Pleasant surprise - I thought that construction was banned

[iffo]

http://www.christianpost.com/news/pakis ... ion-62658/

[enceladus]

Interesting, but I do wonder how long it will exist before a few thugs come along and burn it down. Just my less-than-optimistic side showing there.....
- enceladus

[marduk]

The Pakistan Penal Code usually called PPC is a penal code for all offences charged in Pakistan. It was originally prepared by Lord Macaulay with a great consultation in 1860 on the behalf of the Government of British India as the Indian Penal Code. After the partition of India in 1947, Pakistan inherited the same code and subsequently after several amendments in different governments,it is now mixture of Islamic and English Law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Penal_Code

XV
OF OFFENCES RELATING TO RELIGION
295. Injuring or defiling place of worship, with Intent to insult the religion of any class:
Whoever destroys, damages or defiles any place of worship, or any object held sacred by any class of persons with the intention of thereby insulting the religion of any class of persons or with the knowledge that any class of persons is likely to consider such destruction damage or defilement as an insult to their religion. shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to two years, or with fine, or with both.

106[
295-A. Deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by insulting Its religion or religious beliefs:
Whoever, with deliberate and malicious intention of outraging the 'religious feelings of any class of the citizens of Pakistan, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations insults the religion or the religious beliefs of that class, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to ten years, or with fine, or with both.

295-B. Defiling, etc., of Holy Qur'an:
Whoever wilfully defiles, damages or desecrates a copy of the Holy Qur'an or of an extract therefrom or uses it in any derogatory manner or for any unlawful purpose shall be punishable with imprisonment for life.

295-C. Use of derogatory remarks, etc., in respect of the Holy Prophet:
Whoever by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation or by any imputation, innuendo, or insinuation, directly or indirectly, defiles the sacred name of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) shall be punished with death, or imprisonment for life, and shall also be liable to fine.

296. Disturbing religious assembly:
Whoever voluntarily causes disturbance to any assembly lawfully engaged in the performance of religious worship, or religious ceremonies, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to one year, or with fine, or with both.

297. Trespassing on burial places, etc.:
Whoever, with the intention of wounding the feelings of any person, or of insulting the religion of any person, or with the knowledge that the feelings of any person are likely to be wounded, or that the religion of any person is likely to be insulted thereby, commits any trespass in any place of worship or on any place of sculpture, or any place set apart for the performance of funeral rites or as a, depository for the remains of the dead, or offers any indignity to any human corpse or causes disturbance to any persons assembled for the performance of funeral ceremonies, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to one year, or with fine, or with both.

298. Uttering words, etc., with deliberate intent to wound religious feelings:
Whoever, with the deliberate intention of wounding the religious feelings of any person, utters any word or makes any sound in the hearing of that person or makes any gesture in the sight of that person or places any object in the sight of that person, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to one year or with fine, or with both.

298-A. Use of derogatory remarks, etc., in respect of holy personages:
Whoever by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation, or by any imputation, innuendo or insinuation, directly or indirectly, defiles the sacred name of any wife (Ummul Mumineen), or members of the family (Ahle-bait), of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), or any of the righteous Caliphs (Khulafa-e-Rashideen) or companions (Sahaaba) of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years, or with fine, or with both.

298-B. Misuse of epithets, descriptions and titles, etc., reserved for certain holy personages or places:
(1) Any person of the Quadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves 'Ahmadis' or by any other name who by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation-
(a) refers to or addresses, any person, other than a Caliph or companion of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), as "Ameer-ul-Mumineen", "Khalifatul- Mumineen", Khalifa-tul-Muslimeen", "Sahaabi" or "Razi Allah Anho";
(b) refers to, or addresses, any person, other than a wife of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), as "Ummul-Mumineen";
(c) refers to, or addresses, any person, other than a member of the family "Ahle-bait" of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), as "Ahle-bait"; or
(d) refers to, or names, or calls, his place of worship a "Masjid";
shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years, and shall also be liable to fine.

