One single question can finish the story of Atheism!

[debunker]

@ wizard

The science of evolution humbles man by reminding him that he started as an ejaculate from a frigging penis of an ape! Get prepared for greater humbling.

and way way before apes we came from single-celled organisms... the bottomline is everything comes from the same Periodic Table... I am humbled alright.

[debunker]

@ sky

The verse you brought has nothing to do with what I said.

[skynightblaze]

@ sky

The verse you brought has nothing to do with what I said.

How can you say that? THe verse 2:85 clearly suggests that you have to believe everything in the quran as against your claim that all the verses in the quran are not for all times.If you say some verses from the quran are not applicable today that means you are cherry picking and showing disbelief in some which goes against 2:85.

[debunker]

@ sky

ok first off, 2:85 was adressing the Jews. It basically says that one should not ignore parts of their religion.

But true, one cannot be a Muslim if they believe in some verses and reject some. This, however, does NOT mean that all the verses are for ALL time. In fact, there are verses that were frozen even when Muhammed was still alive (for example, the verses related to drinking: the earlier ones were obsolete even when he was stilll alive).

I usually cite such verses that were made obsolete even before the prophet's death to *try* to silence the vast majority of Muslims who do claim that ALL verses are for ALL time... and if that was not enough, I cite the following verse:

5:3
..... This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion....

This means that the religion was completed on that day (of pilgrimmage). Note that pilgrimmage is the 5-th pillar of the religion and with it the religion was completed... so for those Muslims who claim ALL Quranic verses to be parts of the religion, the above verse should (hopefully) clarify the falsehood of this invented Islamic doctorine.

[skynightblaze]

I usually cite such verses that were made obsolete even before the prophet's death to *try* to silence the vast majority of Muslims who do claim that ALL verses are for ALL time... and if that was not enough, I cite the following verse:

5:3
..... This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion....

This means that the religion was completed on that day (of pilgrimmage). Note that pilgrimmage is the 5-th pillar of the religion and with it the religion was completed... so for those Muslims who claim ALL Quranic verses to be parts of the religion, the above verse should (hopefully) clarify the falsehood of this invented Islamic doctorine.

.Anyhow this verse is erroneous. Its obvious that quran is addressing the entire mankind here as it clearly mentions that religion of islam is made for you(mankind ).Entire mankind includes even the muslims and pagans of those times so ideally religion of islam is complete even for them but still quran goes further and adds chapter 9 and chapter 110 which were revealed after chapter 5 . Chapter 9 gives guidance to muslims of those times and verses after 5:3 from chapter 5 contain the verses that act as a guidance to entire mankind including muslims of those times. 5:3 should have been the last verse since its talking about completion. IF the religion of islam was complete for mankind(which includes muslims of those times) then why is it again addressing the mankind in the part revealed after 5:3?

@ sky

ok first off, 2:85 was adressing the Jews. It basically says that one should not ignore parts of their religion.

But true, one cannot be a Muslim if they believe in some verses and reject some. This, however, does NOT mean that all the verses are for ALL time. In fact, there are verses that were frozen even when Muhammed was still alive (for example, the verses related to drinking: the earlier ones were obsolete even when he was stilll alive).

I accept that without seeing the context of that verse I put it here however it doesnt make sense that quran scolds the jews for not following the scripture in entirety and at the same time allow its followers to do the same for which it criticizes the jews. Further If one cant reject some verses from quran then it means he has to believe in all the verses.



The obsolete verses(for e.g applicable to only muhhamad ) that you are talking are a short coming of quran rather than they indicating the fact that all the quran is not for all times.If some verses are not applicable today then you are showing disbelief in them . IS this not true? IF you are showing disbelief it means you are not following/believing in all the verses. IF thats the case then it means you are violating teachins of quran .If you dont want to violate the teachings of quran then you must also believe in verses addressed to muhhamad(though it sounds stupid) and therefore I say that its a shortcoming of quran that it included verses addressed only to muhhamad.Logically as I showed you , you have to believe in those verses too .It only indicates that quran was stupid to make wild claims. Also Not once has quran said clearly that some of the verses are not for all times.Anyway lets see another verse:

2.185.
Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind

How do you define quran? I guess its the sum of all verses from chapter 1 to chapter 114. If this verse says that quran(sum of all verses) is a guide to mankind is it again required to state that all the verses from the quran are a guide to mankind? and not some Its implicitly understood.Saying quran is a guide to mankind is sufficient to indicate that all the verses are for entire mankind otherwise you have to accept that the verses that are outdated can be removed from the quran and the remaining portion can still be called a complete quran.

Also what about the meteorites being referred to "falling sky"argument?

[debunker]

@ sky

I'll answer very briefly.

- you apparently have wrong definition of what religion is.

- the quran scolded the jews for ignoring MAJOR parts of their religion (killing each other, etc).

- the burden of proof lies upon you to show that ALL the Quran is for ALL time. I tried to convince you there's obvious evidence to the contrary but you wouldn't be convinced (unsurprisingly)... anyway... it's your burden to prove your positive assertion.

- the word Quran doesn't necessarily mean all of Quran... for example, the very first verses of Quran were revealed in Ramadan (the verse you listed)... it depends on the context.

- as for metoerites/falling sky: there are a million ways of saying the same thing... it's more colorful.

