Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

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Fence_Sitting
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Fence_Sitting »

crazymonkie_ wrote:Why would god talk to angels and say that man would be made in the angels' image? That makes no sense. Humans aren't sexless beings with 4-6 wings and incapable of doing evil. Obviously this is talking about god saying that men will be in god's image. But... it's still in the plural. Huh. Weird.
Angels and G-d are somewhat humanoid beings, traditionally at least. The angels actually have varying appearances, thus leading to the conclusion by scholars more knowledgeable than I that angels do not have a set shape. In Genesis they appear as normal travelers to Abraham, in Daniel they are many-faced and many-winged creatures, in Exodus the angel appears in the burning bush. In spite of this, there is always a humanoid aspect to their appearance.

I suppose the Biblical response to that would be the Adam and Eve and that pesky apple story, that originally humans were incapable of sinning. Then they ate the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge and were cast out of Eden, etc. If you think about it, humans wouldn't be in the exact image of G-d anyway, because humans are not omnipotent as G-d is supposed to be.

How I've been taught it in Hebrew School was that G-d didn't mean "let's make them EXACTLY like us in every single way," but "let's make them just enough like us so that they can rule in the physical world over the animals and such."
שלום עליכם

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Trojan
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Trojan »

paarsurrey wrote:Hi friends

blah blah blah ......We only discuss to reach to the truth.
paarsurrey,
I don't believe you actually meatn that. You only discuss to preach your Ahmedi cult here.
I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
Do you know without the Bible your Isa and Marium of the koran are merely spectres. One can never get a clear picture of any biblical character without help from "corrupted" scriptures. Ironic isn't it that allah's final word is incomplete.

"Muslims are the first victims of Islam, to liberate them from this religion is the best service that one can render them..."
Ernest Renan (1823-1892)

paarsurrey
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by paarsurrey »

Hi friends

Let us remain focussed on the topic.

Neither Jesus ever talked about trinity nor any of the Messengers Prpophetts of the Crator -God Allah YHWH mentioned Trinity. It is clever Paul and the sinful Church who add words into the ears of the Catholics and Protestands from without the BiBle that they in their fanciful thiking that trinity is mentioned in the Bible.

If Jesus knew that the Jews would unwillingly or willingly cause him to die on the Cross; why did Jesus not mention the Trinity in a straighforward manner?

John 17: 3

1 These things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said: Father, the hour is come, glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee. 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he may give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50017.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

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yeezevee
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by yeezevee »

paarsurrey writes
Hi friends

Let us remain focussed on the topic.

Neither Jesus ever talked about trinity nor any of the Messengers Prpophetts of the Crator -God Allah YHWH mentioned Trinity. It is clever Paul and the sinful Church who add words into the ears of the Catholics and Protestands from without the BiBle that they in their fanciful thiking that trinity is mentioned in the Bible.

If Jesus knew that the Jews would unwillingly or willingly cause him to die on the Cross; why did Jesus not mention the Trinity in a straighforward manner?
we are focused on the topic dear paarsurrey., You are the one who is drifting dear paarsurrey.,

you have a problem of writing words . see those words Prpophetts...Crator .. Protestands Forget Paul..& believe Christ being NOT son of God ..Nor God but a Prophet to Humanity . NO ONE WILL KILL YOU AND NO ONE WILL PERSECUTE YOU., But if I explain people what Muhammad did during the last 13 years of his life and prove them that those actions are criminal and if you were around me then you & me will get in to trouble..

So don't worry about Paul and don't worry about Christ.. Whatever is the way you look Christ was a divine personality and Mr. Muhammad was a criminal character

yeezevee

sparky
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by sparky »

paarsurrey wrote:Hi friends

I think generally the Jews and the Muslims agree that YHWH and Allah is the same Creator-God Allah YHWH. Since Jesus was never a Christian himself; he was a Jew; so he won't dislike being a Servant of Allah.

You know this is mentioned in Quran; and Allah is a witness to it; He alone is sufficient as a witness:

[4:173] Surely, the Messiah will never disdain to be a servant of Allah, nor will the angels near unto God; and whoso disdains to worship Him and feels proud, He will gather them all to Himself.
[4:174] Then as for those who believed and did good works, He will give them their rewards in full and will give them more out of His bounty; but as for those who disdained and were proud, He will punish them with a painful punishment. And they shall find for themselves beside Allah no friend nor helper.
http://www.*you_got_to_be_kidding*/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=4&verse=172" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quran mentions a number of attributes of the Creator-God Allah YHWH; that would define in detail the person of God Allah YHWH. One who likes to compare the true concept should compare the attributes.

