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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:18 am
by Chiclets
That was a nice read thanks Emma :clap:

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:05 pm
by emma67
Chiclets wrote:That was a nice read thanks Emma :clap:

Well, thank you for acknowledging my modest contribution! It annoys me when Muslims automatically assume that the West is Christian. My family is Atheistic, they have never believed in any God and I have yet to meet a Muslim who can comprehend that yes it's possible not to believe in God and that 2, it doesn't automatically mean that Atheists are to be shot on sight. I don't like someone who tries to join me to his cause by calling me his 'friend' in order to attack others and eventually stab me in the back.

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:46 pm
by paarsurrey
Most Atheists and Agnostics used to be Christians?


Atheism flourished in Europe which was Christian; due to its mythical concepts, in my opinion. Please read the following lines:

Early modern period

The Renaissance and Reformation eras witnessed a resurgence in religious fervor, as evidenced by the proliferation of new religious orders, confraternities, and popular devotions in the Catholic world, and the appearance of increasingly austere Protestant sects such as the Calvinists. This era of interconfessional rivalry permitted an even wider scope of theological and philosophical speculation, much of which would later be used to advance a religiously skeptical world-view.
Criticism of Christianity became increasingly frequent in the 17th and 18th centuries, especially in France and England, where there appears to have been a religious malaise, according to contemporary sources. Some Protestant thinkers, such as Thomas Hobbes, espoused a materialist philosophy and skepticism toward supernatural occurrences, while the Jewish-Dutch philosopher Baruch Spinoza rejected divine providence in favour of a pantheistic naturalism. By the late 17th century, Deism came to be openly espoused by intellectuals such as John Toland. Despite their ridicule of Christianity, many Deists held atheism in scorn. The first known atheist who threw off the mantle of deism, bluntly denying the existence of gods, was Jean Meslier, a French priest who lived in the early 18th century.[89] He was followed by other openly atheistic thinkers, such as Baron d'Holbach and Jacques-André Naigeon.[90] The philosopher David Hume developed a skeptical epistemology grounded in empiricism, undermining the metaphysical basis of natural theology.


Ludwig Feuerbach's The Essence of Christianity (1841) would greatly influence philosophers such as Engels, Marx, David Strauss, and Nietzsche. He considered God to be a human invention and religious activities to be wish-fulfillment.
The French Revolution took atheism outside the salons and into the public sphere. Attempts to enforce the Civil Constitution of the Clergy led to anti-clerical violence and the expulsion of many clergy from France. The chaotic political events in revolutionary Paris eventually enabled the more radical Jacobins to seize power in 1793, ushering in the Reign of Terror. At its climax, the more militant atheists attempted to forcibly de-Christianize France, replacing religion with a Cult of Reason. These persecutions ended with the Thermidorian Reaction, but some of the secularizing measures of this period remained a permanent legacy of French politics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Ea ... enaissance

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Jesus was not Son of God: Usage of Old Testament

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:40 pm
by paarsurrey
Hi friends

The Christians say that Jesus was told in Torah and the Gospels as son of god hence he was son of God,
This is wrong and is against the usage of Torah and the Gospel as in them these words have not been used for Jesus exclusively but these words have been used hundreds of times for other men also, and the Christians don’t admit hem as sons of god. Jesus was mentioned a s son of god so it has been mentioned for others

Examples:

Exodus 4:22.
And thou shalt say to him: Thus saith the Lord: Israel is my son, my firstborn. Israel is my son, my firstborn.

Psalms 88:21-26
21 I have found David my servant: with my holy oil I have anointed him. 22 For my hand shall help him: and my arm shall strengthen him. 23 The enemy shall have no advantage over him: nor the son of iniquity have power to hurt him. 24 And I will cut down his enemies before his face; and them that hate him I will put to flight. 25 And my truth and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
26 And I will set his hand in the sea; and his right hand in the rivers. 27 He shall cry out to me: Thou art my father: my God, and the support of my salvation. 28 And I will make him my firstborn, high above the kings of the earth.

So, in the usage of Bible all righteous and loved – ones of God have been mentioned as son of god; nothing special for Jesus.

