Keep killing each other, with no end

Does God exist? Is Allah God? Creation vs. evolution.
Is Religion needed? Logic vs. faith. Morality and ethics.
frankie
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Re: Keep killing each other, with no end

Post by frankie »

Nosuperstition wrote:
frankie wrote:Nosuperstiton:
When Jesus said in the N.T that he has come not to abolish but to fulfill them,he is endorsing the instigation of wars of divinely approved conquest.
No he didn't.Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law (of Moses),The Ten Commandments.The heart of this Law is to love God and neighbour.Jesus himself had heated arguments with the religious clerics of his day,who had totally mis-read their own scriptures,and were totally mis-leading their own people.Jesus pointed this out to them,which didn't go down too well.

Perhaps reading the four "Gospels"would provide a more enlightened view.
Jesus said he had come to fulfill not just the Law but also the words and acts of Prophets of Old Testament.
Deuteronomy 20:13-14
When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies.
Now if the prophets of O.T themselves uttered words such as above where is love present in such acts?

Also Jesus said love your neighbour as you love yourself?The question is whether you would love yourself as a Christian or as a non-Christian?If you love yourself as a Christian,you would also love to see your neighbour who is a Christian as you sincerely believe that only a believer equals believer and love of a believer towards a believer would be equal.
Nosuperstition:

Youn bring up some good points.

Deuteronomy is a collection of stories,put into an historical setting.The chosen people of God,under Moses direction were a people travelling to a land promised to them,and whilst travelling came across hostilites,which they had to endure and triumph.Throughout Deuteronomy the people of Israel are continually warned to obey Gods commandments or incur the consequences.This is the reason for so many prophets,to keep reminding the people of Israel to keep Gods Commandments,which they kept failing to do.

The stories in the O.T.then, are not in themselves illustrating a requirement to live like this for all time,they show the progression and evolution of the Jewish race,until the prophesied Messiah,Jesus.
The question is whether you would love yourself as a Christian or as a non-Christian?
Jesus has an answer for this.We see the answer in the parable of the Good Samaritan.No follower of Jesus can call himself a Christian if he discriminates his actions towards his fellow man.

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StrongLove
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Re: Keep killing each other, with no end

Post by StrongLove »

What was the topic of this thread again?
" The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men."

Winston Churchill

sum
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Re: Keep killing each other, with no end

Post by sum »

Hello Nosuperstition

There is no escaping the fact that Jesus did not command war and killing with people who disagreed with his teachings.

sum

Nosuperstition
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Re: Keep killing each other, with no end

Post by Nosuperstition »

"The Lord knoweth them that are his." This verse was used by the Catholic Church during the inquisition to justify killing those suspected of heresy. (Kill them all, for `the Lord knows them that are His'." ) 2:19
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html
Last edited by Nosuperstition on Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

Nosuperstition
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Re: Keep killing each other, with no end

Post by Nosuperstition »

sum wrote:Hello Nosuperstition

There is no escaping the fact that Jesus did not command war and killing with people who disagreed with his teachings.

sum
Jesus might not have commanded war against heretics but he seems to have instigated wars of conquest against non-Chritians by his endorsment of the actions of the Prophets of Old Testament.
“You will know them by their fruits” (Matthew 7:15-20).
It is said that either Jesus or the apostles said that a tree that does not bear a proper fruit i.e bears a bad fruit must be cut down.I leave it to you to interpret the afore mentioned information.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

sum
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Re: Keep killing each other, with no end

Post by sum »

Hello Nosuperstition

We certainly differ. You seem to want to show that Christianity is violent in nature and that Jesus opened the path towards violence by his statements. He never specifically encouraged or demanded war He never set the example of fighting and killing. He told Peter to put his sword away.

Power struggles in the past by Christians used warped interpretations of the New Testament and warped the words of Jesus to support their violence.

