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An Ahmadi on Jesus [threads merged]

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:28 pm
by paarsurrey
AYHAN wrote:

paarsurrey wrote: He died a peaceful and natural death and is buried ‎in Mohallah ‎Khanyar, Sirinagar, Kashmir, India.‎


paarsurrey wrote:Hi friend Ayhan

I don't mind if you take part in the research. The Archaeological Department of the Indian Government is aslo doing a lot of things in this connection.


AYHAN wrote:

So the bible and the quran is also wrong? when they said jesus rose from the dead? dont know about quran in the bible it says he went up into heaven, so really he didnt and was buried here? wow.......

Thanks dude.. this discovery will help us get closer to god and you will be rich....

:roll:


Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend AYHAN

Quran does not say that Jesus rose from the physically dead; yes, from the near dead Jesus got cured. Quran memtions that Jesus neither got killed by his enemies nor he died on the Cross; he died a natural death. This point has been explained by the Second Coming 1835-1908 in his book "Jesus in India", one may like to read it:

http://www.*you_got_to_be_kidding*/library/books/je ... index.html

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Re: Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:23 pm
by YellowRubberDucky
But the Bible does and the quran does say the Bible is the word of God.

Apart from mohammed's own words what proof is there that he did not make it all up himself? None.

As a Muslim how do you argue against:- The Dead Sea Scrolls, 3 languages in the bible and the 4 authors of the new testament willing to die for what they wrote?

Re: Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:15 pm
by Marie
paarsurrey wrote:
AYHAN wrote:

paarsurrey wrote: He died a peaceful and natural death and is buried ‎in Mohallah ‎Khanyar, Sirinagar, Kashmir, India.‎


paarsurrey wrote:Hi friend Ayhan

I don't mind if you take part in the research. The Archaeological Department of the Indian Government is aslo doing a lot of things in this connection.


AYHAN wrote:

So the bible and the quran is also wrong? when they said jesus rose from the dead? dont know about quran in the bible it says he went up into heaven, so really he didnt and was buried here? wow.......

Thanks dude.. this discovery will help us get closer to god and you will be rich....

:roll:


Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend AYHAN

Quran does not say that Jesus rose from the physically dead; yes, from the near dead Jesus got cured. Quran memtions that Jesus neither got killed by his enemies nor he died on the Cross; he died a natural death. This point has been explained by the Second Coming 1835-1908 in his book "Jesus in India", one may like to read it:

http://www.*you_got_to_be_kidding*/library/books/je ... index.html

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim



Jesus died on the cross:

The night before Jesus was crucified he was tortured with a special whip that had glass attached to it. Every time the whip hit his body it tore his skin causing significant blood loss. Because of the blood loss his heart had to work faster to keep going and because Jesus was under a lot of stress and did not sleep his body was exhausted. The romans forced Jesus to carry the cross on his back which put more stress on his body and it caused him to fall down. Some scholars speculate the fall might have bruised his heart which created a sac and there is a possibility it might have bursted causing an anuerysm. When Jesus was crucified the resulting wounds caused more bloodloss and pain which put more stress on the body and caused his heart to pump more faster.

Jesus’s death was confirmed when the Roman soldier thrust a spear into his rightside between the ribs. The spear apparently went through the right lung and into the heart and when it was pulled out, some fluid, the pericardial effusion and pleural effusion came out. This would have an appearance of clear fluid like water followed by a large valume of blood. This description is consistent with what modern medicine would have expected to happen. This is significant because polemic shock would have caused a sustained rapid heart rate that would have contributed to heart failure, resulting in the collection of fluid in the membrane around the heart which is pericardial effusion as well as around the lungs which is called pleural effusion.

Also if Jesus did live how would he walk around with nails driven through his feet?

There is no way Jesus could have just walked out of his tomb because it was tightly secured. Based on first century sites his tomb would have had a slanted groove that led down to a low entrance and a large disk shaped stone was rolled down this groove and lodged into the place across the door. A smaller stone was used to secure the disk. Although it was easy to roll this bid disk down the groove, it took several men to role it back up in order to reopen the tomb. Plus Jesus’s tomb was also guarded

Besides how could Jesus move the stone with nails in his hands?

Re: Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:17 pm
by Marie
YellowRubberDucky wrote:But the Bible does and the quran does say the Bible is the word of God.

Apart from mohammed's own words what proof is there that he did not make it all up himself? None.

As a Muslim how do you argue against:- The Dead Sea Scrolls, 3 languages in the bible and the 4 authors of the new testament willing to die for what they wrote?


Don't forget 1st century Christian hymns like the Odes of Solomon and Biblical archaeology.

Re: Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:59 pm
by paarsurrey
YellowRubberDucky wrote:But the Bible does and the quran does say the Bible is the word of God.


Hi friend YellowRubberDucky

I thank you for your comments and interest in the subject.‎

We will see and analyse what the Bible and the other ‎historical evidences say in this connection. Please read ‎the following lines just as an introduction to the issue ‎and in search of truth:‎

Let it be noted that though Christians believe that Jesus (peace be on him) after his ‎arrest through the betrayal by Judas Iscariot, and crucifixion -- and resurrection -- ‎went to heaven, yet, from the Holy Bible, it appears that this belief of theirs is ‎altogether wrong. ‎

Matthew (chapter 12, verse 40) says that just as Jonah was three days and three ‎nights in the belly of the fish, so the Son of Man shall be three days and three nights ‎in the bowels of the earth. Now it is clear that Jonah did not die in the belly of the ‎fish; the utmost that happened was that he was in a swoon or a fit of fainting. ‎

The holy books of God bear witness that Jonah, by the grace of God, remained alive ‎in the belly of the fish, and came out alive; and his people ultimately accepted him. ‎If then Jesus (on whom be peace) had died in the belly of the 'fish', what ‎resemblance could there be between a dead man and the one who was alive, and ‎how could a living one be compared with one dead? ‎

The truth rather is, that as Jesus was a true prophet and as he knew that God, ‎whose beloved he was, would save him from an accursed death, he made a prophecy ‎in the form of a parable, revealed to him by God, in which he hinted that he would ‎not die on the Cross, nor would he give up the ghost on the accursed wood; on the ‎contrary, like the prophet Jonah, he would only pass through a state of swoon. ‎

In the parable he had also hinted that he would come out of the bowels of the earth ‎and would then join the people and, like Jonah, would be honoured by them. So this ‎prophecy too was fulfilled; for Jesus, coming out of the bowels of the earth, went to ‎his tribes who lived in the eastern countries, Kashmir and Tibet, etc. viz. the ten ‎tribes of the Israelites who 721 years before Jesus, had been taken prisoner from ‎Samaria by Shalmaneser, King of Assur, and had been taken away by him.‎
‎ ‎
Ultimately, these tribes came to India and settled in various parts of that country. ‎Jesus at all events must have made this journey; for the divine object underlying his ‎advent was that he should meet the lost Jews who had settled in different parts of ‎India; the reason being that these in fact were the lost sheep of Israel who had given ‎up even their ancestral faith in these countries, and most of whom had adopted ‎Buddhism, relapsing, gradually into idolatry. ‎

