Islam vs. Christianity

Debate how Islam compares to other faiths and religions.
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Natassia
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by Natassia »

yeezevee wrote:
Nevertheless, main focus should be on "God is not a man," period.
fudgy ends his word with a "PERIOD" as if he knows what "God" is.,

You too don't know what God is Fudgy. the fact believers use the word "HE" for God itself is stupid and it gets in to that brain right from the birth of a baby, she/he always sees That God being "He" with dick. So we got to change these DICK heads before we talk what actually "God" is..

yeezevee
Very true, yeezevee. It would be more accurate to use the word "It" rather than "He" but It tends to sound so demeaning, don't you think? Humans are so limited in their thinking that everything that is alive and has a brain must be assigned a gender. I feel so bad for those people who are born inter-sexed. God forbid we can't fit them into our little boxes of "male" and "female."
“The kind of power mothers have is enormous. Take the skyline of Istanbul - enormous breasts, pathetic little willies, a final revenge on Islam. I was so scared I had to crouch in the bottom of the boat when I saw it.” ~Angela Carter

fudgy
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by fudgy »

YZV you are not qualified to discuss Islam or Christianity. Quran also uses "We" "Us" to point out that God cannot be conceived by a gender.

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debunker
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by debunker »

@ natassia

tomorrow I'll address this last post of yours... I really gotta go to sleep now...

PS. I like your enthusiasm defending the Bible with a wall of Bubbles... and I like bursting these bubbles one by one... :)
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debunker
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by debunker »

@ natassia
Very true, yeezevee. It would be more accurate to use the word "It" rather than "He" but It tends to sound so demeaning, don't you think? Humans are so limited in their thinking that everything that is alive and has a brain must be assigned a gender. I feel so bad for those people who are born inter-sexed. God forbid we can't fit them into our little boxes of "male" and "female."
really? what about languages which don't have "it"? Arabic, French for example...
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Natassia
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by Natassia »

debunker wrote:@ natassia
Very true, yeezevee. It would be more accurate to use the word "It" rather than "He" but It tends to sound so demeaning, don't you think? Humans are so limited in their thinking that everything that is alive and has a brain must be assigned a gender. I feel so bad for those people who are born inter-sexed. God forbid we can't fit them into our little boxes of "male" and "female."
really? what about languages which don't have "it"? Arabic, French for example...
Well, it sounds to me like the Arabs and the French are even more limited in their thinking. :D
“The kind of power mothers have is enormous. Take the skyline of Istanbul - enormous breasts, pathetic little willies, a final revenge on Islam. I was so scared I had to crouch in the bottom of the boat when I saw it.” ~Angela Carter

Natassia
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by Natassia »

fudgy wrote:All right you cannot sin on purpose. However, the question was that since Jesus died for all of your sins if someone does sin on purpose it should be forgiven. For example, in that sense the people who crucified him are also forgiven. Jesus rebuked those who has killed the prophets in the past, he is not gonna turn around all of a sudden and forgive those who killed him. It doesn't make much sense to me. To accept that Jesus has died for your sins is to forgive those who crucified him. Sry but a Muslim mind does not work like that.
Actually, the real question is this: If a person is purposefully sinning, do they really have faith in Jesus Christ?

I understand that a "Muslim mind" doesn't work like that. The idea of loving your enemies and praying for those who persecute you is completely confounding.
fudgy wrote:Totally a false analogy. If I go to a battle to save my loved ones I would kill those people--not let them crucify me on a cross. "300" is a science fiction thriller, in reality it would result in a total disaster to fight against say even 3000 men. To die for the sins of billions of people is to carry their burden on his shoulder. Sry but I do not believe that Jesus was that cursed.
I knew it would go over your head. I just took exception to your choice of words "suicide mission." Let's try another example...

A child is in the middle of the road and a bus is coming. I know that if I run fast enough I will be able to push the child out of the way of the oncoming vehicle; however, I myself will be hit.

