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Re: Infidels must be killed

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:14 am
by Chiclets
skynightblaze wrote:
Mahiwal wrote:Regarding wife beating, I have some scenarios in my own mind where I justify a slap although I never did it....


My question to you is- Do you really need to justify violence against your wife especially when you prefer rational thinking over religious beliefs? From your posts, I assume that you have now started to give a critical thought about religion (you deserve credit for this). If we keep thinking about excuses to justify something then human mind can find plenty and you will never reach the truth. Sugar coating is just running away from the problem instead of facing it. I agree it is easier said than done for a muslim to simply discard islam because of the upbringing, family issues and bondings. However, if someone wants to improve the first thing they need to admit is that the religion is flawed and they are in error. Without admitting one's errors, no one can improve. That's the first step towards changing yourself. I know its tough but that's the only way if you want to improve. Hence, If I were you, I would simply discard such teachings and not bother about defending them. I don't have to justify anything that some illiterate moron said 1400 years ago.

If you are still emotionally attached to islam then may be you can pick things that do not harm anyone and give you peace and reject the rest of islam. However, it would be incorrect to call yourself a muslim in that case but I guess it does not matter. You can simply say you are not a muslim but you pick good aspects (or peace giving aspects that do not harm anyone) from all sources out of which islam is one. Anyway I do not intend disrespect. These are just my thoughts.


Welcome back Mahiwal, beating your "Sohni" or for that matter any other human is definitely a no-no :nono1: in my book. I am so glad that you now prefer rationality over religion.

@Sky,

Always remember that we humans are inherently conservative, by that I mean we oppose change. I know that you are a software developer like me, let me give you an example, many a times in my career I have been involved in implementing new software applications, and many a times I have successfully presented the user community with better and far improved solutions in doing their work, and most of the times our enhancements get rejected, simply because the user community is used to doing things their way (mainframe applications), the way they were taught to accomplish their work, even though the enhancement would greatly reduce their workload we could never convince them to change.

Having said that, I myself have not changed, I still love/cherish/respect my family despite them being religious, and that is something that will never change. so it us, we need to change our approach, we need to focus on being anti-religion and not anti-religious, criticize the sh!t out of beliefs (religion), not the believers, and you will see many more Mahiwals and iffos.

Re: Infidels must be killed

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:15 am
by frankie
mahiwal wrote:
frankie wrote:mahiwal:

I know it as a fact that they will ultimately listen


What reason can you give for your confidence?


That's because we are an intelligent specie and human mind is designed to be inquisitive and we tend to go with logic and reasoning( including Muslims)... You just have to create an environment conducive to rational thinking and logical thought and then sit back and watch how the amazing human mind works...

Most of them are just plain ignorant in the matters of religion, they are happy with their beliefs and do not feel the need to inquire but they do sometimes question regarding things like all non believers going to hell and death punishment for apostasy and stoning but then the lifelong brainwashing takes over and they forget about it.... They like the feeling of security that they are protected by a God....

Most of them especially the youth just needs to be presented with the other side of the argument, although they will resist in the beginning, ultimately they would give in to logic....Some of them will be hardliners, not open to new ideas or the ones with self interests will probably be at a point of no return, these are the ones who have been brought up and surrounded by extremely conservative and stubborn religionalists, they might take 20 years before they even think about giving it a thought or even never... others brought up in educated families might take less time but I truly feel a vast majority just need to be reached out and they will come out of their ignorance sooner or later....


mahiwal:

Interesting points, some of which I would agree with.

btw,are you an ex Muslim who came to know the truth about your faith by reason and logic?

Re: Infidels must be killed

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:02 pm
by skynightblaze
@ Chiclets

As far as Mahiwal is concerned, I thought that Mahiwal would take some criticism positively because it seems he has already refined his views i.e. he has changed himself to a large extent then why not a bit more for the better? That was my thought but I see your are right. I would have to agree with you that people are reluctant to change. That's human psychology. Just for the sake of discussion/thought consider this- if someone criticizes or points your errors, the first thing to do is NOT think that you are guilty. The reason is really simple- We cough, we sneeze and we make mistakes. Its as natural as that. Do we ever feel guilty if someone accuses of sneezing? Ofcourse not! we would say its only natural and obvious. We should see our mistakes similarly. If we see our mistakes that way, we would really not be so rigid and we can really bring about drastic improvements.

Anyway, as suggested by you , I will make sure that I criticize the religion and not the believers henceforth but I have a question here. What do we do when someone takes criticism of their religion as a personal attack? It happens when we debate with muslims.

Re: Infidels must be killed

PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:02 am
by iffo
@Mahiwal

Are you still muslim despite knowing all the facts about Islam/Muhammad and quran ?