Dr. Bernier, on the authority of a number of learned people, states in his Travels that ‎the Kashmiris in reality are Jews who in the time of the dispersal in the days of the ‎King of Assur had migrated to this country. ‎
In any case it was necessary for Jesus (peace be on him) to find out the ‎whereabouts of these lost sheep, who had, on coming to this country, India, become ‎merged into the other people. I shall presently adduce evidence that Jesus (peace be ‎on him) did in fact come to India and then, by stages, travelled to Kashmir, and ‎discovered the lost sheep of Israel among the people who professed the Buddhist ‎faith and that these people ultimately accepted him, just as the people of the ‎prophet Jonah accepted Jonah. And this was inevitable; for Jesus had said in so ‎many words that he had been sent to the lost sheep of Israel.

http://www.*you_got_to_be_kidding*/library/books/jesus-in-‎india/ch1.html

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.‎

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Re: Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:24 pm
by Marie
paarsurrey wrote:
YellowRubberDucky wrote:But the Bible does and the quran does say the Bible is the word of God.


Hi friend YellowRubberDucky

I thank you for your comments and interest in the subject.‎

We will see and analyse what the Bible and the other ‎historical evidences say in this connection. Please read ‎the following lines just as an introduction to the issue ‎and in search of truth:‎

Let it be noted that though Christians believe that Jesus (peace be on him) after his ‎arrest through the betrayal by Judas Iscariot, and crucifixion -- and resurrection -- ‎went to heaven, yet, from the Holy Bible, it appears that this belief of theirs is ‎altogether wrong. ‎

Matthew (chapter 12, verse 40) says that just as Jonah was three days and three ‎nights in the belly of the fish, so the Son of Man shall be three days and three nights ‎in the bowels of the earth. Now it is clear that Jonah did not die in the belly of the ‎fish; the utmost that happened was that he was in a swoon or a fit of fainting. ‎

The holy books of God bear witness that Jonah, by the grace of God, remained alive ‎in the belly of the fish, and came out alive; and his people ultimately accepted him. ‎If then Jesus (on whom be peace) had died in the belly of the 'fish', what ‎resemblance could there be between a dead man and the one who was alive, and ‎how could a living one be compared with one dead? ‎

The truth rather is, that as Jesus was a true prophet and as he knew that God, ‎whose beloved he was, would save him from an accursed death, he made a prophecy ‎in the form of a parable, revealed to him by God, in which he hinted that he would ‎not die on the Cross, nor would he give up the ghost on the accursed wood; on the ‎contrary, like the prophet Jonah, he would only pass through a state of swoon. ‎

In the parable he had also hinted that he would come out of the bowels of the earth ‎and would then join the people and, like Jonah, would be honoured by them. So this ‎prophecy too was fulfilled; for Jesus, coming out of the bowels of the earth, went to ‎his tribes who lived in the eastern countries, Kashmir and Tibet, etc. viz. the ten ‎tribes of the Israelites who 721 years before Jesus, had been taken prisoner from ‎Samaria by Shalmaneser, King of Assur, and had been taken away by him.‎
‎ ‎
Ultimately, these tribes came to India and settled in various parts of that country. ‎Jesus at all events must have made this journey; for the divine object underlying his ‎advent was that he should meet the lost Jews who had settled in different parts of ‎India; the reason being that these in fact were the lost sheep of Israel who had given ‎up even their ancestral faith in these countries, and most of whom had adopted ‎Buddhism, relapsing, gradually into idolatry. ‎

Dr. Bernier, on the authority of a number of learned people, states in his Travels that ‎the Kashmiris in reality are Jews who in the time of the dispersal in the days of the ‎King of Assur had migrated to this country. ‎
In any case it was necessary for Jesus (peace be on him) to find out the ‎whereabouts of these lost sheep, who had, on coming to this country, India, become ‎merged into the other people. I shall presently adduce evidence that Jesus (peace be ‎on him) did in fact come to India and then, by stages, travelled to Kashmir, and ‎discovered the lost sheep of Israel among the people who professed the Buddhist ‎faith and that these people ultimately accepted him, just as the people of the ‎prophet Jonah accepted Jonah. And this was inevitable; for Jesus had said in so ‎many words that he had been sent to the lost sheep of Israel.

http://www.*you_got_to_be_kidding*/library/books/jesus-in-‎india/ch1.html

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.‎

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim



Paarsurrey the three days in the bowels of the earth was a metaphor used to describe how Jesus went to hell. When the ancient Jews meant by stating someone was going to the bowels of the earth it meant they were going to return to the ground. The Bible states the first man came from the earth and when a person dies they return to the earth. Therefore Jesus stated he was going to die and the three days refer to the days he spent in hell and after the three days he would resurrect from the dead and later on join Jonah and the honorable ones in Heaven.

If he did survive there was no way he would have been able to travel to India because he would have been crippled both psychologically and physically.

As for that stupid remark about the Kashmiris being Jews here's what wikipedia has to say:

No Semitic (Arabs/Jews) people, religion, names or language were followed in Pre-Islamic Kashmir. After Islam made inroads into Kashmir, semitization of religion and names occurred. A 15th century AD grave of a Muslim has been made out to be the grave of Jesus. Hindu Kashmir has only Aryan influence and no Semitic influence, as some Islamic scholars seek to portray.
Question book-new.svg
This section does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (September 2007)

The further sayings of Muhammad mention that Jesus died in Kashmir at the age of one hundred and twenty years. The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community has advocated this view for over 100 years. Muslim and Persian sources purport to trace the sojourn of Jesus, known as Isa, or Yuz Asaf ("leader of the healed") along the old Silk Road to the orient. The books, Christ in Kashmir by Aziz Kashmiri, and Jesus Lived in India by Holger Kersten, list documents and articles in support of this view.

There is a temple in the state of Kashmir that is dedicated to Saint Issa. The priests of this temple assert that Jesus traveled there two thousand years ago. According to Kersten, over twenty-one historical documents bear witness to Jesus having lived in Kashmir. Many places there, as well as along the Silk Road, include versions of his name(s) and also versions of the name of Moses. A tomb bearing the name of Yuz Asaf exists in Srinagar to this day, and eighty kilometers away is a tombstone of Moses, which has been tended by Rishis, according to the grave watchman, for over 2700 years. A tomb called Mai Mari da Asthan, "The Final Resting Place of Mother Mary", is situated in a small town named Murree on the Pakistan-Kashmir border.