So...am I going to sacrifice my life to save that child? Jesus would never have hesitated. In fact, he sacrificed his life for anyone willing to believe in it.
fudgy wrote:Or calling out for "Father." "Father, Father why have you forsaken me"? That is called panicking and most importantly does not sound like someone offering himself for sins of mankind.
Let's take a look at what he said, shall we?

"I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

"Dear woman [Mary] here is your son [the disciple John]"..."Here is your mother."

"Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

"It is finished."

"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."

Wow....really panic-stricken, don't you think?

Anyway, the closest verse you could say is panicking would be the Eloi, Eloi one. This is a verse out of Psalms (and we know that Jesus did quote from the book of Psalms during his ministry.) Have you ever read Psalm 22? Please do so: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=31;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

fudgy wrote:Yes, God is not a man that he should do such things. Bottom line God is not a man nor a Son of a Man. You claim that Jesus who is a God and is also was a man and also was a Son of a Man. "Changing mind" should not be taken literally. However, yes NT does show Jesus changing his mind. One incident would be how one woman came to heal her daughter of "evil spirits" and at first Jesus was hesitant since she was "dog of the Jews" but later on agreed to heal her daughter after the women responded properly. Nevertheless, main focus should be on "God is not a man," period.
The only flaw in your reasoning is this...the verse you are relying so heavily on is in Numbers which is a book in the Torah. The Torah was written by Moses back in 1445 BC or so. Jesus wasn't born yet.

Oh good grief, not the "dog" story again. I love how Muslims get all worked up about that story (which they never consider within its historical and spiritual context); however it is quite alright that people like me are the "worst of creatures." [Quran 8:22, 8:55, 98:6] That would make me equal to a pig or something, wouldn't it? Hell, I'd rather be a little dog than a pig.
“The kind of power mothers have is enormous. Take the skyline of Istanbul - enormous breasts, pathetic little willies, a final revenge on Islam. I was so scared I had to crouch in the bottom of the boat when I saw it.” ~Angela Carter

yeezevee
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by yeezevee »

YZV you are not qualified to discuss Islam or Christianity. Quran also uses "We" "Us" to point out that God cannot be conceived by a gender.

Who cares what Q'uran uses? Q'uran also uses meaningless words, so what? here read it
Ta Seen Meem.[Al Quran ; 28:1]

Ta Seen, [Al Quran ; 27:1]

Ta Seen Meem [Al Quran ; 26:1]

Ta Ha. [Al Quran ; 20:1]

Kaf Ha Ya Ein Sad. [Al Quran ; 19:1]

Alif Lam Ra. [Al Quran ; 15:1]

Alif Lam Ra. [Al Quran ; 14:1]

Alif, Lam, Mim, Ra. [Al Quran ; 13:1]

Alif Lam Ra.[Al Quran ; 12:1]

Alif Lam Ra.[Al Quran ; 11:1]

Alif Lam Ra.[Al Quran ; 10:1]

Alif Lam Meem Sad.[Al Quran ; 7:1]

Alif Lam Meem.[Al Quran ; 3:1]

Alif Lam Meem.[Al Quran ; 2:1]
indeed These are the signs of the Book of wisdom book.,
You can add some sounds of DOGS, cats and other animals to it. and say it is BOOK OF WISDOM. How does it matter??

If God is Genderless then use some word that is Genderless., Fudgy., A simple thing to do is define "GOD as a concept" or as Principle or collective Principles that drive Humanity.. Species.. or universe whatever., CALLING GOD as "HE" is the most stupidest Invention of Man..

yeezevee.

fudgy
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by fudgy »

Natassia wrote:Actually, the real question is this: If a person is purposefully sinning, do they really have faith in Jesus Christ?

I understand that a "Muslim mind" doesn't work like that. The idea of loving your enemies and praying for those who persecute you is completely confounding.
So you would love a rapist? Sry, but we aren't that kind.
Natassia wrote:I knew it would go over your head. I just took exception to your choice of words "suicide mission." Let's try another example...

A child is in the middle of the road and a bus is coming. I know that if I run fast enough I will be able to push the child out of the way of the oncoming vehicle; however, I myself will be hit.

