Van attack and shooting in Barcelona

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manfred
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Van attack and shooting in Barcelona

Post by manfred »

A van ploughed into tourists outside a kosher restaurant in Barcelona, and is being treated as a terror attack by police.

The vehicle hit pedestrians in Las Ramblas, a busy tree-lined promenade in the centre of the city, the Ministry of the Interior said.

The suspected driver has fled the vehicle, according to local police.


Armed men reportedly hide in Turkish bar and restaurant

Two armed men have entrenched themselves in a Turkish bar and restaurant in Barcelona's city centre after a van mowed down dozens of people, El Periodico newspaper reported on Wednesday.

El Periodico reported gunfire in the area of La Boqueria Market, although it did not cite the source of the information.

It was not immediately clear that the men were the drivers of the van.


The dead and injured

According to local reports, at least thirteen people have died.

Local police have confirmed that there were fatalities after the crash.

A Barcelona city councilor has confirmed at least one dead and 32 injured after the attack.

At least 56 people have been taken to hospitals across the city, according to local newspaper La Vanguardia
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08 ... or-attack/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Equestrian
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Re: Van attack and shooting in Barcelona

Post by Equestrian »

Seriously, is anyone surprised by this 'breaking news'? This is just another normal day in Europe, carry on with your lives. After all, It's only Europeans that died.

This is an interesting perspective from an expat in Japan.

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" ~Carl Sagan
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manfred
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Re: Van attack and shooting in Barcelona

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Indeed. These things have become so common place that you can almost write the script of the news reports before it even happened. We are however, seeing some small developments...

We did not get the "lone wolf" fairy tale, in fact we have not had that for a while. We are told it was a group, directed by others, who had a much more devastating plan even than this.

And I still don't believe that there are simple or "one step fix all" for this. You like dilemmas,it seems, and here the real dilemma is how to combat this while still remaining true to our values and principles.

Your solution would probably be to ban all travel of all Moroccans to Spain, and round all existing Moroccans in Spain up for deportation or worse...

In reality, just as you cannot blame all Canadians for the murder committed by one, you cannot hold all Moroccans responsible for the actions of some.

We have some Moroccans here in London too... some are barbers, bus drivers, teachers, nurses ....

As a first step, I think, we need immigration controls, sure, but they cannot on their own provide a solution. We also need good intelligence on specially younger people with a Muslim background living among us. Certain things are recurring themes when it comes to the perpetrators, a certain age, poor employment record and educational achievements, lack of integration...

Somehow all people with such profiles need to be found and first supported to make a success of their lives, and if that is not possible or they are unwilling, they should be closely monitored or, as a last resort, removed from the country.

And nobody should pretend that they have a quick fix for this awful problem.
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Re: Van attack and shooting in Barcelona

Post by sum »

We have to accept that Islam and its supporters are fighting an offensive war against the non-muslim world. The response seems to be only defence but the non-muslim world can NEVER win a defensive war against the muslims. Not to take up the challenge is national suicide. I have to disagree with Manfred on our remaining true to our values and principles.

There is only one approach that I would suggest and that is to win using any and every tactic, ethical, moral or not. If we lose then it would be for ever with no prospect of regaining our indigenous way of life.

If the powers that be want to get the public onside then they will first have to reveal the politics of Islam and how it will very significantly affect even the non-muslims. At present, there is not a cat in hell`s chance of getting the Government to start revealing the truth about Islam just as there is not a cat in hell`s chance of getting the muslims to agree to revealing their politics and political aims.

This seems to apply all over Eirope.

I can not believe that our politicians are totally ignorant about the reality of Islam and so it must simply be plain ordinary cowardice with a treasonous dereliction of duty not to oppose Islam. The muslims are permanently facing down our politicians who seem to be on permanent bended knee before the muslims.

sum
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Re: Van attack and shooting in Barcelona

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ISIS say ordinary people in a Western country are "legitimate targets" because they support their governments with taxes who in turn sometimes carry out hostile acts against some people who are Muslims. So the tourist from Belgium walking on Las Ramblas is Barcelona is responsible not only for himself, but also his government and all the governments it has treaties with.

If we say that ALL Muslims are legitimate targets for deportation or other such measures, are we not lowering ourselves to the same standards as ISIS?

However, one of our principles should be to be truthful. Islam and its political aims should be openly discussed and make plain to all. Then it is up to our politicians we elect to work out measures.

If you look at Hungary, Poland or the Czech Republic, for example, you find that there have no compatible problems: two main reasons for that: a much less generous welfare system, and brutal honesty about Islam in general, without misplaced "political correctness" scruples.