While Jews did settle in India, they did not settle in the Kasmiri region.

Re: Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:39 am
by paarsurrey
Marie wrote:about the Kashmiris being Jews here's what wikipedia has to say:


Hi friend Marie

Please provide the wikipedia link.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Re: Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:24 pm
by Marie

Re: Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross

PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:00 am
by paarsurrey
Marie wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_India


Hi friend Marie

Please access the followings:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Lost_Tribes

http://www.sol.com.au/kor/7_01.htm
Jesus Lived in India- Holger Kersten

Thus begins Holger Kersten’s book “Jesus Lived in India”. This German book is a thorough, methodical and authoritative examination of the evidence of Christ’s life beyond the Middle East before the Crucifixion and in India and elsewhere after it.

This article is a summary of Kersten’s exhaustive research into Christ’s travels after the Crucifixion, his arrival in India with the Mother Mary and finally his death and entombment in Kashmir. Kersten notes the many parallels of Christ’s teachings with other religious and cultural traditions and suggests that at least some of these figures may have been one and the same personality. It is not possible, Kersten asserts, to disprove that Christ went to India.

The current information documenting Christ’s life is restricted to the gospels and the work of Church theologians. One can hardly trust these sources to be objective considering their obvious interest in maintaining the authority of their Church and its grip on the masses.

The Russian scholar, Nicolai Notovich, was the first to suggest that Christ may have gone to India. In 1887, Notovich, a Russian scholar and Orientalist, arrived in Kashmir during one of several journeys to the Orient. At the Zoji-la pass Notovich was a guest in a Buddhist monastery, where a monk told him of the bhodisattva saint called “Issa”. Notovich was stunned by the remarkable parallels of Issa’s teachings and martyrdom with that of Christ’s life, teachings and crucifixion.

For about sixteen years, Christ travelled through Turkey, Persia, Western Europe and possibly England. He finally arrived with Mary to a place near Kashmir, where she died. After many years in Kashmir, teaching to an appreciative population, who venerated him as a great prophet, reformer and saint, he died and was buried in a tomb in Kashmir itself.

The many Islamic and Hindu historical works recording local history and legends of kings, noblemen and saints of the areas thought to be travelled by Jesus also give evidence of a Christ like man; the Koran, for example, refers to Christ as “Issar”. Further east, the Kurdish tribes of Eastern Anatolia have several stories describing Christ’s stay in Eastern Turkey after his resurrection. These traditional legends have been ignored by the theological community.

The Apocryphal ‘Acts of Thomas’, for example, tell how Christ met Thomas several times after the Crucifixion. In fact they tell us how Christ sent Thomas to teach his spirituality in India. This is corroborated by evidence found in the form of stone inscriptions at Fatehpur Sikri, near the Taj Mahal, in Northern India.

They include “Agrapha”, which are sayings of Christ that don’t exist in the mainstream Bible. Their grammatical form is most similar to that of the Apocryphal gospel of Thomas. This is but one example giving credibility to the idea that texts not recognised by the Church hold important clues about Christ’s true life and his teachings.

It is at Andrapolis that Christ entreated Thomas to go to India to begin spreading his teachings. It seems that Christ and Mary then moved along the West coast of Turkey, proof of this could be an old stopping place for travellers called the “Home of Mary”, found along the ancient silk route.

In his travels through Persia (today’s Iran) Christ became known as Yuz Asaf (leader of the Healed). We know this because a Kashmiri historical document confirms that Isa (the Koranic name for Christ) was in fact also known as Yuz Asaf. The Jami – uf – Tamarik, Volume II, tells that Yuz Asaf visited Masslige, where he attended the grave of Shem, Noah’s son. There are various other accounts such as Agha Mustafa’s “Awhali Shahaii-i-paras” that tell of Yuz Asaf’s travels and teachings all over Persia. It seems that Yuz Asaf blessed Afghanistan and Pakistan with his presence also.

There are for example two plains in Eastern Afghanistan near Gazni and Galalabad, bearing the name of the prophet Yuz Asaf. Again in the Apocryphal Acts of Thomas, Thomas says that he and Christ attended the Court of King Gundafor of Taxila (now Pakistan), in about 47AD, and that eventually both the King and his brother accepted Christ’s teachings.

Kersten claims that there are more than twenty one historical documents that bear witness to the existence of Jesus in Kashmir, where he was known also as Yuz Asaf and Issa. For example the Bhavishyat Mahapurana (volume 9 verses 17-32) contains an account of Issa-Masih (Jesus the Messiah).

It describes Christ’s arrival in the Kashmir region of India and his encounter with King Shalivahana, who ruled the Kushan area (39-50AD), and who entertained Christ as a guest for some time.
{Christ’s life in India, after the crucifixion, challenges current Church teachings at their very foundation. The theology of Saint Paul, the major influence on modern Christianity, is empty fanaticism in the light of this discovery.

The historian Mullah Nadini (1413) also recounts a story of Yuz Asaf who was a contemporary to King Gopadatta, and confirms that he also used the name Issar, ie. Jesus. There is also much historical truth in the towns and villages of Northern India to prove that Jesus and his mother Mary spent time in the area.

For instance, at the border of a small town called Mari, there is nearby a mountain called Pindi Point, upon which is an old tomb called Mai Mari da Asthan or “The final resting place of Mary”. The tomb is said to be very old and local Muslims venerate it as the grave of Issa’s (ie Christ’s) Mother.

The tomb itself is oriented East-West consistent with the Jewish tradition, despite the fact it is within a Muslim area. Assuming its antiquity, such a tomb could not be Hindu either since the Hindus contemporary to Christ cremated their dead and scattered their ashes as do Hindus today.

http://www.sol.com.au/kor/7_01.htm
God bless you for your patience.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran

Thanks

Thanks

Re: Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross

PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:25 am
by Marie
paarsurrey wrote:
Marie wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_India


Hi friend Marie

Please access the followings:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Lost_Tribes

http://www.sol.com.au/kor/7_01.htm
Jesus Lived in India- Holger Kersten

Thus begins Holger Kersten’s book “Jesus Lived in India”. This German book is a thorough, methodical and authoritative examination of the evidence of Christ’s life beyond the Middle East before the Crucifixion and in India and elsewhere after it.

This article is a summary of Kersten’s exhaustive research into Christ’s travels after the Crucifixion, his arrival in India with the Mother Mary and finally his death and entombment in Kashmir. Kersten notes the many parallels of Christ’s teachings with other religious and cultural traditions and suggests that at least some of these figures may have been one and the same personality. It is not possible, Kersten asserts, to disprove that Christ went to India.