[skynightblaze]

@ sky

I'll answer very briefly.

- you apparently have wrong definition of what religion is.

- the quran scolded the jews for ignoring MAJOR parts of their religion (killing each other, etc).

- the burden of proof lies upon you to show that ALL the Quran is for ALL time. I tried to convince you there's obvious evidence to the contrary but you wouldn't be convinced (unsurprisingly)... anyway... it's your burden to prove your positive assertion.

- the word Quran doesn't necessarily mean all of Quran... for example, the very first verses of Quran were revealed in Ramadan (the verse you listed)... it depends on the context.

- as for metoerites/falling sky: there are a million ways of saying the same thing... it's more colorful.

I still dont understand why you try to make sense out of something when there exists none. No kafir here would think as you think. Quran according to me is every single verse from chapter 1 to chapter 114. I dont think so thats illogical . It seems that we would never agree. I still dont understand why you are still a muslim . As far as I know you , you are too intelligent to remain a muslim for your entire life.

[Waza-Minooo44]

I guess they called it atom because of recent discoveries. Am I right ? Also I dont even need to refute this fool.IF quran used an arabic word that stands for atom it means it must already be available in the arabic language. IF it was available that means it was known earlier to the arabs about atoms.Why should quran be given the credit for merely using a word that was already available in arabic language ? I dont think so thats the case. The word must be meaning very small which is why today people call it atom.

what if i told you Atomic number of Iron is mentioned in the quran ??? Would you believe ?

watch this video from (2:55/3:31)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1APv22LdEnc[/youtube]

I am not saying scriptures should be telling us science but if they do attempt to tell us something relating to science then they better get it right or keep quiet. My take is no religion is from God and thats why we find this absurdity.Religion is man made concept and thats why no religion can live with time.It becomes outdated.

The refusal to believe in anything you can't see yourself is absurd . Think about it? I never saw Napoleon with my own eyes, but that doesn't mean Napoleon didn't exist."~Richard Dawkin

so according to Richard Dawkins YOU ARE ABSURD !!

Canopy?????

You also said in your post that falling sky referred to meteorites since people of those times understood "falling sky" as meteorites. Where is the proof for this? I would like to know from where you got this idea that people during those times called meteorites the "falling sky".Infact they believed that the sky was solid. This was a common belief of those times(I will find some quotes). So if quran was explaining people from their point of view then its more likely that it referred to solid sky because that was the belief of people.

Again your are giving your own interpretation !

[Muslim scholar : Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs]
(Who hath appointed the earth a resting-place for you), a place for dwelling and sleeping, (and the sky a canopy), raised high above; (and causeth water to pour down from the sky), i.e. rain, (thereby producing) through this rain (fruits) different kinds of fruit (as food for you) as sustenance for you and all created beings. (So do not set up rivals to Allah) do not say that Allah has peers, different forms or coequals (when you know) that He is the fashioner of all these things. It is also said that (when you know) means: when you know from your own scripture that Allah does not have a son, coequal or peer.

A simple legal term = "Affirmati, non neganti incumbit probatio", i.e. The burden of proof rests upon him who affirms, not on him who denies.

it's not my problem !!it's YOUR PROBLEM ! now prove your position

Q) can you bring ONE SINGLE CONCLUSIVE ARGUMENT that disprove the existence of intelligent design being ??

a•the•ist (ā'thē-ĭst)
n. One who DISBELIEVES OR DENIES the existence intelligent design being.

It says denies !!! do you see it or you need microscope ?

It is difficult to argue with waza as he is committed himself with foolery and his own delusory inventions of grandeur truths from trivial statements from ‘holy’ scriptures.

Me too I'm not ready to believe in POKEMON(evolution) anymore!! because evolution is that we never see the shifting between shapes in the fossil record. ALL FOSSILS ARE OF COMPLETE ANIMALS AND PLANTS, NOT WORKS IN PROGRESS "UNDER CONSTRUCTION". That is why we can give each distinct plant or animal a name. If evolution's continuous morphing were really going on, every fossil would show change underway throughout the creature, with parts in various stages of completion. For every successful change there should be many more that lead to nothing. The whole process is random trial and error, without direction. So every plant and animal, living or fossil, should be covered inside and out with useless growths and have parts under construction. It is a grotesque image, and just what the theory of evolution really predicts. Even Charles Darwin had a glimpse of the problem in his day. He wrote in his book
On the Origin of Species: "THE NUMBER OF INTERMEDIATE VARIETIES WHICH HAVE FORMERLY EXISTED ON EARTH MUST BE TRULY ENORMOUS. WHY THEN IS NOT EVERY GEOLOGICAL FORMATION AND EVERY STRATUM FULL OF SUCH INTERMEDIATE LINKS? GEOLOGY ASSUREDLY DOES NOT REVEAL ANY SUCH FINELY GRADUATED ORGANIC CHAIN; AND THIS, PERHAPS, IS THE MOST OBVIOUS AND GRAVEST OBJECTION WHICH CAN BE URGED AGAINST MY THEORY."~Charles Darwin

This kind of compulsive obsession with delusory invention has become characteristics of almost all religions.

