Are Allah and YHWH one and the same?

[Whale]

Did Peter claim he is God's Messenger?

Was Muhammad a messenger only because he made the claim? Ok, I claim I'm God's messenger.

Muhammad was LYING when he said he was God's messenger.

[joseph]

I claim I'm God's messenger.

Hail the Whale.

Behold, the Holy Fish.

[Whale]

At least I'm not attracted to 6 year olds like Muhammad was, right?

[wizard]

I claim I'm God's messenger.

Hail the Whale.

Behold, the Holy Fish.

hail Mohamed
Behold, the Holy Shit.

[Oliver128]

Going back to differentiating between YHWH and Allah …

You may recall that in the tragic tale of Adam and Eve in the Garden of God there appeared a ‘newcomer’ an ‘interloper’ who introduced a ‘deception’ that carried the woman away from the command of YHWH – who was this ‘deceiver’?

In Eze 28 we find the prophet speaking against the King of Tyre; ‘You had the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.’ ‘You were in Eden, the Garden of God … you were the anointed cherub who covers … you were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you.’ These words could not be directed solely at the King of Tyre for he certainly had not been in the Garden of God nor was he a cherub (or angel) – previously the prophet had denounced the King for saying; ‘Because your heart is lifted up you have said, I am a god, I sit in the seat of the gods’ – no, these remarks are directed toward the one who was ‘deceiving’ and influencing the King of Tyre.

In Joh 8 Jesus is arguing with some Jews who claimed to believe in him, in the course of discussion Jesus discloses the truth regarding the character of Satan; “I know that you are Abraham's offspring; yet you seek to kill me, because my word has no place in you. … Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies.” Satan is the ‘father of lying deception’.

In 2Cor 4 Paul laments; ‘And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel’ … a clear reference to the ‘deception’ of Satan perpetrated upon unbelievers to keep them from believing.

And finally, in the Quran we find:
Q 5.5 O mankind! Lo! The promise of Allah is true. So let not the life of the world beguile you, and let not the (avowed) beguiler beguile you with regard to Allah.

Q 5.54 And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers. [Pickthal]

In 5.5 Pickthal translates the word before beguiler as ‘avowed’, other translators use ‘chief’ or ‘arch’, the Noble Quran throws in an explanatory (Satan) in parentheses to assist the English reader. As for Pickthal’s choice of ‘beguiler’, other translators use the word ‘deceiver’. So it would appear that the Quran is, in this instance at least, in agreement with the OT and NT that Satan is the ‘chief’ ‘arch’ ‘avowed’ ‘deceiver’ or ‘beguiler’.

In 5.54 Pickthal chooses the word ‘scheme’ where other translators use the word ‘plan’ or ‘plot’ – this is an interesting deviation in translation – for the word ‘plan’ does not carry any ‘negative’ connotations but the words ‘scheme’ and ‘plot’ may be interpreted in an ‘negative’ fashion:

Scheme - A secret or devious plan; a plot. To make plans, especially secret or devious ones.
Plot - A secret plan to accomplish a hostile or illegal purpose; a scheme.

Here are some synonyms for ‘devious’: sly, scheming, calculating, tricky, crooked, indirect, treacherous, dishonest, wily, insidious, evasive, deceitful, underhanded, insincere, surreptitious, double-dealing, not straightforward – I cannot find a ‘positive’ or ‘non-negative’ word in the list.

This seems to me to be a ‘devious’ suggestion that the ‘Arch-Deceiver’ is none other than Allah (Satan).

[CuteCoot]

I do not want to co-opt falsehood into truth. Monotheism is falsehood.

I think you and I are understanding monotheism differently. I'm simply taking it as "there is one god" while I think you're adding a lot of baggage that has been associated historically with Christianity and Islam in particular. (I'm not aware of ways in which Judaism has been a political or civilizational threat, at least not in recent times.)

You refer to the "alien" or transcendental aspect of the God of monotheism. However, since this God is a totality of all possibilities, it must - and indeed does - contain an intimate side or aspect as in the Koranic "closer to him than the jugular vein" idea (50:16) and Jesus' idea that "the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:21).

So the monotheistic God CAN indeed refer to a higher or larger "I" or Self AS WELL AS to a transcendental principle beyond or outside of our everyday experience.