The current information documenting Christ’s life is restricted to the gospels and the work of Church theologians. One can hardly trust these sources to be objective considering their obvious interest in maintaining the authority of their Church and its grip on the masses.

The Russian scholar, Nicolai Notovich, was the first to suggest that Christ may have gone to India. In 1887, Notovich, a Russian scholar and Orientalist, arrived in Kashmir during one of several journeys to the Orient. At the Zoji-la pass Notovich was a guest in a Buddhist monastery, where a monk told him of the bhodisattva saint called “Issa”. Notovich was stunned by the remarkable parallels of Issa’s teachings and martyrdom with that of Christ’s life, teachings and crucifixion.

For about sixteen years, Christ travelled through Turkey, Persia, Western Europe and possibly England. He finally arrived with Mary to a place near Kashmir, where she died. After many years in Kashmir, teaching to an appreciative population, who venerated him as a great prophet, reformer and saint, he died and was buried in a tomb in Kashmir itself.

The many Islamic and Hindu historical works recording local history and legends of kings, noblemen and saints of the areas thought to be travelled by Jesus also give evidence of a Christ like man; the Koran, for example, refers to Christ as “Issar”. Further east, the Kurdish tribes of Eastern Anatolia have several stories describing Christ’s stay in Eastern Turkey after his resurrection. These traditional legends have been ignored by the theological community.

The Apocryphal ‘Acts of Thomas’, for example, tell how Christ met Thomas several times after the Crucifixion. In fact they tell us how Christ sent Thomas to teach his spirituality in India. This is corroborated by evidence found in the form of stone inscriptions at Fatehpur Sikri, near the Taj Mahal, in Northern India.

They include “Agrapha”, which are sayings of Christ that don’t exist in the mainstream Bible. Their grammatical form is most similar to that of the Apocryphal gospel of Thomas. This is but one example giving credibility to the idea that texts not recognised by the Church hold important clues about Christ’s true life and his teachings.

It is at Andrapolis that Christ entreated Thomas to go to India to begin spreading his teachings. It seems that Christ and Mary then moved along the West coast of Turkey, proof of this could be an old stopping place for travellers called the “Home of Mary”, found along the ancient silk route.

In his travels through Persia (today’s Iran) Christ became known as Yuz Asaf (leader of the Healed). We know this because a Kashmiri historical document confirms that Isa (the Koranic name for Christ) was in fact also known as Yuz Asaf. The Jami – uf – Tamarik, Volume II, tells that Yuz Asaf visited Masslige, where he attended the grave of Shem, Noah’s son. There are various other accounts such as Agha Mustafa’s “Awhali Shahaii-i-paras” that tell of Yuz Asaf’s travels and teachings all over Persia. It seems that Yuz Asaf blessed Afghanistan and Pakistan with his presence also.

There are for example two plains in Eastern Afghanistan near Gazni and Galalabad, bearing the name of the prophet Yuz Asaf. Again in the Apocryphal Acts of Thomas, Thomas says that he and Christ attended the Court of King Gundafor of Taxila (now Pakistan), in about 47AD, and that eventually both the King and his brother accepted Christ’s teachings.

Kersten claims that there are more than twenty one historical documents that bear witness to the existence of Jesus in Kashmir, where he was known also as Yuz Asaf and Issa. For example the Bhavishyat Mahapurana (volume 9 verses 17-32) contains an account of Issa-Masih (Jesus the Messiah).

It describes Christ’s arrival in the Kashmir region of India and his encounter with King Shalivahana, who ruled the Kushan area (39-50AD), and who entertained Christ as a guest for some time.
{Christ’s life in India, after the crucifixion, challenges current Church teachings at their very foundation. The theology of Saint Paul, the major influence on modern Christianity, is empty fanaticism in the light of this discovery.

The historian Mullah Nadini (1413) also recounts a story of Yuz Asaf who was a contemporary to King Gopadatta, and confirms that he also used the name Issar, ie. Jesus. There is also much historical truth in the towns and villages of Northern India to prove that Jesus and his mother Mary spent time in the area.

For instance, at the border of a small town called Mari, there is nearby a mountain called Pindi Point, upon which is an old tomb called Mai Mari da Asthan or “The final resting place of Mary”. The tomb is said to be very old and local Muslims venerate it as the grave of Issa’s (ie Christ’s) Mother.

The tomb itself is oriented East-West consistent with the Jewish tradition, despite the fact it is within a Muslim area. Assuming its antiquity, such a tomb could not be Hindu either since the Hindus contemporary to Christ cremated their dead and scattered their ashes as do Hindus today.

http://www.sol.com.au/kor/7_01.htm
God bless you for your patience.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran

Thanks

Thanks


from dhamma musings:

Did Jesus Live In India? I
We usually think of the process of myth-making as something that happened in ancient times and over many centuries. Not so. Myth-making is alive and well and the myths made today spread faster and become more widely accepted than in the past mainly because of modern communications. Take the 'Jesus lived in India' myth for example. In 1894 a Russian journalist, Nicalos Notovitch about who little is known, published a book called The Unknown Life of Jesus which was rapidly translated into English and several other languages and attracted a much attention. In the book, Notovitch claimed that during a journey to Ladakh in 1887 he had broken a leg, been put up at the famous Himis Monastery and while there the abbot had read out to him an ancient document called Life of Saint Issa, Best of the Sons of Men. It told of Jesus' visit to Kashmir/Ladakh/Tibet where he studied with Buddhist masters and of his eventual return to Palestine where he taught, was crucified and died. Some years later a Jewish merchant visiting Kashmir/Ladakh/Tibet met the teachers of Jesus, heard of Jesus and wrote an account of his 'unknown years.' Notovitch claimed that the life of Issa was fairly well-known in Kashmir etc and even that detailed accounts of his life in India were to be found hidden away in the Vatican's secret archives. In other words, Notovitch's story had all the ingredients that would make it an irresistible to certain people - the 'wisdom of the East', the romance of the Himalayas, an alternative to conventional Christianity and a good old-fashioned Catholic conspiracy. The book attracted a lot of attention despite being panned by most reviewers.
But then the big guns were brought to bear on it. Prof. Max Muller, the most widely known and respected scholar of his generation gave his verdict on Notovitch's book. He started by pointing out that despite the claim that the life of Issa was well-known it did not appear in any of the catalogues of the literature of Tibet (and there many of these catalogues, some of them very ancient). He continued by highlighting some of the extraordinary coincident in the book. 'If we understand Mr. Notovitch rightly, this life of Christ was taken down from the mouths of some Jewish merchants who came to India immediately after the Crucifixion.' Muller asked how these Jewish merchants happened, among the uncounted millions of India, to meet 'the very people who had known Issa as a casual student of Sanskrit and Pali in India…and still more how those who had known Issa as a simple student in India, saw at once that he was the same person who had been put to death under Pontius Pilate…Two things in their account are impossible, or next to impossible. The first, that the Jews from Palestine who came to India in about 35 A.D should have met the very people who had known Issa when he was a student at Benares; the second, that this Sutra of Issa, composed in the first century of our era, should not have found a place either in the Kandjur or in the Tandjur.' As Muller was writing his article about Notovitch's book he receive a letter from an Englishwoman friend who happened to have just visited Himis Monastery. It was dated Leh, Ladakh, June 29, 1894, and read in part, 'Yesterday we were at the great Himis monastery, the largest Buddhist monastery up here, - 800 lamas. Did you hear of a Russian who could not gain admittance to the monastery in any way, but at last broke his leg outside and was taken in? His object was to copy a Buddhist life of Christ which is there. He says he got it and has published it since in French. There is not a single word of truth in the whole story! There has been no Russian here. No one has been taken into the Seminary for the past fifty years with a broken leg!'
In June 1895 Professor J. Archibald Douglas of Agra wrote a letter to the papers concerning Notovitch. He was at that time a guest in the Himis monastery, enjoying the hospitality of the very abbot who was supposed to have imparted the Unknown Life to Notovitch. Douglas found that no memory of any foreigner with a broken leg lingered at Leh or at Himis. The abbot of Hemis indignantly repudiated the statements ascribed to him by Notovitch, and said that no traveler with a broken leg had ever been nursed at the monastery. He stated with emphasis that no such work as the 'Life of Issa' was known in Tibet, and that the statement that he had imparted such a record to a traveler was an invention. When Notovitch's book was read to him he exclaimed with indignation, "Lies, lies, lies, nothing but lies!" Further, the abbot had not received from Notovitch the presents Notovitch reported having given him - a watch, an alarm clock, and a thermometer. In fact, he didn’t even know what a thermometer was. The Victorians took great note of their scholars and scientists and The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ quickly lost its appeal and was relegated to well-deserved obscurity.
But literary frauds (and there are many of them) have an amazing ability to hang on - just think of the Book of Mormon, the Protocol of the Elders of Zion and the Mahatma Letters (these last two perpetrated by Russians incidently). The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ was to become anything but 'unknown' and to take on a life of its own.

Jesus lived in India

Jesus lived in India: His Unknown Life before and after the Crucifixion
by Kersten, Holger

Kersten’s Case
Holger Kersten, professor in Religious History, has come up with an interesting read. This book Jesus Lived in India, attempts to present the following case: Jesus Christ has been misrepresented by the ‘Christian’ world. According to him, what is generally hailed as the Christian doctrine comes from the Apostle Paul. Jesus, claims Kersten, was influenced by Buddhist teaching and is found to be expounding ‘Eastern’ ideas.[1] And he makes another observation that Jesus did not actually die after the Crucifixion, but resuscitated and moved across to Kashmir in India, where he eventually died at the age of 120.

His Objective

Kersten writes, “Western man must now reorient himself in the most literal sense of the word - turn towards the eastern dawn” (p.5).

His Resources

This is not a novel idea that Kersten has come up with. Nicolai Notovitch propagated this theory after his visit to Ladakh in 1887. It was quickly picked up and promoted by the founder of the Ahmadiya movement, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad – who found it a good way of explaining the verse in the Koran, which claims that Jesus did not die on the Cross.[2]

Kersten follows the postmodern mood to deconstruct history and appeals to the likes of Albert Schweitzer and Rudolf Bultmann, to make his case.

A Response
Kersten calls for attention, more because he has attempted to go against the overwhelming record of history, looking for ‘cryptic’ clues, as it were.
This response reveals a few blind spots in his approach.
Understanding the Issue
(a) History deals with past events and so a case for history is built on collective evidences. To provide a comprehensive record of events that occurred decades earlier, leave alone the 20 centuries since the time of Jesus Christ, is a challenge. And Kersten would appreciate it, especially with his difficulty in tracing the material related to Notovitch (Pp.15, 17).

(b) In historiography, apart from the authenticity of the documents, factors like the pre-suppositions and motives of the ‘history writers,’ are vital issues. Surely, the task is to recover ‘history’ from self-propagandists, oppressive monarchies, political structures or even religious clouts. So Kersten’s suspicion that Jesus is manipulated, codified (Pp.4,107) might be a worthy quest, but can all of history be simply discounted as unreliable?

(c) There are other weightier issues of ‘context’ that cannot be divorced from the ‘text.’ How does an author justify a disregard of the Jewish backdrop of Jesus?

(d) Other issues to be considered: Are the other manuscripts [Buddhist and Gnostic] in discussion claimed to be historical? Should they also not be approached with the hermeneutic of suspicion for a fair assessment? Are those texts interpreted within their own philosophical systems?

Some Blind spots
Text Matters
(a) Kersten adopts a historico-critical approach to the Gospels. This is laudable, as the Bible has always been open to verification, as a document of history.

This flows directly from the Biblical theology of Imago Dei, where human reason and choices are affirmed. I mention that to highlight that Kersten may not find a warrant to do a similar treatment to the other sacred scriptures in India and Tibet that he refers to, certainly not a historico-critical treatment.

(b) Kersten thoroughly misses the point when he says that Jesus suggested a freer version of the Law (p.93). Any student of the Bible would know that Jesus set the law on a higher plane (Matt 5:21,22,27,28). And He came to fulfil the law and not to destroy it (Matt 5:17). Kersten’s observation that the ten commandments that Moses brought are the same as found in India before Moses (p.43) is similar to the syllogism: Dogs have ears, my brother has ears; My brother is a dog! Very far-fetched. There may be some parallels in content, but no parallels in context.

(d) To me, it appears that Kersten’s case is more philosophical than historical. He attempts to deconstruct the historical validity of the Biblical texts; he fails to authenticate the texts and manuscripts he builds his case upon. He writes, “The writer of Matthew was evidently no historian, and never intended to write either a chronological account or a biography of Jesus.” This at least is indicative of an investigative mind, but he conveniently turns off his suspicion mode when he deals with other Scriptures, the Pali texts (p.12), or the Puranas, for example (p.123).

Context Matters
(a) Kersten expresses concern regarding the influence of the Church of Rome with all its emperors, popes and cardinals, and fears that the original Christian doctrine would have been lost (p.107). While he may be given the benefit of doubt, he does not seem interested in the manuscript record of the New Testament from the early centuries before Constantine’s times.[3] He is thereby guilty of throwing the baby with the bathwater.