Ooh really what about Aristotle ?? IS HE RELIGIOUS ?? as you claim

Aristotle, Metaphysics, Book 12 (Lambda) chapters 6-10
[Sed quoniam tres sunt] Since there were three kinds of substance, two of them physical and one unmovable, regarding the latter we must assert that it is necessary that there should be an eternal unmovable substance. For substances are the first of existing things, and if they are all destructible, all things are destructible. But it is impossible that movement should either have come into being or cease to be (for it must always have existed), or that time should. For there could not be a before and an after if time did not exist. Movement also is continuous, then, in the sense in which time is; for time is either the same thing as movement or an attribute of movement. And there is no continuous movement except movement in place, and of this only that which is circular is continuous.

There is a design here. Who created it?

sand particles range in diameter from 0.0625 (or 1⁄16 mm, or 62.5 micrometers) to 2 millimeters.



WELL IT'S Desing mr.atheist because i'm rational whereas you , YOU are irriantional for example :

who design ??

Where as this blackhole does not require a creator or designer. It is simply an energy form.

energy form but the question is WHAT IS BEHIND THIS ENERGY ??? because you know the law of thermodynamics the first Law ! Energy can't be created

The primordial energy is neither a person nor it necessitates a person to design or create it.

so you are telling me Creation can create it self ??? doest it make sense to you ??

For example : Ferrari can Design it self ??? THIS IS ABSURD !

Who designed the God? If God, such a complex design can exist without no one designing him why not the simple matter can exist by itself? How energy takes the form of matter, space, time and life is somewhat known to science.

The answer is that the question does not even make sense. It is like asking, “What does blue smell like?” Blue is not in the category of things that have a smell, so the question itself is imperfect. In the same way, God is not in the category of things that are created or caused. God is uncaused and uncreated—He simply exists.

How do we know this? We know that from nothing, nothing comes. Thus, if there were ever a time when there was absolutely nothing in existence, then nothing would have ever come into existence. But things do exist. As a result, since there could never have been absolutely nothing, something had to have always been in existence. That ever-existing thing is what we call God. God is the uncaused Being that caused everything else to come into existence. God is the uncreated Creator who created the universe and everything in it.

This simple machine transforms one form of energy into another requiring no God

Man you are funny I'M ASKING HOW COME THIS SIMPLE MACHINE COME TO EXISTENCE ??? by HUMAN design ! Mr.atheist

A 1315 illustration from the Persian Jami al-Tawarikh, inspired by the story of Muhammad and the Meccan clan elders lifting the Black Stone into place when the Kaaba was rebuilt in the early 600s
Islamic meteorite worship:

Mecca it self Scientific miracle !

Documentary : SECRET OF KAABA SHOCKING !
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xp6kvMJEFc[/youtube]

The pre-islamic arab was quite good at astronomy, mathematics literature etc. With Islam everything gone though quran claims otherwise. The Egyptians knew trigonometry much before Pythagoras.

Yea was good astronomy !! Whaaaaaa??? are you insane before Islam the era they call it Jahalya means the Ignorance Era !! man you need to study history

SHOW ME ONE SINGLE ARAB BEFORE ISLAM ARE good in astronomy ??? show me

that this primitive pervert mohammed knew all about planets and their orbits! He does not seem to know however, his contemporaries and ancestors should have known as we see them in the Sumerian tablets of 2000-3000 BCE.

is Muhammad archeology ??? If the man is illiterate he doesn't know read nor write his OWN LANGUAGE how do you expect from him know about Tablets ?? does it make sense to you ?

atom is etymologically not further reducible (a+tom where “a” is a negative prefix and “tom” means cut). That means small. It is just a metaphor. (Indeed this word is a misnomer- atom is further dividable- infinitely dividable- till it reaches quanta- which is the underlying vibrant energy )

in the quran it says weight of an atom and by the way i provide you a link the atomic number for Iron is revealed !!!

Quran condemns those who believe only a part of quran. As per you some of the verses from quran are not for today so it essentially means that one has to believe only in part of the quran today and not the whole but quran expects you to believe in all those verses completely . So there lies the problem with your argument so my question still remains valid i,e Why send us to hell and torture us for not believing in quran when its written from a 7th century perspective which can hardly make anyone believe in quran today?

Mr.atheist why you are giving your own interpretation ??

Wizard..good points....and dont waste ur time replying to this thread here after.....Its waste of time to talk about god/religion to a strict religious person.Eventhough not all religious people are same.Some dont use to discuss about these.They have belief too,but not 100 %.They just do their work..

the coward would run from this debate ! THEN YOU ARE PROVING TO ME YOU AREN'T atheist ! you are theist because you are unable to answer my question

Q) can you bring ONE SINGLE CONCLUSIVE ARGUMENT that disprove the existence of intelligent design being ??


is there any atheist have the courge to answer my simple question ??? the answer is NO

k first off, 2:85 was adressing the Jews. It basically says that one should not ignore parts of their religion.

But true, one cannot be a Muslim if they believe in some verses and reject some. This, however, does NOT mean that all the verses are for ALL time. In fact, there are verses that were frozen even when Muhammed was still alive (for example, the verses related to drinking: the earlier ones were obsolete even when he was stilll alive).

I usually cite such verses that were made obsolete even before the prophet's death to *try* to silence the vast majority of Muslims who do claim that ALL verses are for ALL time... and if that was not enough, I cite the following verse:

5:3
..... This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion....

