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Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:44 pm
by paarsurrey
Hi friends

I think generally the Jews and the Muslims agree that YHWH and Allah is the same Creator-God Allah YHWH. Since Jesus was never a Christian himself; he was a Jew; so he won't dislike being a Servant of Allah.

You know this is mentioned in Quran; and Allah is a witness to it; He alone is sufficient as a witness:

[4:173] Surely, the Messiah will never disdain to be a servant of Allah, nor will the angels near unto God; and whoso disdains to worship Him and feels proud, He will gather them all to Himself.
[4:174] Then as for those who believed and did good works, He will give them their rewards in full and will give them more out of His bounty; but as for those who disdained and were proud, He will punish them with a painful punishment. And they shall find for themselves beside Allah no friend nor helper.
http://www.*you_got_to_be_kidding*/quran/search2/sh ... &verse=172" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quran mentions a number of attributes of the Creator-God Allah YHWH; that would define in detail the person of God Allah YHWH. One who likes to compare the true concept should compare the attributes.

It is obvious that Muslims and Jews don't believe in the Trinity which was later invented by Paul and/or Church; it had nothing to do with Jesus. Trinity is a mistake of the Catholics and Protestants; better relinquish it as soon as possible to the pleasure of Jesus. However, there is no compulsion; one should do it as a free will when convinced.

I love Jesus and Mary a mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:01 pm
by crazymonkie_
paarsurrey wrote:Hi friends

I think generally the Jews and the Muslims agree that YHWH and Allah is the same Creator-God Allah YHWH. Since Jesus was never a Christian himself; he was a Jew; so he won't dislike being a Servant of Allah.
I think he'd dislike it plenty, considering that Allah was the redefining of a pagan god into a monotheistic god by an Arab about 600 years after he died.

No, Allah and the god of the Jews is NOT the same. The re-telling (and changing) of the stories of the Torah in the Quran was a weak attempt by Mohammad to gain legitimacy for his pagan-derived monotheism.
You know this is mentioned in Quran; and Allah is a witness to it; He alone is sufficient as a witness:
Don't quote from something whose infallible status has not been assured. Quoting from something that is under question or review is utterly pointless.
Quran mentions a number of attributes of the Creator-God Allah YHWH; that would define in detail the person of God Allah YHWH. One who likes to compare the true concept should compare the attributes.
One of those is "all-powerful." Meaning he could have come to earth in human form.
It is obvious that Muslims and Jews don't believe in the Trinity which was later invented by Paul and/or Church;
I know this is a favorite assertion of Muslims, and it's going to be a waste of both our time, but do you have any actual EVIDENCE for this?
it had nothing to do with Jesus. Trinity is a mistake of the Catholics and Protestants; better relinquish it as soon as possible to the pleasure of Jesus. However, there is no compulsion; one should do it as a free will when convinced.
A few points:

-It wasn't only the Catholics and Protestants who kept to the idea of the Trinity
-If Jesus was just a man, who gives a crap about his 'pleasure?'
-If he was more than a man (and the virgin birth makes it clear that he was) then what is he, and why was he so special
-Your "no compulsion" point has been debunked. Drop it.

Of course, if Jesus was even the Messiah, Mohammad's entire mission is moot- and a lie. His "seal of the prophets" schtick is nonsense if the final message was already sent in the form of Jesus.
I love Jesus and Mary a mentioned in Quran.
Nah, you just love the Quran and your sects oddball interpretation of it.

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:14 pm
by paarsurrey
crazymonkie_ wrote: -It wasn't only the Catholics and Protestants who kept to the idea of the Trinity
Hi friends

If there are other denominations, then please add them up.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:17 pm
by crazymonkie_
The bajillion Orthodox groups, and the no longer extant pre-Nicene groups.

How about you do the research instead of being lazy and asking others to do it for you?

And how about you answer the other points as well, especially the part about how Paul supposedly invented the Trinity. Where is your proof?

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:20 pm
by paarsurrey
crazymonkie_ wrote: -If Jesus was just a man, who gives a crap about his 'pleasure?'
Hi friend

Jesus was not just a man; he was the Messenger Prophet of the Creator-God Allah YHWH.