He also ignores the Old Testament Scripture, which contains many pointers to Jesus, and thereby errs in detaching Jesus from his historical roots. There have been at least 60 prophecies,[4] and some of them very specific, made centuries earlier – and any serious student of the Bible cannot shake off their amazing fulfilment.

(b) Kersten surprisingly fails to pick up certain cryptic clues! For example, referring to certain texts, he writes, ‘these are sacred objects, and not for you to see,’ ‘ . . . for simply to find those books among the many thousands would itself have taken a considerable time’ (p.9). He blissfully underestimates the huge premium placed on mystic knowledge, and on the intuitive by most Eastern religious texts.

So, a major flaw is; when he reads the Gospel texts, he wants to read it ‘between the lines,’ (p.180) and when he approaches an Indian religious text he reads it literally. Further Kersten would use Gnostic texts as historical documents, while the Gnostics were better known for stories, symbols, and esoteric teachings. An area where Dan Brown falters as well!

(c) With reference to similar names as found in the Bible and texts in the East, Kersten goes overboard in building his plot and excels in what if I may call ‘history fiction.’ How sure can one be that the person/ places represented in totally different writings are the same? Similar sounding names [if they are true] at best establish some connections. In fact, the silk route he refers to is a helpful clue to understand the commonalities; and so the crucial test is: Which came first? The Gospels or the purported writings on the life of Jesus found in Tibet! So, there lies the task cut out for Kersten.

(d) The next question that follows ‘what is being said’ is ‘who is saying what’! For example, he refers to Luke 2:52 as a suggestive sentence for Jesus’ exposure to Buddhism in his childhood: “And Jesus increased in favour with God and man.” He overrides the elementary questions: ‘Which idea of God is talked about?’ and ‘Who is saying this?’ The Jewish and Buddhist understanding on God[5] are worlds apart. Another good example of his usurping words out of context is: ‘The Eternal Spirit resolves to take on human form . . . freeing the soul from its rude mortality,’ (p.10) which is a Gnostic import to the Christian doctrine of incarnation. In the Christian understanding, matter is not evil. Sin is.

To suggest that ‘God’ in Jewish texts is the same as ‘God’ in other texts is a fallacy of equivocation.

(e) Kersten rebuffs the backdrop in which revelation comes in the Christian understanding. In the Christian understanding, the Bible is not just a record of writings by humans – it is a divine book! And the Jews are notably ‘People of the Book.’ The Text is very foundational to the Jew for his very existence (Josh 1:7; Ps 1:2, Deut 6). Yahweh is a God who spoke and Jesus reiterated the indestructibility of the Scripture (Lk 16:17). The divine inspiration, oral tradition, the authority of the Text, the importance of history, the unalterable nature of Scripture, meticulous transmission, the curses against corruption of the Text etc., clearly show the dependability of the Text.

(f) Kersten is not unaware of ‘presuppositions’ in history writing. He would view Max Muller’s letter with scepticism because of Muller’s comments elsewhere (p.15).

One cannot miss Kersten’s presuppositions though. He finds virgin birth, resurrection and ascension of Jesus something like a pious fairy tale. He writes, ‘. . it is quite impossible for the body of Jesus simply to have risen up into the air. . . Moreover, there is no room for physical matter in the spiritual domain’ (p.31). He finds miracles mentioned in the Bible not conceivable. So, now we know why Kersten has to put up his fanciful last chapter ‘After the Crucifixion.’

(g) Kersten is strangely comfortable with other myths, traditions and beliefs like the reincarnation (p.65, 75ff). Perhaps supernatural of a different kind seems acceptable to him.

(h) Kersten is sorry that some of the texts that Notovitch had seen are unavailable (p.17). It would be helpful if Kersten would pursue the texts that are available and understand the Buddhist teachings within their own system. At least he can grasp the ‘context’ where it appears, if not the ‘text’ itself.

(i) Kersten’s reference to the influential Bultmann is a reference to outdated approaches in scholarly circles. Many pupils of Bultmann have found a strong historical anchor for the kerygma in the history of Jesus than Bultmann allowed. Others have radically criticized his reading of the influence of Gnosticism and Hellinism on primitive Christianity.[6]

(j) Kersten would go to minute details to show the Shroud of Turin was the one used to wrap the body of Jesus in the tomb, for his own reasons. His argument being ‘dead people don’t bleed,’ and observes that the stains on the Shroud imply that Jesus did not die. Leaving aside the many technical aspects that he uses to build his case; one wonders about his position. The death of Christ is a historical event that many liberal scholars would concede. It was much later in the first century that some Gnostic ideas of a docetic Jesus, who did not die are seen. Yet, Kersten ignoring the weight of the collective evidence builds a case from the Shroud alone. He has dared to put all his eggs into one basket and that not a secure one!

Geisler explains that Christianity does not stand or fall by the authenticity of the Shroud. There is more than sufficient evidence without the Shroud.[7]

(k) Ideas have consequences and a reinforcing case can be made for the Bible as authentic and unique, taking into account its influence on science, history, civilizations, philosophy, human rights, judiciary et al.

And Kersten would have to defend the natural outworking of his pantheistic ideas!

Conclusion:

This book is a neatly packaged ‘possible’ explanation of the beliefs Kersten holds dear. An objective research on these issues might have produced vastly different findings though.

Neil Vimalkumar

wiki on Nicolas Notovitch's work:

Edgar Goodspeed describes the debunking of Notovitch's claims as a hoax.

Notovitch's writings were immediately controversial and after the German orientalist Max Mueller corresponded with the Hemis monastery Notovitch claimed to have visited, and J.Archibald Douglas visited Hemis Monastery, and neither found any evidence that Notovich (much less Jesus) had even been there himself, his claims were widely rejected. The head of the Hemis community signed a document that denounced Notovitch as an outright liar.[10]

The story of his visit to Hemis seems to be taken from H.P. Blavatsky's Isis Unveiled.[11] In the original, the traveler with the broken leg was taken in at Mount Athos in Greece and found the text of Celsus' True Doctrine in the monastery library.

What people had to say on Kersten's previous book The Jesus Conspiracy:

* Eugene O. Bowser (University of Northern Colorado), Library Journal, June 15, 1994

"Two amateurs with esoteric interests propose a double conspiracy: that Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus conspired with the centurion to get Jesus to the tomb alive, where the Essenes resuscitated him, and that the Catholic Church perpetrated a fraud by substituting a medieval cloth for shroud samples because the Shroud of Turn shows that Jesus was alive, thus disproving Christianity. The authors trace a tenuous trail from the Tomb to Turin, with huge gaps between uncertain sources and heavy use of expressions such as could have and must have. Their resuscitation theory is buttressed by erroneous claims, e.g., that the Greek of "Jesus of Nazareth" proves he was an Essene. In addition, the validity of a computer analysis of poor photos of the shroud samples remains to be verified; the authors' contention that the image is of a living man is not conclusive. A book for aficionados of conspiracy theories and those looking for offbeat views of Jesus."

