God, Free Will & Contingency

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The Cat
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God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by The Cat »

Researchers Probe Whether, Why, 'Free Will' Exists. By Amy Green
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/2 ... 52628.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
ORLANDO, Fla. -- Are people really responsible for all the things they do? Do they have what theologians call God-given "free will" to choose between right and wrong? Those questions are at the heart of a four-year research project underway at Florida State University that aims to determine whether, and how, free will exists. Funded by a $4.4 million grant from the John Templeton Foundation, the project will gather together scientists, philosophers and theologians around the question of what factors -- free will, genetics, environment, God or something else -- lead us to do all the things we do. (...)

The debate however, is much older. For instance: Do humans, through their own freely chosen actions and decisions, determine whether they will go to heaven or hell? Does an omniscient God already know how things will turn out in the end? Does God given humans the free choice to turn away? In the early 1980s, neuroscientist Benjamin Libet conducted an experiment that found subjects' brains registered the decision to flex their wrists roughly 300 milliseconds before the subjects themselves became aware of their decision to do it. Libet concluded "conscious free will never is involved in producing a decision, and you can see how there's a quick road from there to 'there actually is no free will,"' Mele said.

The research led some to believe that brain processes traceable to genetic and environmental factors, and not free will, determine our decisions. Others think that while people might not be immediately aware of the decisions our brains make, they still possess the free will to veto these decisions. But Mele, the author of two books and more than 170 articles on the concept of free will, doesn't discount the more common definition of free will -- one used by the courts in determining guilt and premeditation. "There really is nothing more to it than sanely, rationally assessing reasons and then deciding on the basis of those reasons, as long as nobody is pushing you around or forcing you," he said. "In that view of free will, it's pretty obvious there is free will." (...)

While it is perhaps difficult to reconcile concepts such as fate and destiny with free will, it is possible for an omniscient God to coexist with the idea of free will, said Kevin Timpe, an associate professor of philosophy at Northwest Nazarene University in Nampa, Idaho. "There is a difference between knowing what someone is going to do and causing them to do it," said Timpe, author of "Free Will: Sourcehood and Its Alternatives." "I know what my wife is going to order when I take her to certain restaurants just because I know her very well. But I also think my wife is freely choosing to order."

What if researchers discover free will does not exist? Two studies portend a troubled future, Mele said. One found its subjects cheated more when they believed they were not responsible for their own decisions; another found subjects' behavior growing more aggressive when their belief in free will was suspended.
The article ends stressing that the Original Sin implies Free Will because ''If Adam's decision was not made freely, then that presumably makes God responsible for evil in the world.'' -Thing is that neither Adam or Eve could differentiate right from wrong before eating the forbidden fruit...

A comment by 'Thinkster':
''I think the definition of what constitutes "free will" will be the most difficult issue before these investigators, and I doubt they will be able to come to a definition that can be tested. The infinite regression of definitions will peter out to a self-referential statement of what constitutes free will that mirrors what we already have, and we can’t test it because it requires we prove the negative – that free will doesn’t exist. This seems to lead to reductio ad absurdum – the fact that we choose to study free will itself implies that we have free will. Or doesn’t it?''
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

AbdulRahman
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by AbdulRahman »

Some time very educated even Nobel Laureate make stupid logical errors when something goes against their deep seated desires/wishes.
Many statements in the article are simply logically false. One doesn't have to go to lab. to figure out that we DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL. Same is true about God. Oh, yah if you twist, distort modify, redefine all the fundamental essential attributes associated with the concept of Free Will or God then one can show anything exist. I could say ghost, angel, hell, haven, Voo-Doo exist. I could just go ahead redefine each one of those concept in such a way that reason, logic, science couldn't falsify it.

To find out the mass of electron, or the value of G or to find out which part of the brain is most active when one feel extreme anger or love one has to go to the lab., either physics or fMRI lab. But to figure out the existence of Free Will or God one doesn't have to go to the lab. One doesn't have to go to lab. to reason that 2+ 2 can't be equal to 5.

Summary, We do not have any Free Will whatsoever. It is simply not possible.


In a different topic:
http://fora.tv/2007/10/11/Christopher_H ... er_McGrath" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Baal
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by Baal »

That is an interesting post. I believe that we do not have free will. Most of our decisions are the result of decisions made by our parents, rulers, and environmental factors. Of cource, we can take some 'free will' decisions in our lives but those are extremely rare.

I also believe that certain methods of up-bringing can increase a person's free-will and vice versa.

Of course if a person is brought up, to have free will, then really, it is his parents that decided to train his free will, and as such, the person did not choose to have free-will. It was just chosen for him.

Wootah
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by Wootah »

Islam the only religion I knows where God seals a person's heart and denies them the free will to enter Heaven.