You keep identifying monotheism with fascism but they are not or need not be the same thing. It's true that Islamists identify the two but many others within Islam do not. And you don't need any kind of theism at all to install a fascist rule over people as we can see from atheist-communist totalitarianism and the earlier Asian forms deriving from Confucianism and Shinto. Roman rule, at the height of the Empire, was fascistic and yet religious life was governed by an apparently tolerant polytheism so that conquered peoples could keep their own gods, or even add them to the existing pantheon, but politically they had to submit to Rome.

Fascism operates through a central idea or principle, be it a God (Islam) or an idea (communism) or just a city (Rome). It is evil because it coerces through force and punishment rather than through reason and persuasion. Science, for example, also operates through a central idea or principle: that there are universal laws that govern physical (and other) behaviour everywhere in the universe so that if you find a law here it will also apply there. However, science does not (so far) seek to impose its version of monotheism through brute force, only through the presentation and discussion of data and ideas.

Like you, I don't like fascism but I would not tar all monotheisms or all monotheistic styles of thinking with this particular brush.

[CuteCoot]

You may recall that in the epic of Adam and Eve in the Garden of God there appeared a ‘newcomer’ an ‘interloper’ who introduced a ‘deception’ that carried the woman away from the command of YHWH – who was this ‘deceiver’?

I hardly think the tiny tale of Adam and Eve in the Garden warrants being called an "epic".
The serpent in that tale is one of God's creatures and therefore placed in that position by God Himself. This creature is later more fully developed in Judaeo-Christian mythology to become Lucifer ("light bringer") or Satan. He then ends up in Islam as Shaitan. He is essentially God's own dark side, the aspect of God that He doesn't want us to acknowledge as His. Satan is the shadow cast by God's own self-delusion of perfection. Christ is the utmost crystallization of that self-delusion so it makes sense that the shadow cast by that insanity would appear to Christians as Satan, that is, that Allah would appear to Christians to be Satan. Which leaves one to wonder where Shaitan fits into all this. If he is the dark side of the dark side of God, maybe he's God in disguise?

[wizard]

I do not want to co-opt falsehood into truth. Monotheism is falsehood.

I think you and I are understanding monotheism differently. I'm simply taking it as "there is one god" while I think you're adding a lot of baggage that has been associated historically with Christianity and Islam in particular. (I'm not aware of ways in which Judaism has been a political or civilizational threat, at least not in recent times.)

You refer to the "alien" or transcendental aspect of the God of monotheism. However, since this God is a totality of all possibilities, it must - and indeed does - contain an intimate side or aspect as in the Koranic "closer to him than the jugular vein" idea (50:16) and Jesus' idea that "the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:21).

So the monotheistic God CAN indeed refer to a higher or larger "I" or Self AS WELL AS to a transcendental principle beyond or outside of our everyday experience.

You keep identifying monotheism with fascism but they are not or need not be the same thing. It's true that Islamists identify the two but many others within Islam do not. And you don't need any kind of theism at all to install a fascist rule over people as we can see from atheist-communist totalitarianism and the earlier Asian forms deriving from Confucianism and Shinto. Roman rule, at the height of the Empire, was fascistic and yet religious life was governed by an apparently tolerant polytheism so that conquered peoples could keep their own gods, or even add them to the existing pantheon, but politically they had to submit to Rome.

Fascism operates through a central idea or principle, be it a God (Islam) or an idea (communism) or just a city (Rome). It is evil because it coerces through force and punishment rather than through reason and persuasion. Science, for example, also operates through a central idea or principle: that there are universal laws that govern physical (and other) behaviour everywhere in the universe so that if you find a law here it will also apply there. However, science does not (so far) seek to impose its version of monotheism through brute force, only through the presentation and discussion of data and ideas.

Like you, I don't like fascism but I would not tar all monotheisms or all monotheistic styles of thinking with this particular brush.