So...am I going to sacrifice my life to save that child? Jesus would never have hesitated. In fact, he sacrificed his life for anyone willing to believe in it.
Again with your false analogies. Jesus could very well stop the bus without trying to get himself get killed. Lets turn your analogy around. Suppose instead of a child that person is a rapist or a murderer who just hurt one of your family member. You telling me that you will jump to save that person? So you will sacrifice your life for a rapist and a murder who can go around hurt people around after you saved him? God doesn't need to do any of that stuff to save someone. And beside your God couldn't even save himself how is he going to save me?
Natassia wrote: Let's take a look at what he said, shall we?

"I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

"Dear woman [Mary] here is your son [the disciple John]"..."Here is your mother."

"Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

"It is finished."

"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."

Wow....really panic-stricken, don't you think?

Anyway, the closest verse you could say is panicking would be the Eloi, Eloi one. This is a verse out of Psalms (and we know that Jesus did quote from the book of Psalms during his ministry.) Have you ever read Psalm 22? Please do so: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... ersion=31;
Yes this is called panicking. Connecting it with Psalms 22 makes your case even worse because it shows that Jesus wanted God to save him from this mess. It totally destroys your confusion that Jesus wanted to die for you; if he did why would he cry to God to save him? And yes Allah never forsaken Jesus. You Christians are just good for talk but when it comes to action you guys are useless.

Natassia wrote:The only flaw in your reasoning is this...the verse you are relying so heavily on is in Numbers which is a book in the Torah. The Torah was written by Moses back in 1445 BC or so. Jesus wasn't born yet.

Oh good grief, not the "dog" story again. I love how Muslims get all worked up about that story (which they never consider within its historical and spiritual context); however it is quite alright that people like me are the "worst of creatures." [Quran 8:22, 8:55, 98:6] That would make me equal to a pig or something, wouldn't it? Hell, I'd rather be a little dog than a pig.
What exactly is your point that Jesus wasn't born yet. If Jesus is God he should not be born...thats what that verse means "nor is he son of a man." But I know what you gonna say now lol. The point was that Jesus changed his mind too. Jesus being God and dying for your sins is a confusion from Paul.

Natassia
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by Natassia »

fudgy wrote:YZV you are not qualified to discuss Islam or Christianity. Quran also uses "We" "Us" to point out that God cannot be conceived by a gender.
002.020
YUSUFALI: The lightning all but snatches away their sight; every time the light (Helps) them, they walk therein, and when the darkness grows on them, they stand still. And if Allah willed, He could take away their faculty of hearing and seeing; for Allah hath power over all things.

Looks like Allah is a male. :D
“The kind of power mothers have is enormous. Take the skyline of Istanbul - enormous breasts, pathetic little willies, a final revenge on Islam. I was so scared I had to crouch in the bottom of the boat when I saw it.” ~Angela Carter

Natassia
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by Natassia »

fudgy wrote:So you would love a rapist? Sry, but we aren't that kind.
Would I love a rapist? What if my son was a rapist? Would I suddenly stop loving him because of his sins against humanity?

Love does not mean injustice. You commit a crime, you pay the consequences of it. Christians are also commanded to submit to their governmental authority and to follow the law.
fudgy wrote:Again with your false analogies. Jesus could very well stop the bus without trying to get himself get killed.
And what if the bus is Justice?
fudgy wrote:Lets turn your analogy around. Suppose instead of a child that person is a rapist or a murderer who just hurt one of your family member. You telling me that you will jump to save that person? So you will sacrifice your life for a rapist and a murder who can go around hurt people around after you saved him? God doesn't need to do any of that stuff to save someone. And beside your God couldn't even save himself how is he going to save me?
The bus is Justice. And Justice demands that "the wages of sin is death." [Romans 6:23] So, if the child is an unrepentant rapist he has two choices: Repent and believe that Jesus will save him or Attempt to save himself. The latter will only end in failure, but Jesus won't force the rapist to choose either option.
fudgy wrote:Yes this is called panicking. Connecting it with Psalms 22 makes your case even worse because it shows that Jesus wanted God to save him from this mess. It totally destroys your confusion that Jesus wanted to die for you; if he did why would he cry to God to save him? And yes Allah never forsaken Jesus. You Christians are just good for talk but when it comes to action you guys are useless.
I think it was expressing the deep anguish the author of Psalms 22 was feeling. Jesus was fully man, fudgy. Are you asking him not to feel anguish at separation from the Father as well as physical torment thanks to the tortuous method of crucifixion? Don't you think it was possible that Jesus was crying out to God the Father to save him from the pits of hell?

