Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Debate how Islam compares to other faiths and religions.
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Muhammad bin Lyin
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

paarsurrey wrote: Jesus never believed in Trinity and he never spoke of the Trinity from his mouth. Jesus had nothing to do with it.
Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Who tells you these lies?
orange jews for breakfast and 20 oz he brews at night

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John Monash
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by John Monash »

paarsurrey wrote: Jesus never believed in Trinity and he never spoke of the Trinity from his mouth. Jesus had nothing to do with it.
Here is a repeat of a well-known verse that describes the Trinity which you falsely claim does not exist in the Bible. This reference was also cited earlier and initially addressed to you for your reference (emphasis mine).
Trojan wrote:
OK paarsurrey, let's focus
Please read below with eyes wide open and you will find the concept of the Trinity in this verse.

Mathew 28: 1620, The Great Commission

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said'
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Yes Paarsurrey, I know, I know, you keep referring to the word "Trinity" and the above refers to the concept of the "Trinity".
But, using your open mind, what is the honest difference between the "concept" and the literal term applied to that concept? There is no difference at all, because "Trinity" -- either as a concept or term -- is explicitly understood to mean Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and these three facets of the one God Almighty appear in the Great Commission, which was uttered and uniquely introduced by Jesus Christ himself.

How then can you keep a straight face and declare "Jesus never believed in Trinity and he never spoke of the Trinity from his mouth. Jesus had nothing to do with it".

Tut, tut, Parso, methinks you are overworked, take a break.
Cheers
JM

PS I noticed the similar post by MBL after posting mine.

Mr Preet
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Mr Preet »

When Jesus was baptised in Jordan River ALL THREE PERSONS manifested itself: The Voice, The Dove and Jesus Himself. How do you account for this paars?

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Trojan
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Trojan »

paarsurrey wrote: Hi friend Trojan

Don't be so angry, please.
:sleeping: Please don't bore me with your psychological games.
Jesus never believed in Trinity and he never spoke of the Trinity from his mouth.
Did you even read the passage I provided you? If you have missed it, or are too lazy to scroll back then please read the preceeding two postings by other members on this page.
Jesus had nothing to do with it.
Wrong, he had everthing to do with it.
Paul and Church are responsible for it.
Show me one verse ..... Just one verse, to support your theory that Paul was responsible.. All this time you have used your dishonset assumptions to bring up accusations against Paul without even a shred of evidence.
Your claims are baseless so maybe you should excercise some honesty and admit you are wrong instead of pursuing this hopeless thread.

P.S: For the upteenth time, can you please tell me who is responsible for the term "Tawheed" in Islam and if it is mentioned in the koran?

"Muslims are the first victims of Islam, to liberate them from this religion is the best service that one can render them..."
Ernest Renan (1823-1892)

paarsurrey
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by paarsurrey »

Hi friend Trojan and others

You are a smart guy. Did you read my post of Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:20 am and the link I provided?

http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/d" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... rinity.htm

I think the article proves that Trinity was a joint production of Paul, Church and Pagans; it has got nothing to do with innocent Jesus and innocent Moses. Please read it again and concentrate the points mentioned therein.

I respect your faith.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/

paarsurrey
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by paarsurrey »

Show me one verse ..... Just one verse, to support your theory that Paul was responsible
Hi friend/s

If innocent Jesus would have written the NT, I would have pleased to give you many verses from him. The Gospels were written by anonymous sinful scribes and only adopted by sinful Paul/Church to serve their own clever ends; that is sufficient proof that they were responsible for their teachings and misdeeds. Innocent Jesus was not responsible for whatever they wrote or did; as he has nothing to do with it. I think, you all now understand my point.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/

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byteresistor
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by byteresistor »

paarsurrey wrote:
Show me one verse ..... Just one verse, to support your theory that Paul was responsible
Hi friend/s

If innocent Jesus would have written the NT, I would have pleased to give you many verses from him. The Gospels were written by anonymous sinful scribes and only adopted by sinful Paul/Church to serve their own clever ends; that is sufficient proof that they were responsible for their teachings and misdeeds. Innocent Jesus was not responsible for whatever they wrote or did; as he has nothing to do with it. I think, you all now understand my point.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
Here's a muslim that is denying the subject simply on the basis that it cannot be true because it wasn't jesus himself who wrote it.

