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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:40 pm
by paarsurrey
HomerJay wrote:parrsurrey:
The Christians have been trying to improve upon the Theology invented by clever Paul at Rome and subsequently followed by the sinful Church;
The trick is to try to separate the wheat from the chaff in texts
and traditions that may have have gone through the hands of self-serving or incompetent people.
Hi friend/s

I am doing the same thing as you have said; separating wheat from the chaff. Paul was never a disciple of Jesus. Jesus never mentioned his name to his disciples; he never trained him. When Jesus escaped from the cursed death on the Cross and was heading towards the lost sheep of the Israel residing in India and neighboring countries; this enemy of Jesus became a wolf in the sheep's clothing, as Jesus had warned. Church followed Paul's line and made the things just opposite of what Jesus believed in.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:58 am
by Trojan
paarsurrey wrote: Hi friend/s

I am doing the same thing as you have said; separating wheat from the chaff. Paul was never a disciple of Jesus. Jesus never mentioned his name to his disciples; he never trained him. When Jesus escaped from the cursed death on the Cross and was heading towards the lost sheep of the Israel residing in India and neighboring countries; this enemy of Jesus became a wolf in the sheep's clothing, as Jesus had warned. Church followed Paul's line and made the things just opposite of what Jesus believed in.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
Oh no here we go again with para's favourite past time - Paul bashing...
Please reserve your superficial, unfounded, mythical legends of Jesus travelling to India for the gullible. This stupid theory goes against even what the plagerized koran teaches.

FYI, Jesus when he mentioned "sheep in wolves clothing" was refering to fake prophets like the prophet Mohammed and your Medhi, who corrupted his pure message of humanitarian love and replaced it with hate towards unbelivers.
Read Paul's letters and epistles, they are far superior to anything your allah a.k.a Mohammed or the fake Medhi could ever come up with.

Here is a CHALLANGE for you. Let us see if you can come up with anything in the koran that is superior to this verse from Paul's letters that promotes love towards even ones enemy. If you can't then you have proved not only to others but also to yourself that your Allah, A.K.A Mohammed was an imposter.
If you open your blinded eyes you will see that Paul's teachings are right up there with Jesus', whereas Mohammed's hate message towards unbelievers in the koran is the opposite of what Jesus taught.
Romans 12:
14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[c] Do not be conceited.
17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d]says the Lord. 20On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."[e] 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Here is your CHALLANGE instead of picking on Paul, here is your chance to prove that your allah was the acual divine being, and not Mohammed and his evil nature - " The wolf in sheep's clothinng" that Jesus spoke of.

Cheers!

Jesus warned about Paul a false Prophet

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:29 pm
by paarsurrey
Trojan wrote: Paul's letters that promotes love towards even ones enemy.
Hi friend/s

This is the part of Paul about which Jesus had clearly warned:

Matthew 7:15

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

I leave it to you if you want to be with Paul- the wolf in the sheep's clothing and don't want to heed to the Jesus' very clear warning; it is your own free will. I would like you to be with Jesus and not Paul.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Re: Jesus warned about Paul a false Prophet

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:00 am
by Trojan
paarsurrey wrote:
Trojan wrote: Paul's letters that promotes love towards even ones enemy.
Hi friend/s

This is the part of Paul about which Jesus had clearly warned:

Matthew 7:15

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

I leave it to you if you want to be with Paul- the wolf in the sheep's clothing and don't want to heed to the Jesus' very clear warning; it is your own free will. I would like you to be with Jesus and not Paul.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
Hypocrite! if you think the whole of the NT is Paul's invention, then what right do you have to quote Jesus' warning from it?
Is that not circular reasoning.
I guess you could not present anything from the koran that is vaugely equivalent, let alone superior to even one of Paul's teachings.... can you?
In reality the koran has nothing of any real value to humanity, but hate and rebellion against ones unbelieving neighbours. Do you disagree with this or can you at least present one verse from the koran that promotes brotherly love towards all people. This is your CHALLANGE . If you cannot then you have proved to your self that Mohammed and his hate message from allah are the actual wolves that are out in sheep's clothing fooling the gullible all over the world today.

Cheers!

Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 7:48 pm
by paarsurrey
sorry duplicate post

Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:53 pm
by Wootah
Debunker, I was following you and Woland and couldn't help but click on one of the links in your signature....

You mention Matthew 11:20-25 but I don't see any predestination concept here. Jesus is remarking how wise God is to reveal his truth to children and the innocent and keep it from the haughty and proud. I would suggest that Jesus means that it is the individual's state of mind that prevents access to the knowledge rather than God. If we change from 'wise and learned' to 'little children' what is hidden is revealed. This implies that we can change as well otherwise how can we become like children again. Hmm, I never thought of that, we start as children in life and are urged by Jesus to become like children again, that would definitely imply choice and not pre-destination.
Does the verse still reek of predestiny in this light?

Mark 4:10-12. In Mark 4 Jesus tells a story to the crowd. Then in verse 10-12 Jesus is alone with the disciples and explains to them why he talks in parables. Jesus uses parables to mask his real purpose from those that are not interested in listening. You should realise that it is highly likely that the apostles would of shared the meaning of the parable to anyone that followed Jesus. Everyone that heard the parable and wanted the parable explained would of been given the explanation. This article suggests that the parables were also a form of mercy as if he was clearer and people still rejected him then they would be condemned even worse as result. I do not see why there is any predestination involved, I am reasonably certain all parables are explained and as such those that want to learn more can get the answers and those that don't want them explained are left bemused as if something important was said but they aren't quite sure what. I am not sure how the use of parables suggests predestination because I am fairly confident that anyone that asked would of had the parable explained.

Personally I think you are misreading Romans 9:8-23. This is my explanation of the passage. Often times, and this passage discusses Moses but Job comes to mind for me, often times, God replies to people that question him, "Who are you too question me? I can do what the hell I like, I am the potter and you are clay!" I never view those replies as the truth regarding our ability to choose, rather I view those replies of God as the truth of the situation vis-a-vis our relationship to him. 14-21 are basically God replying in this vein. The purpose of 14-21 is to contrast the truth in 14-21 with how God does related to us in 22-26. In 22-26 instead of showing his righteous wrath he shows great patience. Why would God need to be patient? Because he allows us to choose and some will choose wisely and others poorly and his plan will work itself out in the end but not as fast as he would of wanted because he waits and let's us decide. What do you think of this reply? Why would 22 say "bore with great patience the object of his wrath"? If our destiny was predetermined why would God wait?

Re: Jesus warned about Paul a false Prophet

Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:12 pm
by paarsurrey
Trojan wrote:if you think the whole of the NT is Paul's invention, then what right do you have to quote Jesus' warning from it?
Hi friend Trojan

The cunning people like Paul was; they put things of their benefit in the already prevalent writings. This is what Paul and the Church did; they adopted already existing anonymous writings and changed them to serve their purpose. It is not difficult to ascertain Jesus' true teachings from the wrongs changed by Paul and the Church.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Re: Jesus warned about Paul a false Prophet

Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:48 pm
by Wootah
paarsurrey wrote:
Trojan wrote:if you think the whole of the NT is Paul's invention, then what right do you have to quote Jesus' warning from it?
Hi friend Trojan

The cunning people like Paul was; they put things of their benefit in the already prevalent writings. This is what Paul and the Church did; they adopted already existing anonymous writings and changed them to serve their purpose. It is not difficult to ascertain Jesus' true teachings from the wrongs changed by Paul and the Church.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
Thank Allah we have Paarsurrey to correct us all on the right path ..... to India :tongueout:

Re: Jesus warned about Paul a false Prophet

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:29 am
by ISLAMISTRUTH
Trojan wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:
Trojan wrote: Paul's letters that promotes love towards even ones enemy.
Hi friend/s

This is the part of Paul about which Jesus had clearly warned:

Matthew 7:15

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

I leave it to you if you want to be with Paul- the wolf in the sheep's clothing and don't want to heed to the Jesus' very clear warning; it is your own free will. I would like you to be with Jesus and not Paul.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
Hypocrite! if you think the whole of the NT is Paul's invention, then what right do you have to quote Jesus' warning from it?
Is that not circular reasoning.
I guess you could not present anything from the koran that is vaugely equivalent, let alone superior to even one of Paul's teachings.... can you?
In reality the koran has nothing of any real value to humanity, but hate and rebellion against ones unbelieving neighbours. Do you disagree with this or can you at least present one verse from the koran that promotes brotherly love towards all people. This is your CHALLANGE . If you cannot then you have proved to your self that Mohammed and his hate message from allah are the actual wolves that are out in sheep's clothing fooling the gullible all over the world today.