Remember, Jesus was to be a sign unto the world just as Jonah was a sign unto the Ninevites:

Jonah 2 NIV
From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the LORD his God. He said:
"In my distress I called to the LORD,
and he answered me.
From the depths of the grave I called for help,
and you listened to my cry.
You hurled me into the deep,
into the very heart of the seas,
and the currents swirled about me;
all your waves and breakers
swept over me.
I said, 'I have been banished
from your sight;
yet I will look again
toward your holy temple.'
The engulfing waters threatened me,
the deep surrounded me;
seaweed was wrapped around my head.
To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
the earth beneath barred me in forever.
But you brought my life up from the pit,
O LORD my God.
"When my life was ebbing away,
I remembered you, LORD,
and my prayer rose to you,
to your holy temple.
"Those who cling to worthless idols
forfeit the grace that could be theirs.
But I, with a song of thanksgiving,
will sacrifice to you.
What I have vowed I will make good.
Salvation comes from the LORD."
And the LORD commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.


And also, don't forget that Psalm 110 as well as Isaiah 52:13-15 and Isaiah 53 all relate to the Messiah.
fudgy wrote: What exactly is your point that Jesus wasn't born yet. If Jesus is God he should not be born...thats what that verse means "nor is he son of a man." But I know what you gonna say now lol. The point was that Jesus changed his mind too. Jesus being God and dying for your sins is a confusion from Paul.
Jesus the man was not born yet. Jesus the Word of God has always existed. His spirit is eternal...unlike yours or mine.
Jesus being God and dying for your sins is a confusion from Paul
Hardly.

"...just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:28 NIV)

"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Mark 10:45 NIV)

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"

They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."
(Matthew 16:13-17 NIV)

When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false."

"How do you know me?" Nathanael asked.

Jesus answered, "I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you."

Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel."

Jesus said, "You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You shall see greater things than that." He then added, "I tell you the truth, you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."
(John 1:47-51 NIV)

...Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
(John 10:32-33 NIV)

...The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."

"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
(Matthew 26:63-64 NIV)

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matthew 28:16-20 NIV)

And should you like to read about "the Son of Man":

Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand, the son of man you have raised up for yourself. (Psalm 80:17 NIV)

In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14 NIV)

Don't worry, fudgy. Just claim these scriptures are fabricated. That's what most other Muslims do.
“The kind of power mothers have is enormous. Take the skyline of Istanbul - enormous breasts, pathetic little willies, a final revenge on Islam. I was so scared I had to crouch in the bottom of the boat when I saw it.” ~Angela Carter

Wootah
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by Wootah »

Debunker wrote:So, it's ALL written! the Father has already decided which of us are to believe in Him and those who are to reject Him. Please note: He, not only knew, He decided for us even before our birth!

So you see Natassia, the Father had already loved you even before you were born and and He had already hated me even before I was born... that's why you're a Christian and I am not.
Debunker, does Allah know in advance who will be in paradise or not?

paarsurrey
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by paarsurrey »

Jesus being God and dying for your sins is a confusion from Paul
Hi friends

I agree with the above; it is made in Rome and invented there by Paul; it is not made in Jerusalem and by Jesus.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

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paarsurrey
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by paarsurrey »

Natassia wrote: Love does not mean injustice.
Hi friend Natassia

The Christian mythology of God the Father; killing his own son depicts neither love nor justice. How many Christians would kill their sons and daughters for the sins of the men in the street. None , I think.

This concept is totally a myth and irrational invented at Rome by Paul; it is not made in Jerusalem by Jesus.