It is obvious that Muslims and Jews don't believe in the Trinity which was later invented by Paul and/or Church; it had nothing to do with Jesus. Trinity is a mistake of the Catholics and Protestants; better relinquish it as soon as possible to the pleasure of Jesus. However, there is no compulsion; one should do it as a free will when convinced.

I love Jesus and Mary a mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
But your passage above parallels what the bible itself teaches about the Messiah:
In the OT:
Isa 53:11
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant , will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
NASU

And the New
Phil 2:5-7
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
NASU

And this isn't the only passage that refers to the Messiah is it? Even just before it in 4:171:
YUSUFALI: O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

Jesus is 'Allah's Word' and 'a spirit proceeding from Him'. This is reinforced in 3:45:

YUSUFALI: Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;

Jesus is 'a Word from Allah'. Is there anyone else in the Quran who is described as Allah's Word?

YUSUFALI: While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him: "Allah doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a Word from Allah, and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a prophet,- of the (goodly) company of the righteous."

John the Baptist gives witness to that 'Word of Allah' who is 'righteous'.

Doesn't this all sound a bit like the first chapter of John's gospel?
John 1:1-8
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
NASU

It seems to me that 'Trinity' is a Quranic problem as much as it is a Christian one. This is compounded by the fact that all the Quranic descriptions of 'trinity' do not refer to the Christian trinity. Christians do not believe that Allah is 'one of three' but that he is three, and one.

I always think that the best picture of the trinity is not glasses of milk or the sun or whatever but marriage. Two becoming one. It is such a shame that muslims so strenously deny something that could so radically improve muslim marriages and that is actually reinforced in their own scriptures.

Cheers,
sparky

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Trojan
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Trojan »

paarsurrey wrote:Hi friends
Let us remain focussed on the topic.
OK paarsurrey, let's focus
Neither Jesus ever talked about trinity
Please dont be so ignorant, Read the NT in its entirety instead of spouting nonsense like this.....
Ofcourse the term "trinity" is not there, but the concept was definitely taught by Jesus himself...
Can you show us the term "tawhid" in the koran? I highly doubt it, yet the koran teaches the concept of the unity of allah, does it not?
Please read below with eyes wide open and you will find the concept of the Trinity in this verse. (Bolded for your convenience)
Mathew 28
The Great Commission
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Do you know of any prophet before Jesus ever said words like this? "All authority in heaven an earth has been given to me" Is not authority reserved for God alone? How dare Jesus, if merely a man say such words? Further more, how can Jesus if not divine, say that he was going to be with them even to the very end of age? Notice "they worshipped him" and he did not stop them from doing it. Where is Paul in this verse? Did Paul write the Gospel of Mathew too?
nor any of the Messengers Prpophetts of the Crator -God Allah YHWH mentioned Trinity.
Remember, forget terminology; it is the concept you should be looking for?
Here read this for starters
Isaiah 9:6
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [a]
Mighty God - Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace.
Think for a moment, who is this son who was to claim such divine titles and attributes?
Please read the three revelations of God;

Wonderful counselor - the title of holy spirit;
Mighty God Everlasting father- The father;
Prince of Peace, the Title of Jesus - the son.

And yet all these three were to be bestowed upon the one child who was to be born a human.
Can you figure out this verse? This had nothing to do with Paul who was born centuries later.
It is clever Paul and the sinful Church who add words into the ears of the Catholics and Protestands from without the BiBle that they in their fanciful thiking that trinity is mentioned in the Bible.
Wrong! it is the evil koran and con-man Mohammed who has put doubts in your minds.
If Jesus knew that the Jews would unwillingly or willingly cause him to die on the Cross; why did Jesus not mention the Trinity in a straighforward manner?
What difference would that have made? You are forgetting that the concept Jesus revealed was against the Jewish belief because like muslims the Jews could not bear to hear that a mere man was claiming to be God. Jesus infact did mention his divinity and was almost stonned.Please read:
John 8
54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your[m] God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple,[n] going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Being Human as well as divine, Jesus did not "use" his divinity to save himself, that would have defeated his whole mission. Please reserve your half baked theories for someone else.
John 17: 3
1 These things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said: Father, the hour is come, glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee. 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he may give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.
:lol: This is really precious... you bring the one verse that would bury your whole case. You take the verse out of context by highlighting the parts that suit you while you ignore the preceeding verses.
Now ask yourself these questions from the verses you produced:

1.Has God given Jesus the power over all flesh? Is that not blasphemy? Should not the power over all flesh be only reserved for God?
2.Which other propher other than Jesus ever say such words. " Glorify me" ....Is not glory reserved for God alone? Who in their right mind would attempt to share the Glory of God?
3." and now glorify me with the glory I had before the world was, with thee" .... Are you blind? Did you purpously ignore these words? What is that supposed to mean? Is not Jesus claiming existence with the father even before the begining of time?


I can't belive you are being willfully stupid by stripping the verse out of its context without even giving the rest some serious thought.

God has bestowed you with a brain, please use it.

"Muslims are the first victims of Islam, to liberate them from this religion is the best service that one can render them..."
Ernest Renan (1823-1892)

paarsurrey
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by paarsurrey »

Trojan wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:Hi friends
Let us remain focussed on the topic.

OK paarsurrey, let's focus
Neither Jesus ever talked about trinity
Please don’t be so ignorant, Read the NT in its entirety.
Hi friend Trojan and others

The NT is not a Book; it is a collection of Books which originally consisted of some 40 books out of which the sinful Church selected some books randomly; what we see presently bound and termed NT. So it is not a book, it has not a system of any sorts ,not a theme, not homogenous so that it is seen in entirety, not a single author which is a must for book, not written at the same time. It does not deserve to be seen in its entirety on any logical account. NT books were authored by anonymous writers, only named after the sinful scribes for convenience. If it has a claim on an issue, it does not give the reason; and if it has stated a reason it won’t have a claim; the claim and reason are supplied from the external, as it has no internal context, the context is supplied by the sinful Church usually externally. It can be best described to be a conglomerate of books, not a book, in my opinion.

Hope you understand?

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

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Nosubmission
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Nosubmission »

paarsurrey wrote:

The NT is not a Book; it is a collection of Books which originally consisted of some 40 books out of which the sinful Church selected some books randomly; what we see presently bound and termed NT. So it is not a book, it has not a system of any sorts ,not a theme, not homogenous so that it is seen in entirety, not a single author which is a must for book, not written at the same time. It does not deserve to be seen in its entirety on any logical account. NT books were authored by anonymous writers, only named after the sinful scribes for convenience. If it has a claim on an issue, it does not give the reason; and if it has stated a reason it won’t have a claim; the claim and reason are supplied from the external, as it has no internal context, the context is supplied by the sinful Church usually externally. It can be best described to be a conglomerate of books, not a book, in my opinion.

Hope you understand?
Hey, you defeated Ahmadiyya

Where is your evidence for all your assertions? Even your Allah seems ignorant of your claims as he did not mention them in his qur'an! Actually, your Allah was probably a bit drunk when he said that he had given Christians a scripture in Greek (Injil is the Arabic transliteration of the Greek word Evangelion) and asked them to judge by their Greek scripture (Surah 5:47)

Christianity is neither ashamed nor afraid of the fact that the New Testament consists of different books written by different authors. What is wrong with that? Your qur'an, on the other hand, claims that it came from one single author although one chapter lacks what the other states. For instance:

When we inspired in thy mother that which is inspired, Saying: Throw him into the ark, and throw it into the river, then the river shall throw it on to the bank, and there an enemy to Me and an enemy to him shall take him. And I endued thee with love from Me that thou mightest be trained according to My will. (Surah 20:38-39)

And We inspired the mother of Moses, saying: Suckle him and, when thou fearest for him, then cast him into the river and fear not nor grieve. Lo! We shall bring him back unto thee and shall make him (one) of Our messengers. (Surah 28:7)

If these two chapters had been devised by the same author, there would not be any discrepancy between them. The writer of Surah 20 insisted that Allah asked Moses' mother to put baby Moses into an ark and throw the ark into the river whereas the author of Surah 28 mistakenly presumed that Allah instructed Moses' mother to throw baby Moses into the river! Without an ark!!!!! LOL

Tell me how many hands wrote your qur'an before it was distorted by Omar and revised by Uthman? :)
paarsurrey wrote: I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
Which Mary is that? Moses and Aaron's sister? Oops, sorry I forget that your qur'an taught that Moses' sister Mary was the same Mary as Jesus' mother :D
Elohim has come, Allah has vanished

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Trojan
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Trojan »

paarsurrey wrote:
Trojan wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:Hi friends
Let us remain focussed on the topic.