I think we should discuss this important topic in another thread. There are more problem with monotheism than I have discussed here. I talked about fascism that is the ugly thing monotheism in a way deifies. The jesus of the gospel of John and the representations of him in many of the gnostic texts do not appear a monotheist. In some gnostic gospels he calls what appears to him the cosmic consciousness as "father" and its material manifestation as "mother". There is a mother goddess in the suppressed gospels. It appears he appreciates some kind of feminine divinity unlike he is presented in the official gospels.
I do not take people like rumi as monotheist. Look at the buddha quote i have given- he too talks about the other as self- that is not monotheism. Science as it grows is less and less mono. Quantum mechanics, fuzzy mathematics, set theory, fractal geometry, chaos theory are few examples. Number theory in mathematics is another rival to the 'mono'tonous totality. Even theists like levinas came against totality. Kierkegaard, Immanuel Kant, Recure are a few among the new genre of christian theists who came against mono. Chomskian linguistics is against mono. lacan in his psychoanalysis even rescued self from anything mono. Freud and Jung wrote classics refuting mono. There is some meaning in these protests against mono in all the fields. The recently popular 'posthumanism' is anti-mono. Ecology today is rich with anti-mono. Linguists vehemently argue against any 'mono' in semantics. Theorists of social constructionists, post-structuralists have condemned mono. mono is a dead ideology. Mono is a sterile lie. It is not fertile. It has no life. Never in nature there is absolute one. Everything is dynamic with its internal multiple. Nothing is sterile without its edge of voids. Everything is internally and externally dynamic, multiple. Anti-oneness is everywhere. It appears oneness is forbidded in our 'uni'verse. The one we call is a reductive metaphor. We just call the collective or the origin one for our convinced. If God is absolutely one, then he will not even be so much dynamic as he is presented in monotheism. There is multiple in the God presented in bible- the god of abraham, the god of moses, the god of Jesus, the god of paul and the god of st.john are different. jesus declares a change in god's position- in the new testament. Go anywhere in any science, any philosophy, any psychology- if you advance in the field you will not see a "one" underneath! The nature in every of its minuscule is anti-fascist. At every level nature protests any 'onenning'. Everything others. Even before bigbang the energy was nor a sterile one. The energy was ebbing with its internal vibrance to burst out. Blackholes too are vibrant dynamics of multiplicity. No where in nature or anything in the universe you see one. The One is our imagination. Not just a harmless imagination. See difference as difference. There you become more tolerant and more spiritual than in your imagination of unity... there is sublimity in the conceptualization of unity- but, with comproization Go one step ahead, then you see ebbing diversity and dynamics. You will see the bliss of non-onennable. Why to force oneness on non-ones?
The unity, uniqueness,singularity, replicablty etc. should be seen distinct from mono.

[CuteCoot]

Freud and Jung wrote classics refuting mono.

Modern Jungians actually criticize him for being too monotheistic in his idea of the integration of the personality and of individuation, a striving for wholeness. James Hillman is at the forefront of this criticism, preferring to see the psyche as the ancient Greeks saw divinity, as a multifaceted assemblage of personalities. Zeus, though, still has a place as representing a striving for unity or singular purpose or centralized governance (depending on the scenario or emphasis). In Hillman's schema monotheism is included as one of the possibilities within a polytheism.

Using the Greek model and letting Zeus stand for monotheism, I would envisage a happy banquet of the gods in which Zeus would have a place but not be alone. I don't think you'd allow him to be invited at all.

I guess we have strayed away from the topic.

[Oliver128]

You may recall that in the epic of Adam and Eve in the Garden of God there appeared a ‘newcomer’ an ‘interloper’ who introduced a ‘deception’ that carried the woman away from the command of YHWH – who was this ‘deceiver’?

I hardly think the tiny tale of Adam and Eve in the Garden warrants being called an "epic".
The serpent in that tale is one of God's creatures and therefore placed in that position by God Himself. This creature is later more fully developed in Judaeo-Christian mythology to become Lucifer ("light bringer") or Satan. He then ends up in Islam as Shaitan. He is essentially God's own dark side, the aspect of God that He doesn't want us to acknowledge as His. Satan is the shadow cast by God's own self-delusion of perfection. Christ is the utmost crystallization of that self-delusion so it makes sense that the shadow cast by that insanity would appear to Christians as Satan, that is, that Allah would appear to Christians to be Satan. Which leaves one to wonder where Shaitan fits into all this. If he is the dark side of the dark side of God, maybe he's God in disguise?

