Let me explain something to you.manfred wrote: As to the idea that the bible is a polytheistic text, surely we all know that elohim is a majestic plural? (Like the English Queen saying "We are not amused"...)
What you are doing is trying to make a comparison of what is known to exist in one culture and language (English) in modern times, to ancient Hebrew. This is a fallacy known as presentism:
"Presentism is a mode of historical analysis in which present-day ideas and perspectives are anachronistically introduced into depictions or interpretations of the past. Historian David Hackett Fischer identifies presentism as a logical fallacy also known as the "fallacy of nunc pro tunc."
Until you can demonstrate that the ancient Hebrews themselves regarded it as a majestic plural, your argument will remain a fallacy.
None of that addresses my argument at all. My argument is in regards to what was written in the 1st Chapter of Genesis, not a paraphrase of what was written in the Book of Deuteronomy 6.4.manfred wrote:Surely this answers that:Deuteronomy 6:4 wrote:
שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד
shma, Ysroel, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Ehad
Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one.
ehad-wahad in arabic, means ONE.
Correction: they are the religious texts of the ancient Hebrews, who existed long before the culture of the Jews came into existence. You will not find a single mention of "Jew" anywhere in the Pentateuch.manfred wrote:The "Old Testament", the torah, the prophets and the other texts, are the religious texts of the Jews.
Again, "presentism." The texts existed long before anyone was ever considered a Jew. Also, if you had actually read my argument you would have noticed that I confined my suggestion of polytheism to only the 1st Chapter of Genesis, and not all the texts in general. Also again, if texts do not make a religion, how then can a religion develop and change as time goes on? Do you think that the ancient Hebrews, earliest Christians, and earliest Muslims were all practicing the exact same religious rites and traditions as modern day followers of those same religions? Do you think the followers of Jesus in his day celebrated Christmas?manfred wrote:To suggest that they are polytheistic texts is to say that either Judaeism is a polytheistic religion or Jews do not understand their own texts, the texts that was written in their midst and read in one specific way from the start to this very day. Texts do not make a religion, religions make texts. Judaeism is a montheistic religion, and it therefore can only produce montheistic texts.
The opposite is true. Religions develop from the texts. Without the texts, where is the religion? Could a Jew be a Jew without the Torah? Could a Christian be a Christian without any gospel in existence? Would a single Muslim exist without the Quran?
The texts come first, and the religions are then created afterwards.
What kind of Jew was Jesus? Was he a Sadducee? Pharisee? Essene? Since the gospel record demonstrates that he argued and fought with the Sadducee and Pharisee over doctrine so much that they conspired to have him killed, the chances are very great that he did not hold to their views at all. The Pharisee and Sadducee were the dominant sects of the Jewish population during the time of Jesus representing the vast majority of the Jewish population. Yet here we see Jesus constantly in confrontation with them over doctrine, interpretation, and beliefs.manfred wrote: Next, Jesus was a Jew. The chances that he somehow did not perceive God like all his people (as ONE) is not very likely; for a start he would not have managed to get any followers from the Jews.
Suffice to say Jesus absolutely did NOT perceive God like all his people for if he did we would not have Christianity today.
Yet, Paul never met Jesus. Paul also fought with many of the apostles who had actually walked with Jesus. Indeed, Paul was sent away by those apostles to the Gentiles, while those apostles- such as Peter and James- remained in Jerusalem. There were two sects of Christianity being developed immediately after the death of Jesus. The first sect was run by the original apostles in Jerusalem, with James as the head of it. This was the Jewish sect. The 2nd sect was organized by Paul, which spread its message out to the Greeks and Gentiles.manfred wrote: Next, St John's gospel in one of the latest canonical bible texts, one one of earliest ones. To see who the earliest Christian perceived Jesus, Paul is the best source, as are Peter's letters.
James was killed by the Jews in Jerusalem many years later, as reported in Flavius Josephus' 1st century book Antiquities of the Jews. Tradition teaches us that Paul died in Rome at the hands of Caesar Nero.
Therefore, Paul does not give us an accurate portrayal of how the earliest Christians perceived Jesus, for the earliest Christians were Jews, and not the gentiles whom Paul preached to, and himself became. Paul and the Gentiles were 2nd generation followers of Jesus, not 1st generation, which were the Jews.
If you want to learn about Jesus, then learn from Jesus himself, and not Paul, Peter, or any one else. Study his words and his religious philosophy from him only.
Whether or not Christians see themselves as polytheists is not relevant because you are trying to make a point based upon beliefs as opposed to facts. Again, the texts came first, and the religion later. If this were not true, then Judaism would exist without the Torah, Christianity would exist without the NT, and Islam would exist without the Quran.manfred wrote: Christians do not see themselves as polytheists, so it is not very likely that they would write religious texts endorsing that. Christianity is, in a sense, an off-shoot of Judaeism. To them, to, the same rule applies that the beliefs came first, the texts second.
The texts show the beliefs already in place, they did not create the beliefs.
Your argument is logically impossible.