AbdulRahman
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by AbdulRahman »

Baal wrote:That is an interesting post. I believe that we do not have free will. Most of our decisions are the result of decisions made by our parents, rulers, and environmental factors. Of cource, we can take some 'free will' decisions in our lives but those are extremely rare.

I also believe that certain methods of up-bringing can increase a person's free-will and vice versa.

Of course if a person is brought up, to have free will, then really, it is his parents that decided to train his free will, and as such, the person did not choose to have free-will. It was just chosen for him.

You wrote:
Ball wrote:Of cource, we can take some 'free will' decisions in our lives but those are extremely rare.

I also believe that certain methods of up-bringing can increase a person's free-will and vice versa.
It is pretty obvious that you did not get the concept of Free Will/No Free Will.
Your post above is just double talk without premeditation on the topic.
It is far, far, easier to ponder, understand, accept and say that there is no God but it is far more difficult to do the same about Free Will.
Most atheists became atheist without the rite of passage of understanding of Free Will or lack of and that is why their understanding about man, god (if exist) and nature is superfluous. In my last 10 years of research and polling at different atheists website I found only 25% to 30% atheists understand that we do not any Free Will whatsoever. After a lot of arm twisting, cornering them with powerful logic this number increases to about 40%, and that's about it. This mean, still majority of the atheists believe in some kind of free will. No wonder, I call these half-baked, baby atheists.

No wonder when these half baked atheist, social atheist, incoherent logic based atheist debates with theist they have a weaker ground. Yes, theist can corner an atheist who has left out even a single weak link in the chain of logic.
Just like Omnipotent can't exist, Free Will can't exist.
Just like, one can't define God , one can't define Free Will either.
By defining God or Free Will, you kill it.
I am talking about Free Will of any kind, whatsoever, even as small as free to choose between a cup of tea or coffee that are right in front of you. Or even to scratch your head or to breath or to blink your eyes.

Think about it.
Matured atheists most prominent identification shouldn't be atheist but believing in Naturalism. Naturalism is much more comprehensive. Only a small segment of Naturalism yield to the understanding that there is no God.

People like YeeZeVee who has very shallow understanding of the nature doesn't even want to think or discuss the topic of Free Will. He know he will be cornered. He skips it just like Muslims skip many tough Islamic topics. A true truth seeker will be afraid of nothing when it is a matter of thinking and understanding.

AbdulRahman
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by AbdulRahman »

Wootah wrote:Islam the only religion I knows where God seals a person's heart and denies them the free will to enter Heaven.

Wootah,

Not entirely true.
Please never ever missrepresent the opponent.
Use the best possible defence for the opponent on opponent's behalf and find a counter arguement for it.

Islam and Muslim do double talk.
Some situations they will say we have free will and that is the only way they can justify hell and heaven.
But then another day when it is a matter of Allah's Omnipotent, Omnisense, OmniBulShitt they will turn around and say nothing happens in the world without god wishes/approval. God has sealed some people eyes, ear and heart. These people, by the command of Allah, will never get the truth.

And no, this is not only with Islam, Christianity has the same problem of double talk.

So, Islam and Muslim, and any ideology for that matter, that is not based on reason are forced to do the double talk.
Look at YeeZeVee's stance. Although he is not a theist and does crticise Islam and other religion severaly but even he falls in the same trap of lossing the sight of reason when pressure to maintain his cognitive consense become too great. He couldn't cope with the cognitive dissonance and pays the price with the truth. Example of a typical half baked, baby atheist. Nevertheless, he is far better than a Muslim.

Baal
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by Baal »

AbdulRahman wrote:
Baal wrote:That is an interesting post. I believe that we do not have free will. Most of our decisions are the result of decisions made by our parents, rulers, and environmental factors. Of cource, we can take some 'free will' decisions in our lives but those are extremely rare.

I also believe that certain methods of up-bringing can increase a person's free-will and vice versa.

Of course if a person is brought up, to have free will, then really, it is his parents that decided to train his free will, and as such, the person did not choose to have free-will. It was just chosen for him.

You wrote:
Ball wrote:Of cource, we can take some 'free will' decisions in our lives but those are extremely rare.