Only the Atheists Agnostics would think in those terms.They could believe otherwise; no compulsion. The Catholics and Protestant do value his pleasure.

By the way which denominations of the Catholics Protestants you belong to or you belonged to? That would be important for a meaningful discussion.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:26 pm
by crazymonkie_
Besides the Bible- which you believe is corrupted because it doesn't agree with your later book- and the Quran, where is the evidence that Jesus was more than a man? If such a remarkable person existed, you would figure there would be more than a passing mention of his followers (and perhaps one mention of him- which itself may have come from the source of his followers) decades later. If, as the Bible claims, he was often surrounded by a 'vast multitude', there would have at least been some records about it.

But no, nothing.

So tell me: Why, if he was so special, was Jesus essentially forgotten, except in a few religious texts that later became incredibly important when the religion they espoused became the official religion of the Roman Empire?

I asked YOU, as a Muslim, why his pleasure matters. He's a man. Only god judges, and it's never been clear whether or not the dead watch the living. Why should it matter?

And why should you bring the Christians into it? I thought they were just wrong. Why should it matter to you what someone's incorrect theology is?

About denominations: None of your business. Reply to my arguments, not my character. We've been over this, remember? Stop the baloney and delaying tactics.

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:46 pm
by manfred
Oh give me strength, I think this is the fifth time I explain "trinity" here... not your fault parrsurrey, so here we go...

ok parrsurrey,

your parents, what are you to THEM? A son/daughter?
And your bank manager, how does he see you? A customer?
Your boss sees you as an employee?
Your friend at the mosque, a good Muslim?

So, clearly you are ALL of these things, right? How many of you are there? One?

Hang on a minute, if you can be these 4 things at the same time, and yet there is ony one of you, how come God cannot be seen in more than one way?

The teaching of the trinity was not any mistake by the church. It is a way of making sense of the biblical message. It is a very concise way of describing how the ONE God has revealed himself to man in history. God as the father, setting bounderies for us, getting upset with us, but, like all fathers, always forgiving in the end. Then God the "son" (no, God did NOT HAVE a son, he WAS the son), God so showing his love to us that he made himself small to walk amongst us and be one of us, and finally even to die for us. As God the son the same God demonstates to us is perfect, unconditional love and care; he sends an invitation, and all we need to do is to say "yes" with all of our heart.

Finally, the third mode in which we have learnt of God is called "Holy spirit" (no the third part of trinity is not Mary, as the quran says, and it never was...) This is the easiest one to explain: God as He is with us today, the God who answers our prayers.

This, in very simple terms, is what Christian mean when say say "trinity". No "three faced God", nor three Gods, no any sort of "god family", just that simple idea I tried to explain. I hope that cleared that up...

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:51 pm
by Centaur
oops desperate herectic muslim passed away spamming. may be to save the arse of his beloved paedophile-rapist-20% profit

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:54 pm
by paarsurrey
manfred wrote:I explain "trinity" here... not your fault parrsurrey, so here we go...
Hi friend manfred

I thank you for explaining the Paul's or Church's concept of Trinity; but Jesus was a Jew; he did not give this concept to humanity himself. This is clever Paul's doing and the doing of the sinful scribes; it has nothing to do with Jesus.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:58 pm
by crazymonkie_
Where is your evidence, paar?

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:42 pm
by manfred
paarsurrey wrote:
manfred wrote:I explain "trinity" here... not your fault parrsurrey, so here we go...
Hi friend manfred

I thank you for explaining the Paul's or Church's concept of Trinity; but Jesus was a Jew; he did not give this concept to humanity himself. This is clever Paul's doing and the doing of the sinful scribes; it has nothing to do with Jesus.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
No, Jesus did not use that term, as far as we know. Yes, we know that Jesus was a Jew. To Christians he was infinitely more than just a Jew.