This means that the religion was completed on that day (of pilgrimmage). Note that pilgrimmage is the 5-th pillar of the religion and with it the religion was completed... so for those Muslims who claim ALL Quranic verses to be parts of the religion, the above verse should (hopefully) clarify the falsehood of this invented Islamic doctorine.

Again Giving your own interpretation !!

Quran 2:85

[ Muslim scholar : Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs ]
(Yet ye it is who slay each other and drive out a party of your people from their homes, supporting one another against them by sin) contravention (and transgression) offence-(and if they came to you as captives) captives who belong to your religion (ye would ransom them) free them by paying a ransom to the enemy (-whereas their expulsion was itself unlawful for you) whereas their expulsion and killing were unlawful in the first place. (Believe ye in part of the Scripture) the part that stipulates freeing your captives from the enemy (and disbelieve ye in part thereof?) and leave the captives of your friends without ransoming them. It is also said that this verse means: do you believe in those parts of the scripture that suit your whim and disbelieve in those parts that do not? (And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world) by being killed or captured as slaves, (and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom. For Allah is not unaware) He is not reducing your punishment because (of what ye do) in terms of transgression; and it is also said: because of what they concealed.


-------------------------------------------------

would you believe ??? who knows maybe

The wrapping of muscles over the bones

"(We) then formed the drop into a clot and formed the clot into a lump and formed the lump into bones and clothed the bones in flesh; and then brought him into being as another creature. Blessed be God, the Best of Creators!"
(The Qur'an, 23:14)



The bones of the baby completing its development in the mother's womb are clothed with flesh during one particular stage.

Embryology is the branch of science that studies the development of the embryo in the mother's womb. Until very recently, embryologists assumed that the bones and muscles in an embryo developed at the same time. For this reason, for a long time, some people claimed that these verses conflicted with science. Yet, advanced microscopic research conducted by virtue of new technological developments has revealed that the revelation of the Qur'an is word for word correct.

These remarks at the microscopic level showed that the development inside the mother's womb takes place in just the way it is described in the verses. First, the cartilage tissue of the embryo ossifies. Then muscular cells that are selected from amongst the tissue around the bones come together and wrap around the bones.

This event is described in a scientific publication titled Developing Human in the following words:

"During the seventh week, the skeleton begins to spread throughout the body and the bones take their familiar shapes. At the end of the seventh week and during the eighth week the muscles take their positions around the bone forms."


the bones of the baby complete its development in the mother's womb are clothed with flesh during one particular stage.

[skynightblaze]

I guess they called it atom because of recent discoveries. Am I right ? Also I dont even need to refute this fool.IF quran used an arabic word that stands for atom it means it must already be available in the arabic language. IF it was available that means it was known earlier to the arabs about atoms.Why should quran be given the credit for merely using a word that was already available in arabic language ? I dont think so thats the case. The word must be meaning very small which is why today people call it atom.

what if i told you Atomic number of Iron is mentioned in the quran ??? Would you believe ?

watch this video from (2:55/3:31)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1APv22LdEnc[/youtube]

and what IF showed that your miracle has already been debunked and is complete crap?


CANT BELIEVE??? SEE THE LINK BELOW. READ THE SECOND POST

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=999141

I am not saying scriptures should be telling us science but if they do attempt to tell us something relating to science then they better get it right or keep quiet. My take is no religion is from God and thats why we find this absurdity.Religion is man made concept and thats why no religion can live with time.It becomes outdated.

The refusal to believe in anything you can't see yourself is absurd . Think about it? I never saw Napoleon with my own eyes, but that doesn't mean Napoleon didn't exist."~Richard Dawkin

so according to Richard Dawkins YOU ARE ABSURD !!

Where did I say that I dont believe in anything that I cannot see? I need evidence and logic to believe in something . In case of GOd you have none. In case of Napolean we do have evidence that he existed.

Canopy?????

You also said in your post that falling sky referred to meteorites since people of those times understood "falling sky" as meteorites. Where is the proof for this? I would like to know from where you got this idea that people during those times called meteorites the "falling sky".Infact they believed that the sky was solid. This was a common belief of those times(I will find some quotes). So if quran was explaining people from their point of view then its more likely that it referred to solid sky because that was the belief of people.

Again your are giving your own interpretation !

[Muslim scholar : Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs]
(Who hath appointed the earth a resting-place for you), a place for dwelling and sleeping, (and the sky a canopy), raised high above; (and causeth water to pour down from the sky), i.e. rain, (thereby producing) through this rain (fruits) different kinds of fruit (as food for you) as sustenance for you and all created beings. (So do not set up rivals to Allah) do not say that Allah has peers, different forms or coequals (when you know) that He is the fashioner of all these things. It is also said that (when you know) means: when you know from your own scripture that Allah does not have a son, coequal or peer.

It seems that you are posting here without even bothering to read what you have written. My intepretation infact matches with Tafsir scholar's interpretation.Ibn abbas says SKY IS A CANOPY OR ROOF RAISED ABOVE. .This means a solid sky.

Bring as many miracles as you can from the quran and preferrably post them in quran and the hadith section (as I dont think this is the appropriate folder) and see them get debunked within no time. You have been shown 3 errors by myself. You couldnt address a single one. Please address them or accept quran is not from any GOD.