I also believe that certain methods of up-bringing can increase a person's free-will and vice versa.
It is pretty obvious that you did not get the concept of Free Will/No Free Will.
Ad Hominem - Wrong it is not obvious. You are just insulting.
AbdulRahman wrote: Your post above is just double talk without premeditation on the topic.
Ad Hominem -
AbdulRahman wrote: It is far, far, easier to ponder, understand, accept and say that there is no God but it is far more difficult to do the same about Free Will.
Non Sequitur. What does saying there is no god has anything to do about saying there is no free will.
AbdulRahman wrote: Most atheists became atheist without the rite of passage of understanding of Free Will or lack of
Ad Hominem - Your opinion about that atheists go through is in insults-land since it is not backed by any facts/evidence.
AbdulRahman wrote: and that is why their understanding about man, god (if exist) and nature is superfluous.
Non Sequitur - claiming an atheist did not go through the 'rite of passage of understanding (wtf?!?)' so now there understanding is superfluous (wtf?!?).
AbdulRahman wrote: In my last 10 years of research and polling at different atheists website
Setting the ground for some outright lying. Please refrain from stating your opinion as a 'research' and a 'polling', I am not your mosque buddy and therefore under no obligation to nod and agree with your wishes.
AbdulRahman wrote: I found only 25% to 30% atheists understand that we do not any Free Will whatsoever.
No atheists will ever state that we do not have any free will whatsoever.
AbdulRahman wrote: After a lot of arm twisting, cornering them with powerful logic this number increases to about 40%, and that's about it.
So far you made a whole number of powerful logic fallacies. For each fallacy you commit you owe your reader an apology. I do not know you yet but so far you do not strike me as the powerfully logical type.
AbdulRahman wrote: This mean, still majority of the atheists believe in some kind of free will. No wonder, I call these half-baked, baby atheists.
Finally a bit of Truth. Most atheists, all of them actually, believe in some kind of free will.
AbdulRahman wrote: No wonder when these half baked atheist, social atheist, incoherent logic based atheist debates with theist they have a weaker ground. Yes, theist can corner an atheist who has left out even a single weak link in the chain of logic.
A whole bunch of Ad hominems attacking atheists, calling them half-baked, incoherent. And for what? For believing that humans have some forms of free will. Another powerful logical fallacy on your part.
AbdulRahman wrote: Just like Omnipotent can't exist, Free Will can't exist.
Non Sequitur. Omnipotence existing has nothing to with free will. Another powerful logical fallacy.
AbdulRahman wrote: Just like, one can't define God , one can't define Free Will either.
Non Sequitur - Wrong analogy. defining Mickey Mouse, has nothing to do with defining free will. Another apology required from you.
AbdulRahman wrote: By defining God or Free Will, you kill it.
Amen. Allahu Akbar. But that is another non-sequitur. Defining something does not kill it. Unless of course, it is wrong, and then the definition will cause the demise.
AbdulRahman wrote: I am talking about Free Will of any kind, whatsoever, even as small as free to choose between a cup of tea or coffee that are right in front of you. Or even to scratch your head or to breath or to blink your eyes.
You are talking about animal free will, the choice of a dog to stand or to sit. To sh!t now or to sh!t in 10 minutes. Either way the dog will sh!t. And regardless, to stand or to sit is often dictated by a body requirement, and rarely by free will.
AbdulRahman wrote: Think about it.
Stop thinking. Please. Just go back count the number of fallacies and prepare some apologies.
AbdulRahman wrote: Matured atheists most prominent identification shouldn't be atheist but believing in Naturalism.
Naturalism? Thank yo for your opinion. Very valuable your opinion specially in light of every single line you wrote prior that is a mistake.
AbdulRahman wrote: Naturalism is much more comprehensive. Only a small segment of Naturalism yield to the understanding that there is no God.
Holy sh11t. Atheists came from all walks of life. Doctors. Engineers. Astrophycisits. housewives. elementary students. High-school students. Priests. Maullahs. Sheikhs. How many of them could not give a rat's ass about naturalism or, if you prefer, the snake that can talk.
AbdulRahman wrote: People like YeeZeVee who has very shallow understanding of the nature doesn't even want to think or discuss the..
Screw the topic of understanding nature. You had to insult the reader with ad hominems and non sequitur to try to squeeze in the subject of nature? Why did you need to insult and lie and commit non-sequitur to make a point. Why should I or Yeezevee or your own parents even respect a point that you could only make forward by insulting and lying.

Baal
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by Baal »

Wootah wrote:Islam the only religion I knows where God seals a person's heart and denies them the free will to enter Heaven.
Amen. Except of course, the amount of free will decisions we make in life are very far and few. With or without mohammad or Jesus or a god.

AbdulRahman
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by AbdulRahman »

Baal wrote:
Wootah wrote:Islam the only religion I knows where God seals a person's heart and denies them the free will to enter Heaven.
Amen. Except of course, the amount of free will decisions we make in life are very far and few. With or without Mohammad or Jesus or a god.
False.

Baal,


When you drill down deep enough you will see there is no free will at all. Free Will is an illusion as faith in god is self delusion.
Exposing non existence of Free Will is very painful to atheists. It is far more difficult to swallow. Your cognitive dissonance (CD) stops you from accepting it. Because it makes you feel weaker without the free will. Whereas, accepting no god is easier because that make you feel more powerful – a case of cognitive consonance (CC).
Most of these atheists are fake atheists. This means they have not checked out every single link in the chain of logic before becoming atheist. They decided to become atheist before full contemplation.