If you want to continue to claim that Christianity - the words of Jesus - is violent then there is nothing anyone can say that will persuade you otherwise.

sum

Nosuperstition
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Re: Keep killing each other, with no end

Post by Nosuperstition »

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.◄ Matthew 7:19 ►
Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit - What a terrible sentence is this against Christless pastors, and Christless hearers! Every tree that produceth not good fruit, εκκοπτεται, is to be now cut down; the act of excision is now taking place: the curse of the Lord is even now on the head and the heart of every false teacher, and impenitent hearer.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit,.... Every preacher and teacher that does not bring the Gospel of Christ with him, and plainly and faithfully preach it to the people, sooner or later,

is hewn down: however he may have appeared as a tall lofty cedar, and have carried it with a high hand against Christ and his Gospel, spoke "great swelling words of vanity", and behaved with much "loftiness" and "haughtiness"; yet the time comes on, when all this is bowed and made low, "and the Lord alone is exalted": such preachers are either cut off from the churches of Christ, or hewn down by death,

and cast into the fire; into the fire of hell; into the lake of fire and brimstone, "where the beast and false prophet shall be".
http://bible.cc/matthew/7-19.htm

The trees here stand for pastors/preachers and bad fruits stand for bad Christians.Clearly for the Catholics the Protestant and heretic pastors are bad trees and for the Protestants it is vice versa.Thus seeds of hatred manifested between different denominations and resulted in devastating wars.
Last edited by Nosuperstition on Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

Nosuperstition
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Re: Keep killing each other, with no end

Post by Nosuperstition »

sum wrote:Hello Nosuperstition

We certainly differ. You seem to want to show that Christianity is violent in nature and that Jesus opened the path towards violence by his statements. He never specifically encouraged or demanded war He never set the example of fighting and killing. He told Peter to put his sword away.

Power struggles in the past by Christians used warped interpretations of the New Testament and warped the words of Jesus to support their violence.

If you want to continue to claim that Christianity - the words of Jesus - is violent then there is nothing anyone can say that will persuade you otherwise.

sum
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'"
http://bible.cc/luke/19-27.htm

Christ might not have resorted to atleast a single act of violence in his life but words attributed to him are not non-violent. Christianity as a religion is not just about Christ,but is also about what was written in the divinely inspired word of God,the Bible.

Christ threw out the vendors in the Temple Mount saying that those businesses are a sacrilege to the holiness of his father's worship place.Some might consider that as a violent act.
Last edited by Nosuperstition on Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

Nosuperstition
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Re: Keep killing each other, with no end

Post by Nosuperstition »

StrongLove wrote:What was the topic of this thread again?
I completely agree with what you have stated previously that it is insane to fight and kill one another for the sake of religion.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

frankie
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Re: Keep killing each other, with no end

Post by frankie »

Nosuperstition:
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.
Your above quote from one of many of Jesus's parables, Luke 19:11-27 is often used by Muslims to "prove"their claims that Jesus advocated violence,which he didn't,as you freely use another quote, at the end of which Jesus tells us clearly a false prophet will be known by their fruits.These false prophets need not be biblical,as human history has shown,by throwing up numerous men that claim to have the "truth" which people seek,which lead ultimately to their un-timely deaths,e.g.Jim Jones,David Koresh,Mohammed.

The violence perpetrated by Catholics and Protestents was driven by people who not only mis-read their teachings,but used these teachings to gain power and control through politics using religious doctine as a cover to do so.
Christianity as a religion is not just about Christ,but is also about what was written in the divinely inspired word of God,the Bible.
Christians use Jesus as their role model,not O.T.teachings,which when looked at in context, and as a whole,are not detrimental to peaceful co-existance within humanity.It is only when humans take Jesus's words and example out of context to use for their own selfish ends,when trouble starts.

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StrongLove
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Re: Keep killing each other, with no end

Post by StrongLove »

One of my favorite ways to determine what is really going on, whether someone is telling the truth is to "Ignore everything they say & watch what they do".
" The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men."

Winston Churchill

Nosuperstition
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Re: Keep killing each other, with no end

Post by Nosuperstition »

frankie wrote:
Deuteronomy is a collection of stories,put into an historical setting.The chosen people of God,under Moses direction were a people travelling to a land promised to them,and whilst travelling came across hostilites,which they had to endure and triumph.Throughout Deuteronomy the people of Israel are continually warned to obey Gods commandments or incur the consequences.This is the reason for so many prophets,to keep reminding the people of Israel to keep Gods Commandments,which they kept failing to do.