[Agnostic Indian]

@Waza-Minooo44

kindly also show the verse where it mentions about petrol.It's the only discovery of the stupid kafirs that has worked against them through petro-islam


now i do agree that the law of energy conservation is a scientific fact.But you miss the implication of this fact!

whatever we see as matter ..is essentially a conversion of part of that 'initial' energy

if you call it allah ...right from the tadpole to the milky way to the black holes is nothing but a part conversion of allah into these material things.

the allah of the quran violates the principal of energy conservation because he is presumed to be separate from 'creation'

creation is nothing but a phenomenal transformation of that energy!

there is no creator god ..the maximum i can condone is that we are all unrealized gods..but that too i don't know

[Agnostic Indian]

let me help the atheists

Q) can you bring ONE SINGLE CONCLUSIVE ARGUMENT that disprove the existence of intelligent design being ??

Answer:

1.An Intelligent design being would not be dumb to make an illiterate person blurt out the quran under the influence of a spirit.The intelligent design being would have made quran a part of everybody's memory bank rather than a collation of leaflets (of which some were eaten by goats)

2.An intelligent design being would not find it difficult to make his appearance felt to the atheists & agnostics on FFI

3. An intelligent design being does not take 2 billion years to create man and another 1.99 billion years to choose an illiterate prophet to send his message.

The maximum mankind has taken to create the Ferraris and supersonics is not even 200 years!

seems mankind is far more intelligent 'that' intelligent being who created mankind !!!!!!!! why the hell should mankind pray 5 times a day to a billion times less intelligent creature than itself?

4.An intelligent design being could have created zillions of muslims in trillions of planets ..but that is not the case.he seems too fixated on planet earth's muslims which consitute


Now a deeper thing to ponder about.....

intelligence is relative ..can't exist on it's own
being is space-time bound ..that means this being has to be essentially a part of the creation and hence not the creator but a phenomenon of creation

the being has to be somewhere to create ..but by being somewhere ..the being itself becomes a part of the creation..

you can't create creation from within ..nor from without ..so forget about creation.

the universe(manifest or unmanifest) always was/is and will remain ..it's just that the transformations will keep happening infinitely in the hypothetical physical-time

[Whale]

I guess they called it atom because of recent discoveries. Am I right ? Also I dont even need to refute this fool.IF quran used an arabic word that stands for atom it means it must already be available in the arabic language. IF it was available that means it was known earlier to the arabs about atoms.Why should quran be given the credit for merely using a word that was already available in arabic language ? I dont think so thats the case. The word must be meaning very small which is why today people call it atom.

what if i told you Atomic number of Iron is mentioned in the quran ??? Would you believe ?

According to Wikipedia:

In the late fifth century BC, Leucippus and his pupil Democritus founded the atomist doctrine, theorizing that the natural world was composed of two, fundamentally different substances - atoms and void.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomism

Gosh all you guys gotta do is use Google. So if Quran used the word atom, this was nothing again but Muhammad copying stuff from greeks - just like he did in the wrong science of 86:6 (semen comes from backbones)

[Waza-Minooo44]

and what IF showed that your miracle has already been debunked and is complete crap?


CANT BELIEVE??? SEE THE LINK BELOW. READ THE SECOND POST

Discovery channel backfires you but the most important thing is the atomic number is their !!!

Discovery channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL3x0kJk4S8

Where did I say that I dont believe in anything that I cannot see? I need evidence and logic to believe in something . In case of GOd you have none. In case of Napolean we do have evidence that he existed.

first of all , are you telling me you don't believe in Atoms ??? if you can't see atom with Naked eyes does this proof Atoms doesn't exist ??? see how irrational you are !

you need evidence and logic , ASK YOUR SELF THIS QUESTION ! what is the first cause ?

The first cause argument (or cosmological argument) takes the existence of the universe to entail the existence of a being that created it. It does so based on the fact that the universe had a beginning. There must, the first cause argument says, be something that caused that beginning, a first cause of the universe.
The universe consists of a series of events stretched across time in a long causal chain. Each one of these events is the cause of the event that comes after it, and the effect of the event that comes before it. The world as it is came from the world as it was, which came from the world as it was before. but if we trace these event we will end up with the first cause ! otherwise we won't exist !

SKY IS A CANOPY OR ROOF RAISED ABOVE. .This means a solid sky.

I WILL TELL YOU What does it mean it means Protected roof Mr.atheist

Who has made the earth a resting place for you, and the sky as a canopy, and sent down water (rain) from the sky and brought forth therewith fruits as a provision for you. Then do not set up rivals unto Allah (in worship) while you know (that He Alone has the right to be worshipped).[Quran 2:22 ]

"We made the sky a preserved and protected roof yet still they turn away from Our Signs.."
(The Qur'an, 21:32)

And We have made the heavens as a canopy well guarded: yet do they turn away from the Signs which these things (point to)!(The Qur'an, 21:32)


the canopy means sky is preserved and protected

In the late fifth century BC, Leucippus and his pupil Democritus founded the atomist doctrine, theorizing that the natural world was composed of two, fundamentally different substances - atoms and void.

the Greek didn't know the one who discover it !the only thing that the greek Democritus The reason why they assumed this is because nothing can come from nothing. John Dalton he discover the atoms WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU ? you didn't study high school or what ?