Thank you – dear CuteCoot – for your comments and opinions – I have edited my previous post, changing ‘epic’ to ‘tragic tale’ – I hope that meets with your approval.

You are correct in pointing out that the ‘interloper’ in the Garden is a creature of YHWH – but, could you give me your source explaining just how it entered (or was placed) into the Garden – personally, I fancy that it had to ask permission of YHWH to enter in and ‘tempt’ the woman through ‘deception’ – something similar to the scenario described in Job. The term ‘Lucifer’ is of Latin origination and only the Latin Vulgate and later translations that were based on the Latin Vulgate use the term – modern translations (starting in the late 1800’s to early 1900’s) use the following terms: day-star – shining-one – morning-star – shining-star. The word itself only appears ‘once’ in the entire Tanakh (Isa 14:12) and is actually just a honorific title ascribed to a Babylonian King – but in the verses following v.12 we find the same sort of language used in Eze 28 against the King of Tyre: How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, you who have weakened the nations! But you said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, and I will sit on the mount of assembly in the recesses of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ This leads me to believe that the same ‘deceiving’ entity that afflicted the King of Tyre was also afflicting the King of Babylon. They both had delusions of ‘godhood’.

While you are entitled to your opinions, YHWH does not have a ‘dark side’, on the contrary he dwells in unapproachable light (1Tim 6:16). YHWH is the Father of Light in whom there is no variation or shifting shadow (James 1:17).

But seeing as you are yourself ‘god’ – you would know best as to whether ‘your’ god has a ‘dark side’.

[wizard]

Freud and Jung wrote classics refuting mono.

Modern Jungians actually criticize him for being too monotheistic in his idea of the integration of the personality and of individuation, a striving for wholeness. James Hillman is at the forefront of this criticism, preferring to see the psyche as the ancient Greeks saw divinity, as a multifaceted assemblage of personalities. Zeus, though, still has a place as representing a striving for unity or singular purpose or centralized governance (depending on the scenario or emphasis). In Hillman's schema monotheism is included as one of the possibilities within a polytheism.

Using the Greek model and letting Zeus stand for monotheism, I would envisage a happy banquet of the gods in which Zeus would have a place but not be alone. I don't think you'd allow him to be invited at all.

I guess we have strayed away from the topic.

Thank you cutecoot.
It was nice to discuss with you. I do not find discussions here (in this forum) challenging. Of course there are some good members are here. It appears to me waste of time to discuss here because hardly there is any good results from the discussions. I think I should concentrate on my academics than to waste my time here. As i find it boring for the time being I take a leave. I may come back if I feel any good discussions needs my participation. Good bye for now.
Regards
Wizard

[CuteCoot]

It was nice to discuss with you.

Same here.
But I agree, this forum is not generally very interesting.
Good luck with your academic work,
Best wishes
CC

[paarsurrey]

Hi frineds

The Creator - God Allah YHWH; or whatever good names/attributes the people of any land may acribe to Him; He is the same.

[7:181] And to Allah alone belong all perfect attributes. So call on Him by these. And leave alone those who deviate from the right way with respect to His attributes. They shall be repaid for what they do.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh ... &verse=179

The name Allah is inclusive of all the good attributs/names of Him- the Creator.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

[Nicolei]

Proof that Allah of the Koran is not the same God as YHVH of the Bible.
Evidences from the Bible, the Koran and the hadiths

Note: all the Bible verses I quoted here were taken from the New International Version Bible (NIV) from this website http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/in ... 1#booklist
which also has other versions.

The Koran and hadiths are taken from the University of Southern California - Muslim society of America, University of Southern California website at
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
and
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/ respectively.

When God speaks, what he said are true and can be trusted and are important as it is already even when he does not swears or make an oath to emphasize the importance of what he had to say. . So when God swears or make an oath, what he swears is even more important. When God swears he is staking his personal reputation as Almighty God to assure humans that he means business. The way the God swears will reflect his nature and his character. Basically the evidences show that the manner that YHVH swears is different from the way Allah swears and so it reveals that the character of YHVH is fundamentally different from Allah and therefore they cannot be the same God.

Evidences from the Bible

and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, - Genesis 22:16

Here we see that the God of the Bible swearing by himself to Abraham.