I think my Atheists Agnostic friends would support my principled stance out of their free will.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

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paarsurrey
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Atonement- A myth created at Rome by Paul

Post by paarsurrey »

Hi friends

Paul and Church state that:

1. Every human being is a sinner; not only after adulthood but from the birth even as a child; the incorrect reason they give is that
2. Adam and Even sinned as per the Torah; so it is hereditary with the children of Adam and hence every human being is a sinner.
3. God is justice; and since he is merciful also He cannot forgive without a sacrifice in exchange; hence as a second person (of trinity) He had to come in flesh ( this he did , nobody know of himself or on the order of God the Father, as all the persons of Trinity are thought to be equal).

The above concept is basically mythical and not rational. Eve was more sinner (like 200%) than Adam (like 100%) as per Genesis of Torah as Eve ate the fruit first and then enticed Adam. Hence under this logic Jesus who is born of a woman, is more sinful (like 200%) than the one who is born from a man and woman (mathematically say 150 %).

Quran does not support it. Every human being is innocent by birth till he achieves maturity and commits sins.

I think the Atheists Agnostics cannot support this illogical and mythical concept of the Christian; just out of their free will.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

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Wootah
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by Wootah »

Paarsurrey,
1. Every human being is a sinner; not only after adulthood but from the birth even as a child; the incorrect reason they give is that
2. Adam and Even sinned as per the Torah; so it is hereditary with the children of Adam and hence every human being is a sinner.
Actually I am not even sure on the Christian doctrine here. Do you have a link to verify your summary of Christianity? I say that because I don't think a Christian has to believe that all newborns are born sinners. I would say however that it probably doesn't take long. Ask parents about how soon they think they know when their children are misbehaving and you will get surprised.

The concept of original sin reflects to me that we would of sinned like Adam and Eve did anyway.
3. God is justice; and since he is merciful also He cannot forgive without a sacrifice in exchange; hence as a second person (of trinity) He had to come in flesh ( this he did , nobody know of himself or on the order of God the Father, as all the persons of Trinity are thought to be equal).
Hey you do understand the issue. I wasn't so sure in the contradiction thread that you did.
The above concept is basically mythical and not rational. Eve was more sinner (like 200%) than Adam (like 100%) as per Genesis of Torah as Eve ate the fruit first and then enticed Adam. Hence under this logic Jesus who is born of a woman, is more sinful (like 200%) than the one who is born from a man and woman (mathematically say 150 %).
While you might not understand percentages too well, in terms of something being full or empty, it is considered full at 100%. Being sinful is more or less binary, you are sinful or not, 0% = sinless, 100% = sinful.

paarsurrey
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by paarsurrey »

Wootah wrote: I say that because I don't think a Christian has to believe that all newborns are born sinners.
Hi friend Wootah

Unfortunately it is true. The faulty Christian mythology says that sin is hereditary; so all persons whatever their age or state of normalcy, they are sinners, the Church believes it.

Jesus never believed in it that is why he selected Adam for his fatherhood and said that he was Son of Adam; Adam repented and asked forgiveness from the Creator- God Allah YHWH and was forgiven. Adam was an innocent man as per Jesus saying that he was Son of Adam; very simple.

But the present day Christians ; only believe what the cunning Paul and the Church says; they don't subscribe to the concepts of Jesus or Mary.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

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Wootah
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by Wootah »

Unfortunately it is true. The faulty Christian mythology says that sin is hereditary; so all persons whatever their age or state of normalcy, they are sinners, the Church believes it.
Paarsurrey I think most Christians would argue that if a baby died they would go to Heaven. This is because they would not have had the opportunity to sin and to reject God. Now as we get older we see children lie and make sinful choices, so I am not against believing that we embrace our sinful natures early in life. I think you have closed your mind on this issue if you think your version is Christian dogma.

