Quran vs Bible

[sturncoat]

Wittyboy,

You have highlighted many different concepts.But I insists on basics first,before we get to mercy etc I thought we start from creation
The reason many people object to Islam like those in this forum, is because it goes against universally accepted human philosophy.



At no time should God's reasoning be superseded by human thinking.





1.Perfection and Creation.
Human thinking dictates that assuming God exists then He is perfect.
A perfect being cannot have needs or wants including worship ,love etc.


Now look at the quran ,and it says:


"I have only created jinns and humans to worship Me.
I do not need from them to provide for Me, and I do not need from them to feed Me.
Allah is surely the One Who gives providence, and He is the Mighty and Strong."
The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 51, Verses 56-58


Clearly this portrays Allah(SWT) as a narcist and deficient!This fortifies the beliefs of many especially on this forum.

The God of the bible doesn't need man or angelic worship.
The Father loves The Son and vice versa.So They exist in love.

On the issue of the worship.The Father plans an action.This action is executed by The Son e.g The death here on earth to save us.The Son upon completion brings glory to The Father,in turn The Son is glorified.

The only way to escape the perfection/creation is concluding that God created us to Love.John3:16 suffices.

Love requires giving.
Unless now or the future we will get share divinity with God this paradox will not have been solved.
The easiest way to begin sharing His divinity was to Plant himself like a seed.
Now a seed has to be separated from the fruit to be planted on to the ground to produce more fruits.This is not easy.This analogy can be used to describe the tribulations of Jesus Christ(God The Son in flesh).



Now only the God of the Bible can demand,He's worshipped because He saved mankind from looming destruction.Now He can demand our souls for He gave His soul as a ransom.


New International Version (©1984)
just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."matt20:28
We would have been caught like Al Shaytan in a trap of iniquity.Why incarnation?Only God could solve mankind's problem ,but only man could pay the price.

[WittyBoy]

* Did you read the story of the prodigal son? What did you think it was about?

The same as all christian ideas, emotional but illogical stories. Yes, the father was very merciful, but it shouldn't be to the extent to treat the sinner better than the righteous who spent his life obeying him, the father would be merciful too if he only forgave him and treated him the same as the righteous, but to be unjust,...

Wittyboy as you read that story please compare and contrast how Allah instructs a Muslim to react when someone becomes an apostate with how God asks Christians to act.

God asks Christians to kill the apostate too

Deuteronomy 13

9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

BTW, there's no any verse in NT abrogated this law.

You can't simply put on a dirty cloak and pretend it is clean and nor will God. God is actually in reality not willing to accept evil. You are evil (as am I) and you won't be good enough for heaven. So unless we are made clean by God then we will not be acceptable to God. Jesus is quite essential to your salvation.

Yes, we can't be good without the help of God, but God can make us clean by simply forgiving us, this is what actually mentioned in Bible, let me quote that again:

Ezekiel 18
21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live.

That's very enough, this can be a logical idea, the most merciful forgives sins like if they weren't done.

Do you understand that God being merciful simply isn't enough because if God accepts good and evil what does that mean about God?

God doesn't agree with good and evil the same way, but God gave you a free will to be responsible for your deeds whatever they are, and when you do something wrong, and you repented to him, His mercy embraces you and He forgives you just because you repented to him.

[Wootah]

The same as all christian ideas, emotional but illogical stories. Yes, the father was very merciful, but it shouldn't be to the extent to treat the sinner better than the righteous who spent his life obeying him, the father would be merciful too if he only forgave him and treated him the same as the righteous, but to be unjust,...

I am glad you could connect with the story. Try to remember it because it is exactly how God will treat you when you come to know him. Can you see in your reply where the violence in Islam comes from? You identify with the second son and expect a reward that you do not receive in this life or the next. That is why you are killing Christians in Pakistan now.

God asks Christians to kill the apostate too

Deuteronomy 13

9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

Yes but do you wish to be judged according to that standard or wish to be forgiven for your sins? God's law is good, I will never say it isn't. But we live now by God's mercy and so God asks us to show mercy on others.

Yes, we can't be good without the help of God, but God can make us clean by simply forgiving us, this is what actually mentioned in Bible, let me quote that again:

Imagine if a judge forgave a criminal and let them free. You would say that judge is not just. Mercy freely given is unjust.

Ezekiel 18 is correct. But I assure you none are good enough to meet that mark. Are you saying you are good enough to earn your way into heaven or not? Is wittyboy saved by his own very good nature and very good actions or by God's mercy?

God doesn't agree with good and evil the same way, but God gave you a free will to be responsible for your deeds whatever they are, and when you do something wrong, and you repented to him, His mercy embraces you and He forgives you just because you repented to him.

I think you are talking about Allah here. Again focus on the issue: Imagine if a judge forgave a criminal and let them free. You would say that judge is not just. Mercy freely given is unjust.

[WittyBoy]

I am glad you could connect with the story. Try to remember it because it is exactly how God will treat you when you come to know him.

