Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Debate how Islam compares to other faiths and religions.
Brendalee
Posts: 1449
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:14 pm

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Brendalee »

Mujahid wrote:lol where is your proof for these names of Muhammed? they dont exist, yes there is 99 names of Alaah SWT. Your statement is full of ignorance with no factual basis.
They don't EXIST? :ohmy:

I guess you do not have any way to google things on your computer, poor fellow! Otherwise, you see, their existance could be proved by simply typing into the search bar : 99 names of Mohammad.

But wait, perhaps I am just being insensitive. It could be that you are just mortified and embarrassed at how so many of your fellow Muslims commit blatant shirk with their worship of Mohammad.

Then again, that was rather my point.

Oliver128
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:59 pm

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Oliver128 »

Fathom wrote:Teaching an understanding of the Trinity does not need to be so complex, for the concept is very easy to understand if explained properly. I am not a Christian, nor do I belong to any religion. However, I have spent decades in the study of ancient texts and religions.

Here is a very simple but effective way to understand the Trinity.

Let's take a big jug of milk, and pretend that it is God.

Now, place three equally sized cups on a table. Fill each cup with milk.

The 1st cup is the Father. The 2nd cup is the Son. The 3rd cup is the Holy Spirit.

You see 3 cups, but the same milk from the same jug is in the 3 cups.

Now, empty each cup back into the jug and answer the following question.

When looking at the milk in the jug, can you tell which part of that milk is the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit?


That is how you understand the Trinity.

Peace.
Hello Fathom – I see you are at it once again

I tend to agree with emma67 that your example doesn’t hold water – or was that milk? To be fair emma’s Time example likewise has limitations as Jesus is described as being ‘the same yesterday, today and forever’. We simply have to face the fact that our puny finite minds are incapable of ‘fathoming’ the nature of the triune God.

But taking that into account I should like to make a stab at giving an explanation. Consider this expression:

YHWH = [the Father] AND [the Son] AND [the Holy Spirit]

This is a Boolean expression wherein the three elements on the right hand side MUST all be TRUE for the element on the left hand side to be TRUE. In Boolean math TRUE is represented by the number 1 and FALSE by 0. So the expression could be re-written:

1 = [1] AND [1] AND [1]

Further explanation could be made; such as, the Essence, Nature and Substance of each of the right hand elements are of the same as the Essence, Nature and Substance of the left hand element. So that IF any one of the right hand elements were FALSE [0] or left out of the expression the left hand element would be rendered incomplete and thereby FALSE [0] as well. While not perfect, this expression maintains the individuality of each of the right hand elements as well as the composite-unity of the left hand element.

You have expressed some opinions regarding the use of the word ‘elohim’ in the Torah, in particular its use in the first chapter of Genesis – implying that its usage ‘there’ is a definite indication that the ancient Hebrew faith was polytheistic in nature. You then attempt to ‘prove’ your thesis by quoting Jesus who was quoting the Tanakh where ‘elohim’ is used to describe the status of some officials (judges) of Israel. In so doing you also made the outrageous claim that Jesus was also polytheistic. In point of fact you have merely exhibited your total lack of understanding of the word ‘elohim’ and its usage in the Tanakh. The most basic meaning of the word ‘elohim’ is powerful or powerful-one. While it is the plural form it is used throughout the Tanakh in reference to the ‘One God’, pagan gods, and people who have great authority or prominence, i.e. Abraham and the Judges mentioned above. It is even used once to describe the ‘powerful’ struggle that Rachel had with her sister Leah.

The bottom line is that ‘elohim’ is nothing but a generic term that can be used as a reference to the God, a god, any god or any person or persons that wield great authority or have great prominence. The word ‘theos’ in Koine Greek has much the same usage – a generic reference to the God, a god, any god or any person or persons that wield great authority or have great prominence – in point of fact the English word ‘god’ serves the identical purpose.

Jesus was NOT a polytheist – in Mark 12.29 Jesus quoted Deut 6.4, ‘Jesus answered, “The most important is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.”’ When Jesus told the ‘Jews’ that ‘I and the Father are ONE’ the ‘Jews’ explained their desire to stone Him was because ‘you being a man make yourself GOD’. While Jesus was fully aware of the deity of the Father He was also fully aware of His own deity. And seeing that Jesus was not a polytheist we must only conclude that the Father and the Son, while being separate personages, are in fact the ONE GOD.

Only Jesus is able to grant the PEACE that passes understanding – PEACE be with you.

elle
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:20 pm

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by elle »

Tcehnically, I am not sure if you could refer to the 99 adjectives as "Names" but rather as "terms of addressing/referring to Mohammed."

see: http://www.ezsoftech.com/islamic/infallible1f.asp

Brendalee
Posts: 1449
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:14 pm

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Brendalee »

What are names if they are not "terms of addressing/referring to" someone/something? Even the link you put up calls them names, elle.

We all have more than one name. Some people say Mr/Mrs so and so, the same person is called by their first name by their friends. Some friends may use a shortened version of a first name.They may also be called Mum/Dad; Grandma/Grandpa; Aunt/Uncle. They may have nic names also. Some people are even called by their initials. Names merely serve to identify which individual is being referred to.

Who, apart from Mohammad, is the "Messenger" in the Quran when it says "Allah and his Messenger"? Who, apart from Mohammad, is the "Warner" in the Quran? These are merely OTHER names for Mohammad, as he is the one identified by them.

There are "proper names", "nic names", "titles", etc. They are all used to identify and all are NAMES, not adjectives.