OK paarsurrey, let's focus
Neither Jesus ever talked about trinity
Please don’t be so ignorant, Read the NT in its entirety.
Hi friend Trojan and others

The NT is not a Book;.............. blah blah blah

Hope you understand?

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
Are you really here to seek the truth like you said earlier, or merely to annoy us with your useless rhetorical mumbo jumbo?
No I don't understand.... and I don't care if you what you think of the NT. Did you even read my entire response?
I am not surprised though! Why did I even expect any coherent response from you? This is so typical of Muslim apologists. When they are cornered and have no way to rebut, they react by critisizing the source.
Here's a recap for you...
1. I asked you to consider concept rather than getting hung up on terminology.

2. I asked you if there was any mention of the Islamic concept of "tawheed" in the koran.

3. You said Jesus did not mention the trinity, to which I provided you with proof that He infact did reveal its concept.

4. You said there was no mention of the trinity in the OT to which I provided you evidence that the concept was found therein.

5. You asked why Jesus did not mention the trinity to save his own life, I explained that he did but not to save his own life.

6. Then ironically, to prove your point you bring a verse from the same source that you call corrupt, without even understanding its context, which actually points directly to the proof of Jesus claiming divinity.


You are digging yourself deeper and deeper in the grave of your own contradictions.

Cheers!

"Muslims are the first victims of Islam, to liberate them from this religion is the best service that one can render them..."
Ernest Renan (1823-1892)

paarsurrey
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by paarsurrey »

Hi friends

Trojan seems to be angree; in anger one cannot have a meaningful discussion, you would agree. We were all just having a friendly discussion for truth ; neither there is any fight nor a debate to win. If our friend/s wants to win; I declare him/them a winner without a discussion even; search for truth however has to continue when one is cool; and that is welcome.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

paarsurrey
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by paarsurrey »

I asked you to consider concept rather than getting hung up on terminology
Hi friends

My question is if the terminology of Trinity was not important for Jesus; why it became necessary for the clever Paul or to the sinful Church? Did innocent Jesus make a mistake; that clever Paul or the sinful scribe wanted to rectify? If it was a mistake of the innocent Jesus; then he was not a god to start with? If the innocent Jesus did not make a mistake; then it is the mistake of clever Paul and the siful Church to introduce this useless terminology that was never needed by the world.It is clever Paul and the sinful Church that is hung up on this terminology of Trinity; I am a lover of Jesus, I don't need this terminology, which Quran has outrightly and absolutely rejected.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

sparky
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by sparky »

paarsurrey wrote:
I asked you to consider concept rather than getting hung up on terminology
Hi friends

My question is if the terminology of Trinity was not important for Jesus; why it became necessary for the clever Paul or to the sinful Church? Did innocent Jesus make a mistake; that clever Paul or the sinful scribe wanted to rectify? If it was a mistake of the innocent Jesus; then he was not a god to start with? If the innocent Jesus did not make a mistake; then it is the mistake of clever Paul and the siful Church to introduce this useless terminology that was never needed by the world.It is clever Paul and the sinful Church that is hung up on this terminology of Trinity; I am a lover of Jesus, I don't need this terminology, which Quran has outrightly and absolutely rejected.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
Actually, no. It is you who is 'hung up on it'. The point for Christians is the concept that it attempts to capture. A concept that they believe is derived from scripture. So the question is whether it really described God as he reveals himself or not. Whether Jesus himself ever said the word 'Trinity' is completely irrelevant. If you are a 'lover of Jesus as mentioned in the Quran', then it is a question you need to answer also. What does it mean that Jesus is called 'Allah's word' and 'a spirit from Allah'? Is Allah's word eternal? Is it separable from Allah? Is Allah's spirit part of Allah? Is there any other human who is described in these terms? What does the term Messiah mean? Will Jesus judge the world? Why him and no-one else? What does it mean for Jesus to be called 'righteous'? Is there anyone else apart from Allah who is 'righteous'?