Do you mean God in Christianity, No, God in Islam more merciful and more just. You can't invite people to your religion using these dramatic stories, why don't you affect the brains not hearts?

Can you see in your reply where the violence in Islam comes from? You identify with the second son and expect a reward that you do not receive in this life or the next. That is why you are killing Christians in Pakistan now.

!!!!
Where's the relation between the two situations?! the second son did his best all his life, and then he was oppressed by his just father, what is the merit in this situation?!

God asks Christians to kill the apostate too

Deuteronomy 13

9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

Yes but do you wish to be judged according to that standard or wish to be forgiven for your sins? God's law is good, I will never say it isn't. But we live now by God's mercy and so God asks us to show mercy on others.

If you want to change it to the mercy on others, that's OK, but you can't include forgiving the apostates under this meaning, you would violate the Bible teachings then.

Yes, we can't be good without the help of God, but God can make us clean by simply forgiving us, this is what actually mentioned in Bible, let me quote that again:

Imagine if a judge forgave a criminal and let them free. You would say that judge is not just. Mercy freely given is unjust.

The situation is very different, it doesn't a personal matter between the judge and the criminal to forgive him, he can't forgive things which don't belong to him at all, the judge takes the right of another persons, so he doesn't have the right to forgive him, but Allah has this right to forgive people because He is which they disobeyed.

Ezekiel 18 is correct. But I assure you none are good enough to meet that mark.

But Allah is merciful enough to give me that mark.

Are you saying you are good enough to earn your way into heaven or not? Is wittyboy saved by his own very good nature and very good actions or by God's mercy?

By God's mercy which doesn't need killing innocent people like Jesus, Allah more merciful than this.

You all claim that Muslims are brainwashed, but you can see how Islam refutes these emotional but illogical christian thoughts by logic.

[sturncoat]

WittyBoy,

Seeing you have not shed light into any of questions ,let me digress into your dialogue with Wootah on Justice,Mercy and Grace.

The parable of the prodigal son teaches something greater than mercy and that is grace.
The prodigal son had requested he be made a servant but instead the father chose to retain him as a son and to throw a bash for him.


[background=]This is exactly what would be demanded of Allah(SWT)
From Al Fatiha[1:1] In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious (Rahman), Most Merciful (Rahim).[/background]


When Al Qiyamah comes :Humanity will expect grace.



Grace of God is new testament lexicon.The writer(s) of the Quran copied from the new testament inorder to propagate their message to the christians then ,little did they understand the implications of the word.


Your questions based on Deuteronomy and Ezekiel are simple.You again realise the Grace of God is not mentioned in the Tanakh.

[Wootah]

Do you mean God in Christianity, No, God in Islam more merciful and more just. You can't invite people to your religion using these dramatic stories, why don't you affect the brains not hearts?

Your heart needs some affecting WIttyboy. Your head too but why have all the intelligence in the world if you cannot love?

!!!!
Where's the relation between the two situations?! the second son did his best all his life, and then he was oppressed by his just father, what is the merit in this situation?!

God loves us all and rejoices when a sinner comes back to him.

If you want to change it to the mercy on others, that's OK, but you can't include forgiving the apostates under this meaning, you would violate the Bible teachings then.

Don't you find it puzzling that you are arguing that your God is more merciful and then saying you can't forgive apostates? Do you at least admit that that is puzzling?

The situation is very different, it doesn't a personal matter between the judge and the criminal to forgive him, he can't forgive things which don't belong to him at all, the judge takes the right of another persons, so he doesn't have the right to forgive him, but Allah has this right to forgive people because He is which they disobeyed.

But then you have to explain why Allah forgives some and not others. It seems awfully arbitrary.

Ezekiel 18 is correct. But I assure you none are good enough to meet that mark.

But Allah is merciful enough to give me that mark.

So can you clear up for me.
- Does Wittyboy think his good deeds earn his way into heaven or does Allah's mercy allow you into heaven.
- Why doesn't Allah be just and show mercy to everyone? Mercy and justice are contradictions your belief system faces, one can be just and not merciful or merciful and not just. One cannot be both. The only solution to the dilemma seems to be God's response to humanity through Jesus.

By God's mercy which doesn't need killing innocent people like Jesus, Allah more merciful than this.

You all claim that Muslims are brainwashed, but you can see how Islam refutes these emotional but illogical christian thoughts by logic.

The prodigal son parable is just one of many and I mean many verses that are designed to speak to your heart. It is interesting that you can see this and so claim logic in your defence of Islam. But it might be good for you to wonder why a corrupt book has more love in it and speaks to your heart so easily.
I like this parable because it teaches me that no matter what I have done God loves me and wants me to return to him. It is such a stark contrast and directly contradicts how Allah wants you to treat apostates - Do you think the parable of the prodigal son is a corrupted part of the bible?

It's good that you use logic. Let's find out!!

You appear to be fond of claiming that Allah is merciful and we both know that in Islam you believe life if a test. Is it merciful that Allah seal's peoples hearts, essentially denying people of any chance of passing the test and learning about Allah?