Tell me, why is Paul a "sinful scribe"? Paul travelled with and helped the writers of one of the gospel texts, Luke. There is nothing Pauls says that is not borne out by the gospel texts themselves. In fact, Paul's writings pre-date the gospel texts, so they are the earliest Christian theological writings, and at least Luke would have been influenced by Paul, most likely Mark and Matthew as well. Nor are Pauls writings written in isolation; the acts of the apostles, a text provided by Luke, put them in the context of Paul's actions, at the heart of the development of the early Christian Church. So the injil, the gospel texts that the quran endorses are products of the beliefs of the very early Christians, and Paul has had influence on the writers, so you cannot simply dismiss Paul like that. There is of course another, more basic logical fallacy in that kind of arguement: Let us suppose, just for a second, that your completely false accusation against Paul has some truth it it: how does AFFECT anything HE SAYS? If a murderer says that killing is wrong, then this is proof that killing is ok?

The fact is, the central message, as contained in the gospels as well as in Paul's letters, is completely at odds with Mohammed's claims. The very gospel the quran endorses clearly says that Mohammed's or any other such claim must be false.

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:45 am
by Marie
paarsurrey wrote:
manfred wrote:I explain "trinity" here... not your fault parrsurrey, so here we go...
Hi friend manfred

I thank you for explaining the Paul's or Church's concept of Trinity; but Jesus was a Jew; he did not give this concept to humanity himself. This is clever Paul's doing and the doing of the sinful scribes; it has nothing to do with Jesus.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
Matthew 28:16-20

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:21 am
by piscohot
paarsurrey wrote:I love Jesus and Mary a mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
so you love Mary, the sister of Aaron?

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:25 pm
by paarsurrey
Marie wrote: Matthew 28:16-20

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Hi friend Marie

1. Did Jesus himself write the above sentences?
2. Did Jesus memorize the above sentences himself and told his followers to memorize them also?
3. Did Jesus dictate the above sentences to Matthew to publish them on Jesus’ behalf?
4. Did Jesus authorize Matthew to write for Jesus whatever Matthew wanted to write?

Please make us wise on the above.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:38 pm
by Centaur
mathew made it up,by the way by starting wrong threads in wrong forum, are you trying to save pardophile-mohammeds arse?

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:38 pm
by Mr Preet
Centaur wrote:mathew made it up,by the way by starting wrong threads in wrong forum, are you trying to save pardophile-mohammeds arse?
I noticed this too! He's trying to get everyone's attention turned away from Islam!

Mod, move these threads to the appropriate fora :D

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:50 pm
by Marie
paarsurrey wrote:
Marie wrote: Matthew 28:16-20

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Hi friend Marie

1. Did Jesus himself write the above sentences?
2. Did Jesus memorize the above sentences himself and told his followers to memorize them also?
3. Did Jesus dictate the above sentences to Matthew to publish them on Jesus’ behalf?
4. Did Jesus authorize Matthew to write for Jesus whatever Matthew wanted to write?

Please make us wise on the above.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
Jesus told the apostles of the trinity and the apostles evangelized to the nations that Jesus is the father, the son, and the holy spirit. They taught other evangelists about Jesus and they recorded Jesus's teachings into the Gospels.

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:28 pm
by Bob
Hello parrsurrey,

Can you please explain to us why the Koran states:
And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?

This surely is the Trinity according to the Koran, namely, Jesus, God and Mary. However for Christians, the Trinity is the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost and NOT Mary who is not considered to be divine.

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:51 am
by Marie
Bob wrote:Hello parrsurrey,

Can you please explain to us why the Koran states:
And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?

This surely is the Trinity according to the Koran, namely, Jesus, God and Mary. However for Christians, the Trinity is the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost and NOT Mary who is not considered to be divine.
There were many heretical Christian sects in Arabia, one of them worshipped Mary as a goddess.

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:46 am
by paarsurrey
Marie wrote:
Bob wrote:Hello parrsurrey,

Can you please explain to us why the Koran states:
And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?

This surely is the Trinity according to the Koran, namely, Jesus, God and Mary. However for Christians, the Trinity is the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost and NOT Mary who is not considered to be divine.
There were many heretical Christian sects in Arabia, one of them worshipped Mary as a goddess.
Hi friends

Marie is right. Only Pual did not care about Mary the mother of Jesus. After his madeup vision Paul did not and could not face Mary and he did not meet her. It was late after Paul's death that slowly the status of Mary was acknowledged. As Marie has rightly told that Mary was later exaggerated by some denominaions and worshipped by some sect of the Christians.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned by Quran.

Thanks