I think we can learn from them. When Islam is discussed just as it is, and when Muslims cannot see people making special provisions for them, they go elsewhere. No force needed, just some simple measures. Example: halal slaughter does not meet EU guidelines on cruelty to animals, so it should be outlawed, and the sale of halal products forbidden. Mosques should be supervised, and all sermons recorded. There should be no Muslim schools. If any other person married to more than one partner can be prosecuted, that should also apply to Muslims. There should be no provisions for Muslim prayers in secular buildings such as universities. Dressing in ways where the face cannot be seen is a public risk and should be forbidden.

If we introduced such measures, many Muslims will vote with their feet. We do not need to resort to violence. This is a solvable problem, provided first it is seen as a problem and a bit of common sense applied to it.
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Re: Van attack and shooting in Barcelona

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Manfred wrote:
ISIS say ordinary people in a Western country are "legitimate targets" because they support their governments with taxes who in turn sometimes carry out hostile acts against some people who are Muslims. So the tourist from Belgium walking on Las Ramblas is Barcelona is responsible not only for himself, but also his government and all the governments it has treaties with.
By the same logic, all Muslims are paying zakat, of which a portion is for jihad.
Therefore ALL Muslims are supporting jihad.
If we say that ALL Muslims are legitimate targets for deportation or other such measures, are we not lowering ourselves to the same standards as ISIS?
It depends if we want our progenies to survive and be free or be enslaved.

Did we think like this in 1944?
Didn't we lower ourselves to the standards (and then some) to our enemies to win?

I see it as an existential threat.

History tells us that with Islam, there are no negotiations, no compromise. A zero sum game.
There are only winners or losers.

Our freedom was given to us by the sacrifice of our parents, grandparents. We are the custodians of that freedom.
We have no right to give it away, depriving our progenies of it.

By the look of it, we will lose the freedom handed to us.
Our children will curse us for generations to come.
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.
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Re: Van attack and shooting in Barcelona

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By the same logic, all Muslims are paying zakat, of which a portion is for jihad.
Therefore ALL Muslims are supporting jihad.
Yes that WOULD be the same logic. But do we really want to descend to that level?

What we need is two things:

1) A frank acknowledgement that there is a problem. This is VERY slowly coming, but can't be avoided forever. With each of these attacks more people will look to find out what Islam really is all about. But unless there is a consensus that we are really facing a problem nothing can stop jihad. Many civilisations in the past have not taken Islam seriously for a long time. None of those exist today.

2) A willingness to assert our own values and a refusal to compromise on them. If you go and live in a Muslim country you get a very clear idea of what is expected of you, and what the consequences are if you fail to meet them. We need that same determination and clarity. Imagine you lived in Indonesia and you complained that the morning call to prayer of a nearby mosque disturbs your sleep. You would be told if you don't like it, go home, or worse. In Germany, in Duisburg, last month, some Turkish community leaders complained about churches ringing bells on Sunday mornings in their neighbourhood. The local bishop ordered that bells cannot be run unless for special, pre-approved occasions, and then only if the Turkish community agrees. If we loose our cultural identity because of Muslims amongst us, it is as much because we don't care about it as it is about the things Muslims do. It is only when Muslims in Europe understand that they either live here on our terms or otherwise they go elsewhere, that the problem will start to resolve itself.


And yes, it is an existential question, but we do not need violence to address it. We need self-confidence. and honesty.
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Re: Van attack and shooting in Barcelona

Post by sum »

Hello manfred

I think that your approach avoids the crux of the matter. Everything revolves around Islam and those who support and follow it. It is no use whatsoever asserting our own culture and doing all possible to prevent jihad attacks as the ideology and motivation for jihad attacks are still present. Muslim demographics are a problem and the Islamic jihad problem must be tackled before the demographics make it risky and most damaging.

The ideology of Islam must be addressed and the public made aware of its true significance. This will provoke more reaction from muslims and violence will follow just as night follows day. Only the destruction of the Islamic ideology will prevent future war against non-muslims. We must be fully prepared to face Islamic violence and the armed forces strengthened accordingly.

Each country must adopt a dominant position and not rely on co-operation from the muslim community hoping that they will adopt a secular and peaceful approach to society.

A start could be the politicians quoting the Koranic guidance given by the jihadis which explains why the jihadis perpetrated their atrocity. This would encourage more of the public to explore the Koran and ahadith and see for themselves how Islam demands violence and terrorism in order to establish Islamic dominance and sharia.

sum
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Re: Van attack and shooting in Barcelona

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If Muslims saw Western countries as unpleasant to live in, do you still think they would want to stay? Suppose they could not get halal food...
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Re: Van attack and shooting in Barcelona

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Islam is never examined, it is a taboo subject.
Our governments are suppressing any talk that is less than complimentary to Islam.

