan women and make her the wife of the Israeli leader  like profit would
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