* Review: Gary Young, Booklist, volume 90, June 1-15, 1994

This book will be cataloged as nonfiction, which seems to contradict its style. The subtitle provides the focus of the book but not the fact that it is of the genre that could be called "Have I got news for you!" The authors confront the venerable Shroud of Turin, acclaimed by some as the burial cloth of Jesus of Nazareth. In the process of exposing fraud, the same writers tackle the mystery of Christ's Resurrection. The reader is carried to the authors' conclusions by a circuitous trip through mythology, medieval intrigue, and trouble with ecclesiastics, especially St. Paul. One is reminded of Hugh Schonfelds' Passover Plot. Detectives will enjoy this work more than theologians.

Re: Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross

PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:55 pm
by Nosubmission
Hey paarsurrey,

Is this your final destination after the CAF? Did they ban you there? Is this why you are here to repeat your heretical tenets by simply copying and pasting your material? :)

In case you have not read my articles on the critique of the peculiar Islamic approach to Jesus' crucifixion:

http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/ ... doxes.html

In this first article I exposed the weak points of the Ahmadiyya heresy too.

Here is my second article, which shows the sources of the denial of the crucifixion in Islam:

http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/ ... ixion.html

Have fun!

Re: Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross

PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:34 pm
by paarsurrey
Nosubmission wrote:Hey paarsurrey,
CAF? Did they ban you there?


Hi friend Nosubmission.

Yes;they did. I write on my blog.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Re: Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross

PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:40 pm
by Marie
Nosubmission wrote:Hey paarsurrey,

Is this your final destination after the CAF? Did they ban you there? Is this why you are here to repeat your heretical tenets by simply copying and pasting your material? :)

In case you have not read my articles on the critique of the peculiar Islamic approach to Jesus' crucifixion:

http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/ ... doxes.html

In this first article I exposed the weak points of the Ahmadiyya heresy too.

Here is my second article, which shows the sources of the denial of the crucifixion in Islam:

http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/ ... ixion.html

Have fun!


Nosubmission there were many heretical Christian sects in Arabia during the time of Muhammed and it is believed by some Islamic scholars ( nonmuslim of course ) that Muhammed copied off Jesus not dying on the cross idea from Docetism. Docetism teaches that only the physical body of Jesus died on the cross and that his spirit lived on and went up to him. Docetism teaches that Jesus is a spirit who only possessed the body that was crucified and it continued to live on afterwords.

After the last supper Jesus went with his disciples to the Mount of Olives to the Garden of Gethsemene and there he prayed all night. As Jesus prayed he sweated tears of blood, This is known as Hematidorisis and it is associated with a high degree of pschological stress. What happens is the severe anxiety causes the release of chemicals that break down the capillaries in the sweat glands. As a result there is a small amount of bleeding into these glands and the sweat comes out tinged with blood. What this did was make the skin extremely fragile so that when Jesus was tortured by the Roman soldier the next day, his skin would be very sensitive.

As for the flogging Roman soldiers of that time used a whip of braided leather thongs with metal balls woven into them. When the whip would strike the flesh, these balls would cause deep bruises or contusions, which would break open with further blows and the whip had pieces of sharp bone as well, which would cut the flesh severely. The back would be so shredded that part of the spine was sometimes exposed by the deep deep cuts. The whipping would have gone all the way from the shoulders down to the back, the buttocks, and the back of the legs. It is known that many people would die from this kind of beating even before they were crucified. At least the victim would experience tremendous pain and go into hypovolemic shock.

When the Roman Soldiers placed a person on the cross they used 5 to 7 inch nails to drive through the wrists where the median nerve runs. This is the largest nerve going out to the hand and it would have been crushed by the nails. When the soldiers drove the nails through their feet, crushed the nerve there too. Also because the person's arms were outstretched probably about 6 inches in length. His shoulders might have been dislocated.

Jesus was hung in a vertical position and once the person is hanging in a vertical position, crucifixion is essentially an agonizingly slow death by asphyxiation. The reason for this is the stress put on the muscles and diaphragm put the chest into an inhaled position. Basically in order to exhale Jesus would have push up on his feet so the tension muscles could be eased for a moment. In doing so the nail would tear through the foot, eventually locking up against the tarsal bones. After managing to exhale, the person would then be able to relax down and take another breath in. Again he would have to push up to exhale, scraping his bloody back against the coarse wood of the cross and this would be repeated until complete exhaustion sets in. As the person slows down his breathing, the person goes into what is called respiratory acidosis which is the carbon dioxide in the blood is dissolved as carbonic acid, causing the acidity of the blood to increase. This leads to an irregular heartbeat.

Even before Jesus died, hypovolemic shock would have caused a rapid heart rate that could have contributed to heart failure resulting in the collection of fluid in the membrane around the heart, called pericardial effusion as well as around the lungs, which is called pleural effusion. I already mentioned this fluid before on my first post to this topic. It is the fluid that came out when the Roman soldier pierced Jesus side with a spear.

Re: Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross

PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:08 pm
by paarsurrey
Marie wrote:Jesus went with his disciples to the Mount of Olives to the Garden of Gethsemene and there he prayed all night.


Hi friends

I would like to share with my friends what the Promised Messiah, Second Coming 1835-1908 has about Jesus prayers at the Garden of Gethesmene:

Among the testimonies which show that Jesus (peace be on him) was saved from the Cross is the one narrated in Matthew, chapter 26, verses 36 to 46, which relate that after getting information, through revelation, of his impending arrest, Jesus prayed to God all night, on his face, and in tears, and such prayer offered with such humility, and for which Jesus had ample time, could not go unaccepted; for the cry of an elect of God, addressed at a time of distress, is never turned down. How was it then, that the prayer of Jesus which he had addressed all night with a painful heart and in a state of distress was rejected? Jesus had said: The Father who is in heaven listens to me.

Therefore, when his prayer addressed in such a state of distress was not heard, how can it be said that God heard his prayers? The gospels also show that Jesus (peace be on him) was certain at heart that his prayer had been accepted; he had great confidence in that prayer. That is why when he was arrested and put on the Cross, and when he found the circumstances not according to his expectations, he involuntarily cried 'Eli, Eli lama sabachthani', meaning, 'My God, my God why hast Thou forsaken me.', i.e., he did not expect that it would come to this -- that he would die on the Cross. He believed that his prayer would be heard.

So, both these references to the gospel show that Jesus firmly believed that his prayer would be heard and accepted, that his tearful supplications addressed throughout the night would not be wasted, whereas he had himself taught his disciples, on divine authority: When you pray, the prayer will be accepted. Further, he had also narrated the parable of the judge who feared neither man nor God.

