manfred wrote:It says something about Islam, that it needs lame parlour tricks to "prove" to the gullible the "divine origin" of the Qur'an. It also is a tacit admission that the plain words of the Qur'an are inadequate for that purpose, in fact more of a hindrance, as anyone actually reading it cannot help but to be repulsed by it.
MattS wrote:Sam,
I am not quite sure I understand your question, but let me just say that I do understand the counts of the Arabic letters used in Rashad Khalifa's numerology very well - I spent years verifying every letter, and every claim made. I am well aware of the arguments, and their flaws. The entire counterargument is much too long to go into in a forum post - and this is why I published a book on this very thing - so naturally I cannot cover everything, but here are a few problems with the so-called "miraculous letters:"
1) The verses that are initialed are translated in a deceptive way. For example, we have the below:
T. S. M. These (letters) constitute proofs of this clarifying scripture. – Quran 26:1-2
However, there is no indication in the Arabic grammar that this verse at all refers to the letters. In fact, notice how Dr. Khalifa had to insert parentheses to explain what his interpretation was? Nearly every Muslim scholar in the world (who know Arabic much better than I) agree that the statements after the letters refer to the verses of the Quran itself, because it is the Quran that was Muhammad's miracle.
2) The way each letter is counted is arbitrary. For example, Arabic does not allow certain double letter combinations - such as two Alefs or two Yas in succession. To take the place of this double letter, a Hamza is inserted.
When counting the letters, the Submitters count every Alef with a Hamza as a double Alef to reach their counts. They say "this is the rule in Arabic - this is a double Alef."
However, when counting Yas with a Hamza, they count this as a single Ya (see, for example, verse 36:18, which has a double Ya but is only counted as a single Ya in official counts). They say "this is because the other letter is a Hamza, so even though it is technically a double Ya, we only need to count it once!"
Can you see how silly this is? Some might even go so far as to say deceptive?
As another example of arbitrary counting, to reach a multiple of 19, you must sum up the counts of every Ha and Mim in the chapters initialed with these letters AND exclude every other chapter that contains Ha and Mim in their groups, even though there is a common letter. However, in order to reach a multiple of 19 with the initial Saad (on chapter 38), we must combine this with all of the other counts from chapters containing Saad in their initial group (even though none of these initial groups match, they just share one common letter). This is not a consistent method of counting, and destroys any statistical significance found. Unless EVERY chapter is counted the same exact way, there is no claim that can be made. There is nothing logical or mathematical in changing your method of calculation in the middle of a calculation in order to reach a conclusion.
3) I wrote an entire, fake, holy text where I was easily able to replicate (and surpass) the letter counts (as well as every other claimed miracle related to this code). If it was so miraculous, how could a mere human imitate it?
4) This is probably the most important point: The letter counts, and the claims made about them, are manipulated.
Dr. Khalifa counted the letters wrong, plain and simple. The Submitters openly admit this, and as a result they had to perform a recount in 2002 due to many mistakes being made. They say that "there weren't THAT many errors" and that errors were only found with two letters. What they fail to mention is that the two letters that they found mistaken counts on are the two most common Quranic initials (Alef and Lam). They also fail to mention that to make something a multiple of nineteen, one needs to make a maximum of nine additions or subtractions, at most. This follows from complex number theory, but it is very easily verified: Pick ANY random, whole number and I guarantee you that you need to at most subtract or add nine to make it a multiple of 19.
What this meant for the Submitters was they had to compare multiple copies of the Quran, then pick-and-choose what letters they needed to add and subtract from a combination of different readings in order to "make the code work." This was not done in any scientific way (even though it was claimed that it was - their method was very flawed, and not at all scientific. Instead, they made the evidence fit their conclusion, instead of the other way around). They state that "we only had to make a couple of changes, so Dr. Khalifa's counts were ALMOST right..." but here's the thing: A "couple" of changes is very significant, when you consider at most nine needed to be made to "expose the miraculous code."
To show you an example of this deceptive manipulation, the Submitters stated that the Syrian reading of the Quran was the "least corrupted" that they could find (i.e., it conformed to the code the most), and so they made most of their selections from this reading. In verse 2:2, the Syrian reading had this word:
ذٰلِكَ
While the edition the Submitters used originally had an extra Alef in their spelling of the word:
ذَٲلِكَ
The Submitters decided to change their spelling. However, in verse 13:3, the Syrian Quran has رَوَٲسِىَ while the Submitters decided to stick with their original spelling of رَوٰسِىَ . Why? Because if they remained consistent in their changes, this would violate the expectation that the letters will appear in multiples of 19. This is NOT my claim, but this is taken directly from the "scientific standards" set by the Submitters while doing their recount / editing. It is said that this Miracle prevents the Quran from being tampered with because any change will immediately cause many multiples of 19 to disappear. Therefore, they specifically set out to alter the Quran to cause the MOST multiples of 19 to appear, under the guise of preserving the original text... however, this is, as I said above, modifying the evidence to fit a conclusion - in other words, this is termed "fraud."