(2) Any person of the Qaudiani group or Lahori group (who call themselves "Ahmadis" or by any other name) who by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation refers to the mode or form of call to prayers followed by his faith as "Azan", or recites Azan as used by the Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years, and shall also be liable to fine.


298-C. Person of Quadiani group, etc., calling himself a Muslim or preaching or propagating his faith:
Any person of the Quadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves 'Ahmadis' or by any other name), who directly or indirectly, poses himself as a Muslim, or calls, or refers to, his faith as Islam, or preaches or propagates his faith, or invites others to accept his faith, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations, or in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of Muslims shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years and shall also be liable to fine.

http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/legis ... f1860.html

Must take exception with this part;

295-B. Defiling, etc., of Holy Qur'an:
Whoever wilfully defiles, damages or desecrates a copy of the Holy Qur'an or of an extract therefrom or uses it in any derogatory manner or for any unlawful purpose shall be punishable with imprisonment for life.

295-C. Use of derogatory remarks, etc., in respect of the Holy Prophet:
Whoever by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation or by any imputation, innuendo, or insinuation, directly or indirectly, defiles the sacred name of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) shall be punished with death, or imprisonment for life, and shall also be liable to fine.

Okay, so damaging a copy of the Quran is punishable with life imprisonment and merely making derogatory remarks about a dead Arab salesman is punishable by death or life in prison while defiling or destroying a place of worship only carries a maximum penalty of 2 years and could be let off with as little as a fine. The low penalty for that was clearly designed to allow Muslims to destroy Hindu temples with no real consequences. Here's Pakistan's version of "freedom of speech" as quoted directly from their constitution.

19. Freedom of speech, etc.
Every citizen shall have the right to freedom of speech and expression, and there shall be freedom of the press, subject to any reasonable restrictions imposed by law in the interest of the glory of Islam or the integrity, security or defence of Pakistan or any part thereof, friendly relations with foreign States, public order, decency or morality, or in relation to contempt of court,[15][commission of] or incitement to an offence.

http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/const ... 2.ch1.html

The Pakistani constitution therefore affords the dead salesman who was NEVER a citizen of Pakistan rights far in excess of any actual citizen of the country. Show me one actual Pakistani citizen who can't be insulted under Pakistani law without incurring a death sentence. When a country's constitution curtails its own citizens' rights to free speech with laws which are based on something a person says about a dead foreign citizen it is clearly not a suitable country for UN membership. This is a very clear case of a law which would be ruled unconstitutional in any real democracy. Unfortunately, Pakistan isn't one. In order for Pakistan to be regarded as a real democracy it would have to remove all religion based laws which infringe on the basic human right of free speech. A death sentence for mere derogatory remarks against a dead foreigner is clearly cruel and unusual punishment and therefore violates the fundamental principles of justice. When a country's constitution coupled with its laws openly permits a blatant violation of the fundamental principles of justice that country should not be allows to be a member of the UN, period.

From the Charter of the United Nations, which Pakistan is a member of;

CHAPTER I: PURPOSES AND PRINCIPLES
Article 1
The Purposes of the United Nations are:

1) To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;

2) To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;

3) To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion; and

4) To be a centre for harmonizing the actions of nations in the attainment of these common ends.

Pakistan doesn't share the purposes and principles stated in section 3 of the UN Charter. So why are they a member?

Their constitution is actually violated by the laws against insulting Muhammad.

25. Equality of citizens.
(1) All citizens are equal before law and are entitled to equal protection of law.
(2) There shall be no discrimination on the basis of sex [15B][*].
(3) Nothing in this Article shall prevent the State from making any special provision for the protection of women and children.

http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/const ... 2.ch1.html

Firstly, we know that there is no equality of sexes in Pakistan. Secondly, all citizens are entitled to equal protection of law. Since Muslims are protected from having their dead salesman insulted, with the death penalty, so must Hindus be protected against having any of their religious figures who had lived and died in India insulted, by the death penalty. If they don't also get the same death penalty protection of law then Pakistan has violated its own constitution, having separate laws for Muslim citizens and Non-Muslim citizens. Saying anything bad about Jesus should also be punishable by death. Saying that Jesus was a mere human, for instance, when Christianity believes that he was the son of Allah, would be a derogatory remark about Jesus.

