The Golden Rule

Debate how Islam compares to other faiths and religions.
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manfred
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The Golden Rule

Post by manfred »

eagle wrote:... show me a single Quranic ordinance opposing morality, ethics and the golden rule which you and your peers love harping upon.
I can play the organ (poorly) and the piano, a bit of violin too, but harp, never tried.

1) There is no statement of the golden rule in the Qur'an.
2) the Golden Rule is INDEPENDENT of your neighbour's religion, and even that neighbour's moral standards. It includes ALL people.

Ethics in Islam do not include ALL people. There is one set of conduct towards other Muslims and a very different one towards anyone else. In that Islam opposes the Golden Rule.

There is also another difference:

Islamic ethics consist of a very long list of RULES for Muslims to follow. That exhausts morality. Follow the rules. For almost everybody else, there are general principles that guide behaviour.

Suppose a driver drives past a school and there is a sign "children, 20mph". The Muslim approach would be to closely watch the speedometer to make sure that you do not go faster than 20mph, possibly paying scant attention to the road ahead. The rule is followed, so if something happens you do not get blamed.

Everybody else would slow down, and carefully watch the sides of the road, give parked cars a wide berth, and stop if there is a football in the road. To take the same care not to hurt any child as you would with your own child.

That is the fundamental difference between Muslim ethics and other people's ethics. And Muslim ethics is exactly the sort of thing we find Jesus arguing against, frequently.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Eagle
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by Eagle »

The Quran and the prophetic sunna not only reach but dwarf the golden rule standard. But before getting into that, let the above poster be specific and show an instance where the Quran or the prophetic sunna infringe upon that rule

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manfred
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by manfred »

48:29 "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.”

So when Mohammed tortures a man to find out where his money is, he following the golden rule?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

frankie
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by frankie »

Eagle wrote:The Quran and the prophetic sunna not only reach but dwarf the golden rule standard. But before getting into that, let the above poster be specific and show an instance where the Quran or the prophetic sunna infringe upon that rule

Eagle
A better idea would be if you provided evidence from Islamic sources where and why Islam follows the Golden Rule.

Deal?

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SAM
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:48:29 "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.”
:lotpot: This is not a surah of the Quran that violates the rules.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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manfred
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by manfred »

The golden rule applies to ALL other people equally. In Islam, you are instructed to behave very differently towards people depending on their religion.

The golden rule also demands PROPORTIONATE responses. Cutting off hands and feet for stealing is not proportionate.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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SAM
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:The golden rule applies to ALL other people equally. In Islam, you are instructed to behave very differently towards people depending on their religion.

The golden rule also demands PROPORTIONATE responses. Cutting off hands and feet for stealing is not proportionate.
Golden Rule in Christianity :yuk:

Keep in your mind, Christianity has plenty of stories of non-believers, heathen, paganism, etc being killed, enslaved or forced to convert. Don't forget the inquisition, extermination, exile and forced conversion of virtually the entire native population of North, Central, South America, Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Philippines and many more of the bad things they did. :yuk:
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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manfred
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by manfred »

If the rule is not followed by some that does not invalidate the rule. If a Muslim does not fast in Ramadan, does that mean fasting should be stopped?

And the Golden Rule can be found in ALL major (and most minor) religions as well as with people who do not follow any religion at all. Islam is the exception.

If a Christian treats ANYONE badly then that is a sin. If a Muslim treats unbelievers cruelly or even kills them, then that is a virtue in Islam.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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SAM
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:If the rule is not followed by some that does not invalidate the rule. If a Muslim does not fast in Ramadan, does that mean fasting should be stopped?

And the Golden Rule can be found in ALL major (and most minor) religions as well as with people who do not follow any religion at all. Islam is the exception.

If a Christian treats ANYONE badly then that is a sin. If a Muslim treats unbelievers cruelly or even kills them, then that is a virtue in Islam.
There is no Golden Rule in the history of Christianity except for their cruelty. :horse:
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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manfred
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by manfred »

Oh run along, Sam, as usual you are talking garbage.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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SAM
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:Oh run along, Sam, as usual you are talking garbage.
Then prove it, in what century Christianity had a golden rule in this world before the advent of Islam.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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manfred
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by manfred »

The golden rule is in the gospels, SAM. Math. 7.12 and Luke 10:27 and also in the Hebrew Bible
You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your kinsfolk. Love your neighbour as yourself: I am the LORD.
 Leviticus 19:18
The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as one of your citizens; you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I the LORD am your God.
— Leviticus 19:34

This is well before Islam.