Now you tell me, if someone in your holy book is uniquely described as 'Allah's word' and 'a spirit from Allah' and 'righteous', what on earth is the relevance of Mohammed or your bloke? Allah's word is the one I would be most interested in.

The Christian doctrine of 'Trinity' is no more than an attempt to grapple with what Jesus seems to have said about himself. Many of the terms that were applied to him are also in the Quran. As a result, the question is relevant for you also.

Cheers,
sparky

paarsurrey
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by paarsurrey »

To sparky

Hi friend/s

I appreciate that you have mentioned following points in your post. These points require detailed discussion separately, in my opinion, to thrash them out for truth or in search of truth. It might be off-the-topic to discuss them all in this thread, in my opinion. If you may be interested, you may start a separate thread/s on any one of them or all of them, if you so like, so that we all may discuss them out:

1. Is Allah's word eternal? Is it separable from Allah?
2. Is Allah's spirit part of Allah? Is there any other human who is described in these terms?
3. What does the term Messiah mean? Will Jesus judge the world? What does it mean for Jesus to be called 'righteous'? Is there anyone else apart from Allah who is 'righteous'?
4. 'Allah's word' 'a spirit from Allah'
5. 'Righteous'

Hope, you don’t mind it.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

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sparky
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by sparky »

paarsurrey wrote:To sparky

Hi friend/s

I appreciate that you have mentioned following points in your post. These points require detailed discussion separately, in my opinion, to thrash them out for truth or in search of truth. It might be off-the-topic to discuss them all in this thread, in my opinion. If you may be interested, you may start a separate thread/s on any one of them or all of them, if you so like, so that we all may discuss them out:

1. Is Allah's word eternal? Is it separable from Allah?
2. Is Allah's spirit part of Allah? Is there any other human who is described in these terms?
3. What does the term Messiah mean? Will Jesus judge the world? What does it mean for Jesus to be called 'righteous'? Is there anyone else apart from Allah who is 'righteous'?
4. 'Allah's word' 'a spirit from Allah'
5. 'Righteous'

Hope, you don’t mind it.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
Sure. I only raise them here to demonstrate that the same kind of questions that led to the doctrine of the Trinity could be asked about the teaching in the Quran. I find it dishonest when muslims try to ridicule the concept of the Trinity in Christianity without addressing these issues from the Quran.

Cheers,
sparky

paarsurrey
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by paarsurrey »

Sure. I only raise them here to demonstrate that the same kind of questions that led to the doctrine of the Trinity could be asked about the teaching in the Quran. muslims try to ridicule the concept of the Trinity in Christianity without addressing these issues from the Quran.

Cheers,
sparky
Hi friend sparky

We are all waiting for you to start the thread/s, on your own free will.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

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Trojan
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Trojan »

paarsurrey wrote:Hi friends

Trojan seems to be angree; in anger one cannot have a meaningful discussion, you would agree. We were all just having a friendly discussion for truth ; neither there is any fight nor a debate to win. If our friend/s wants to win; I declare him/them a winner without a discussion even; search for truth however has to continue when one is cool; and that is welcome.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
paarsurrey.
What makes you think that I am angry? But it is dishonesty among Muslim apologetics, (and in your case Ahmedis) that is annoying. To be annoyed is far from being angry. Does one get angry at a pesky fly or mosquito that buzzes around one's ear? You have adopted the position of a pesky insect that stubornly buzzes around an issue and only needs to be swatted down. Why should I waste precious emotions on you?

You have not addressed a single issue I have brought up in the past so I had to bold it for your convenience....
Cheers!

"Muslims are the first victims of Islam, to liberate them from this religion is the best service that one can render them..."
Ernest Renan (1823-1892)

User avatar
Trojan
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:47 pm
Location: Inside the kaaba