[iffo]

Interesting, but I do wonder how long it will exist before a few thugs come along and burn it down. Just my less-than-optimistic side showing there.....
- enceladus

I will not be surprised if it is burned down.
I was arguing with someone saying Pakistan law does not allow construction of new churches and I was 100% certain about it. But she just shut my mouth with this link.

[Yohan]

Interesting, but I do wonder how long it will exist before a few thugs come along and burn it down. Just my less-than-optimistic side showing there.....
- enceladus

I will not be surprised if it is burned down.
I was arguing with someone saying Pakistan law does not allow construction of new churches and I was 100% certain about it. But she just shut my mouth with this link.

Should one has to get a permit to build a place of worship in Pakistan, muslim or non-muslim one? India doesn't have any law like that.

[Another_Proud_Kafir]

Interesting, but I do wonder how long it will exist before a few thugs come along and burn it down. Just my less-than-optimistic side showing there.....
- enceladus

I will not be surprised if it is burned down.
I was arguing with someone saying Pakistan law does not allow construction of new churches and I was 100% certain about it. But she just shut my mouth with this link.

We (christians) can build new churches in Pakistan, but cannot put the loudspeakers as you you can see on mosques. There are two churches near my house. Both churches used to have loudspeakers. There's a mosque near my house and people from that mosque pressured to remove the loudspeakers from churches.

[pr126]

Why do churches need loudspeakers in Pakistan?

[paxi christi]

Why do churches need loudspeakers in Pakistan?

what would happen if they would sound the bells of the church I wonder.

[iffo]

Interesting, but I do wonder how long it will exist before a few thugs come along and burn it down. Just my less-than-optimistic side showing there.....
- enceladus

I will not be surprised if it is burned down.
I was arguing with someone saying Pakistan law does not allow construction of new churches and I was 100% certain about it. But she just shut my mouth with this link.

We (christians) can build new churches in Pakistan, but cannot put the loudspeakers as you you can see on mosques. There are two churches near my house. Both churches used to have loudspeakers. There's a mosque near my house and people from that mosque pressured to remove the loudspeakers from churches.

Dude forget about loud speakers. The type of crazy mullahs live there you should be happy they are not doing drive by shooting on your churches like they do on Shia/Sunni mosques.

BTW how is an average Pakistani behavior with You? They criticize you all the time or make fun of you? I wanted to get your honest opinion.

[Another_Proud_Kafir]

Dude forget about loud speakers. The type of crazy mullahs live there you should be happy they are not doing drive by shooting on your churches like they do on Shia/Sunni mosques.

BTW how is an average Pakistani behavior with You? They criticize you all the time or make fun of you? I wanted to get your honest opinion.

Yeah, loud speakers doesn’t matter, it is equal rights.
Average Pakistani behavior? I am also a Pakistani. Perhaps you are asking average Muslim behavior. I think I live in a good area. We never have any fight yet between Muslims and Christians because of religion. We never discuss religion with Muslims. We (Christians and Muslims) play cricket and talk on streets, but mostly we do not go very close to each other. When I was studying I had lots of Muslim friends. We never discussed religion. We never had any discussion about which religion is better. I think we do not tell what is inside our heart and they also do not tell what is inside their heart. No one criticize you or make fun of you, at least it didn’t happen with me. You just have to be a little careful. Haven’t you visited Lahore? Most of Muslims I know were not very Muslim from their appearance. And about jobs, Christians say that Muslims do not give good jobs to them.