And Islam does not have any rule like that.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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manfred
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by manfred »

And in alphabetical order, other religions/irreligious value system and the golden rule:

Bahá'í Faith: “Choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself." Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

Brahmanism: "This is the sum of duty: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you". Mahabharata, 5:1517

Buddhism: "...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353

Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18

Christianity: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12, King James Version.

"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31, King James Version.

"...and don't do what you hate...", Gospel of Thomas 6.

Confucianism: "Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23

"Ze-Gong asked, 'Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?' Confucius replied, 'It is the word 'xu' -- reciprocity. Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire.'" Doctrine of the Mean 13.3

"Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence." Mencius VII.A.4

Ancient Egyptian: "Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do." The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 - 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson. The original dates to 1970 to 1640 BCE and may be the earliest version ever written.

Hinduism: "One should not behave towards others in a way which is disagreeable to oneself." Mencius Vii.A.4

"This is the sum of the Dharma [duty]: do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you." Mahabharata 5:1517

Humanism: "(5) Humanists acknowledge human interdependence, the need for mutual respect and the kinship of all humanity."

"Don't do things you wouldn't want to have done to you, British Humanist Society.

Jainism: "In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard our own self." Lord Mahavira, 24th Tirthankara

"A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated. "Sutrakritanga 1.11.33

Judaism: "...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18

"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.

"And what you hate, do not do to any one." Tobit 4:15

Native American Spirituality:

"All things are our relatives; what we do to everything, we do to ourselves. All is really One." Black Elk

Roman Pagan Religion: "The law imprinted on the hearts of all men is to love the members of society as themselves."

Shinto: "The heart of the person before you is a mirror. See there your own form"

Sikhism: "Don't create enmity with anyone as God is within everyone." Guru Arjan Devji 259

Taoism: "Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien.

Wicca: "An it harm no one, do what thou wilt" (i.e. do what ever you will, as long as it harms nobody, including yourself). One's will is to be carefully thought out in advance of action. This is called the Wiccan Rede

Yoruba: ( Nigeria ): "One going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts."

Zoroastrianism: "That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself". Dadistan-i-dinik 94:5

"Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others." Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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SAM
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by SAM »

I have asked you, in what century Christianity had a golden rule in the world 600 years before the arrival of Islam, not your Bible verse or copy and paste from Wikipedia. Even after Islam, Christianity did not have a golden rule.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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manfred
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by manfred »

a) not copied from wiki
b)as the golden rule is stated in biblical texts, including the HB, the answer to your questions is "Obviously since he very beginning". Jesus states it. And it was also stated in the priestly sources of the HB, which predates Christianity by at least 800 years.

Your question ridiculously implies that Islam brought the golden rule. The golden rule is entirely absent in Islam.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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Hombre
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by Hombre »

Eagle wrote:The Quran and the prophetic sunna not only reach but dwarf the golden rule standard. But before getting into that, let the above poster be specific and show an instance where the Quran or the prophetic sunna infringe upon that rule
One major golden rule dictated by Muhammad is - any Muslim is allowed to use ANY & All means to defeat non-Muslims. Lie, cheat, sign agreement (Hudna) with clear intention to break them when appropriate) .Obfuscate - even temporarily convert into his opponent's religion until that that opponent's weak moment - then attack with no mercy & defeat him / her.

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Hombre
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by Hombre »

SAM wrote:
manfred wrote:The golden rule applies to ALL other people equally. In Islam, you are instructed to behave very differently towards people depending on their religion.

The golden rule also demands PROPORTIONATE responses. Cutting off hands and feet for stealing is not proportionate.
Golden Rule in Christianity :yuk:

Keep in your mind, Christianity has plenty of stories of non-believers, heathen, paganism, etc being killed, enslaved or forced to convert. Don't forget the inquisition, extermination, exile and forced conversion of virtually the entire native population of North, Central, South America, Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Philippines and many more of the bad things they did. :yuk:
Since you have no viable reply - you resort to that typical tactic - "projection" & "what about you". shift the conversation to the opponent side.

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manfred
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by manfred »

Compare, SAM:
"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.”


Quran 48:29

No consideration at all is to be given to a non-Muslim. There are many other verses that show the brotherhood in Islam is not universal. The rest of mankind have no rights and should not be treated in the same way that Muslims are to be treated. The entire Quran is the breach of the Golden Rule. Quran tells Muslims to slay the unbelievers wherever they find them (2:191), do not befriend them (3:28), fight them and show them harshness (9:123), and smite their heads (47:4).

now look Leviticus:
The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as one of your citizens; you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I the LORD am your God.
Leviticus 19:34

EVERYBODY is included. The two concepts could not be more different.

In today's Israel, the Muslims have freedom of religion, and they are represented in the Knesset, like any man living in Israel. They could have unparalleled peace and prosperity in Israel. But they don't want that. They want to see the Jews dead or pay them protection money.

It Islam had the golden rule, there would be no conflict in the middle east.

One more thing, SAM.... of course there are Muslims for whom the Golden Rules is important. But if they follow it, then they disobey Mohammed.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Eagle
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by Eagle »

manfred wrote:48:29 "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.”
- Which unbelievers is this speaking of
- Does the golden rule forbid retaliation in self-defence
- Does offensive warfare, including genocide of one's "neighbor", breach the golden rule?
manfred wrote:So when Mohammed tortures a man to find out where his money is, he following the golden rule?
Bring the proof

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manfred
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Re: The Golden Rule

Post by manfred »

- Which unbelievers is this speaking of
All.
Spoiler! :
(Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah) and this without the witness of Suhayl Ibn 'Amr. (And those with him) i.e. Abu Bakr, the first who believed in him and called the disbelievers with him to the religion of Allah (are hard against the disbelievers) this refers to 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab who was tough with the enemies of Allah, strong in the religion of Allah and a defender of Allah's Messenger (and merciful among themselves) and dutiful towards each other; this refers to 'Uthman Ibn 'Affan who was very dutiful and merciful towards the Muslims, and spent much of his money on them. (Thou (O Muhammad) seest them bowing) in prayer (and falling prostrate (in worship)) this refers to 'Ali Ibn Abi Talib who abundantly bowed and prostrated in prayer, (seeking bounty) reward (from Allah and (His) acceptance) acceptance of their Lord through jihad; this refers to Talhah and al-Zubayr who were very hard on, and tough with, the disbelievers. (The mark of them is on their foreheads from) the sign of their staying awake is on their faces from (the traces of prostration) from repeated prostration at night; this refers to Salman al-Farisi, Bilal, Suhayb and their fellow believers. (Such is their likeness) their description (in the Torah and their likeness) and their description in (in the Gospel like as sown corn) this is the Prophet (pbuh) (that) Allah (sendeth forth its shoot) i.e. Abu Bakr, the first to believe in him and the first to face the enemies of Allah (and strengtheneth it) and assists him; this is 'Umar who assisted the Prophet (pbuh) with his sword against the enemies of Allah (and riseth firm) He became strong with the wealth of 'Uthman which he used in jihad in the way of Allah (upon its stalk) and spread his message among Quraysh through 'Ali Ibn Abi Talib, (delighting the sowers) the Prophet (pbuh) was pleased with Talhah and al-Zubayr (that He may enrage the disbelievers with (the sight of) them) by means of Talhah and al-Zubayr. It is also said that from Allah's saying (Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah…) up to here was revealed in praise of those who took part in the swearing of allegiance at Ridwan and the sincere, obedient prophetic Companions in general. (Allah hath promised, unto such of them as believe) in Muhammad (pbuh) and the Qur'an (and do good works) and do acts of obedience in private between themselves and their Lord, (forgiveness) of their sins in this world and in the Hereafter (and immense reward) and abundant reward in the Garden'.
https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tM ... nguageId=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Does the golden rule forbid retaliation in self-defence
No, provided it is proportionate to the threat.
- Does offensive warfare, including genocide of one's "neighbor", breach the golden rule?
Yes.
Bring the proof
Kinana b. al-Rabi`, who had the custody of the treasure of B. al-Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came (T. was brought) to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kinana, "Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?" he said Yes. The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr b. al-`Awwam, "Torture him until you extract what he has," so he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud. (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah, translated as, The Life of Muhammad, (tr. A. Guillaume), Karachi: Oxford University Press, 1998, p. 515.)
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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