Do you have some different version of the quran than me paarsurrey? Can you please show me the signature of mohammed in it? I can't seem to find it no matter how hard I try.

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Trojan
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Trojan »

paarsurrey wrote:Hi friend Trojan and others

You are a smart guy. Did you read my post of Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:20 am and the link I provided?

http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/d" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... rinity.htm

I think the article proves that Trinity was a joint production of Paul, Church and Pagans; it has got nothing to do with innocent Jesus and innocent Moses. Please read it again and concentrate the points mentioned therein.

I respect your faith.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
paar,
I can produce tons of such links that debunk Islam and the koran as well, so you have proved nothing on your own, but have borrowed from others that probably have negative views on Islam as well.
I know the church has been accused for much concerning the concept, but you obviously did not read the article in full yourself. There is absolutely no mention of Paul anywhere. Can you please show me where Paul is mentioned anywhere in the link you provided?

"Muslims are the first victims of Islam, to liberate them from this religion is the best service that one can render them..."
Ernest Renan (1823-1892)

paarsurrey
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Paul and his misdeeds

Post by paarsurrey »

Hi my Catholic Protestant friends

I think I had written in these forums that since deviation from Jesus' teachings started with Paul and it continued by the Church under influence of Paul, so for my purposes I club it together and name it cunning Paul. I won't like starting bashing Paul for nothing ; I am interested in Jesus and his truthful teachings. What Paul believed is not my concern that much.The deviation started by Paul continues till we see 32000+ denominations of Catholics Protestants.

However, if you want to know more about Paul and his misdeeds; you may read the article "The Pauline Conspiracy" by A. Victor Garaffa ?

http://www.interfaith.org/articles/pauline_conspiracy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No body could refute his research article so far. It is a marvelous article written by him .

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/

Wootah
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Re: Paul and his misdeeds

Post by Wootah »

paarsurrey wrote:http://www.interfaith.org/articles/pauline_conspiracy/
No body could refute his research article so far. It is a marvelous article written by him .
Like you honestly give a damn if anyone refuted it. I read the first page. All I can see is that the writer has taken a huge bucket of doubt and poured it on the facts. Can you see that when you read it?

Just read that stuff. 'There is no proof', we have to 'take his word'. Heck he was probably the janitor at the building where Gamaliel worked. Good grief.
There is no proof, or tradition, that Paul was a Rabbi although it is probable that he did study toward that goal. Luke indicates that he studied under Gamaliel, in Jerusalem. (Peake's Commentary on the Bible; Page 873: 763a)
"I am a Jew, born at Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel..." (Acts 22:3; RSV)
The Gamaliel referred to in the scriptures, was the first of the famous rabbis of that name. He was a descendant of Hillel. (The Interpreter's Bible; Volume 9: Page 86)
We must be alerted at once that there is no evidence that Paul was the primary or singular student of the famous Rabbi. To say one studied under, or at the feet of, Gamaliel or Hillel or any other great teacher, only meant that he studied in the school of that teacher. There were many students in each of the special rabbinical institutions but it did not mean that that Rabbi or teacher knew them.
No wait, he wasn't the janitor he was the coat boy:
"Then they cast him out of the city, and stoned him; and the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul." (Acts 7:58) His position in the community is not known, nor his importance to those involved in the stoning of Stephen.
Anyway I'll leave the article unrefuted for you.