The stories in the O.T.then, are not in themselves illustrating a requirement to live like this for all time,they show the progression and evolution of the Jewish race,until the prophesied Messiah,Jesus.
diotima64 wrote:Who says the covenant was broken? Jesus expressly said, he is not out to ABOLISH the law, but to fulfill it.
Christians see this as a NEW covenant, existing beside the old one, and valid for ALL of humanity, when the old one is specifically for the Jews.

And anyway : Time as such is a HUMAN category. God is ETERNAL, which means timeless, not merely everlasting. Past, present, future are meaningless concepts "sub specie aeternitatis".

Oh - and as a further side-note: As Ibrahim is recognized as a muslim prophet... would your reasoning not ALSO apply to Islam?
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... &start=540

dio is a devout practicing Catholic .Catholics in general take their doctrines from above and do not interpret scriptures by their own.The O.T and its content is still relevant according to her.Now put to sword all men is concerned with dealing with cities far off promised land not just cities en route to the promised land.Even if it is concerned with only cities enroute to promised land why could not God rain down mannah from heaven and guide the Israelites to the promised land in a route that does not touch upon any intermediary cities or guide them such that there is no need to touch intermediary cities?

Who attacked whom first , is it the people of far off cities on Jews or vice versa?Show me a Biblical verse that says that proves your point that cities enroute from Egypt to Canaan or those passed in the 40 years wilderness were hostile to the Jews.
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise”. Galatians 3:26-29
Supercessionism: (a.k.a. Replacement Theology). This is the theological concept that, because the vast majority of Jews in the first century CE did not accept Jesus as their Messiah, God unilaterally terminated his covenants with the Jewish people and transferred them to the followers of Christianity. It relegates Judaism to an inferior position and recognizes Christianity as the 'true' or 'spiritual' Israel. This concept was first developed by Justin Martyr (circa 100 to 165 CE) and Irenaeus of Lyon (circa 130 to 200 CE). It was largely accepted within the church by the 4th century.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/gl_r.htm
Various forms of [/bsupersessionism have been the mainstream Christian interpretation of the New Testament since the inception of all three main historical traditions within Christianity — Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersessi ... ch_fathers

Jews or Israelites could enslave people of foreign origin as per their covenant with God and had other discriminatory laws against the gentiles by being God's chosen people and by the doctrine of supercession all those rights have now passed onto the Christians.God promised to multiply the seed of Abraham unto huge numbers.From where such multitudes will be provided for is not a mystery .It is by conquest of far off cities and areas.Afterall mannah is not always going to rain down from heaven.
Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.
http://bible.cc/psalms/2-8.htm

After the arrival of the messiah a.k.a Jesus, God promised to give nations unto the bounds of earth his possession if he asks for it.Put another way Christians followers of Christ can take nations for inheritance which is simplistically not possible without wars of conquest.
When the first English settlers moved into Indian land in Massachusetts Bay and were resisted, the violence escalated into war with the Pequot Indians. The killing of Indians was seen as approved by God, the taking of land as commanded by the Bible. The Puritans cited one of the Psalms, which says: "Ask of me, and I shall give thee, the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the Earth for thy possession."
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/ ... alism.html
Last edited by Nosuperstition on Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

frankie
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Re: Keep killing each other, with no end

Post by frankie »

Nosuperstition:
Your allegations against Christianity are put forward as strong any Muslim,that's a rather strange strategy for an alleged Hindu turned atheist to take.What does it matter to you whether either the O.T. or N.T.is true or not, why put so much time and energy into a subject you totally reject?

Should your time then be better employed in discussing a subject which IS proved by past and present history to be detrimental to the peaceful co-existance between all of humanity, to either prove or disprove its claims as being from the same divine source as the one you demonise?

The title of this thread is about Muslims killing their own kind in an orgy of slaughter throughout their own lands,but has evolved into something that bears no relation to this subject.Your questions on Christianity have so far been answered on this thread,to such a point where another subject is being started.I would suggest you commence this other subject on another section to continue it.

