Islam vs. Christianity

Debate how Islam compares to other faiths and religions.
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HomerJay
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by HomerJay »

Obviously, you didn´t listen carefully to what your oh-so-catholic teachers told you about original sin. Neither has it anything to do with the OT "the sins of our fathers", nor is it anything like personal sin. We are born with the PROPENSITY to sin - not in a state of natural grace. OF COURSE we are born without personal sin. It also is the most obviously TRUE christian dogma.
I listened VERY carefully. As a matter of fact, I received the Religion subject award my graduating year at Vancouver College. I remember full well what the party line theological reasoning was for the "stain" of original sin, and I could quote liturgical cliches like the one you did from memory. However, no explanation along the lines of 'propensity" changes the implicit supposition that an infant is born with the STAIN of Adam's original sin, and that one of the effects of Baptism is to wash this slate clean. If original sin truly had no PERSONAL component, there would be no need for the "repair" of baptism, as we all have the PROPENSITY to sin at all times in our lives, before, after, or in spite of Baptism.

I have heard the official explanations from more Brothers, Priests, and Monsignors than I care to remember. As with all things, When reasoning attributed to the Almighty sounds like bunk, I go with me.
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debunker
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by debunker »

PS. I find it VERY difficult to believe that Debunker is actually a Muslim. I can see lambasting Christianity were one a Tibetan monk or Ghandi clone, but a follower of Mohammed being offended by OT violence and barbarity is a little like Ghengis Khan swearing off ice hockey because of the bloodshed.
This again?


PS. I did NOT start this thread, btw. It was a split from another thread started by another member (JAH). The request for the split was NOT made by me either (Aksel requested it).
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HomerJay
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by HomerJay »

This again?
Fine. I'll stop asking. Here's a tip for the future, though. If you want people to stop continually asking obvious questions, try answering one now and then.
I know, Yaweh did this and Joshua did that and somebody got swallowed by a whale and blah blah blah... I'll stop.
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debunker
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by debunker »

I already answered... and I provided the link to my answer to you. It was you who didn't respond to my answer... and here, in a different thread, you're repeating your question pretending that I didn't answer it already... hence the link.
I know, Yaweh did this and Joshua did that and somebody got swallowed by a whale and blah blah blah... I'll stop.
PS. Are you saying that *YOU* personally think the OT is corrupted?
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HomerJay
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by HomerJay »

No, Homey, I was just saying that my inability to reject that there is a God made me search for Him in other scriptures (the Bible) and the horror I seen made me run back to a book (the Quran) I had issues with (slavery/conquest).
THAT was your answer? You were so horrified by OT stories so you went back to Islam with those MINOR issues such as slavery and conquest? How can anyone who is repulsed by wanton violence and God-endorsed cruelty run for solace in a prophet whose whole raison d'etre was brinksmanship and banditry? THAT was the question I wanted answered (that always gets a tu quoque reply).

And no, I don't think the OT is "corrupted", at least any more so than any other ancient text written by fallible humans oftentimes with personal agendas. I Blah blahed because, as I've said before, comparing the Quran to the OT is apples and oranges. The quran is a day-to-day guidebook for all time for people like OBL, supposedly narrated by God and protected from distortion. NOBODY not on death row or in an insane asylum believes the OT to be similar in those respects.

The fact that Jericho was "put under the ban of the Lord" is of NO relevance to ANY Christian or Jew in the world today, and whether or not Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale isn't going to get anyone blown up. These are not "corrupted". They are stories and histories and allegories for the most part, written by MEN who - of course - always wanted to record their actions as being OK with the almighty.

But if your answer is that you found Islam less violent than Christianity, well then I guess that will do it.
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debunker
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

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THAT was your answer? You were so horrified by OT stories so you went back to Islam with those MINOR issues such as slavery and conquest? How can anyone who is repulsed by wanton violence and God-endorsed cruelty run for solace in a prophet whose whole raison d'etre was brinksmanship and banditry? THAT was the question I wanted answered (that always gets a tu quoque reply).
Again. Read my answer one more time.
The fact that Jericho was "put under the ban of the Lord" is of NO relevance to ANY Christian or Jew in the world today, and whether or not Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale isn't going to get anyone blown up. These are not "corrupted". They are stories and histories and allegories for the most part, written by MEN who - of course - always wanted to record their actions as being OK with the almighty.
Oh yeah, the descriptive vs. prescriptive argument... never mind the open-ended order to enslave far away nations in exchange for peace.. never mind the Jewish penal code (killing disobedient kids, stoning people who curse, disrespect the priest or work Saturdays)... all of these were only "descriptive" of Yahweh's true loving nature.
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HomerJay
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by HomerJay »