The purpose of this parable was that the disciples should realise that God undoubtedly answered prayers. Although Jesus knew from God that there was a great affliction in store for him, yet, like all righteous persons, he prayed to God, believing that there was nothing impossible for God and that God determined whether any events would happen or not. Therefore, the rejection of Jesus' own prayer would have shaken the faith of the disciples.

Was it possible to place before the disciples an example destructive of their faith? If they had seen with their own eyes that the prayer of a great prophet like Jesus, addressed all night with burning passion, was not accepted, the unfortunate example would have been very trying for their faith. Therefore, the Merciful God could not but have accepted this prayer. It is certain the prayer offered at Gethsemane was accepted.

http://www.*you_got_to_be_kidding*/library/books/je ... a/ch1.html

So, Jesus' prayers at the Garden was accepted by the Creator - God Allah YHWH; and Jesus was saved a cursed death on the Cross.

It is very reasonable.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Re: Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross

PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:53 pm
by Marie
paarsurrey wrote:
Marie wrote:Jesus went with his disciples to the Mount of Olives to the Garden of Gethsemene and there he prayed all night.


Hi friends

I would like to share with my friends what the Promised Messiah, Second Coming 1835-1908 has about Jesus prayers at the Garden of Gethesmene:

Among the testimonies which show that Jesus (peace be on him) was saved from the Cross is the one narrated in Matthew, chapter 26, verses 36 to 46, which relate that after getting information, through revelation, of his impending arrest, Jesus prayed to God all night, on his face, and in tears, and such prayer offered with such humility, and for which Jesus had ample time, could not go unaccepted; for the cry of an elect of God, addressed at a time of distress, is never turned down. How was it then, that the prayer of Jesus which he had addressed all night with a painful heart and in a state of distress was rejected? Jesus had said: The Father who is in heaven listens to me.

Therefore, when his prayer addressed in such a state of distress was not heard, how can it be said that God heard his prayers? The gospels also show that Jesus (peace be on him) was certain at heart that his prayer had been accepted; he had great confidence in that prayer. That is why when he was arrested and put on the Cross, and when he found the circumstances not according to his expectations, he involuntarily cried 'Eli, Eli lama sabachthani', meaning, 'My God, my God why hast Thou forsaken me.', i.e., he did not expect that it would come to this -- that he would die on the Cross. He believed that his prayer would be heard.

So, both these references to the gospel show that Jesus firmly believed that his prayer would be heard and accepted, that his tearful supplications addressed throughout the night would not be wasted, whereas he had himself taught his disciples, on divine authority: When you pray, the prayer will be accepted. Further, he had also narrated the parable of the judge who feared neither man nor God.

The purpose of this parable was that the disciples should realise that God undoubtedly answered prayers. Although Jesus knew from God that there was a great affliction in store for him, yet, like all righteous persons, he prayed to God, believing that there was nothing impossible for God and that God determined whether any events would happen or not. Therefore, the rejection of Jesus' own prayer would have shaken the faith of the disciples.

Was it possible to place before the disciples an example destructive of their faith? If they had seen with their own eyes that the prayer of a great prophet like Jesus, addressed all night with burning passion, was not accepted, the unfortunate example would have been very trying for their faith. Therefore, the Merciful God could not but have accepted this prayer. It is certain the prayer offered at Gethsemane was accepted.

http://www.*you_got_to_be_kidding*/library/books/je ... a/ch1.html

So, Jesus' prayers at the Garden was accepted by the Creator - God Allah YHWH; and Jesus was saved a cursed death on the Cross.

It is very reasonable.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks


Paarsurrey Jesus was not crying, the tears of blood refer to sweat coming from his body. Also when Jesus asked why has thou forsaken me, he meant why did you leave me referring to the fact the father left him. Also Jesus asked his father in the Garden of Gethsemene if it was his will take may this cup be taken from me, yet not as my will but as yours, meaning if it is God's will take away Jesus's destiny. Later on Jesus then prayed, My father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink your will will done, meaning if you cannot take away my destiny then I will fulfill my destiny which was to die on the cross.

Jesus did not pray with burning passion, he prayed under great psychological distress.

No wonder why you were banned from that website Nosubmission mentioned. Who would want to listen to your idiocy.

Re: Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross

PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:10 pm
by paarsurrey
Hi friend Marie

I like the Catholics. They are good people.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Are you a Protestant? Please don't mind.

Thanks

Re: Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross

PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:20 pm
by Marie
paarsurrey wrote:Hi friend Marie

I like the Catholics. They are good people.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Are you a Protestant? Please don't mind.

Thanks


I'm Protestant.

Re: Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross

PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:43 pm
by paarsurrey
Marie wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:Hi friend Marie

I like the Catholics. They are good people.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Are you a Protestant? Please don't mind.

Thanks


I'm Protestant.


Nevermind; I respect your faith. May God Allah YHWH bless you!

Thanks

Re: Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross

PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:51 am
by Nosubmission
@ Marie

Have you read my articles at answering-islam.org yet?

Here is a link that could help you understand why Ahmadiyya movement is considered heretical and banned by mainstream and Orthodox Muslims: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya

The founder of this sect had weird ideas and was good at innovating things and concocting new doctrines. The followers of Ahmadiyya follow their own interpretation of the Qur'an. Actually, they have their own Qur'an version. I had to leave the CAF in 2008 because a follower of the Ahmadiyya movement (someone else than paarsurrey!) insisted on perverting/twisting the New Testament text and injecting into it his personal tenets. Since the moderators of the CAF kept tolerating that fellow, I walked out of the forum. I wonder how and why they banned paarsurrey though.

The doctrine spread by paarsurrey and people like him are alien not only to the Bible, but also to the Qur'an! Although the Qur'an contends that the Jews could never approach Jesus to harm Him, Ahmadiyya teaches that the Jews could scourge and crucify Jesus, humiliating Him in any way except death. This is considered a blasphemous teaching by Orthodox Islam. If you read my articles on this issue, you could get more information about Islam and Ahmadiyya, which aims to distort not only the Bible but also the Islamic scripture. :)

Re: Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross

PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:41 am
by paarsurrey
Hi friends marie and Nonsubmission

CAF did not formally ban me. I did not do anything which the moderator could not tolerate. Under an immense pressure of some Catholics; they had to deny me access to write; though I cas still read the posts and my own post. I understand that I had no grievance with CAF. In fact many Catholics liked me and my psots very much; it is at exhortation of a Catholic friend at CAF that I started my own blog. By and large the Catholics I admire most; if there were some who could not tolerate; I understand it.

i love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran. CAF forum is the best forum, in my opinion.

Thanks