I think that the Atheists Agnostics would support our principled stance as mentioned above, out of their free will.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Jesus no liteal Son of God; OT does not support it

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:40 pm
by paarsurrey
Hi friends
I submit more to establish my view point that Jesus was not literally son of god:

Psalms 81:
1 A psalm for Asaph. God hath stood in the congregation of gods: and being in the midst of them he judgeth gods. 2 How long will you judge unjustly: and accept the persons of the wicked? 3 Judge for the needy and fatherless: do justice to the humble and the poor. 4 Rescue the poor; and deliver the needy out of the hand of the sinner. 5 They have not known nor understood: they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth shall be moved.
6 I have said: You are gods and all of you the sons of the most High. 7 But you like men shall die: and shall fall like one of the princes. 8 Arise, O God, judge thou the earth: for thou shalt inherit among all the nations.

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/21081.htm

So, the according to the usage of the Bible; the Clergy and the Priests are also the Son of God; nothing special for Jesus.

I think that our Atheists Agnostics would support our principled stance; out of their free will.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:38 pm
by obadiah
What other religions besides Catholic and Protestant believe in the Trinity? The Eastern Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, and all the other Churches derived from the Holy Apostles. :D

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:25 am
by John Monash
Fathom wrote:Teaching an understanding of the Trinity does not need to be so complex, for the concept is very easy to understand if explained properly. I am not a Christian, nor do I belong to any religion. However, I have spent decades in the study of ancient texts and religions.

Here is a very simple but effective way to understand the Trinity.

Let's take a big jug of milk, and pretend that it is God.

Now, place three equally sized cups on a table. Fill each cup with milk.

The 1st cup is the Father. The 2nd cup is the Son. The 3rd cup is the Holy Spirit.

You see 3 cups, but the same milk from the same jug is in the 3 cups.

Now, empty each cup back into the jug and answer the following question.

When looking at the milk in the jug, can you tell which part of that milk is the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit?


That is how you understand the Trinity.

Peace.


Hello Fathom, here's another very simple analogy using the holy Meccan maniac described by his three commonly accepted post-nominals:

(1) Muhammad the apostle:
(2) Muhammad the prophet:
(3) Muhammad the messenger


Question: How many Muhammads are there?

Which Muslim would dare say there are three Muhammads?

In the same vein, I have yet to notice a response from any Muslim explaining the difference between Allah and Allah's Spirit.
The Quran mentions both, yet Muslims can't distinguish between either. Are they two seperate beings, or are they two aspects of the same being?

If Allah and Allah's Spirit are essentially two aspects of the same identity, then Muslims are hypocritical when attacking the Trinity.

Conversely, If Allah and Allah's Spirit are distinctly seperate, thenthe Quran has effectively created a duality that is two-thirds of the Muslim-misunderstood Trinity. in which case, how is it possible for Muslims to attack the Christian Trinity while simultaneously accepting the Quranic duality of Allah and Allah's Spirit.

Cheers
JM

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:43 pm
by paarsurrey
obadiah wrote:What other religions besides Catholic and Protestant believe in the Trinity? The Eastern Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, and all the other Churches derived from the Holy Apostles. :D


Hi friends

Are there any Christians denomination that don't believe in Trinity; truly invented by Paul in Rome to appease the pagan kings? Jesus never spoke this word from his mouth.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

all Israelis are also the Sons of God; nothing special for J

PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:01 pm
by paarsurrey
Hi friends

I submit more to establish my view point that Jesus was not literally son of god:

Romans 9:
1 I speak the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost: 2 That I have great sadness, and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I wished myself to be an anathema from Christ, for my brethren, who are my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 Who are Israelites, to whom belongeth the adoption as of children, and the glory, and the testament, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises: 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all things, God blessed for ever. Amen.

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/52009.htm

So, according to the usage of the Bible; all Israelis are also the Sons of God; nothing special for Jesus.