Oh yeah, the descriptive vs. prescriptive argument... never mind the open-ended order to enslave far away nations in exchange for peace.. never mind the Jewish penal code (killing disobedient kids, stoning people who curse, disrespect the priest or work Saturdays)... all of these were only "descriptive" of Yahweh's true loving nature.
This is becoming pointless. Yes! "Never mind" is a good way to put it. These things are "out of mind" to the civilized (non-Muslim) world, buried with the "dragging cavewomen around by the hair" behaviors. I promise! Last time! How can you complain about a millennial-bygone edict from Yaweh to the Israelites to "enslave far away nations in exchange for peace", something NO Jew or Christian is taught or believes since the wheel was invented, when this is EXACTLY what your idol Mohammed spent ALL his time doing and what millions of his followers are actively engaged in TODAY? And for someone who is (justifiably) repulsed by stonings and familial honor killings, we both know who is still practicing those behaviors, don't we?
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debunker
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

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This is becoming pointless. Yes! "Never mind" is a good way to put it. These things are "out of mind" to the civilized (non-Muslim) world, buried with the "dragging cavewomen around by the hair" behaviors. I promise! Last time! How can you complain about a millennial-bygone edict from Yaweh to the Israelites to "enslave far away nations in exchange for peace", something NO Jew or Christian is taught or believes since the wheel was invented,
1- It doesn't matter even if it were revealed 1 million years ago. If Yahweh ever told men to stone their kids then this fact will never change. Yahweh is still Yahweh. If you committ a crime a million years ago, you'd still be called a criminal today.

2- Ok, so apparently you're conceding to the fact that the monsterous Jewish penal code ALONG with the open-ended call to enslave all nations, these are PRESCRIPTIVE rather than descriptive... but somehow, however, it seems you believe that an evil book like the Bible can become benign simply if you ignore it! :lol: Damn, your logic is fascinating!

3- True, the Jews did ignore the OT, but the peace-most excellent Christians have been inspired by all the Satanic violence of the OT for almost 1800 years! That's ~90% of the time since the birth of Christianity. And shall secularism lift its foot off the mouth of the most excellent Church, it will bite again. You need to read more often, Homer.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1441&start=80" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

when this is EXACTLY what your idol Mohammed spent ALL his time doing and what millions of his followers are actively engaged in TODAY?
Hmmm? Let me think? Stoning kids? No. Stoning for cursing? No. Stoning for working on Friday? No. Stoning for disrespecting a Sheikh? No.... etc, etc.
And for someone who is (justifiably) repulsed by stonings and familial honor killings, we both know who is still practicing those behaviors, don't we?
No, Homer, please... I didn't say that the Bible advocated honor killings (nor did the Quran)... Middle Easterners practice it and so does a large part of the West (Latin America). Honor killings has nothing to do with either the Bible or the Quran... although come to think of it, the Bible does allow stoning a woman if her husband accused her (while the Quran says it's her word against his).... but then again, the Bible seems a bit too lax and liberal... it does allow a man to sell his own daughter into slavery, so there doesn't seem to be so much concern about honor...

Anyway, here, educate yourself a little.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4991#p82417" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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sum
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by sum »

I am surprised at the criticisms made by debunker of the OT etc when, in another thread, the muslims have claimed that there has only ever been one god - Allah. According to the muslims, Yahweh must be Allah. If debunker is appalled at the atrocities in the OT, which is all Allah`s doing, he rejects this OT era of Allah and replaces it with the Muhammad era of Allah with all its hatred, intolerance and incitement of violence towards non-muslims for all time. debunker is duty bound to fully accept all that is in the OT if he is a muslim.

The Koran supports the OT because Allah was masquerading as Yahweh. The Koran could not criticise Yahweh because it would be Allah criticising himself. If debunker does not like the OT he is also saying that he does not approve of Allah and what Allah willed to happen.

Muslims can not have it both ways. Either Allah was Yahweh or there were at least two gods. The muslims are left with a difficult decision to make. If there were/are two gods, in the eyes of the muslims, what happened to Yahweh? Does he share paradise with Allah?