The social media (Facebook, Tweet) are monitored, offenders are punished.

Michael Stürzenberger: Six Months in Prison for Posting a Photo of a Nazi and the Mufti on Facebook
Today Mr. Stürzenberger was sentenced to six months in prison for posting a photo of a Nazi and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem on his Facebook page.

This was not a photoshop job, mind you. The picture was not digitally altered. It was a simple historical artifact from World War Two.

Six months in the slammer for that.
IMO there is a great deal of Islamophobia, but it is in our leaders.
They are afraid, very afraid of Islam, and dare not anger them.
And of course, there is also the globalist agenda. Important to remember that. Propaganda.

Oxytocin and social norms reduce xenophobia
How can xenophobia be reduced and altruism strengthened? Researchers at University Hospital Bonn have shown in a new study that the bonding hormone oxytocin together with social norms significantly increases the willingness to donate money to refugees in need, even in people who tend to have a skeptical attitude towards migrants. The results are published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS).
The populace is kept ignorant of the facts. Quite a few are willfully ignorant.

It is up to the people to crack open the Quran and self-learn what is Islam. Easier said than done.
Lots and lots of leftist propaganda also clouding the issue.

Frankly, I cannot see any change.

Edit: according to history, the only thing that is stopping Islam's advance is an overwhelming force.
As I have said, it is a zero sum game.
Last edited by pr126 on Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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pr126
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Re: Van attack and shooting in Barcelona

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Caliphate by Tom Kratman
A book on Amazon (Kindle version is free)

I recommend reading the book. Or an least read the first chapter on the web site
"Slavery is a part of Islam . . . Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam." —Sheikh Saleh Al-Fawzan, author of the religious textbook At-Tawhid ("Monotheism") and senior Saudi cleric.

Demography is destiny. In the 22nd century European deathbed demographics have turned the continent over to the more fertile Moslems. Atheism in Europe has been exterminated. Homosexuals are hanged, stoned or crucified. Such Christians as remain are relegated to dhimmitude, a form of second class citizenship. They are denied arms, denied civil rights, denied a voice, and specially taxed via the Koranic yizya. Their sons are taken as conscripted soldiers while their daughters are subject to the depredations of the continent's new masters.

In that world, Petra, a German girl sold into prostitution as a slave at the age of nine to pay her family's yizya, dreams of escape. Unlike most girls of the day, Petra can read. And in her only real possession, her grandmother's diary, a diary detailing the fall of European civilization, Petra has learned of a magic place across the sea: America.

But it will take more than magic to free Petra and Europe from their bonds; it will take guns, superior technology, and a reborn spirit of freedom.
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.
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pr126
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Re: Van attack and shooting in Barcelona

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Islam: an idea to kill and die for.
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Re: Van attack and shooting in Barcelona

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manfred wrote:If Muslims saw Western countries as unpleasant to live in, do you still think they would want to stay? Suppose they could not get halal food...
They have a purpose for being here. Hijra/Jihad. Conquest.
And who would dare forbid halal food? Or not giving in to any demand?
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Re: Van attack and shooting in Barcelona

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Yes, I dare say, we are not ready to discuss such things in general with people. If we cannot agree on small steps, the big radical solutions will surely only receive shaking heads and shouts of "racism" and such.

If you live in Saudi Arabia you cannot have a bacon sandwich and a glass of beer; you will be publicly lashed for both. If you sell any such things, it is much worse. Muslims have no problems telling others that in their sphere of influence you better live by their rules. If we finally find the confidence to do exactly the same, we would be getting somewhere. If not, the "war" is already lost.

I don't think defeating jihad is, even at this late stage, impossible or even particularly difficult. The main problem is that we simple do not have the will to do that.

You mention the guy with the mufti photo. It is in fact common knowledge that the grand mufti of Jerusalem saw in Hitler a chance to remove the Jews from Palestine, and he tried hard to achieve that. It is also readily readable what Islam teaches about Jews, and what the Nazis thought of Islam. To state what is simply factual, it seems, can land you n prison. This saying more about how scared European governments are running about Islam. It is shocking that we have censorship again in Germany after 70 years. The right response should be a million German repeat posts on Facebook.

My hope is that the Eastern European nations will eventually lead the way in this issue.

Btw, I have posted that picture multiple times, and so have many historians in the UK...
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Re: Van attack and shooting in Barcelona

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manfred wrote:My hope is that the Eastern European nations will eventually lead the way in this issue.
You hope Eastern European nations will lead the way? Surely you don't mean this way.