I think that our Atheists Agnostics would support our principled stance; out of their own free will, if they had any; no compulsion though.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:15 pm
by paarsurrey
Hi friends

I submit more to establish my view point that Jesus was not literally son of god:
Psalms 67:6

5 Sing ye to God, sing a psalm to his name, make a way for him who ascendeth upon the west: the Lord is his name. Rejoice ye before him: but the wicked shall be troubled at his presence,
6 Who is the father of orphans, and the judge of widows. God in his holy place: 7 God who maketh men of one manner to dwell in a house: Who bringeth out them that were bound in strength; in like manner them that provoke, that dwell in sepulchres.

http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk= ... &l=6&f=s#x

So, according to the usage of the Bible; all orphans are Sons of God; nothing special for Jesus.

I think that our Atheists Agnostics would support our principled stance; out of their own free will, if they had any; no compulsion though.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:56 pm
by manfred
According to the bible we are ALL “children” of God, not God’s toys or objects for torture, as in the quran.

However, when the bible speaks of Jesus being the “son of God” or the “Son of Man”, a very different idea is expressed. This is what Jesus says about himself in the bible:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)


"The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. (John 10:10)


Now, let me see, who was that again saying he was a prophet, and yet stole, killed and destroyed?

And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. (John 6:35)


And most loudly:
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."(Revelation 1:8)

This single verse alone shows that, from a Christian perspective, Mohammed’s claims must be false, and you cannot accept them and still honour the message of Christ.

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:58 pm
by paarsurrey
Hi friends

If our Christian friends consider Jesus son of god only because it has been used in the NT for him; then we consider Jesus son of man as he has been described in the NT as son of man:

Matthew 1:1

1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham: 2 Abraham begot Isaac. And Isaac begot Jacob. And Jacob begot Judas and his brethren. 3 And Judas begot Phares and Zara of Thamar. And Phares begot Esron. And Esron begot Aram. 4 And Aram begot Aminadab. And Aminadab begot Naasson. And Naasson begot Salmon. 5 And Salmon begot Booz of Rahab. And Booz begot Obed of Ruth. And Obed begot Jesse.

6 And Jesse begot David the king. And David the king begot Solomon, of her that had been the wife of Urias. 7 And Solomon begot Roboam. And Roboam begot Abia. And Abia begot Asa. 8 And Asa begot Josaphat. And Josaphat begot Joram. And Joram begot Ozias. 9 And Ozias begot Joatham. And Joatham begot Achaz. And Achaz begot Ezechias. 10 And Ezechias begot Manasses. And Manasses begot Amon. And Amon begot Josias.

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47001.htm

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:34 pm
by manfred
paarsurrey wrote:
If our Christian friends consider Jesus son of god only because it has been used in the NT for him; then we consider Jesus son of man as he has been described in the NT as son of man....

[


So, you decide to take one idea expressed in the bible, but not this other; in fact both need to be seen together to understand what the texts mean.

Do you do the same with the quran, simply pick the parts you like, and ignore the others?

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:10 am
by paarsurrey
manfred wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:
If our Christian friends consider Jesus son of god only because it has been used in the NT for him; then we consider Jesus son of man as he has been described in the NT as son of man....

[


So, you decide to take one idea expressed in the bible, but not this other; in fact both need to be seen together to understand what the texts mean.

Do you do the same with the quran, simply pick the parts you like, and ignore the others?


Hi friend manfred

Please refer my post in the following thread which is relevant to your question:

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5065&p=83414#p83414

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:52 am
by crazymonkie_
Oh my... so you mean Jesus could have had too titles at the same time?!? Man, that just makes my brain just about explode. Wow. You've done it, paar. You've destroyed Christianity. Yup. All of it. Even the groups that weren't Trinitarian, or had a different kind of Trinity, like:

- Origen and his followers
- The Unitarians from the 14th century onward, until 1961
- Various Gnostic groups, including Valentinians and many, many others
- The Syrian Orthodox Church (still around)
- The Cops (I think... I could be way, way wrong about that)
- ANY Adoptionist group (lots of those, very few left)
- Certain proto-Orthodox theologians like Tertullian (especially his "wacky" later Apocalyptic years)
And many more.

Let me point out that some of these groups had a historically legitimate claim to their doctrines being co-equal in time to, if not earlier than, the much later Athanasian and Nicene doctrine of the Trinity. Your mullahs have lied to you- it was never "clever Paul and the Church scribes" who built up the standardized Trinity doctrine; that came far later and not without some seriously bloody conflicts.