Nosuperstition
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Re: Keep killing each other, with no end

Post by Nosuperstition »

StrongLove wrote:
Nosuperstition wrote:Yet the casualities seem to be negligible when compared with what happened in the 30 years war in Germany when Protestants and Catholics slashed each other's throats over issues of dogmas and the complete uproot of previous heresies by the Catholic Church with genocides of millions.

Citing previous homicidal stupidity is a defence? I don't know how ignorant the average German was in the 1600's but I'm willing to bet that it's close to the average muslim now. Only the ignorant & or emotional disturbed kill another human being over religion.

sum is right. Christians kill IN SPITE of their pacifist teachings & muslims often kill BECAUSE of their violent teachings.
StrongLove wrote:One of my favorite ways to determine what is really going on, whether someone is telling the truth is to "Ignore everything they say & watch what they do".
As my colleague Rob Boston noted in a Liberty magazine article, the city’s public schools were Protestant-dominated and featured recitation of (the Protestant version of) the Lord’s Prayer, readings from the (Protestant) King James Version of the Bible, and singing of (Protestant) hymns. When Catholic Bishop Francis Patrick Kenrick objected, the school agreed to excuse Catholic students from the exercises.

Protestant extremists were outraged at this nod toward diversity, and full-scale Protestant-Catholic riots erupted. Many city residents were injured and killed, and houses and church buildings were burned. The militia had to be called in to restore order.

What Philadelphia Shouldn’t Forget: The City Of Brotherly Love Rioted Over Religion In Public Schools
Sounds like something that would happen on the streets of Saudi Arabia today.

Hatred is born from ignorance. We need more education to show that atheists are people too and maybe soon, we will be less disliked
.
http://www.secularleft.us/archives/2011/05

Jesus was a pacifist to the extent that he asked his father to forgive his killers who sinned unknowingly not those who sinned knowingly.But he was not a pacifist when he expelled the businessmen in the Temple Mount premises.It is because of full-fledged secular education that the West is now free from religious /sectarian riots.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

Nosuperstition
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Re: Keep killing each other, with no end

Post by Nosuperstition »

marduk wrote:Yes, take a tour through Israel then take a tour through Syria and see which is better. At least one faction of Jews don't slaughter another.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=12074&hilit=Aryan&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

50% of Israel's Jews are educated atheists hence no killings of rival religious factions.So if some significant % of Pakistanis too turn to education and atheism,no more factional killings I suppose.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

time to wake up
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Re: Keep killing each other, with no end

Post by time to wake up »

Nosuperstition wrote:

Jesus was a pacifist to the extent that he asked his father to forgive his killers who sinned unknowingly not those who sinned knowingly.But he was not a pacifist when he expelled the businessmen in the Temple Mount premises.It is because of full-fledged secular education that the West is now free from religious /sectarian riots.
No, this is incorrect

Jesus commanded his followers to forgive, period. Just as He showed us on the cross. That was not a weakness, but a strength — and such forgiveness takes far more strength than most of us can easily manage, particularly when we are wronged or subject to injustice. Human nature cries out for justice but in Jesus, God shows his standard is mercy.

Where Jesus seemingly cast out the moneylenders of the temple, it's worth noting that there is symbolism present, the sacrificing of animals as a substitute for your sins was custom, however though people could bring their own animals they were invariably rejected by the priests on technicality, instead people had to buy at approved animals sold at inflated prices for their sacrifice. Likewise, the temple tax of one half shekel itself, had to be paid for in temple coinage on a hefty exchange rate hike from both jewish or Roman coinage. In short, this was a scam, a nice little earner for the temple authorities, and the people were being ripped off.

Jesus drives them out (actually more than anything this is the reason the religious leaders wanted him dead) He in fact cleanses the Temple in fulfilment of prophesy in Malachi 3. The choice was simple, on entering Jerusalem, Jesus was expected as the Messiah to confront the Romans at the fort of Antonia and drive them out, instead he cleanses the temple opposite (the two were very close), that's how he was initially hailed as a conquering hero only to be rejected just a very short time later by the religious leaders those whose hopes were shattered—there is no one so vengeful as someone who's expectations are disappointed.

The ultimate irony was that Jesus, The Lamb of God, by whose sacrifice all men can be reconciled with God, chose freely to lay his life down, and we who except His merciful sacrifice on our behalf, also accept it freely. Money simply does not enter the equation for us, only for Judas, who also engineered a showdown over coinage.

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StrongLove
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Re: Keep killing each other, with no end

Post by StrongLove »

Nosuperstition wrote:
marduk wrote:Yes, take a tour through Israel then take a tour through Syria and see which is better. At least one faction of Jews don't slaughter another.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=12074&hilit=Aryan&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

50% of Israel's Jews are educated atheists hence no killings of rival religious factions.So if some significant % of Pakistanis too turn to education and atheism,no more factional killings I suppose.
Is this forum about atheists vs non-atheists? We divide our strength & waist our time with this kind of crap. Meanwhile those who want to force us to submit are laughing.

It doesn't matter if you are religious or non-religious. If you try to push your point of view you not only weaken this group & website but the entire anti-islamonazi movement.

There is a place on this site if you want to debate about God or his nonexistent but please don't divide our strength. You are inadvertently helping the islamic supremacists.
" The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men."

Winston Churchill

Nosuperstition
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Re: Keep killing each other, with no end

Post by Nosuperstition »

time to wake up wrote:Jesus commanded his followers to forgive, period. Just as He showed us on the cross. That was not a weakness, but a strength — and such forgiveness takes far more strength than most of us can easily manage, particularly when we are wronged or subject to injustice. Human nature cries out for justice but in Jesus, God shows his standard is mercy.
Jesus said father forgive them for they know not what they are doing..If the other side knows or is perceived to know that they are doing wrong,they are not to be forgiven.Murder and rape are perceived wrong in any culture.So in such cases there might be no forgiveness.Anyway Christianity is more than what Jesus said and involves what is said in the O.T and N.T parts of the Bible
paige wrote: The NT does not rule out self-defence and a lot of Christianity theology does accept the Jewish Just War teachings.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... ht=#300818" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wonder what is stopping the Scandinavians from declaring just fight against immigrant rapists.Might be they feel too cosy in their comforts and care not about plight of their fellow human beings.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

IsItReallyIslam
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Re: Keep killing each other, with no end

Post by IsItReallyIslam »

frankie wrote:Nosuperstition:
Your allegations against Christianity are put forward as strong any Muslim,that's a rather strange strategy for an alleged Hindu turned atheist to take.What does it matter to you whether either the O.T. or N.T.is true or not, why put so much time and energy into a subject you totally reject?

Should your time then be better employed in discussing a subject which IS proved by past and present history to be detrimental to the peaceful co-existance between all of humanity, to either prove or disprove its claims as being from the same divine source as the one you demonise?

The title of this thread is about Muslims killing their own kind in an orgy of slaughter throughout their own lands,but has evolved into something that bears no relation to this subject.Your questions on Christianity have so far been answered on this thread,to such a point where another subject is being started.I would suggest you commence this other subject on another section to continue it.
Frankie, no matter how much you want to forget the past of christianity but it has been replete with violence, persecution, genocide etc. Your angst here is originating from the beating christianity gets in europe and the west in general. That fear of loosing control on the bastion of christianity makes you feel warm towards atheists or pagan religion followes just because they may be enemies of Islam. Otherwise you have no sympathy for them and bring out knife to convert them into Christianity however if others do it you blame them and want to throw them out of your society under the pretext of terrorism. Remember Christ said FORGIVE. As many here have tried hard to explain, he did not add any conditions to that. If you are even a half decent christian then you would forgive Islam and some Muslims who have forgotten the core message of Islam.

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enceladus
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Re: Keep killing each other, with no end

Post by enceladus »

StrongLove wrote:
(snip)

There is a place on this site if you want to debate about God or his nonexistent but please don't divide our strength. You are inadvertently helping the islamic supremacists.
I agree whole-heartedly.

Someone on another forum put it best. "When I am at the barricades in the street, I don't care if the person alongside me is Christian, atheist, Buddhist, Jewish, Hindu, Taoist or whatever. All I care about is that he is *not* Muslim."
My feelings exactly.
- enceladus
Undermining Islam -
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15110

Refuting "divine Quran" -
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=11329

Refuting a Quran verse -
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13098

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