But if you do not obey these commands, declares the LORD, I swear by myself that this palace will become a ruin.' " – Jeremiah 22:5

Here we see again that the God of the Bible swearing by himself.

Hebrews 6:13-16
The Certainty of God's Promise
13When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself, 14saying, "I will surely bless you and give you many descendants." 15And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised.
16Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument.

Here the Hebrews writer reiterated that since there was no one greater than the God of the Bible, the God of the Bible logically swore by himself when he made his promise to Abraham. Verse 16 gave the rationale that a person will swear by something or someone greater than him or herself.

Evidences from the Koran.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/053.qmt.html

053.001
YUSUFALI: By the Star when it goes down,-
PICKTHAL: By the Star when it setteth,
SHAKIR: I swear by the star when it goes down.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/056.qmt.html
056.075
YUSUFALI: Furthermore I call to witness the setting of the Stars,-
PICKTHAL: Nay, I swear by the places of the stars -
SHAKIR: But nay! I swear by the falling of stars;
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/074.qmt.html
074.032
YUSUFALI: Nay, verily: By the Moon,
PICKTHAL: Nay, by the Moon
SHAKIR: Nay; I swear by the moon,
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/091.qmt.html
091.001
YUSUFALI: By the Sun and his (glorious) splendour;
PICKTHAL: By the sun and his brightness,
SHAKIR: I swear by the sun and its brilliance,
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/090.qmt.html
090.001
YUSUFALI: I do call to witness this City;-
PICKTHAL: Nay, I swear by this city -
SHAKIR: Nay! I swear by this city.

From the above verses in the Koran we see that Allah does not swear by himself who is supposed to be the almighty creator and worthy of all honors. All of creation are to honor Allah who is the greatest. Instead Allah implied that the stars, the moon, and the sun are greater than Allah - the very things Allah are supposed to have created. He even swore by a man-made city!!!!

Since both claim to be the God of Abraham, and since they cannot be the same God, one of the have to be a fake.

In the real world the genuine will always exist before the fake. The last time I checked the Bible was compiled about six hundred years before the Koran was compiled. It does not take rocket science to see that Allah is a forgery - a good one too as it managed to fool even some Christians I know.

The proof is solid and Muslims cannot use the usual - "you have quoted the koran verses out of its context"; or "the translation in English is inaccurate"

It would be incredulous for Muslims to claim that the Bible verses which show YHVH swearing by himself or by his name are corrupted. On the contrary, if Allah is indeed the true god, it is the Koran which is corrupted for showing that Allah swore by the stars, moon, etc but not by himself.

More proofs from the hadiths

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamental ... l#021.3242

Book 21, Number 3242:
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Do not swear by your fathers, or by your mothers, or by rivals to Allah; and swear by Allah only, and swear by Allah only when you are speaking the truth.

Book 21, Number 3245:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar:
Sa'id ibn Ubaydah said: Ibn Umar heard a man swearing: No, I swear by the Ka'bah. Ibn Umar said to him: I heard the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say: He who swears by anyone but Allah is polytheist.

Book 21, Number 3247:
Narrated Buraydah ibn al-Hasib:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: He who swears by Amanah (faithfulness) is not one of our number.

Here Mohamed warned the Muslims that they are to swear by Allah and Allah alone. They are not to swear by their parents, the Kaaba, not even by their faith but by Allah alone. Mohamed said that he who swears by anyone but Allah is polytheist. .

Yet Allah did not swear by himself – instead Allah behaved like a polytheist.

Now not only Allah cannot be the same as the God of the Bible, Allah of the Koran have shown himself to be polytheist according to Mohamed!!!

[paarsurrey]

[b]Proof that Allah of the Koran is not the same God as YHVH of the Bible.

Hi friend Nicolei

I don't agree with you. I think you mean by Bible the New Testament of the Christians. The Jews of the Old Testament and Muslims do agree that Allah and YHWH is the same.

The Christian Bible in the Arabian countries also mentions of Allah very frequently in the New Testament. There is no difference, in my opinion.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

[Nicolei]

[b]Proof that Allah of the Koran is not the same God as YHVH of the Bible.

Hi friend Nicolei

I don't agree with you. I think you mean by Bible the New Testament of the Christians. The Jews of the Old Testament and Muslims do agree that Allah and YHWH is the same.