Here are some adjectives: IGNORANT Mohammad, CRAZY Prophet, MURDEROUS Messenger, SEX-CRAZED Apostle Of Allah... :wink:

elle
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:20 pm

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by elle »

I was actually providing the link for mujahid as he want to know the source. Makes no difference to me how you wish to see it.

defendingChrist
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:27 am

Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by defendingChrist »

Why the muslim always question about Trinity, it seems like they have found their great clue...AHA!

Trinity never was even mentioned...yes the word trinity was never even mentioned by Jesus or by anyone in the bible.

Let me try to enlighten this trinity subject...

The first there came God creating the universe...and us the silly billy human being who had an ego as big as a mammoth and wanted to be the same with God so our great great great x100000000 grandmother (illustratively speaking) took the forbidden fruit and eat it just because a cool snake who can speak their language persuaded her that they would become like GOd when they eat it. See how stupid we are? God created human in his image but certainly not His inteligence. He created human being "perfect" but with limitation. But that limitation is actually needed to make us not like Robot that can only follow command.

There came the first Sin then the second sin than the third sin, fourth so on and so on till God was so angry he wanted to wipe out the entire human population...but...God has a soft spot for human and animals...i dunno why maybe we re so cuddly... so he told Noah to made an arc to get ready for the great flood. And so did Noah make a great arc and their families survived.

Death is the fruit if the sin.

Then after that, came Abraham and his faithful sacrifice of Ishak...made God smile and happy...so he promised Abraham a great nation we know now as Jews.

Jews were naughty...selfcentered...unbelievers who never learnt no matter what God did to them. 10 commandments were given to Moses, obey Me, that's the rule!! Well...the word obey me! are bit harsh...it should read: Love Me! by doing this, this and this...

Nope they never learnt...sins are kept on being commited but there're are always few bunches of good people, God loving people they call them Prophets and few kings. Like King David...well...he got his dark side too.

Back then, if you commited a sin, you have to admit it and slice up some doves or lambs for sacrifice...just like Abraham...but thank God, he doesnt want the Jews to sacrifice their kids. The sacrifice was really not for repenting sin but it was a way to please God...note...your sin remains! So whenyou sined back then...what you do is like saying...ok God...I made mistake...i am sorry...here's a nice burning sacrifice for you...please dont get mad....I hope you are pleased with my burning sacrifice...hope it smells good...


But guess what...God told His prphets that this has to stop. Maybe this is what God had in mind: I am so sad that humans keep on falling to hell.....so we need the ultimate sacrifice so human will no longer suffer...its getting bit stuffed in there anyway, but mostly I don;t want my beloved human get tortured in hell. No way...i love em so much. So let's make a perfect human...without Adam's DNA...because if I make a human from a human father and mother, that would not be good enough...so must be someone perfect...without sin...ok lets choose someone to be the mother of this guy and I will get into him and talk to other humans...because in my form now, they wont be able to see me. They'll be blind and die...being a human and talk to the human would be better because the last time I tried with moses and all didnt really work...well they did a good job for me but the Israelites were just dumb. And maybe some angels said to the lord God, if you take your essence to become a human, that would make yourself in their level...please consider other alternatives oo Lord God...then God might have said: What Level? Low Level? Is that what you mean my lovely angel? I dont care...it doesnt matter...i am still the God that created the universe...i am still the God that granted Abraham and promised him a great nation from his descendant. I don't mind to Humble myself to save them. I love em too much...

So God made virgin Mary pregnant and then Jesus was born.
Jesus made many miracles in the name of the Lord God and teaches Love and tried to make people, the jews, to understand what God wants...lots of people were following Jesus, listening to His sermons, He made few people become his disciples, made miracles and he promised them 1 thing...salvation. He said I am the way of truth and life no one can come to the Father if not through me. The ultimate claim. The claim that only God can do such claim. Moreover, Jesus said...I am He, alpha and omega.

Okay...then the story goes like every one knows...he was crucified then arisen. Before Jesus was ascended he told his disciples that Holy Spirit will guide them, another spirit of God to help them do their works. That is to spread the good news and to make all nations to be His disciples, to follow His teaching...to love another..to love God the most and to love thier enemies and to accept Him as their salvation.

Now...not even 1 word of "trinity " is spoken by Jesus or by his disciples in the gospels. Even the apostle Paul in his journey establishing the first Christian do not use the word" trinity" or saying "oh we have 3 Gods to pray to".

If you see from this point of view...there was and is only 1 GOD. God that created the universe and US human, God of Abraham Ishak and Jacob. God that was "spliting" HIS essence to become human...not too sure if splitting is a good word...please correct me. God that humbled HIMSELF to become a human and speak to human in human form. ANd God that stays in Human heart when the person believes and accept the salvation, the ultimate gift, that is the Holy Spirit.

Seriously...not saying I am christian so it is easy for me to accept this but I seriously find it easy to belief. Because God is love. And whatever God has done for us including creating this universe for us is based on His ultimate unlimited LOVE, so it is not really hard to belief that God wants to humble Himself to come to the world talking to us filthy human. God is not something that we human need to fear for no reason. That's why in christianity we call God...our Father. Just like our dad...we dont fear him we love him...we respect him but if we get nuaghty, he smacks us. We fear him when he's about to smack us when we re kids,,right? I got smacked so many times but I know 1 thing my dad loves me and I love him.

So folks...trinity is about love...the unlimited love that God has done for us.

Some people ask...how can God become a human, his throne must be empty!... God is not a definite being...he's infinity. He is alpha and omega. He is not one form thing. He is everywhere, He resides in every one who believes. He is love and love is his way. He was in Jesus body as human being but he is still God the Father in Heaven...when Jesus was around...GOd was also around...and also at your great great great grand father house.

So thats trinity. Bit long...but hope it gets through.
There has to be the ultimate sacrifice...my most perfect creation should be good for the ultimate sacrifice

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