This is from http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/c ... m99396.htm

Who discovered the atom?

A simple question, but deceptively complicated.
What does it mean to "discover" something?
The first person to propose that matter was made
of atoms, and then write it down, was a Greek philosopher
named Democritus. BUT HE HAD NO EXPERIMENTAL PROOF OF HIS
NOTION. Then, a number of scientists, starting probably with Newton in
the late 1600s, PROPOSED A CORPUSCULAR, OR ATOMIC, MODEL. BUT IT
WASN'T UNTIL THE LATE 1700S/EARLY 1800S THAT JOHN DALTON PROPOSED
THAT ALL MATTER WAS MADE OF ATOMS and actually used it to explain
a bunch of experiments that had been done on gases, AND TO CALCULATE
ATOMIC WEIGHTS OF ELEMENTS.

in another word it was discovered in 1800s !!!! the holy quran was revealed before 1400 years ago !!!!

IN FACT IT MENTIONED ABOUT proton and neutron !! proton and neutron are Greek names

Glory be to Him WHO CREATED ALL THE PAIRS: from what the earth produces and from themselves AND FROM THINGS UNKNOWN TO THEM."
(The Qur'an, 37:36)

this was nothing again but Muhammad copying stuff from greeks

do you know what is the funny thing is ! we have man he is illiterate he doesn't know read nor write PLUS do you know how hard to translate from Arabic to Greek !!! by the way have you heard the story to those who Translate from Greek language to another language ??? i'm not sure but at the era 7th or 6th century anyone who translate the greek books he will be killed !! and by the way there is no Historical record or even oral tradition that Muhammad stole or PLAGIARIZED from greek book . there is something i don't get it ?? how can illiterate man interested in Atoms ??? it doesn't' make any sense at all !

the allah of the quran violates the principal of energy conservation because he is presumed to be separate from 'creation'

Mr. agnostic why are you in this site ??? it say's Atheism !

[a-1 + Gnostic.]
ag·nos'ti·cal·ly adv.
An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist.

now Answer my question what is the first cause ?

=====================================================

i will respond on Thursday see you !

[Methinx]

now Answer my question what is the first cause ?

First Cause.

The issue of contingency and first cause has been debated many times.

Whilst it is true that all physical things have beginnings and everything in the universe has a cause, most things in the universe do not have a reason.
Logical contingency does not equal empirical contingency.
In any event, "the universe" is a collection of material things, not a "collection of concepts."
The lowest common denominator of all things in the universe is physical energy. So the best guess at the moment is that physical energy is the first cause.

Furthermore, how does the non contingent necessary cause translate into the Abrahamic God?

The First Cause: why must it be non-material?
And how would not-material interact with material?
And why non-material does not require a cause?
Why does it have to be intelligent?
Why does it have to be supernatural?
Is the "first cause by necessity a singular entity? What prevents multiple causal agents?

With regards to miracles in the Quran...here is a list of non-miracles:

http://www.1000mistakes.com/

Have fun reading.

[Waza-Minooo44]

With regards to miracles in the Quran...here is a list of non-miracles:

http://www.1000mistakes.com/

Have fun reading.

Gerd Mahler, Poste Restante Main Post Office, London, GB, (Europe).

It's vague that this person from London who doesn't know Arabic the basic language of the quran he is trying to give his OWN INTERPRETATION !!! from translated book !! i thought this man graduate from Islamic University such as Al-Azhar university . do you know what is the funny thing is this illiterate he said that Allah is a concocted word from Muhammad creation !! I'M ASKING WHAT about Aramaic language ? Did Jesus said Yahweh or Allah ??? see how irrational this man . in my opinion this man if
he want to play hide seek with Quran he should at least learn Arabic !!! and by the way the Arabic in the quran is FAR SUPERIOR .THE ONLY WAY to convince them , IS TO SHOW THEM MIRCALE , THERE ARE countless miracles in the quran but the question is ! how can backward people at his era would believe?? will they

believe in Embrology ?? or scientific ?? NO the only way to convince this people , this is from god is to recite this Quran infont of them because the Arabs at his era were Master in Poetry !

The famous Arabist from University of Oxford, Hamilton Gibb was open upon about the style of the Qur'an. In his words:

".the MECCANS (Arab people at his time ) STILL DEMANDED OF HIM A MIRACLE, and with remarkable boldness and self confidence Mohammad appealed as a SUPREME CONFIRMATION OF HIS MISSION to the Koran itself. LIKE ALL ARABS THEY WERE THE CONNOISSEURS OF LANGUAGE AND RHETORIC. Well, then IF THE KORAN WERE HIS OWN COMPOSITION OTHER MEN COULD RIVAL IT. Let them PRODUCE TEN VERSES LIKE IT. If they could not (and it is obvious that they could not), THEN LET THEM ACCEPT THE KORAN AS AN OUTSTANDING EVIDENT MIRACLE."