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paarsurrey
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by paarsurrey »

Hi friends

And the pious Atheists Agnostics had not yet emerged on the scene, in my opinion.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim;bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/sects/religions Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and working for their unity and brotherhood.

http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
crazymonkie_
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by crazymonkie_ »

That's because there's no such thing, moron.
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HomerJay
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by HomerJay »

I give up. No matter how I word it, and irrespective of the thread's title, you just will not address those aspects about Islam for which you (seemingly) hypocritically lambaste Yaweh. Like all Muslims, your defense of your ideology consists of reflexive pointing fingers in other directions.
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debunker
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by debunker »

read my response again, Homer.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4424&start=40#p77302" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Wootah
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by Wootah »

Oh yeah, the descriptive vs. prescriptive argument... never mind the open-ended order to enslave far away nations in exchange for peace.. never mind the Jewish penal code (killing disobedient kids, stoning people who curse, disrespect the priest or work Saturdays)... all of these were only "descriptive" of Yahweh's true loving nature.
When people talk about the descriptive vs. prescriptive argument no one is saying that those weren't commands to the Jews. What they are discussing is the fact that those are not commands to us today whereas Mohammed speaks directly to you today. You want to fight but aren't willing to tighten up the arguments.
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by debunker »

@ wootah

Click here.
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Wootah
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by Wootah »

OK I read your post.

On the Old Testament:

Frankly discussing the Old Testament is not easy. It is a complex book that is a mix of history and revelation. Most of the book requires context and a willingness to talk and discuss things that requires suspension of judgement. Taking one example, the global flood. Either God was just in judging the world at that time or he wasn't. If he wasn't just then God was evil. If he was then how can we know he was just? Frankly I don't think we can directly know whether God's sentence to all those people was just, we don't know the facts.

But here's the thing: When I read the OT and wrestle with its content, the wrestle is determining whether God is worthy of worship. How can I worship a God for whom the wages of sin is death or who has killed so many? For the Muslim there is no struggle in deciding if Allah is worthy or not, it is not even a question. Muslim's have no concept of love or justice or mercy because Allah is outside our understanding. You look at the OT as flawed, it's just a basic understanding that you have not challenged in a long time because you aren't used to challenging assumptions.

God's Old Testament is inviting you to challenge him. It's God saying, "Here I am. I did this, this and this and yet I am good loving and just and worthy of your worship. Deal with me." This is why the love for God is real in Christianity and not in Islam. You love Allah because you are told to. I love God because I didn't want to, fought against him and learnt what love is.


On why you don't practice Islam:
I would respond to you that you are a Western Muslim. You don't have the power to enact Sharia and as such wait until you will be able to. I am certain that if Islam gets its hands on any Western country the penalty for death for apostasy, the penalty of having your hand cut off for stealing, the penalty of stoning for adultery will be legislated again. I am also reasonably sure that Muslims like yourself will be disgusted but that has nothing to do with your correct interpretation of Islam but everything to do with having lived in a democratic, Christian based, predominantly secular West. You simply can't believe the literal meaning of Islam as held by millions of Muslims any more. To be honest this site, FFI, is for people like you - Muslims that are just as afraid of Islam as we all are.
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debunker
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by debunker »

@ wootah

what a load of crap! First off, I NEVER said anything about God committing genocides... I only objected to God presumably allowing mere men to committ genocides (even animals weren't spared).

Second, quit using this presumptuous tone with me or I'll have to put you in your place, you hear me? You know NOTHING about me.
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Wootah
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by Wootah »

debunker wrote:what a load of crap! First off, I NEVER said anything about God committing genocides... I only objected to God presumably allowing mere men to committ genocides (even animals weren't spared).
I would apply a similar logic to God using his people as instruments for his Justice.

On genocide: Don't you sometimes wish that when it comes to evil we killed the whole thing. Take cancer for instance, missing one cell of cancer can see the whole cancer regrow. Actually this ties into the justice/mercy discussion. Of course the wicked want mercy but they still want to be wicked.
debunker wrote:Second, quit using this presumptuous tone with me or I'll have to put you in your place, you hear me? You know NOTHING about me.
This is a place to understand how Islam did what it did to so many. Fire at will if you like.
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debunker
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by debunker »

This is a place to understand how Islam did what it did to so many. Fire at will if you like.
Go **** yourself you piece of sh!t! Talk about Islam all you want but don't you dare talk about me! Or at least don't direct your insults to me. You can insult me in the third person only... like debunker is such and such but never in the first person.
Last edited by debunker on Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Wootah
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity

Post by Wootah »

debunker wrote:Go **** yourself you piece of sh!t! Talk about Islam all you want but don't you dare talk about me!
That's just silly, to think we should separate the beliefs and the person. Personally I think it really does upset Western Muslims who really do fight the contradiction of what they want to believe with what their religion is saying. This is why there are no moderate Muslims, or radical ones, only Muslims.
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