But let me further point out that, although your religion has a telescoped version of doctrinal development (meaning it's much shorter than that of Christianity) it is no less a developing set of doctrines for it. That early Quran copies vary radically with one another well after the (probably apocryphal) stories of Umar's standardization of the Quran, perhaps sometime about halfway in the first hundred years after Muhammad's death- and that the 'traditions' in which we find things like how one must pray, what one does on Pilgrimage, etc. were compiled close to 200 years after Muhammad's death (which, considering how long it took for the Alexandrine copy to become "the" Quran)- you Muslims have no right to point out the evolution of Christian doctrine.

I guess what I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is: It's all a pile of crap, and I'm dead tired of you Christians and Muslims playing a huge game of capture-the-flag with the more ignorant or easily misled among us. You're all wrong, deal with it.

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:04 pm
by paarsurrey
crazymonkie_ wrote:Oh my... so you mean Jesus could have had too titles at the same time?!? Man, that just makes my brain just about explode. Wow. You've done it, paar. You've destroyed Christianity. Yup. All of it. Even the groups that weren't Trinitarian, or had a different kind of Trinity, like:

- Origen and his followers
- The Unitarians from the 14th century onward, until 1961
- Various Gnostic groups, including Valentinians and many, many others
- The Syrian Orthodox Church (still around)
- The Cops (I think... I could be way, way wrong about that)
- ANY Adoptionist group (lots of those, very few left)
- Certain proto-Orthodox theologians like Tertullian (especially his "wacky" later Apocalyptic years)
And many more.



Hi friend

I am not against Christ or the true Christians; I am with Jesus and Mary. In fact all the modern Christians 32000+ denominations of them follow the clever Paul and his mythology/theology and they use/abuse the name Chistianity; Jesus has got nothing to do with them.

The Atheist Agnostics has only one merit; they don't believe in the myths, and I respect them for this merit.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:00 am
by crazymonkie_
Paar,

Stop calling me your friend. I'm not your friend, you're not mine.

Another point: You totally skipped over my points. You're full of sh!t, and I already went into detail of the denominations. PAUL HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!!!!!!!

You don't love Jesus and Mary in the Quran or anywhere else.

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:16 pm
by paarsurrey
Hi friends

I only discuss things with the friends and it is always in a friendly manner. I don't say any bad words for any person, personally. Those who don't want to discuss with me; may not comment on my posts out of their own free will. I respect everybody here.We only discuss to reach to the truth.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:09 am
by Fence_Sitting
Elo-im is simply the word for G-d. It is singular.

It never governs the Hebrew for a plural verb. The Torah (Genesis 1:26) says, "ויאמר אלוהים" if the word Elo-im were to denote a plural being, the Hebrew would read, "ואמרו אלוהים." The former says, "va'yomER Elo-im" (and G-d said) the latter says, "ve'amROO elohim" (and the gods said).

Also, adjectives pertaining to Elo-im are singular. For instance:
Psalms 7:10, G-d is referred to as, "אלוהים צדיק," "Elo-im tzadik." It does not say, "אלוהים צדיקים," "elohim tzadiKIM."

The word elohim is used in plural form only when referring to pagan deities. The second commandment, for example, contains "אלהים אחרים" which has a plural adjective as well as the word elohim being plural.

The "make man in OUR image" refers to the Heavenly Council, which is comprised of angels. Before creating man, G-d spoke to his Council of Angels much as a king or queen would speak to their cabinet.

Hopefully that clears some things up in that department?

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:54 am
by crazymonkie_
Why would god talk to angels and say that man would be made in the angels' image? That makes no sense. Humans aren't sexless beings with 4-6 wings and incapable of doing evil. Obviously this is talking about god saying that men will be in god's image. But... it's still in the plural. Huh. Weird.

Oh, also, another thing:

GOD
GOD
GOD
GOD
GOD
GOD
GOD
GOD
GOD
GOD
GOD
GOD
GOD
GOD
GOD
GOD

Mwahahahaha