I am quite lucky I have not had any bad incident yet, but I know two people who had: my sister and my uncle.
My sister tells that when she was studying in 8th or 9th grade there were only five Christian girls in the class. She tells that everyday her teacher used to gather all Muslim girls in the class around them and read some verse and say, ‘Now you know the truth, why you do not convert? You must convert’. They didn’t know how to deal with it because they were very young. They didn’t even tell this to anyone in home, if they had told, they would not have to face that torture everyday. She tells that many times they said to her teacher that they do not want to convert, why do you do it everyday? She tells that one day they were very angry about what was happening everyday. That day they told the teacher that they will bring their parents with them and they are going to tell that to the principle as well. They didn’t tell that to their parents nor to their principle, but it worked. She stopped doing it. They were angry but, thank God, they didn’t say anything that could be interpreted as blasphemous.
My uncle would be in 4th or 5th grade. He was studying in the government’s primary school that is quite near our house, I also studied there. He was very fond of studying and he used to stay in the school until evening. He was very impressed of his teacher. That teacher memorized him Quran and he was going to convert him. One day his mother saw him reading Quran in a play ground. She asked him about it and he told everything. Then his parents stopped him.
Both, my sister and my uncle were very young when their teacher tried to convert them.
I have a Muslim friend who used to study with me in a Christian school. For many years I didn’t even know he was a Muslim. He used to sing the Christian songs we used to sing in school. He used to go church. He was a kid. Nobody tried to convert or gave more attention than us. It is odd to try to convert children and take them away from their parents. I don’t know what would have happened if my sister or uncle would have converted. I saw on TV that a Hindu were saying that Muslims threat their children and take them away from their parents saying that they have converted to Islam and cannot live their parents. Most of my teachers were Muslims, none tried to convert me nor tried to teach me Islam. That’s why I said I am quite lucky in that matter.

My neibours were good people. My brother is very impressed by their son (let me say him ‘S’) who is a new born Muslim. My brother used to talk about Islam with S. He even asked him about the age of ashia, and S said that don’t ask about it to anyone else they will even fight with you. My brother loved teasing him by saying there is no God. S used to get louder and louder when he used to try to explain to my brother that there is God and my brother used to deny it, just for fun. They have moved somewhere else now. Not every Muslim is bad here, but I think he was also trying to convert him. It isn’t that bad because my brother is perhaps 2o years old. Perhaps it was the reason I started to visit sites like these.

If I missed something, you can ask again in easier English. My English isn't very good.

[Fernando]

If I missed something, you can ask again in easier English. My English isn't very good.

It's very good for someone who isn't a native speaker. Better than some native speakers, too, these days!

[marduk]

The Christians need loudspeakers to say "there is no god but God and Jesus is his son".

[ringmaster]

The Christians need loudspeakers to say "there is no god but God and Jesus is his son".

One dhimmified member of this forum would consider such an action as "bigoted". I guess only muslims are allowed to use loudspeakers.

[Idesigner]

The Christians need loudspeakers to say "there is no god but God and Jesus is his son".

Its good idea!!

Christians should be allowed this Azan twice a day. One for morning mass and one for evening.

Many christians in West will be surprised but in country like India Temples, churches and mosque all have loud speaker on top of the building for annoncements. Mosques use it five times a day for Azan. Temples use it in early morning for holy chants and singing. Churches can use it ringing bells.

[Idesigner]

Interesting, but I do wonder how long it will exist before a few thugs come along and burn it down. Just my less-than-optimistic side showing there.....
- enceladus

I will not be surprised if it is burned down.
I was arguing with someone saying Pakistan law does not allow construction of new churches and I was 100% certain about it. But she just shut my mouth with this link.

Should one has to get a permit to build a place of worship in Pakistan, muslim or non-muslim one? India doesn't have any law like that.

What Ifo is talking here is about some show case event and show case church.

The link below also mentions the word Jesus Christ is banned on SMS messages.

There are all laws on book in Pakistan almost imitating US constitution , but Sharia laws are applied side by side.