Jesus never believed in it that is why he selected Adam for his fatherhood and said that he was Son of Adam; Adam repented and asked forgiveness from the Creator- God Allah YHWH and was forgiven. Adam was an innocent man as per Jesus saying that he was Son of Adam; very simple.
But the present day Christians ; only believe what the cunning Paul and the Church says; they don't subscribe to the concepts of Jesus or Mary.

Ahh I see it now! Paul's cunning plan to be matyred and die for a hoax. As opposed to the cunning plan of Mohammed who used religion and war to build an empire.

Paarsurrey I started a thread for you: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=5007" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

paarsurrey
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Jesus never believed in the hereditary sin though

Post by paarsurrey »

Wootah wrote:
Unfortunately it is true. The faulty Christian mythology says that sin is hereditary; so all persons whatever their age or state of normalcy, they are sinners, the Church believes it.
Paarsurrey I think most Christians would argue that if a baby died they would go to Heaven. This is because they would not have had the opportunity to sin and to reject God.
Hi friends

But that is not what the Christians believe. You have many hidden Christians and ex-Christians here in this forum who are collaborators with the Atheists Agnostics; please ask this question to them. They believe that even a one day child is sinful as he/she has inherited sin from his/her father and mother.

Jesus never believed in this wrong belief.

The Atheists Agnostic here won't speak against them for their own designs.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

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HomerJay
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by HomerJay »

Unfortunately it is true. The faulty Christian mythology says that sin is hereditary; so all persons whatever their age or state of normalcy, they are sinners, the Church believes it.
I was raised in private Catholic schools and unfortunately I have to agree with that. It never made any sense to me that an infant should inherit the "sins of the father". Almost certainly a doctrine created by the early Church to mandate Baptism and protect its hegemony. It's not the only Christian doctrine I have since come to disregard, others like clerical celibacy (created to prevent priests from willing goods and lands to their children, no doubt) I feel need to be thrown out with the dirty bath water and not - as Debunker would propose - along with the baby.

PS. I find it VERY difficult to believe that Debunker is actually a Muslim. I can see lambasting Christianity were one a Tibetan monk or Ghandi clone, but a follower of Mohammed being offended by OT violence and barbarity is a little like Ghengis Khan swearing off ice hockey because of the bloodshed.

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diotima64
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by diotima64 »

HomerJay wrote:
Unfortunately it is true. The faulty Christian mythology says that sin is hereditary; so all persons whatever their age or state of normalcy, they are sinners, the Church believes it.
I was raised in private Catholic schools and unfortunately I have to agree with that. It never made any sense to me that an infant should inherit the "sins of the father". Almost certainly a doctrine created by the early Church to mandate Baptism and protect its hegemony. It's not the only Christian doctrine I have since come to disregard, others like clerical celibacy (created to prevent priests from willing goods and lands to their children, no doubt) I feel need to be thrown out with the dirty bath water and not - as Debunker would propose - along with the baby.

PS. I find it VERY difficult to believe that Debunker is actually a Muslim. I can see lambasting Christianity were one a Tibetan monk or Ghandi clone, but a follower of Mohammed being offended by OT violence and barbarity is a little like Ghengis Khan swearing off ice hockey because of the bloodshed.
Obviously, you didn´t listen carefully to what your oh-so-catholic teachers told you about original sin. Neither has it anything to do with the OT "the sins of our fathers", nor is it anything like personal sin. We are born with the PROPENSITY to sin - not in a state of natural grace. OF COURSE we are born without personal sin. It also is the most obviously TRUE christian dogma.
Original sin is the privation of sanctifying grace in consequence of the sin of Adam. This solution, which is that of St. Thomas, goes back to St. Anselm and even to the traditions of the early Church, as we see by the declaration of the Second Council of Orange (A.D. 529): one man has transmitted to the whole human race not only the death of the body, which is the punishment of sin, but even sin itself, which is the death of the soul [Denz., n. 175 (145)]. As death is the privation of the principle of life, the death of the soul is the privation of sanctifying grace which according to all theologians is the principle of supernatural life. Therefore, if original sin is "the death of the soul", it is the privation of sanctifying grace.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Man, those so-called catholics who know NOTHING of their professed religion really piss me off. :nono:

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