"Czech Republic: We'd Rather Risk EU Penalties Than be Forced to Take Migrants"

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/04 ... -migrants/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"Hungarian Leader Rebuked for Saying Muslim Migrants Must Be Blocked 'to Keep Europe Christian'"

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/04/worl ... stian.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"Poland slams door on refugees
Warsaw says its people’s safety comes first"


http://www.politico.eu/article/poland-s ... ta-szydlo/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


How about Israel, should we look to Israel on this matter?

"One country that won't be taking Syrian refugees: Israel"

http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


On the other board you said that you "prefer the Jewish model on integration... be a respectful guest and make yourself useful in some way, but don't altogether forget who you are."

Do you prefer the Israeli immigration model? The Law of Return is framed on the basis of ethnicity.


Are you prepared to condemn these nations for abandoning "our principles"?
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" ~Carl Sagan
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Re: Van attack and shooting in Barcelona

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The oxytocin story is nicely satirised by Rod Liddle in the Spectator.
Take oxytocin and you too can be a liberal halfwit
<snip>
I checked the effects of an oxytocin overdose — you tell me if you think the following egregious states strike a chord when you watch liberals marching through London to protest about something or other: mania, hypersensitivity, memory impairment, intense confusion, shakiness, stupidity, convulsions and restlessness. I reckon I may be on to something. Perhaps if we gave liberals oxytocin inhibitors they would end up being at least borderline rational, able to debate the issue without screaming ‘they are human beings!’ and sobbing uncontrollably.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/08/tak ... l-halfwit/
As for Barcelona, recent news will prove, to the satisfaction of the oxytocin-saturated luvvies, that it was nothing to do with Islam: the ringleader was an imam. "Radicalised in jail by a jihadi", they claim.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah
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Re: Van attack and shooting in Barcelona

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Are you prepared to condemn these nations for abandoning "our principles"?
Oh for goodness sake, will you stop going round twisting around everything I say.

For the tenth time. I have no issue with a temporary ban on immigration. I do have an issue with demonising ALL Muslims and refusing to help any Muslim purely because of their religion. And I have also already said, many times, that help does not have to be in the form of allowing people to live here.

And the reasons why these countries do not want the migrants Mrs Merkel had invited are a) they did not invite them b) they don't know who they are c) they don't want to be told by the EU how to run their own immigration policy. It is despicable of you to suggest that the people or the governments of these countries would not see any need to help those in genuine need though. They merely react to Mrs Merkel's knee-jerk of allowing millions of people into the EU without any checks and balances.

Here is another way you twist what I said:
On the other board you said that you "prefer the Jewish model on integration... be a respectful guest and make yourself useful in some way, but don't altogether forget who you are."

Do you prefer the Israeli immigration model? The Law of Return is framed on the basis of ethnicity.
Israeli and Jewish are related but the the same thing. I was talking about the way Jewish people generally integrate WHEN THEY immigrate in other countries. The law of return is about people immigrating INTO Israel. And to suggest that Israel, of all nations has a racist immigration policy is ludicrous. Maybe you are not aware that there are Arabs in Israel? Also, perhaps you do not know that you can also settle in Israel if you do not have Jewish roots.

https://momentumisrael.com/non-jews-israel/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You would be in fact most welcome, specially if you have skills needed in the country and you are willing to integrate and learn the language. In other words, the law of return does not exclude other people, but instead they are subject to immigration CONTROL, you know, the thing I keep telling you about....

Kindly stop your trolling.
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Re: Van attack and shooting in Barcelona

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As for Barcelona, recent news will prove, to the satisfaction of the oxytocin-saturated luvvies, that it was nothing to do with Islam: the ringleader was an imam. "Radicalised in jail by a jihadi", they claim.
As an Imam, he obviously misunderstands Islam's peaceful teachings.
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Re: Van attack and shooting in Barcelona

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Some discussion on Sky News just now: jihadis wearing FAKE suicide vests: were they seeking suicide by cop martyrdom? If so, why? Was it the virgins or the prospect of life in jail?
Which led me to wonder: surely Allah would know the vest was fake and so know that it was suicide by cop. Wouldn't that ensure no virgins, at the very least? Why didn't they just go down fighting?
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah
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Re: Van attack and shooting in Barcelona

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Fernando wrote:Some discussion on Sky News just now: jihadis wearing FAKE suicide vests: were they seeking suicide by cop martyrdom? If so, why? Was it the virgins or the prospect of life in jail?
Which led me to wonder: surely Allah would know the vest was fake and so know that it was suicide by cop. Wouldn't that ensure no virgins, at the very least? Why didn't they just go down fighting?
To drive terror into the hearts of the kuffar. Psyop.
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.
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