Lastly, the beautiful style of the Qur'an is admired even by the Arab Christians:-

"The Quran is one of the world's classics which cannot be translated without grave loss. It has a rhythm of peculiar beauty and a cadence that charms the ear. MANY CHRISTIAN ARABS SPEAK OF ITS STYLE WITH WARM ADMIRATION, AND MOST ARABISTS ACKNOWLEDGE ITS EXCELLENCE. WHEN IT IS READ ALOUD OR RECITED IT HAS AN ALMOST HYPNOTIC EFFECT THAT MAKES THE LISTENER INDIFFERENT TO ITS SOMETIMES STRANGE SYNTAX AND ITS SOMETIMES, TO US, REPELLENT CONTENT. IT IS THIS QUALITY IT POSSESSES OF SILENCING CRITICISM BY THE SWEET MUSIC OF ITS LANGUAGE THAT HAS GIVEN BIRTH TO THE DOGMA OF ITS INIMITABILITY; INDEED IT MAY BE AFFIRMED THAT WITHIN THE LITERATURE OF THE ARABS, wide and fecund as it is both in poetry and in elevated prose, THERE IS NOTHING TO COMPARE WITH IT."


Aramaic Dictionary
http://www.atour.com/dictionary/

Meaning: God
Pronunciation: (Eastern) AaLaH
(Western) AaLoH

Detailed rebuttals to the so called "Errors" in the Noble Quran:
http://answering-christianity.com/quran/quranerr.htm

[RichardTheLionheart]

It's vague that this person from London who doesn't know Arabic the basic language of the quran he is trying to give his OWN INTERPRETATION !!!

So? Muslims reject the Bible without knowing Hebrew or Greek. They reject the Bhagavad Gita without knowing Sanskrit and many Buddhist texts without knowing Tibetan or Chinese.

This translation fallacy is just a diversion tactic.

"The Quran is one of the world's classics which cannot be translated without grave loss.

Not much of a classic then is it?
Strange how any other book can be adequately translated except this supposed "Word of God".

Pathetic.

[Waza-Minooo44]

Muslims reject the Bible without knowing Hebrew or Greek.

you forgot something !!! Arabic and Hebrew are sister languages in another word they can understand both Arabic and Hebrew . but still we rejected because there are Inscest !!! not only that it gives us technique how to rape our sister !!!


[2 Samuel 13:6-14 ]
6 So Amnon lay down and PRETENDED TO BE ILL. When the king came to see him, Amnon said to him, "I would like MY SISTER TAMAR to come and make some special bread in my sight, so I MAY EAT FROM HER HAND."
7 David sent word to Tamar at the palace: "Go to the house of your brother Amnon and prepare some food for him." 8 So Tamar went to the house of her brother Amnon, who was lying down. She took some dough, kneaded it, made the bread in his sight and baked it. 9 Then she took the pan and served him the bread, but he refused to eat.
"Send everyone out of here," Amnon said. So everyone left him. 10 Then Amnon said to Tamar, "Bring the food here into my bedroom so I may eat from your hand." And Tamar took the bread she had prepared and brought it to her brother Amnon in his bedroom. 11 But when she took it to him to eat, HE GRABBED HER AND SAID, "COME TO BED WITH ME, MY SISTER."
12 "DON'T, MY BROTHER!" she said to him. "DON'T FORCE ME. Such a thing should not be done in Israel! Don't do this wicked thing. 13 What about me? Where could I get rid of my disgrace? And what about you? You would be like one of the wicked fools in Israel. Please speak to the king; he will not keep me from being married to you." 14 But HE REFUSED TO LISTEN TO HER, and since he was stronger than she, he RAPED her.

excellent strategy !!! he RAPED HIS SISTER ! LOLZ do you see now why Muslim reject the bible !! i wish if there is movie on this !! because this is sound romantic

Not much of a classic then is it?
Strange how any other book can be adequately translated except this supposed "Word of God".

Don't quote out of CONTEXT mr. atheist quote the entire text

"The Quran is one of the world's classics which cannot be translated without grave loss. It has a rhythm of peculiar beauty and a cadence that charms the ear. MANY CHRISTIAN ARABS SPEAK OF ITS STYLE WITH WARM ADMIRATION, AND MOST ARABISTS ACKNOWLEDGE ITS EXCELLENCE. WHEN IT IS READ ALOUD OR RECITED IT HAS AN ALMOST HYPNOTIC EFFECT THAT MAKES THE LISTENER INDIFFERENT TO ITS SOMETIMES STRANGE SYNTAX AND ITS SOMETIMES, TO US, REPELLENT CONTENT. IT IS THIS QUALITY IT POSSESSES OF SILENCING CRITICISM BY THE SWEET MUSIC OF ITS LANGUAGE THAT HAS GIVEN BIRTH TO THE DOGMA OF ITS INIMITABILITY; INDEED IT MAY BE AFFIRMED THAT WITHIN THE LITERATURE OF THE ARABS, wide and fecund as it is both in poetry and in elevated prose, THERE IS NOTHING TO COMPARE WITH IT."

The issue of contingency and first cause has been debated many times.

Whilst it is true that all physical things have beginnings and everything in the universe has a cause, most things in the universe do not have a reason.
Logical contingency does not equal empirical contingency.
In any event, "the universe" is a collection of material things, not a "collection of concepts."
The lowest common denominator of all things in the universe is physical energy. So the best guess at the moment is that physical energy is the first cause.

i will tell you what i mean . if we trace the time elapse to the first beginning it will lead us to the big bang . now what cause the big bang to work ??? according to NASA they say it happened by T.I.M.E. and some mysterious energy because the universe keep Expanding by time elapse !!!! the only way that will work is by being doesn't effect him the TIME DURATION WHICH IS G.O.D !!! God is eternal doesn't effect him time duration

[RichardTheLionheart]

Muslims reject the Bible without knowing Hebrew or Greek.

you forgot something !!! Arabic and Hebrew are sister languages

And Sanskrit, Tibetan and Chinese aren't. Yet you still reject Buddhism, Hinduism etc...