Re: Infidels must be killed

PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:25 am
by Chiclets
skynightblaze wrote:@ Chiclets
Anyway, as suggested by you , I will make sure that I criticize the religion and not the believers henceforth but I have a question here. What do we do when someone takes criticism of their religion as a personal attack? It happens when we debate with muslims.


Beliefs are fair game, ridiculous beliefs exist to be destroyed, not individuals, we need to treat them as fellow human beings, just follow the golden rule.

Re: Infidels must be killed

PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:40 pm
by manfred
Ah, so that means, chiclet, that religion is not a COMPLETE crock of garbage then, as this idea of the "golden rule" was first (independently) developed by a number of religious thinkers, in Egypt, China and the Middle East, and also some other places.

Re: Infidels must be killed

PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:45 pm
by Fernando
Chiclets wrote:Beliefs are fair game, ridiculous beliefs exist to be destroyed, not individuals, we need to treat them as fellow human beings, just follow the golden rule.
Can one always make that distinction, though? A child brought up in a conservative Muslim home and madrassa can be excused for holding vicious religious views, because he was brainwashed. But can we excuse him if he turns to vicious actions? And what about someone converting to Islam, who hasn't the excuse of upbringing, and taking on these vicious views? (As seems to be the case, complete with actions, with significant numbers of terrorists.)

Re: Infidels must be killed

PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:19 am
by Chiclets
manfred wrote:Ah, so that means, chiclet, that religion is not a COMPLETE crock of garbage then, as this idea of the "golden rule" was first (independently) developed by a number of religious thinkers, in Egypt, China and the Middle East, and also some other places.


I believe the golden rule to be an evolutionary idea, but you may as usual believe it to be a religious thought.

Re: Infidels must be killed

PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:33 am
by Chiclets
Fernando wrote:
Chiclets wrote:Beliefs are fair game, ridiculous beliefs exist to be destroyed, not individuals, we need to treat them as fellow human beings, just follow the golden rule.
Can one always make that distinction, though? A child brought up in a conservative Muslim home and madrassa can be excused for holding vicious religious views, because he was brainwashed. But can we excuse him if he turns to vicious actions? And what about someone converting to Islam, who hasn't the excuse of upbringing, and taking on these vicious views? (As seems to be the case, complete with actions, with significant numbers of terrorists.)


An indoctrinated/brainwashed person as you put it is first and foremost a victim himself/herself. This is why the forum is here in the first place to debate and prove their ideas are bullsh!t and not worthy of any respect in this day and age.

I just woke up to pee, I am going back to bed and will get back to you and Manny later.

Re: Infidels must be killed

PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:44 am
by manfred
Chiclets wrote:
manfred wrote:Ah, so that means, chiclet, that religion is not a COMPLETE crock of garbage then, as this idea of the "golden rule" was first (independently) developed by a number of religious thinkers, in Egypt, China and the Middle East, and also some other places.


I believe the golden rule to be an evolutionary idea, but you may as usual believe it to be a religious thought.


I merely pointed out that almost all who put this idea forward in the first instance were in fact religious people of one kind or another, and to many of them the golden rule is linked to religion.

Re: Infidels must be killed

PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:41 pm
by skynightblaze
Chiclets wrote:
Fernando wrote:
Chiclets wrote:Beliefs are fair game, ridiculous beliefs exist to be destroyed, not individuals, we need to treat them as fellow human beings, just follow the golden rule.
Can one always make that distinction, though? A child brought up in a conservative Muslim home and madrassa can be excused for holding vicious religious views, because he was brainwashed. But can we excuse him if he turns to vicious actions? And what about someone converting to Islam, who hasn't the excuse of upbringing, and taking on these vicious views? (As seems to be the case, complete with actions, with significant numbers of terrorists.)


An indoctrinated/brainwashed person as you put it is first and foremost a victim himself/herself. This is why the forum is here in the first place to debate and prove their ideas are bullsh!t and not worthy of any respect in this day and age.

I just woke up to pee, I am going back to bed and will get back to you and Manny later.


I think Fernando too has a point. There are some who are beyond a point of debate e.g terrorists. We cannot respect such people and if you say he is a victim of a system then why not others who murder, rape and do all sorts of crimes? They too can claim that they were victims of upbringing. Should the law treat such people with respect instead of punishing them? Ofcourse not! However you are not completely wrong either. I think we need to adopt a different approach based on the case of individual under discussion. People who are willing to debate and intend no harm will be respected even if they are ignorant or refuse to accept they are wrong (because we can understand that suddenly discarding what you believed from childhood is not a simple task). However those who tell me that I should be killed for my disbelief will never earn my respect.