I hope this helped clarify my points. I know that it is difficult to have your beliefs questioned, and can be even harder to accept that you might have been deceived, but I ask you to please examine the facts. The so-called "miraculous letter counts" are nothing more than smoke and mirrors.
The modern number system was introduced to Europe by Leonardo of Pisa in the twelfth century, who studied for a while in Tetouan, Morocco, where he learnt about the "Arabic" number system, which in turn had been brought into the Arab world from India
.In ancient Babylon they used base 60, with a sub-base of 10. We still have remnants of that old system in the way we deal with time and with angles for example. It really was very neat, and the ancient Babylonians are the ones who invented place value. Compared to our system, it is little more tricky to first get your head around, but is makes many operations with common fractions very much simpler
In many South American cultures it was base 20
There is said to exist archaeological evidence which shows the use of algebra during Gupta period,the golden period of Hindu rule around 5th century A.D.Did something similar exist in Semitic Babylon?
However, he did not "invent algebra". He had access to mostly Hindu sources, some of which interestingly repeat ideas also found in Babylon, so the there have been some cultural exchange.
Now did the Hindu sources improve in any way upon the mathematical ideas of Babylon.
SAM wrote:My question whether you know anything about numerology calculations patterns, or astronomy based on the Arabic alphabet which contains or consists of 28 letters. For example: Alif = 1, Baa =2 Jiim-=3...Kaaf =20, Laam =30.... Qaaf =100...Ghayn = 1000 and so on..
MattS wrote:, this is a challenge issued by God saying “no one can ever replicate the intricate mathematics that I have interlaced into the Quran.” In my book, I have a chapter dedicated to a fake holy text that I wrote. It is ten chapters long, and within it are 361 (19x19) verses. It is a completely coherent text, with religious laws and duties spelled out (all made up of course), written in verse (just like the Quran), and has 282 multiples of 19 within it that imitate the ones found in the Quran both in form and content. To put this into perspective, my book has 361 verses and 282 facts
panis wrote:MattS wrote:, this is a challenge issued by God saying “no one can ever replicate the intricate mathematics that I have interlaced into the Quran.” In my book, I have a chapter dedicated to a fake holy text that I wrote. It is ten chapters long, and within it are 361 (19x19) verses. It is a completely coherent text, with religious laws and duties spelled out (all made up of course), written in verse (just like the Quran), and has 282 multiples of 19 within it that imitate the ones found in the Quran both in form and content. To put this into perspective, my book has 361 verses and 282 facts
Hi,
Can you post here these ten chapters?
Do you know these ?
https://web.archive.org/web/20160111123 ... ikeit.com/
Alexmencorn wrote:Id say the language of creation and order is mathematics, but the language of G-d is not discernible to us. Math, with all its grandeur and expansiveness, still has not explained the most basic of relationships, that which relates the soul to the physical body. Indeed, it cannot quantify the soul at all.
where is the letter "P".? It does not exist in Arabic alphabet. The very reason Farsi language had to add it to their own.SAM wrote:I don't buy Rashad Khalifa's numerology as the Mathematical Miracle of the Quran.
My question whether you know anything about numerology calculations patterns, or astronomy based on the Arabic alphabet which contains or consists of 28 letters. For example: Alif = 1, Baa =2 Jiim-=3...Kaaf =20, Laam =30.... Qaaf =100...Ghayn = 1000 and so on..
There is “P” in the Arabic Jawi alphabet used for Bahasa language.Hombre wrote:where is the letter "P".? It does not exist in Arabic alphabet. The very reason Farsi language had to add it to their own.SAM wrote:I don't buy Rashad Khalifa's numerology as the Mathematical Miracle of the Quran.
My question whether you know anything about numerology calculations patterns, or astronomy based on the Arabic alphabet which contains or consists of 28 letters. For example: Alif = 1, Baa =2 Jiim-=3...Kaaf =20, Laam =30.... Qaaf =100...Ghayn = 1000 and so on..
MattS wrote:I don't know if anyone is still interested in this, and it took a long time - but I do finally have a video on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqv8Jy1X91E
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