Here is the thing Paarsurrey, we can take the Islamic text at face value and see how wicked Muhammed is. You have to attempt to denigrate someone and call them cunning.

yeezevee
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by yeezevee »

paarsurrey
I think I had written in these forums that since deviation from Jesus' teachings started with Paul and it continued by the Church under influence of Paul, so for my purposes I club it together and name it cunning Paul. I won't like starting bashing Paul for nothing ; I am interested in Jesus and his truthful teachings. What Paul believed is not my concern that much.The deviation started by Paul continues till we see 32000+ denominations of Catholics Protestants.

However, if you want to know more about Paul and his misdeeds; you may read the article "The Pauline Conspiracy" by A. Victor Garaffa ?

http://www.interfaith.org/articles/pauline_conspiracy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
YOU THINK YOURSELF TOO MUCH dear paarsurrey., You have written nothing and You write nonsense dear paarsurrey. What did That Christian Saint Paul do to you and your Islam dear paarsurrey?? Did he stop that PUNJABI NUT CASE BECOMING ISLAMIC MESSIAH of 19th century??

Let me put down you a concise life story of Paul's Life 10 C.E. -- 62 C.E.
A Chronology of Paul's Life 10 C.E. -- 62 C.E.


10 - 31 Paul is born (his father is a Roman citizen) Grows up in Tarsus (family may have had ties to Judea, e.g. Paul’s insistence that he is a "Hebrew" He Becomes a zealous member of the Pharisees

31/33 Actively persecutes members of a new Jewish sect centered in Jerusalem that claims Jesus as messiah

33/35 Is called by God to preach to the Gentiles.

35/38 Missionary activity in Arabia and Damascus (expelled under Aretas)

37/38 Two week visit to Jerusalem, meets Peter and James but not the larger church (Gal 1:22)

After 37/38 Missionary activity in Cilicia, Syria, from the Antioch church; possibly also Greece

47/50 Writes I Thessalonians

50/51 Gallio episode at Corinth

49/51 Jerusalem Council

52/57 Missionary activity in Asia Minor and Greece (Writes Galatians, Philippians, Philemon, 1 & 2 Corinthians)

56/57 Writes Rome from Corinth

57/58 Arrives in Jerusalem with collection, is arrested and imprisoned 2 years at Caesarea

59/60 Sea journey to Rome


62 Executed after imprisonment at Rome
that is all is his life., Now compare that with our Mr. PBUH and that messiah BUM., You will see whose is criminal and who is not.. As far as the pauline conspiracy of Victor Garaffa bum is concerned ALL HIS ACCUSATIONS AGAINST PAUL can not be equivalent to our Mr. PBUH criminal activities in the first few years after the death of his first wife Khadija..

So don't worry about Paul.. St Paul did a good job moving people from OT to NT..

yeezevee

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Trojan
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Trojan »

yeezevee wrote: YOU THINK YOURSELF TOO MUCH dear paarsurrey., You have written nothing and You write nonsense dear paarsurrey. What did That Christian Saint Paul do to you and your Islam dear paarsurrey?? Did he stop that PUNJABI NUT CASE BECOMING ISLAMIC MESSIAH of 19th century??
:lol: The punjabi nutcase was also a feaking liar.... Read below:

Prediction No. 3: For fifteen days, Mirza carried on arguments with a Christian Priest, named Abdullah Atham, (who was the) head of a local Episcopal diocese. On the last date June 5, 1893, Mirza predicted that within fifteen months, his adversary would be thrown into 'Havia' (lower reaches of Hell). Mirza wrote in these words:

"I admit right this time that if this prediction goes false, that is, if fifteen months from this date, the party who is on falsehood in view of Allah, does not fall into 'Havia', as death punishment, then I am prepared to undergo every kind of punishment: disgrace me, blacken my face collar a rope around my neck or hang me on the gallows; I am ready for all. I swear by the greatness of Allah's Glory that he will certainly do the same, will certainly do the same, will certainly do the same. Earth and sky may deviate but not His Ordainment. If I am a liar, keep the gallows ready for me and consider me the most accursed of all the accursed persons, evil-doers and Satans." (Jang-e-Muqaddas, P. 210-211; Roohani Khazain, Vol. 6, P. 292-293).
Result: Mirza's divination expired on September 5, 1894, but Atham did not die till that date. Therefore, this prediction of Mirza Qadiani came true that:

"If within fifteen months, Atham does not fall into Haviya, then I am a liar, keep the gallows ready for me and consider me the most accursed of all the accursed persons, evil-doers and Satans."

http://irshad.org/exposed/verdict.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"If within fifteen months, Atham does not fall into Haviya, then I am a liar, keep the gallows ready for me and consider me the most accursed of all the accursed persons, evil-doers and Satans."

"Muslims are the first victims of Islam, to liberate them from this religion is the best service that one can render them..."
Ernest Renan (1823-1892)

paarsurrey
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Re: Paul and his misdeeds

Post by paarsurrey »

Wootah wrote:I read the first page.
Hi friends

You should read the full article and then give your comment in a reasonable way.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/

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Trojan
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Trojan »

I think this quote from the apostle Paul should put an end to the presumptions of paarsurrey.
Corinthians: (1 Cor 1:10–18)

“ I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas(Peter)"; still another, "I follow Christ."

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel — not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power

"Muslims are the first victims of Islam, to liberate them from this religion is the best service that one can render them..."
Ernest Renan (1823-1892)

nothingisempty
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by nothingisempty »

I find it funny that a moslem like Paar thinks anything said in the bible has to be taken literally, e.g: concept of Trinity. In the mean time, whenever islam is questioned, they can quickly turn around and say, you need to read the context and will quote a bunch of haditsh that support their arguments in support of what i see as being a hypocrite. Why you need a haditsh to explain what God said in Koran? The language is too difficult?

Mr Preet
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Mr Preet »

paars, what do you mean by "Catholic Protestants"?

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manfred
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by manfred »

Mr Preet wrote:paars, what do you mean by "Catholic Protestants"?
Yes, that did make me laugh when I saw that...

Maybe is means somebody sort halfway between their respective positions, like Anglicans, perhaps? The children of a Christian mixed marriage?

If he simply meant both all Catholics and Protestants, why did he not say "Christians" instead?

Also, Mr Preet, I don't think paarsurrey is remotely interested in the concept of trinity, he just posted his stuff here to make fun of it. He neither understands what is means nor wants to know. But somehow making strawman cases against it makes him feel good I think. Why, I have no idea. Why does he not take a really hard look at his "Jesus taken off the cross and emigrated to India" belief instead? Now that is so unbelievably silly, it really does not deserve consideration by a sane human being.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

paarsurrey
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by paarsurrey »

manfred wrote: If he simply meant both all Catholics and Protestants, why did he not say "Christians" instead?
Hi friend manfred

The JWs and the Mormons claim that they are the only true Christians; hence I mention every follower of Paul (not of Jesus definitely) by the denomination he belongs to.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/

paarsurrey
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by paarsurrey »

Hi friends

John 20:17
16 Jesus saith to her: Mary. She turning, saith to him: Rabboni (which is to say, Master). 17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them: I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God. 18 Mary Magdalen cometh, and telleth the disciples: I have seen the Lord, and these things he said to me. 19 Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. 20 And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord.
http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50020.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jesus denied his divinity; he was different from his God the father to whom he was to go after his natural death; he did not mention here of the Holy Spirit as it was only an angel, not a god.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/

Mr Preet
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Re: Trinity – a mistake of the Catholics Protestants

Post by Mr Preet »

paars wrote:Jesus denied his divinity; he was different from his God the father to whom he was to go after his natural death; he did not mention here of the Holy Spirit as it was only an angel, not a god.
I read and re-read the entire John 20 but I still fail to 'hear' or read Jesus specific words denying His Divinity.

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