Cheers!
Trojan, I accept your challenge.

‘The true servants of the Most Merciful are those who behave gently and with humility on earth, and whenever the foolish quarrel with them, they reply with [words of] peace.’
(al-Furqan 25: 63)

Now, considering the following Qur'anic verse:

‘Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy. ’
(al-Nisa 4:82)

I challenge you to present me with ONE, only one, contradiction in the Qur'an. Good luck my friend.

-Salaam :)

Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:42 pm
by Wootah
Hi IiF,

Why not start here and let's work through this list and refute them all.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/#internal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
1. Who suffers loss if Muhammad was wrong? Sura 34:50 commands Muhammad to say, "If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss," which is a severe factual error in the Qur'an as well as contradicting the teaching of the Qur'an in a number of other verses.
There are two problems with 34.50 according to the site I linked but I want to focus on the first problem first. The first is that it is clearly untrue that if Muhammad is wrong then only he will suffer. Every person that believes him will suffer. So on this grounds 34.50 is just wrong. Followers do suffer if their leaders lead them astray. This is game over. Surely Muhammad cannot be so stupid as to not realise that if he is wrong many others will also go astray.

Your reply?

Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:27 pm
by ISLAMISTRUTH
First of all, when you quote the Qur'an, do not stop in the middle of a verse, you must finish it.

34:50
Say: "If I am astray, I only stray to the loss of my own SOUL: but if I receive guidance, it is because of the inspiration of my Lord to me: it is He Who hears all things, and is (ever) near"

And its quite evident if you have basic knowledge of Islamic beliefs.. that everyone is accountable for there own shortcomings i.e sins.. the son shall not bear the inequity of the father nor shall the father bear the inequity of the son. Obviously he's talking about straying from the righteous path, no one shall be punished but him, next.

Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:54 pm
by Wootah
ISLAMISTRUTH wrote:First of all, when you quote the Qur'an, do not stop in the middle of a verse, you must finish it.

34:50
Say: "If I am astray, I only stray to the loss of my own SOUL: but if I receive guidance, it is because of the inspiration of my Lord to me: it is He Who hears all things, and is (ever) near"

And its quite evident if you have basic knowledge of Islamic beliefs.. that everyone is accountable for there own shortcomings i.e sins.. the son shall not bear the inequity of the father nor shall the father bear the inequity of the son. Obviously he's talking about straying from the righteous path, no one shall be punished but him, next.
There is no next. Next is not a refutation.

Mo said - 'If I am astray, I only stray to my own loss'
This is just wrong. A Shepard that goes astray and walks into a pack of wolves will also kill his sheep. A politician that leads his country down a bad economic path will hurt that countries citizens. A sporting captain that makes a bad decision will hurt his teams chances of winning. A parent that makes poor decisions will hurt their children. A prophet that goes astray will take many with him.

34.50 - is a basic error in relation to reality. Mohammad the captain, the best example for Muslims will lead many astray if he is wrong and he can't recognise it.

The whole reason for punishing apostasy is because Muslims know that if apostates are left alive they will lead others astray. So if Islam really believed that an apostate will stray to their own loss only then why worry about apostates and kill them? You kill apostates because you know Mo and the Koran is wrong at 34.50.

There is no next. There is only more. And you have walked into part 2 - the contradiction of verse 34.50 with verse 16.25

You said "And its quite evident if you have basic knowledge of Islamic beliefs.. that everyone is accountable for there own shortcomings i.e sins" so if I reply with this passage from the Koran:
16.25 - That they may bear their loads complete on the Day of Resurrection, and some of the loads of those that they lead astray without any knowledge. O evil the load they bear!

Clearly 16.25 is making the one who leads others astray receive some of the loads of those that they led astray.

Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:32 pm
by Wootah
IslamisTruth I thought there was some challenge you made and accepted so I started the challenge and anyway you are probably to busy at the moment.