The war against Christianity

[debunker]

@Brenda

Certainly the terrorist actions of Muslims are linked to the Quran. I do not need to make this claim - they make it for themselves.

Indeed, those fuckers are the ONLY enemies of Islam.

[Brendalee]

Quran 9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden by Allah and His messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

PLEASE do not try to pretend that this was not the basis of the pact of Umar. PLEASE do not pretend that this verse was not the foundation for the dhimmitude inflicted upon conquered populations right up to the turn of the 20th century.

[debunker]

Now, now... I never denied that Islamic conquest was a reality... all I asked for is to admit that the covenant of Umar (as offensive as it is) exemplifies the true nature of Islamic conquest... that's all i asked for since day 1 in this forum.

[charleslemartel]

@Brenda

Certainly the terrorist actions of Muslims are linked to the Quran. I do not need to make this claim - they make it for themselves.

Indeed, those fuckers are the ONLY enemies of Islam.

I would have argued against your statement, but I remembered what Psycho Bunny once told about we telling Muslims what we think they believe.

May be you need to join some Islamic forum too to get the real picture.

[debunker]

@ Charles

Get the real picture? You mean what Muslims actually think?

Let me give you an 'example' of what some Muslims actually think:

One day, I was reproaching my Muslim friend (here in the US) for having a girlfriend and reminding him that fornication is a big sin. He replied to me (seriously) that there's nothing wrong with it! I asked him why? He said because she's non-Muslim? I said so what? He said her being a non-Muslim makes her his slave, only he can't help enslaving her so he's enjoying his rights with her permission!!!!

Don't tell me I don't know how Muslims think...

Oh and by the way, those Taliban style Muslims wish to see every spot on earth in ruins. And those animals spare nothing and no one. One of them was caught in the Grand Mosque in Mecca with explosives intending to blow himself up among Muslims hoping that such a move would topple down the Saudi Dynasty... there is no limits to those animals.

[Brendalee]

Now, now... I never denied that Islamic conquest was a reality... all I asked for is to admit that the covenant of Umar (as offensive as it is) exemplifies the true nature of Islamic conquest... that's all i asked for since day 1 in this forum.

No, no....let's get back on topic. You clearly stated that that verse was in context about Tabruk. We have pointed out that this verse is taken as permanently applicable - in context NOT just about Tabruk.

Yes, you are right though. The true nature of Islamic conquest is extremely offensive. Inhuman and disgusting, in fact.

Now you want to equivocate with some nonsense about how that's ALL Islamic conquest is about. What about the TERROR verses in the Quran, telling believers to TERRORISE non-Muslims? What about the keep fighting until Islam dominates whether the non-Muslims LIKE IT OR NOT?

What about the SLAVERY in the Quran and the way that Allah MOCKS the idea that a slave is in any way equal to a master of a slave? What about taking slaves as spoils? What about right hand possessions?

Aren't you instructed to love what Allah loves and hate what Allah hates? Doesn't Allah call non-Muslims the most vile of all created things?

What about Allah saying that it is the lot of Muslims to slay and be slain in Allah's way because even if they might not like war, Allah knows what is best?

The pact of Umar is only a tiny piece of the dispicable teaching put into practise from the Quran.

[charleslemartel]

@ Charles

Get the real picture? You mean what Muslims actually think?

Let me give you an 'example' of what some Muslims actually think:

One day, I was reproaching my Muslim friend (here in the US) for having a girlfriend and reminding him that fornication is a big sin. He replied to me (seriously) that there's nothing wrong with it! I asked him why? He said because she's non-Muslim? I said so what? He said her being a non-Muslim makes her his slave, only he can't help enslaving her so he's enjoying his rights with her permission!!!!

Don't tell me I don't know how Muslims think...

Oh and by the way, those Taliban style Muslims wish to see every spot on earth in ruins. nd those animals spare nothing and no one. One of them was caught in the Grand Mosque in Mecca with explosives intending to blow himself up among Muslims hoping that such a move would topple down the Saudi Dynasty... there is no limits to those animals.

Sorry. I had forgotten that you were fully aware of how Muslims think. I would blame it on the untimely pegs of Whiskey

[debunker]

@ Brenda

I'm tired of repeating myself... and most certainly I'm tired of hearing rantings... so long.

[charleslemartel]

@ Brenda

I'm tired of repeating myself... and most certainly I'm tired of hearing rantings... so long.

Isn't it a sin for Jehova's Witness to get tired?

Sorry for the bad joke. But it is extremely difficult for me to refrain from taking a dig at Ahmed whenever the opportunity arises.

[dianagrace]

The media and other people can critize and do bad things to satisfy themselves and ridicule Christianity. After all, Jesus himself said that Christians will be persecuted and mocked because of their allegiance to him. And if we suffer, we suffer as he did and will also share in his glory when he returns to judge the entire human race. So I say let them say whatever they wanna say, make documentaries and criticise our faith, but they will all be held accountable for their actions. Happy are those who trust in the Lord..

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

It's so funny to listen to Muslims talk about a "War on Islam", when it's really a war on violent, stone aged thugs, and it is the same people that claim this that actually wish there was a war against Islam and will try to portray it as such any way they can because the truth of the matter is that they want to wage a war against Christianity and other faiths. So to them, it's all about religion, and to the US and other civil western nations, it's all about practicality issues, and yet they have the nerve to claim that the west wishes to war against Islam itself when it is THEY who wish to make the whole matter religious. As I always say, the biggest and most despicable liars on the planet. It seems to be in their very nature. What is it about Islam that turns these people into such rotten, foul, filthy liars? Is there something in Islam that condones this? Where do these people obviously get the idea that it does?

[crazymonkie_]

The media and other people can critize and do bad things to satisfy themselves and ridicule Christianity. After all, Jesus himself said that Christians will be persecuted and mocked because of their allegiance to him. And if we suffer, we suffer as he did and will also share in his glory when he returns to judge the entire human race. So I say let them say whatever they wanna say, make documentaries and criticise our faith, but they will all be held accountable for their actions. Happy are those who trust in the Lord..

And I could *almost* get behind you.... but for the fact that Christianity's been in charge in the West for about 1700. And managed to 'eff up just about everything from then till now. So please excuse me if I'm really not impressed with Christian governance.

Now at this point you may say 'but they weren't true Christians,' but you'd be wrong. Those who messed up the West- facilitating its descent into the Dark Ages, keeping learning from the majority of the populace, and coming up with circular, screwy arguments for their systems staying in charge- were *the Christians* of their ages. Whether or not by *your* standards they would have gotten into Heaven is absolutely irrelevant; what god thinks is similarly irrelevant. What matters is their self-identification, and what they did with your religion.

The capacity to criticize ANY religion- or any cultural force, economic system, political system, etc.- is a great strength, and was HARD FOUGHT. Centuries of Christians killing Christians, to the point of stalemate, and then more centuries of realizing that it was CHRISTIANITY that messed things up- and now YOU don't want to hear the criticism, because you don't like it? Too bad. To your religion, I am worth less (I don't follow Christian morals); I am a fool (don't believe in your god); I am your enemy (the same). So again: I don't care if you're offended- we need this sort of discussion. Silence is the same as assent to the ascendancy of theocracy, as far as I'm concerned.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

The media and other people can critize and do bad things to satisfy themselves and ridicule Christianity. After all, Jesus himself said that Christians will be persecuted and mocked because of their allegiance to him. And if we suffer, we suffer as he did and will also share in his glory when he returns to judge the entire human race. So I say let them say whatever they wanna say, make documentaries and criticise our faith, but they will all be held accountable for their actions. Happy are those who trust in the Lord..

And I could *almost* get behind you.... but for the fact that Christianity's been in charge in the West for about 1700. And managed to 'eff up just about everything from then till now. So please excuse me if I'm really not impressed with Christian governance.

Now at this point you may say 'but they weren't true Christians,' but you'd be wrong. Those who messed up the West- facilitating its descent into the Dark Ages, keeping learning from the majority of the populace, and coming up with circular, screwy arguments for their systems staying in charge- were *the Christians* of their ages. Whether or not by *your* standards they would have gotten into Heaven is absolutely irrelevant; what god thinks is similarly irrelevant. What matters is their self-identification, and what they did with your religion.

I believe that a religion is a concept, not it's followers actions. Where did Jesus tell them to do any of this? And if he didn't, are their actions truly part of Christianity? If so, we could find where Jesus told them to do this.

The capacity to criticize ANY religion- or any cultural force, economic system, political system, etc.- is a great strength, and was HARD FOUGHT. Centuries of Christians killing Christians, to the point of stalemate, and then more centuries of realizing that it was CHRISTIANITY that messed things up-

Everything was messed up in the world. Do you think the east ended up making out any better? You subscribe to the nonsense that Christianity must be held up to a standard and scrutinized, while others need not be held to a standard. There were brutalities all over the world from everybody, but the Christian ones got better publishing. And since Christianity today, freely allows criticism of it, unlike Islam, it becomes the kicking post. If one listens, then that's the person people will kick. If the US does something that the world thinks is wrong, the world screams. Why? Because they believe the US has ears. If China or the old Soviet Union does something wrong, nobody bothers to scream because they know that almost nobody in China or the Soviet Union will hear them, and the ones that do, do not care. So ironically, it's the ones that care that people try to kick.

and now YOU don't want to hear the criticism, because you don't like it? Too bad. To your religion, I am worth less (I don't follow Christian morals); I am a fool (don't believe in your god); I am your enemy (the same). So again: I don't care if you're offended- we need this sort of discussion. Silence is the same as assent to the ascendancy of theocracy, as far as I'm concerned.

"Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?"
"Caesar's," they replied.
Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."

Anyway, sorry some Christians obviously treated you badly. As Gandhi said, if it weren't for the Christians, I would be one.

[elle]

Muhammad bL asks,

As I always say, the biggest and most despicable liars on the planet (Muslims). It seems to be in their very nature. What is it about Islam that turns these people into such rotten, foul, filthy liars? Is there something in Islam that condones this? Where do these people obviously get the idea that it does?

The answer is found in the Koran and the philosophy of Islam as illustrated from the following Koranic verses and from Islamic Hadiths.

Bukhari:V7B67N427 "The Prophet said, 'If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.'"

[The prophet illustrates that he chooses his oath to suit the occasion or his advantage.]
Qur'an 9:3 "Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations."

[Allah's messenger may dissolve his obligations as he chooses. He does not need permission from Allah.]

Qur'an 66:2 "Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows."

[Allah has sanction that you may break your vows. So vows mean nothing in Islam.]

Bukhari:V4B52N268 "Allah's Apostle said, 'War is deceit.'"

[Mohammad has decreed that in War any deceit is acceptable in Islam, as war is deceit. Islam is at perpetual war with all non-Muslims, i.e. Christians and Jews.]

Qur'an 4:142 "Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah. He shall retaliate by deceiving them."

[Because Allah believes his enemies will try to deceive Allah, Allah has the full justification to deceive his enemies.]

The above provides you with just a few Islamic sources that provides the justification for their actions. It has become part of the Islamic culture. So there is nothing wrong with lying. Telling the truth is a Christian weakness and fault.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

Muhammad bL asks,

As I always say, the biggest and most despicable liars on the planet (Muslims). It seems to be in their very nature. What is it about Islam that turns these people into such rotten, foul, filthy liars? Is there something in Islam that condones this? Where do these people obviously get the idea that it does?

The answer is found in the Koran and the philosophy of Islam as illustrated from the following Koranic verses and from Islamic Hadiths.

Bukhari:V7B67N427 "The Prophet said, 'If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.'"

[The prophet illustrates that he chooses his oath to suit the occasion or his advantage.]
Qur'an 9:3 "Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations."

[Allah's messenger may dissolve his obligations as he chooses. He does not need permission from Allah.]

Qur'an 66:2 "Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows."

[Allah has sanction that you may break your vows. So vows mean nothing in Islam.]

Bukhari:V4B52N268 "Allah's Apostle said, 'War is deceit.'"

[Mohammad has decreed that in War any deceit is acceptable in Islam, as war is deceit. Islam is at perpetual war with all non-Muslims, i.e. Christians and Jews.]

Qur'an 4:142 "Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah. He shall retaliate by deceiving them."

[Because Allah believes his enemies will try to deceive Allah, Allah has the full justification to deceive his enemies.]

The above provides you with just a few Islamic sources that provides the justification for their actions. It has become part of the Islamic culture. So there is nothing wrong with lying. Telling the truth is a Christian weakness and fault.

That is to be taken advantage of by our honest and honorable Muslims. And they know they are being dishonest hypocritical opportunists, but they don't care. Achieve the numbers, that's all that matter, whether by hook or crook. There's no sense of honor needed in one's dealings with the kafir. That must be what they tell themselves when they stoop down as low as they do.

[elle]

crazymonkie:

And I could *almost* get behind you.... but for the fact that Christianity's been in charge in the West for about 1700. And managed to 'eff up just about everything from then till now. So please excuse me if I'm really not impressed with Christian governance.

Now at this point you may say 'but they weren't true Christians,' but you'd be wrong. Those who messed up the West- facilitating its descent into the Dark Ages, keeping learning from the majority of the populace, and coming up with circular, screwy arguments for their systems staying in charge- were *the Christians* of their ages. Whether or not by *your* standards they would have gotten into Heaven is absolutely irrelevant; what god thinks is similarly irrelevant. What matters is their self-identification, and what they did with your religion.

elle: The dominance of the western nations over the world for the past 1400 years was not a religious (Christian) issue. It was due to the superiority of western nations with their skills in sailing, and gunnery and their desire to seek fortunes in foreign adventures. The western nations fought amongst themselves for supremacy to exploit the undeveloped nations of the world, and later to find a market for their industrialisation development. It was not a religious pursuit although the people were quite religious at that time. But it was not a war of Christianity against the heathens. The more industrialised west exploited the less developed nations for personal and national gain, not religious gain.

But it is true too that the religious missionaries followed in the heels of the conquistadors in order to spread their belief that the only salvation was through Christianity. But it was never a war of Christianity vs. Hinduism or Taoism or Islam or Buddhism. They only tried conversions where possible. This was very strongly resisted in Muslim lands and Christian missionaries did not make too much of a attempt to convert Muslims. The purpose of the proselytising of Christianity was a sincere belief that Christianity was the only right way to find god. It also assisted to soften the native people to be more receptive to the invading forces and later provided them the people to run the lower rungs of their government.

The Islamic Jihad is an entirely different philosophy regarding Islam and their need to dominate the universe. The Islamic Jihad is a truly religious and everlasting war. Islam will not rest until it has made the world a Dar al Islam, a world of Peace.

[dianagrace]

The media and other people can critize and do bad things to satisfy themselves and ridicule Christianity. After all, Jesus himself said that Christians will be persecuted and mocked because of their allegiance to him. And if we suffer, we suffer as he did and will also share in his glory when he returns to judge the entire human race. So I say let them say whatever they wanna say, make documentaries and criticise our faith, but they will all be held accountable for their actions. Happy are those who trust in the Lord..

And I could *almost* get behind you.... but for the fact that Christianity's been in charge in the West for about 1700. And managed to 'eff up just about everything from then till now. So please excuse me if I'm really not impressed with Christian governance.

Now at this point you may say 'but they weren't true Christians,' but you'd be wrong. Those who messed up the West- facilitating its descent into the Dark Ages, keeping learning from the majority of the populace, and coming up with circular, screwy arguments for their systems staying in charge- were *the Christians* of their ages. Whether or not by *your* standards they would have gotten into Heaven is absolutely irrelevant; what god thinks is similarly irrelevant. What matters is their self-identification, and what they did with your religion.

The capacity to criticize ANY religion- or any cultural force, economic system, political system, etc.- is a great strength, and was HARD FOUGHT. Centuries of Christians killing Christians, to the point of stalemate, and then more centuries of realizing that it was CHRISTIANITY that messed things up- and now YOU don't want to hear the criticism, because you don't like it? Too bad. To your religion, I am worth less (I don't follow Christian morals); I am a fool (don't believe in your god); I am your enemy (the same). So again: I don't care if you're offended- we need this sort of discussion. Silence is the same as assent to the ascendancy of theocracy, as far as I'm concerned.

Why is Christianity always being criticized and ridiculed? Why not Buddhism, Hinduism or other less well-known religions out there? Sure Christianity's had it's share in history, meaning to say, as long as men/women are involved, it will inevitably be imperfect. Christianity was also influenced by the Romans in the early centuries. The Romans were quite barbaric to say the least. And today just as there are different sects of Christianity, Islam etc. so were there also divisions in the Church in those days. Hence, Christians were persecuted by fellow Christians for not accepting new teaching and doctrines that were introduced.

I'm not offended at all, all comments and posts are always welcome.

[elle]

Muhammad:

That is to be taken advantage of by our honest and honorable Muslims. And they know they are being dishonest hypocritical opportunists, but they don't care. Achieve the numbers, that's all that matter, whether by hook or crook. There's no sense of honor needed in one's dealings with the kafir. That must be what they tell themselves when they stoop down as low as they do.

Here I would like to offer my views. I do not believe that most Muslims are dishonest or hypocritical or opportunistic BUT are sincere in their pursuit of their religion. They have been taught that their biggest sacrifice to Allah is to promote Islam even if it could mean the sacrifice of his own life. Thus it is the duty of every Muslim to work for the promotion and the protection of Allah and Islam using whatever means at their disposal, even deceit because allah will know the true intent of his heart, for Allah sees all, and will know that a person was sincerely and loyal to Allah, Allah will understand. So using Taqiyya is using dissimulation to gain an advantage over his enemy and that is condoned by Allah and it is not seen as a lie.

This is why, to understand Islam we must understand their philosophy and the teachings of Islam to understand, that what is seen as dishonesty in Christianity is a virtue in Islam and the whole Muslin community and culture.

[sword_of_truth]

Here I would like to offer my views. I do not believe that most Muslims are dishonest or hypocritical or opportunistic BUT are sincere in their pursuit of their religion. They have been taught that their biggest sacrifice to Allah is to promote Islam even if it could mean the sacrifice of his own life. Thus it is the duty of every Muslim to work for the promotion and the protection of Allah and Islam using whatever means at their disposal, even deceit because allah will know the true intent of his heart, for Allah sees all, and will know that a person was sincerely and loyal to Allah, Allah will understand. So using Taqiyya is using dissimulation to gain an advantage over his enemy and that is condoned by Allah and it is not seen as a lie.

This is why, to understand Islam we must understand their philosophy and the teachings of Islam to understand, that what is seen as dishonesty in Christianity is a virtue in Islam and the whole Muslin community and culture.

Maybe among radical muslims. Among normal muslims, they don't even talk about Taqiyya. That's more like one of the little secrets they have to hide so that people don't find out the truth. The point is that you can trick people in war. But I never heard of Taqiyya when I was a muslim, and most muslims will probably say the same or that they rarely heard anything about it. So, we can't speak of the whole muslim community being that way. They are just ridiculously biased and blind to anything that might be wrong with Islam, so in that sense, dishonesty is considered a virtue. And really, intellectual dishonesty is often considered a virtue in any religion when it comes to defending the faith against criticism.

[crazymonkie_]

I believe that a religion is a concept, not it's followers actions. Where did Jesus tell them to do any of this? And if he didn't, are their actions truly part of Christianity? If so, we could find where Jesus told them to do this.

This is true, religion is a concept. But the problem is, whenever Christianity has been ascendant, things have not gone well.

Generally, Jesus (as you pointed out) wasn't too keen on Christians governing. Paul was usually the one to be quoted.

Though really, it was more a case that went like this: 'Christianity has the best moral system. As Christians, we are called to make the world more God-like. Therefore, we must change whatever moral system we come into contact with into the Christian moral system. Those who stand in our way will either convert or die.'

This is not a case of a 'few bad apples spoiling the bunch.' This was mainstream Christianity, from the time of Constantine on. The arguments and methods are still implicit in Christianity, and that is why I fear the possibility of giving Christianity- of any sect- power.

Everything was messed up in the world. Do you think the east ended up making out any better?

When did I talk about the east? I was talking about Christianity because 1)I know about its history, and 2) dianagrace brought it up. I don't like ANY theocracy, but in this instance, I was talking about Christian theocracy.

You subscribe to the nonsense that Christianity must be held up to a standard and scrutinized, while others need not be held to a standard.

Eh? When did I say any other religion has no right to be criticized? I was making the point that dianagrace's position was absurd; as much as the views of anyone who is 'offended' by having their religion scrutinized or parodied.

There were brutalities all over the world from everybody, but the Christian ones got better publishing. And since Christianity today, freely allows criticism of it, unlike Islam, it becomes the kicking post.

If I knew jack squat about Islam, believe me, I'd be criticizing it. Religion in general deserves a long, resounding kicking.

If one listens, then that's the person people will kick. If the US does something that the world thinks is wrong, the world screams. Why? Because they believe the US has ears. If China or the old Soviet Union does something wrong, nobody bothers to scream because they know that almost nobody in China or the Soviet Union will hear them, and the ones that do, do not care. So ironically, it's the ones that care that people try to kick.

All very true. I'm not sure what to do about that, beyond working to weaken the general autocratic tendencies in China or Russia, or whatever other place that may act the same way in the face of criticism.

Let me be clear: I love the West. The most west of the West- I'm a 'West Coast liberal elitist' at heart. But I won't sit idly by if someone says they're offended based on their religion. And again- I only criticize Christianity because that's what I know. I could also do a bit of criticism of Buddhism, if you'd like me to.

Anyway, sorry some Christians obviously treated you badly. As Gandhi said, if it weren't for the Christians, I would be one.

Me? Nah, I've never been treated bad by Christians, beyond a personal level that had nothing to do with religion in general.

I just fear theocracy, that's all, really. And I feel that giving special treatment to some religious people based on their being 'offended' is just a back-door method to this. That we need to keep open the possibility of ridicule, of any religion, political party, public figure, and so on.

Though I do realize that I express it very emotionally, so it does seem like... I dunno, like some big bad Christian jock shoved me in a locker, or something.

Baptists did sour me on churches for a while, but I got over that years ago.

Speaking of though: I do think that Biblical literalism, and hopefully Fundamentalism, won't survive the next century. It's a pretty new approach; only really took off with the Niagara Bible Conferences from the 1830s-1890s.

Also want to add something here:

The Islamic Jihad is an entirely different philosophy regarding Islam and their need to dominate the universe. The Islamic Jihad is a truly religious and everlasting war. Islam will not rest until it has made the world a Dar al Islam, a world of Peace.

That's why I totally fear Islam. It would probably be a good idea for me to learn classical Arabic, if only so I could say 'Wait, that's not what the verse says', but generally I'm not a fan of debating people using their books.

Though based on the interactions I've seen here (if the Muslims on this site are any indication- maybe they're even MORE level-headed than the average) my standard approach- that is, to try to work through an ontologically coherent definition of god BEFORE considering specific claims in any books- would probably not go so well.

Dianagrace, you also raise some good points about how religion wasn't the *only* thing that caused problems. Things are always so complicated, and there's certainly enough blame to go around. To say nothing of the fact that the idea of religion as a separate cultural force really only got going in the 17th century (in the West) anyway.... so, I will apologize for monologizing history. Not all religious stuff is bad, of course. It's only when the ideas that are used are those extrapolated to mean 'We are in the right, anyone who refuses must be stopped' that things get really nasty. That it can happen again frightens me, and if I do see that it is happening in small ways, I will work to try and stop it. And I know there are religious people who will do the same- at least in the U.S., probably in Canada.