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Trojan »

paarsurrey wrote:My question is if the terminology of Trinity was not important for Jesus; why it became necessary for the clever Paul or to the sinful Church?
Boy you Muslims really detest Paul without proper reasoning.... The term Trinity is absent from the bible. How did you make the assumption that it was Paul who coined the term?
Did innocent Jesus make a mistake; that clever Paul or the sinful scribe wanted to rectify? If it was a mistake of the innocent Jesus; then he was not a god to start with? If the innocent Jesus did not make a mistake; then it is the mistake of clever Paul and the siful Church to introduce this useless terminology that was never needed by the world.
Ironically the Islamic term "Tawheed" is equivalent to to the Christian term " Trinity", yet you are not willing to bring this up in discussion even once, and I have mentioned it repeatedly. This is what I call Islamic dishonesty...
Why do you think the Islamic world found it neccessary to coin a "useless" term "Tawheed" for the oness of allah?
It is clever Paul and the sinful Church that is hung up on this terminology of Trinity;
Paul had nothing to do with the term. He never mentioned it even once in any of his letters or epistles. Please go and educate yourself before you make a complete fool of yourself here.
I am a lover of Jesus, I don't need this terminology, which Quran has outrightly and absolutely rejected.
Do you think we actually care what terminology you think is neccessary or not? The lies in the koran is your burden to carry, not ours. It is apparent that the word of allah in koran is riddled with errors. It has no basis in fact, but is simply borrowed scriptures, myths, legends and lies, so why would anyones but foolish muslims trust anything a false prophet made up to further his political agenda?

Now are you going to deal with rest of the issues from my previous post, or are you going to be another evasive muslims who chases his own tail to create diversions in order to avoid issues that they have no answers for?

Cheers!

"Muslims are the first victims of Islam, to liberate them from this religion is the best service that one can render them..."
Ernest Renan (1823-1892)

paarsurrey
Posts: 812
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:12 pm

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by paarsurrey »

Hi friends

I don't like start bashing the cunning Paul. I love innocent Jesus and then I can't resist defending innocent Jesus from the mischief done by the cunning Paul by deviating from innocent Jesus' path. I sometimes use the cunning Paul as a representative of all mischievous doings (deviations) done by not only Paul but also subsequent deviations of the Church through ages. Jesus did not establish any "Church", it was Paul or/ and his followers who established Church in Jesus' name, very cleverly and without Jesus even knowing them. I sometimes tell my Christian friends ; why you go to a Church? Did Jesus ever go to a Church? Jesus was a Jew; whenever he went he went to a Jewish temple; as he was just a follower of the teachings of Moses with little changes.

I would always defend Jesus.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yeezevee
Posts: 6547
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by yeezevee »

I don't like start bashing the cunning Paul....
yes.. I too don't like to BASH CUNNING CONMAN and a criminal Pagan of Arabia Mr. Muhammad, who Ruined not only his forefathers... the Arabian pagans but Christians ..Jews and worse is the minds of fellows like you dear paarsurrey . But Muslim like you are relentless.. so there is no alternative for people like me except drill that Arabian sand out of your brain..

yeezevee

paarsurrey
Posts: 812
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:12 pm

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by paarsurrey »

Trojan wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:My question is if the terminology of Trinity was not important for Jesus; why it became necessary for the clever Paul or to the sinful Church?
paarsurrey wrote:
It is clever Paul and the sinful Church that is hung up on this terminology of Trinity;
Hi friend Trojan

Don't be so angry, please.

Jesus never believed in Trinity and he never spoke of the Trinity from his mouth. Jesus had nothing to do with it.

Paul and Church are responsible for it.

The Origin of the Trinity: From Paganism to Constantine- by Cher-El L. Hagensick

http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/d ... rinity.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I just quote some excerpts from it:

With this background, the growth and evolution of the Trinity can be clearly seen. As previously stated, the Bible does not mention the Trinity. Harnack affirms that the early church view of Jesus was as Messiah, and after his resurrection he was ‘raised to the right hand of God’ but not considered as God (1: 78). Bernard Lonergan, a Roman Catholic priest and Bible scholar, concurs that the educated Christians of the early centuries believed in a single, supreme God (119). As for the holy Spirit, McGiffert tells us that early Christians considered the holy Spirit ‘not as an individual being or person but simply as the divine power working in the world and particularly in the church’ (111). Durant summarizes early Christianity thus: ‘In Christ and Peter, Christianity was Jewish; in Paul it became half Greek; in Catholicism it became half Roman’ (Caesar 579).

Is this positive proof that the Trinity owes it origins to paganism and philosophy? The evidences of history leave little doubt. The concept of the Trinity finds its roots in Pagan theology and Greek philosophy: it is a stranger to the Jewish Jesus and the Hebrew people from which he sprang.

http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/d ... rinity.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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