The Christian Bible in the Arabian countries also mentions of Allah very frequently in the New Testament. There is no difference, in my opinion.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Mr/Ma paarsurrey,

The Koran was compiled 600 years after the Bible (Old and New Testament) was compiled. So Please explain how could the Jews and the Christians during their times know anything about how Allah of the Koran swore to make an evaluation.

When Mohammed was alive, the Jews and Christians in Arabia did not even have the Koran as it was not compiled then. The Arab Christians and the Jews in Arabia when using Arabic language called their God "Allah" way before Mohammed was born. Just because Mohammed plagiarized the name does not make them the same God. In form (name) they are the same, but in substance/essence they are not the same.

There are Christians and Jews today who believe that YHVH and Allah are the same God and they are usually those who do not understand Islam very well or at least have not critically examined the Koran.There are also Christians and Jews who believe that they are not the same. Note differing opinions are not proofs or evidences of facts. You have been provided with irrefutable evidences from your Koran and hadiths that your Allah swore by the stars, moon sun and other created things and not a single time did Allah swore by himself.

Can you tell me why does Allah who implied his created things to be greater than himself can still be regarded as the true God.

Why did Mohammed commanded Muslims to swear only by Allah alone and yet Allah will not swear by himself but by the things that Muslims are commanded not to swear by?

Why did your Allah behave like an infidel by doing so?

YHVH of the Bible will only swear by himself because no one is greater than YHVH.

So again, based on the irrefutable evidence - tell me logically, how then can YHVH and Allah be the same God? Is your faith in Allah in the face of such simple and plain evidence really from the true God or is it from Satan?

Forged money always comes after the genuine note are in circulation - this is a law not a theory. Forged money will look like real money. Forged money are intentionally made to look like real money in order to deceive people. These are such simple facts from life. If the National bank tells you how to spot the difference between a real bank note from a counterfeit, isn't it incredibly stupid for you to insist that despite the differences, they are both genuine bank notes just because some people who are fooled said the same thing.

What would you think of a forger who gives you the forged money and tell that the reason for the differences is that his forged money has replaced the older bank note and the older bank note are "corrupted".He is unable to say exactly which part of older notes were corrupted but tells you that you are only to believe him and his national bank instead of questioning his authority. He goes on to say that before the older real bank note was printed by the government, there is an original copy of the bank note which is the "mother note" (Umm al -Kitab - mother of the Koran) and the forged version which replaced the corrupted version looks exactly the same as the "mother note".

Billions are deceived despite the plain and clear evidences - But here instead of money, you are dealing with your very own soul. You want to bet your soul with the billions deceived or do you want to place your bets on the evidence that says the true God will only swear by himself, because as the true God creator, nothing is greater than himself?

[paarsurrey]

There are Christians and Jews today who believe that YHVH and Allah are the same God

Hi friend Nicolei

So, I think generally the Jews and the Muslims agree that YHWH and Allah is the same Creator-God Allah YHWH. Since Jesus was never a Christian himself ; he was a Jew; so he won't dislike being a Servant of Allah.

You know this is mentioned in Quran; and Allah is a witness to it; He alone is sufficient as a witness.

Quran mentions certain attributes of the Creator-God Allah YHWH; that would define in detail the person of God Allah YHWH.

It is obvious that Muslims and Jews don't believe in the Trinity which was later invented by Paul/Church; it had nothing to do with Jesus.Trinity is a mistake of the Catholics and Protestants.

I love Jesus and Mary a mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

[expozIslam]

It is obvious that Muslims and Jews don't believe in the Trinity which was later invented by Paul/Church; it had nothing to do with Jesus.Trinity is a mistake of the Catholics and Protestants.

It is amazing how you muslims point out holes in others' religious beliefs but take offence when yours are pointed out. Bloody hypocrites!!

[Nicolei]

There are Christians and Jews today who believe that YHVH and Allah are the same God

Hi friend Nicolei

So, I think generally the Jews and the Muslims agree that YHWH and Allah is the same Creator-God Allah YHWH.

Muslims often accuse their critics that they quote Koran verses out of their context. It is obvious you are guilty of deliberately quoting me out of the context in order to avoid the reasonable questions I posed to you.