Non Sequitur
Most of my statements above are Non Sequitur to you because you can't see the light, you can't see the connection. Any idiot can utter rote philosophical/logical term like Non-Sequitur to give a hollow impression of sophistication because they are atheist more for style than for substance to begin with. As I said 60% to 70% atheists believe in Free Will.

Ad Hominem
I stated a fact about most atheists that they are half-baked, not as much thoughtful, have not pondered on Free Will enough. This statement sounded and felt insulting to you and others. Corollary: Stating the fact that Mohammad’s character was flawed and that he was technically a child molester insults majority of the Muslims - Ad Hominem to Muslims. But both of my statements are a fact.

Grow up. Take the next step of your journey to self-actualization.
Ponder, process, and figure out, understand then state that there is no Free Will.
I will not stop showing that most Muslims and atheists are dumb. Yap, Muslims and atheists, both gets pissed. But it is the truth.

You should have read my post to Wootah above before responding.

Ball wrote:
Ball wrote:You are talking about animal free will, the choice of a dog to stand or to sit. To sh!t now or to sh!t in 10 minutes. Either way the dog will sh!t. And regardless, to stand or to sit is often dictated by a body requirement, and rarely by free will.
Ponder on what you wrote above?
Animal Free Will? Man's Free Will? Computer Free Will? Brain's Free Will? Electron Free Will? No matter what kind of BullSh!tFreeWill you want to talk about doesn't exist.
If you want to talk about Allah the create? Jesus the creator? Bhagban the creator? Regardless of what kind of BullSh!tCreator you want to talk about doesn't exist.
Think again.
Are you ashamed now? [Ad Hominem? Could be. But still the truth. Take it or leave it.]

Now, If you are interested, I can hold your baby hand and walk you through step by step to the light of "No Free Will.

Baal
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by Baal »

AbdulRahman wrote:
Baal wrote:
Wootah wrote:Islam the only religion I knows where God seals a person's heart and denies them the free will to enter Heaven.
Amen. Except of course, the amount of free will decisions we make in life are very far and few. With or without Mohammad or Jesus or a god.
False.

Baal,


When you drill down deep enough you will see there is no free will at all. Free Will is an illusion as faith in god is self delusion.
Exposing non existence of Free Will is very painful to atheists. It is far more difficult to swallow. Your cognitive dissonance (CD) stops you from accepting it. Because it makes you feel weaker without the free will. Whereas, accepting no god is easier because that make you feel more powerful – a case of cognitive consonance (CC).
First: Explaining the correct process a person goes through when confronted with the Truth, does not make your point about 'free will' to be correct.

Stop disrespecting your readers. Just because Your statement 'A' is correct, does not allow you to sneak in statement 'B' and 'C' and 'D'. Unless your name is Dan Brown.
AbdulRahman wrote: Most of these atheists are fake atheists. This means they have not checked out every single link in the chain of logic before becoming atheist. They decided to become atheist before full contemplation.
Most atheist will acknoledge the term 'weak atheist' and 'strong atheist', they will gladly tell you which of the Two they are. Without any Dissonances as a matter of fact. Most atheist are the most likely group to agree with you that we do not have free will. I do not know why you are singling them out when they are the most likely group to agree with you. Atheist look around, and see all this humanity that believe in a god through no choice of their own. So no one, more than atheists, will agree that we have very little free will.

And we have very little free will, we do not, like you state, have *no* free will. Unless your definition of free will is something insane (crazy) like when you were sticking to 'nature' in your previous post.
AbdulRahman wrote: Non Sequitur
Most of my statements above are Non Sequitur to you because you can't see the light, you can't see the connection.
Then stop crying about it and explain the causaility. One by One, take the statements you made, and explain the link/causality. If you can not explain a link, then your statements are non-sequitur. Learn something from this conversation and stop making non-sequiturs.
AbdulRahman wrote: Any idiot can utter rote philosophical/logical term like Non-Sequitur to give a hollow impression of sophistication because they are atheist more for style than for substance to begin with.
Now if you can back up the insult you just made with a little substance and explain some causality. Until then, you can take your non-sequiturs, and go back to your drawing board. And thank me for preventing your brain from further rotting.
AbdulRahman wrote:As I said 60% to 70% atheists believe in Free Will.
Stop throwing numbers you can not back up. When you are not sure, use words like 'i believe a majority' or 'i think a good number' or 'so many of the atheists i talked to'.

But when you throw raw numbers, you will be accused of cooking (lying) numbers. I am very sorry, that is not just my opinion, that will be the opinion of anyone with a bit of training in any cerebral skill.
AbdulRahman wrote: Ad Hominem
I stated a fact about most atheists that they are half-baked, not as much thoughtful, have not pondered on Free Will enough. This statement sounded and felt insulting to you and others. Corollary: Stating the fact that Mohammad’s character was flawed and that he was technically a child molester insults majority of the Muslims - Ad Hominem to Muslims. But both of my statements are a fact.
Stating that Tom is a bully is an insult to Tom. Unless you back it up, then it is just an insult. How can we even defend Tom from such an accusation?

Stating that Jerry is a bully because he beats weaker kids, then at least there is some substance. We can try to defend Jerry.

Stating that an atheist is half-baked is not a fact, it is the insult. You made an entire list of insults, and then stated the reason to be because they are not doing something about (nature!!?!).
AbdulRahman wrote: Grow up. Take the next step of your journey to self-actualization.
Defend a single one of your non-sequitur. Learn the difference between stating a fact and stating an opinon and just plain stating an insult. And then thank me for the life lessons now or later.
AbdulRahman wrote: Ponder, process, and figure out, understand then state that there is no Free Will.
No thanx. I just pondered that we have very little free will. It is also very sad that, of all the people you talked with, I probably have the closest opinion to you, I am the closest to agree with you, and yet you still stated my belief is False and directed a few insults my way. I found that highly amusing.
AbdulRahman wrote: I will not stop showing that most Muslims and atheists are dumb. Yap, Muslims and atheists, both gets pissed. But it is the truth.
Because they do not agree with your opinion, your opinion "that atheism can only be achieved through an understanding of nature??!?!? (are you nuts?)"
AbdulRahman wrote: You should have read my post to Wootah above before responding.
No I should not have. But I did.
AbdulRahman wrote: Ball wrote:
Ball wrote:You are talking about animal free will, the choice of a dog to stand or to sit. To sh!t now or to sh!t in 10 minutes. Either way the dog will sh!t. And regardless, to stand or to sit is often dictated by a body requirement, and rarely by free will.
Ponder on what you wrote above?
Animal Free Will? Man's Free Will? Computer Free Will? Brain's Free Will? Electron Free Will? No matter what kind of BullSh!tFreeWill you want to talk about doesn't exist.
If you want to talk about Allah the create? Jesus the creator? Bhagban the creator? Regardless of what kind of BullSh!tCreator you want to talk about doesn't exist.
Think again.
Creator? what creator? Why are you obsessing about creators?

This was in reply to you stating: "By defining God or Free Will, you kill it." Your definition of free will is something very unique to you. And anyone who does not agree to your unique view is 'half-baked' and 'shallow' among other insults.

As for the various types of free will, here is what I wrote earlier:
That is an interesting post. I believe that we do not have free will. Most of our decisions are the result of decisions made by our parents, rulers, and environmental factors. Of cource, we can take some 'free will' decisions in our lives but those are extremely rare.

I also believe that certain methods of up-bringing can increase a person's free-will and vice versa.

Of course if a person is brought up, to have free will, then really, it is his parents that decided to train his free will, and as such, the person did not choose to have free-will. It was just chosen for him.
AbdulRahman wrote: Now, If you are interested, I can hold your baby hand and walk you through step by step to the light of "No Free Will.
I would rather you take some baby steps and review the lack of causality between your statements. Go ahead and defend/explain One of your non-sequitur. At worst, One of us will learn something new.

AbdulRahman
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by AbdulRahman »

Baal,

Here is the proof for NO FREE WILL
There are only following two foundational items to consider.
1) Universe of Newtonian mechanics without the unpredictability of Quantum mechanics
2) Universe with Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (HUP)

Case 1: Each and every particle of the universe follows strict laws of nature. Collection of particles in the form of atom and molecules also follows strict laws of nature. Each particle and collection of particles inside my body, brain and outside my body follows strict laws of nature. Of course, we do not know each and every laws of nature to precisely describe how each and everything happened but nevertheless, we understand that there are cause and effect relationship. This mean without the HUP the future of the Universe in every detail was determined at the time of the Big-bang. You couldn’t have avoided reading this line even if you wanted to. But of course there was no way for me or anyone else to know in advance with certainty that you would read this line.

Case 2. Now bring in HUP.
HUP allows uncertainty within some limit h cut (Plank Constant). This implies fate of the universe might not have been determined at the time of the big bang but can take one of the several possible paths as allowed by HUP. This is the wiggle room. However, no particle, individually, or collectively, inside or outside my body/brain determines HUP. We do not control the unpredictability either. Therefore, even with the introduction of HUP there is no free will. Free Will is almost a perfect illusion.

Another way to put it "There is no ghost in the brain."
Everthing in our brain and body is triggered by either internal or external or combination of both stimulie, on which we have no control.
It is like Flow of Happennings.
Anyone who saying we do not have much free will, or we have little free will clearly shows no understanding of the subject of Free Will. The truth is there is no free will whatsoever.

Yes, you probably agree most with me than anyone else. You need to agree not necessarily with me but with reason, logic, truth as I showed you above.

No. Majority of atheists DO believe in Free Will.
I have done poll in the top 5 atheist’s site. You can do your own. You will see what I am talking about. Most atheists and theists, both stop applying reasoning at their convenient point just to maintain their preconceived ideas. I also have done poll at FFI and found 80% atheists at FFI believe in Free Will. [one third of Americans believe that 9/11 was an inside job.]
Baal wrote:Stating that an atheist is half-baked is not a fact, it is the insult.
I did not say atheist, I said "most atheist"
Yes, most atheists are half baked. Yes, that is a fact. Yes, that got to be insulting to most atheists.
Mohammad's cartoon is also very insulting to Muslims. Mohammad character iwas flawed is insulting to Muslims too.
If I do not spare Muslims to tell the truth even if it insult them then why should I spare half-baked atheists from the truth?

You do not understand “Naturalism”.
You are confused Naturalism with nature lovers. The modern days, tree huger, environmentalist, mumbo-jumbo of new age pseudo-science fraud. Naturalism philosophy is everything we know is through nature. In other way science, reason, logic. There is no ghost, soul, hell heaven. Naturalism doesn’t believe in supernatural things, that’s all. Your understanding is very shallow.

Try this for Naturalism.
http://centerfornaturalism.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.naturalism.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by AbdulRahman on Sun May 16, 2010 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Muhammad bin Lyin
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

Free will does not exist as long as we are slaves to pleasing ourselves. If the assumption is that a person will do whatever they think pleases them most, even if it's a lesser of two evils, then their decisions, actions and reactions can be said to be predetermined given their genetics, their past experiences and the circumstances or stimulus. It would be possible to predict with certainty what they will do if we had complete knowledge of the person and their past experinces.

So what about altruism? Even in the case of self sacrifice, we do it because it pleases us to be that way or to look at ourselves that way. So we gain the pleasure of pleasing ourselves, and sometimes gain the pleasure of pleasing others by helping them. There can only be free will when one no longer tries to please themselves and that factor has no bearing on their decisions. Then, we could no longer say with certainty what the person will do. Will they please themselves, or choose not to please themselves? We don't know. It would be almost random, but it would still be a decision, and execution of free will.

So the bizarrely ironic thing is that the only way to have free will is actually to lose the self. We are slaves to pleasing ourselves. This runs even deeper than us being slaves to maintaining our survival, because some people don't maintain their survival and commit suicide. Death pleases them more than life. Some ancient cultures had mass suicides because they believed an evil God ruled this world but a good God ruled the next world. Pleasing themselves trumped their survival instinct. So while they certainly are not a slave to maintaining their survival, they still are slaves to pleasing themselves as is almost everybody.
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by AbdulRahman »

Mohammad Bin-lying,
Mohammad Bin-lying wrote:“...decisions, actions and reactions can be said to be predetermined given their genetics, their past experiences and the circumstances or stimulus [bodily internal or extern].”
Although not entirely accurate but pretty good description of the outcomes (any kind of outcome, whether it is human or animal action/reaction or non-life form events.) in the universe. [No language is adequate to concisely and easily describe complex philosophical thoughts.]

Let’s call your above statement as Truth 1.

From your post it shows you too miss the point of “There is NO Free Will whatsoever. Period”.

I have said earlier but very few people understand the implication of "a chain of logic is as strong as its weakest link".
Most atheists (about 2/3 of all atheists) are half-baked, baby atheist and they believe in at least some kind of free will. Understanding, acknowledging and preaching there is no god is a piece of cake when compared to non existence of free will. Knowing no god can make one feel in charge, bigger. But knowing no free will make one feel smaller, not in control. for most people, human neuropsychological, brain natural defense mechanism kicks in subconscious level to avoid extreme cognitive dissonance. As a result people chose to stay in the self-delusion of free will to maintain their cognitive consonance. this includes atheist and theists both alike. Neither God nor Free Will is definable because neither can exist. By means of twisting, spinning the definition, desires, wishes expressed by human words "God" and "Free Will" to fit the natural world one kills God and Free Will.

Most atheists are very quick to show the fault in theist's logic when it is a question of the existence/non-existence of god but ignores their own even more fundamental flaw in their logic about Non-existence of Free Will. Unless atheist (or naturalism - for more completeness sake) fixes their own flow in the chain of logic they have no rights to criticize theists for their illogic.
Mohammad Bin-lying wrote:Free will does not exist as long as we are slaves to pleasing ourselves.
There can only be free will when one no longer tries to please themselves and that factor has no bearing on their decisions.
Fact of the matter is whether you please yourself or not has no impact on the existence or non-existence of Free Will. Highlighted qualifications in your above statement make your statement inaccurate and even false.
Mohammad Bin-lying wrote:So the bizarrely ironic thing is that the only way to have free will is actually to lose the self.
False again. Truth is regardless of anything and everything, you just can’t have free will. I also see this as the residual illogic from previous theistic mind. How can you lose yourself when every particle, inside and outside of my body/brain, individually or collectively must follow strict laws of naturre. Plus, we do not control the quantum mechanics wiggle room either.

Would you like to think a little bit more on Free Will?
And then think on why most atheists still want to hang on to this FAITH on Free Will.

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Muhammad bin Lyin
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

AbdulRahman wrote:Mohammad Bin-lying,
Mohammad Bin-lying wrote:“...decisions, actions and reactions can be said to be predetermined given their genetics, their past experiences and the circumstances or stimulus [bodily internal or extern].”
Although not entirely accurate but pretty good description of the outcomes (any kind of outcome, whether it is human or animal action/reaction or non-life form events.) in the universe. [No language is adequate to concisely and easily describe complex philosophical thoughts.]

Let’s call your above statement as Truth 1.

From your post it shows you too miss the point of “There is NO Free Will whatsoever. Period”.
No, you missed my point, because there can be free will, and that's exactly what I explained. And all you did is to say that I'm wrong, but you didn't explain why. I think that what I said was too simplistic and common sense for you and therefore it evaded you.
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by charleslemartel »

AbdulRahman wrote:How can you lose yourself when every particle, inside and outside of my body/brain, individually or collectively must follow strict laws of naturre.
Let us see what this "self" is before we talk of "losing it". Any and every thing, the loss of or damage to which causes you displeasure is your "self"; just think for a moment and you will get the idea. Even our concepts, ideas and ideologies we believe in are parts of our "self". When something which is beyond one's "self" gets damaged, it causes no hurt to the person. When there is a conflict between two parts of the self, the part which is more strongly identified with the "self" gets the priority; your cousin is a lesser part of your self compared to your own brother/sister, for example.

If you keep this concept of the self, it would be easy to see why we feel hurt most of the times; some part or the other of our "self" is almost always under attack. If I like animals, I would keep getting hurt whenever I come across some cruelty to them. My religious/political/economic/social beliefs are always under attack, and so on. The only solution to get rid of this hurt seems to be to lose the "self" so that you no longer identify yourself with things/ideas etc.

Now there are two ways to lose this self. One is to keep watching your reactions, feelings and thoughts to realize that if some one attacks your favorite "ism", you need not feel hurt. It is said that gradually one comes to realize by this process of watching that one's thoughts, feelings or even this body is something different from one's core "self". One comes to realize that the core "self" cannot be hurt or damaged, and thus becomes free of suffering. Buddha followed this line (he left his own wife and the only son in order to search for the truth). This core self is said to be the same for everyone, and thus you lose the distinction between your own self and the "other".

The other way is to go on including "every thing" in your "self". No matter where and what or who is hurt any where, you try to feel compassionate and empathic. This will go on expanding your self to such a degree that you will realize there is no difference you and any other thing in the existence. In other words, you will come to realize the underlying oneness of the whole existence; and the various distinctions will evaporate. This was the method of Jesus.

In my view, the second method is far more difficult. How can you feel empathetic to one's enemy who is plotting to kill/harm you? :lol: On the other hand, it is easier to get rid of false identifications with most of the things. The really difficult thing is to realize that you are completely different/separate from your own thoughts, feelings or your body.

Any way, that is what is meant by "losing the self".
And then think on why most atheists still want to hang on to this FAITH on Free Will.
The conviction that free will exists is not FAITH, it is the common, every day experience of every person. Each person takes decisions every moment of his life. Whether this experience is true or not is a different matter altogether.
Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.

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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by AbdulRahman »

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
AbdulRahman wrote:Mohammad Bin-lying,
Mohammad Bin-lying wrote:“...decisions, actions and reactions can be said to be predetermined given their genetics, their past experiences and the circumstances or stimulus [bodily internal or extern].”
Although not entirely accurate but pretty good description of the outcomes (any kind of outcome, whether it is human or animal action/reaction or non-life form events.) in the universe. [No language is adequate to concisely and easily describe complex philosophical thoughts.]

Let’s call your above statement as Truth 1.

From your post it shows you too miss the point of “There is NO Free Will whatsoever. Period”.
No, you missed my point, because there can be free will, and that's exactly what I explained. And all you did is to say that I'm wrong, but you didn't explain why. I think that what I said was too simplistic and common sense for you and therefore it evaded you.

Muhammad bin Lyin,


OK, I will explain it for you again.
Here is the proof for NO FREE WILL
There are only following two foundational items to consider.
1) Universe of pure Newtonian mechanics without the unpredictability of Quantum mechanics
2) Universe with Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (HUP)

Case 1: Each and every particle of the universe follows strict laws of nature. Collection of particles in the form of atom and molecules also follows strict laws of nature. Each particle and collection of particles inside my body, brain and outside my body follows strict laws of nature. Of course, we do not know each and every laws of nature to precisely describe how each and everything happened but nevertheless, we understand that there are cause and effect relationship. This mean without the HUP the future of the Universe in every detail was determined at the time of the Big-bang. You couldn’t have avoided reading this line even if you wanted to. But of course there was no way for me or anyone else to know in advance with certainty that you would read this line.

Case 2. Now bring in HUP.
HUP allows uncertainty within some limit h cut (Plank Constant). This implies fate of the universe might not have been determined at the time of the big bang but can take one of the several possible paths as allowed by HUP. This is the wiggle room. However, no particle, individually, or collectively, inside or outside my body/brain determines HUP. We do not control the unpredictability either. Therefore, even with the introduction of HUP there is no free will. Free Will is almost a perfect illusion.

Another way to put it "There is no ghost in the brain."
Everthing in our brain and body is triggered by either internal or external or combination of both stimulie, on which we have no control.
It is like Flow of Happennings.
Last edited by AbdulRahman on Sun May 16, 2010 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by AbdulRahman »

Charles wrote:
The conviction that free will exists is not FAITH
Bull shiiiit.

Charles,

What is faith anyway?
Answer: Any thought residing in the head that can’t be logically/reasoned and/or confirmed by evidence or by laws of nature is faith.
Yap, slight malfunction of the brain, inconsistent thought, incoherent thought, all falls in the category of faith.
In contrast, rational memory, thought, ideas, feeling in the head are NOT Faith, and they are in harmony, in synch, coherent with all the laws in nature.

Many people hold many stupid, incoherent ideas in their head. That is a fact of life. Only a systematic logic test in the idea reveals it coherency or incoherency. Incoherent ideas are faith.
Incoherent idea will show up contradiction when cross checked with reason, logic, and natural laws.

Logic dictates there can't be any Free Will because there are strict natural laws (cause and effect) in place. But yes, people can hold believe that they have free will. Free Will is an illusion.

Refusal to admit the fact that there is no free will even after someone logically shows you this fact then becomes delusion - just like faith in god dilusion returns cognitive consonance (comfort) at the expense of the truth.
It reminds me of your arguments about the non existence of god to the theist as my argument now to you about the non-existence of free will. there is a clear parallel.
It is hypocritical for a baby atheist to accuse the theist of being illogical while atheist holding illogical illusory thought themselves.

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Remember, "reality" is nothing but total coherency, constancy with all laws of nature - no contradiction.

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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by charleslemartel »

AbdulRahman wrote:Charles wrote:
The conviction that free will exists is not FAITH
Bull shiiiit.
Abdul,

I think you have completely missed the point I was making. Please read my post again:
The conviction that free will exists is not FAITH, it is the common, every day experience of every person. Each person takes decisions every moment of his life. Whether this experience is true or not is a different matter altogether.
You will notice that I did not make any arguments for or against free will. I was just objecting to calling it FAITH. People don't experience the objects of faith on a daily basis unless they are hallucinating. God, heaven, hell etc are objects of faith.

Each of us decides on a daily basis whether to have a cup of coffee or tea every morning. Even if such decisions were pre-determined, it certainly appears that one is free to take such decisions and act accordingly.

Whether this experience is true or not is a different matter altogether.
Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.

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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by AbdulRahman »

charleslemartel wrote:
AbdulRahman wrote:Charles wrote:
The conviction that free will exists is not FAITH
Bull shiiiit.
Abdul,

I think you have completely missed the point I was making. Please read my post again:
The conviction that free will exists is not FAITH, it is the common, every day experience of every person. Each person takes decisions every moment of his life. Whether this experience is true or not is a different matter altogether.
You will notice that I did not make any arguments for or against free will. I was just objecting to calling it FAITH. People don't experience the objects of faith on a daily basis unless they are hallucinating. God, heaven, hell etc are objects of faith.

Each of us decides on a daily basis whether to have a cup of coffee or tea every morning. Even if such decisions were pre-determined, it certainly appears that one is free to take such decisions and act accordingly.

Whether this experience is true or not is a different matter altogether.
OK, thanks for clarifying.
Each of us decides on a daily basis whether to have a cup of coffee or tea every morning.
Most of the time your above statement is fine. But given the context of the subject matter in this thread do you think it is better to put it this way?
on almost daily basis, when we feel the urge to take a cup of coffee or tea and then take a cup of coffee or tea we feel that we made the decission based on Free Will. As long as we do not think deeper about our action, stays on the surface of feeling only, we do feel better (cognitive consonance) to know, believe and think that we are really freely made our decission/action. However, if one dig deeper in the chain of cause and effect and even include HUP, we will see the action that we falsely call Free Will is not free at all.


Do you believe in Free Will or just an agnostic about it?

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charleslemartel
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Re: God, Free Will & Contingency

Post by charleslemartel »

AbdulRahman wrote:Do you believe in Free Will or just an agnostic about it?
I tend towards "no free will", but I am still an agnostic about it; may be because "no free will" is so counter-intuitive :)
Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.

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