The Biblical quotes are irrelevant as I'm not a believer in the bible either.

Not much of a classic then is it?
Strange how any other book can be adequately translated except this supposed "Word of God".

[Don't quote out of CONTEXT mr. atheist quote the entire text

There is no context needed. If the Koran is a book for all mankind it should be relevant and poetical in any language,not just Arabic.

[skynightblaze]

First, I never mentioned the Quran, because it irrelevant in this discussion.

You claim yourself to be a muslim so how can GOD OF quran be irrelevant to our discussion? GOD of quran must be your GOD if you are a muslim otherwise you are an apostate who has his own definition of GOD.So when I bring in GOD of quran I am talking relevant to the discussion that we both are having if not relevant to others.

During my initial days on the forum I had my own definition of GOD but somehow as time passed I couldnt lie to myself as I knew that flaws could be shown in what I thought and thats why I declared myself as an atheist.

Now, the notion of infinity is a bit tricky. But answering your question, the answer is NO! An infinite God doesn't have to be in touch with this world... your're implying that two infinite worlds cannot coexist which is incorrect... You can have infinite number of infinite parallel worlds... you also can have infinity within infinity, you can even have infinity with limits, etc.

Dont you think you are making too many assumptions? First of all there is no proof that GOD exists .On top of that you are now assuming that GOD could be infinite with finite limits or could be anything. You are building a castle of conclusions based on assumptions . If you say that GOD is infinite with finite limits etc etc then you need to prove it otherwise these are merely possibilities. Possibilities cannot be taken as facts.

For the time being lets assume that universe existed since infinity.Eventhough I am an atheist I have a slightly different view than the views of other atheists . Yes I believe in cause and effect theory as it seems to validate almost all things that I see around so ideally I cannot argue that universe existed from the beginning without any cause.

If you ask me to explain the logic behind infinite existence of universe I would say there has to be a cause but I cannot explain what that cause could be because I simply don’t know .Its as simple as that.Theist chose to attribute it to God but again this is just an assumption which hardly can be proven so I think the best position to be in to keep quiet and not draw any conclusion so you see atheism stems from lack of evidence.

Actually, it IS possible for the universe to exist without a creator if it is infinite and beginningless... if either of these two conditions are violated then a creator IS required simply because something cannot come out of nothing UNLESS if this something is infinite an beginningless.

I dont believe in this .I dont disagree with the fact that universe had a beginning but I am only saying I dont know how it came into existence.The logic used by you is not self evident or self explanatory.Its again as Charles explained a fallacy i.e GOD OF GAPS. I can only say that there must be a cause which I dont know rather than saying that GOD must be the one who created it only because universe had a beginning.

Theists try to define the unknown which I think is beyond our capacity .You have to assume something to make sense. Theists call it GOD because it makes sense to them. I prefer not to assume anything because there could or could not be multiple unknown(yet to be discovered) theories/causes which could make sense in defining the mystery at hand which is why I assume nothing .When something is not concrete its always safe not to assume.Thats my policy.

Well, I'm not trying to "define" God, here... I'm only arguing for his existence... and assuming the theory that the universe being both infinite and beginningless, is correct then all what is left as evidence for God is to look for elements of awareness being part of the process of creation of this world... Another obvious, yet stubbornly neglected, evidence is the fact that we are, after all, physical beings with non-physical attributes.

Dont you think you are speculating things? Could it be that we dont have sufficient knowledge to draw conclusions ? Think over this.Has this possibility ever occurred to you? I dont think so I can say anything more than this.I believe that I am too amateur to use logic to draw any conclusion and thats why I am an atheist.

Anyway apart from this here is something that bothers me.

As a part of observation I feel that we as humans are very insignificant compared to universe or infinite universes.Our brain has limitations. WE cannot possibly grasp or learn everything so the question is Can a finite human brain grasp the infinite? I believe its not the case.IF you assume that there exists GOD then you attribute everything that you cant grasp or understand to GOD.In the process the notion of infinity suddenly becomes finite . I dont know whether I am right in thinking this way or not because till date I haven't shared my thoughts with anyone in real life or on the forum on the issue of GOD . Perhaps you could help.

[Fathom]

Atheist:-
a•the•ist (ā'thē-ĭst)
n. One who disbelieves or denies the existence intelligent design being.

Q) can you bring ONE SINGLE CONCLUSIVE ARGUMENT that disprove the existence of intelligent design being ??


NOW PROVE YOUR POSITION by answering my SIMPLE QUESTION if you can't then don't call your self atheist when you don't have the proof .

How does anyone disprove the existence of something that has never been proven to exist in the first place? If the "intelligent design being" has not be proven to exist in the first place, how then do we disprove nothing?

Put the intelligent design being there first, and then we'll try to disprove it exists. But if you cannot show us that it exists, then there is nothing to disprove.