The context of what I said:

There are Christians and Jews today who believe that YHVH and Allah are the same God and they are usually those who do not understand Islam very well or at least have not critically examined the Koran.There are also Christians and Jews who believe that they are not the same. Note differing opinions are not proofs or evidences of facts. You have been provided with irrefutable evidences from your Koran and hadiths that your Allah swore by the stars, moon sun and other created things and not a single time did Allah swore by himself.

Since Jesus was never a Christian himself ; he was a Jew; so he won't dislike being a Servant of Allah.

Arabic was not the language of the Jews in Israel during Jesus time - so what's this Allah stuff? The word Jews used for God was Eloi or Elohim or Adonai (meaning Lord). It was very likely that out of fear of using YHVH name in vain Jews avoided using the name of YHVH and may use HaShem meaning "The Name".

You know this is mentioned in Quran; and Allah is a witness to it; He alone is sufficient as a witness.

If Allah alone was sufficient as a witness, why did not Allah swear by himself at all, but by created things. In swearing by those things Allah is actually calling those things to be his witness.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/090.qmt.html
090.001
YUSUFALI: I do call to witness this City;-
PICKTHAL: Nay, I swear by this city -
SHAKIR: Nay! I swear by this city.

Quran mentions certain attributes of the Creator-God Allah YHWH; that would define in detail the person of God Allah YHWH.

Forged money are meant to look like real money. Yes there are are attributes of Allah that are similar to that of YHVH, but having some similarities does not necessary means that they are the same person. Physically all humans have a lot of similarities, but it is quite obvious that each one is different from another. YHVH swore only by himself because no one is greater than YHVH. However Allah of the Koran swore by created things instead of himself and thereby implied that Allah is not greater than the things he swore by. Soooo, therefore, isn't it crystal clear that despite the similarities, how can Allah be the same as YHVH let alone be the true god?

It is obvious that Muslims and Jews don't believe in the Trinity which was later invented by Paul/Church; it had nothing to do with Jesus.Trinity is a mistake of the Catholics and Protestants.

The English translated the Jewish name for God YHVH as "I AM" (Tetragrammaton)

God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' - Exodus 3:14

Jesus used "YHVH" to refer to himself and this angered the Jews because they knew that he claimed to be God himself by doing so,

John chapter 8
57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. - John 8:57-58

John chapter 10
31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
John 10:31-33

Isaiah prophesied that a baby will be born one day and he will be called Mighty God.

Isaiah chapter 9
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

I love Jesus and Mary a mentioned in Quran.
Thanks

Here's a challenge to you paarsurrey, if you can show me today a real Christian who believes that Mary rather than the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity, I will become a Muslim. No Christian if he/she is really a Christian will even think for a moment that Mary is part of the Trinity. Nowhere in Paul's letters that form part of the New Testament did Paul even hint this. On the contrary as you pointed out, Paul always referred to God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, never Mary.

So how can Allah be the true God if Allah does not even know that Christians had never believed that Mary was part of the Trinity?

005.116
YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
PICKTHAL: And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?
SHAKIR: And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.

[paarsurrey]

Here's a challenge to you paarsurrey, if you can show me today a real Christian who believes that Mary rather than the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity, I will become a Muslim. No Christian if he/she is really a Christian will even think for a moment that Mary is part of the Trinity.

Hi friend Nicolei

If you put a challenge to me just to win from me; I accept that you are a winner, if that satisfies you and pleases you. I know that there is no true follower of Jesus in the "Christians"; this nomenclature is used by the followers of Paul, only in name; not in reality. Jesus' true and real followers in these times are the Ahmadis who believe in the advent of the Promised Messiah 1835-1908 who is a successor of Muhammad in the latter days.

A few days ago I was sitting in a Metropolitan United Church; the Church was declare open by the management on Tuesday from 12.00 noon to 3.00 PM. I was sitting with an old Christian who registered the visitors; occasionally some would visit. An old woman with his son visited the Church and liked the more than 150 years old church. While going out they thanked the old man; who asked them if they had any questions to ask. The boy about 30 years of age said; just tell us what is the difference between a Catholic and the United Church.

The old man replied; the Catholics pray to Mary while they don't.

I think perhaps that answers your question also.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks