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Muslim questions about Christianity

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:03 pm
by uncung
manfred wrote:Uncung

Mary is not "God" in any Christian denomination.

One man, one wife. No divorce. That is where we find the bible's position ends up.

This thread is about a list of things sum said about ISLAM and Mohammed.



- Mary is God according to Catolic.
they asserted it strictly. The Third Secret of Our Lady of Fatima states that MARY IS GOD. It is a Dogma of Faith of the Holy Catholic Church. (Press Release September 1, 2005).

Catolic invocation also implies Mary is worshiped like a God. not like the ordinary saints.

"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20 ... _study.htm

"The Glories of Mary" book: says that Mary was given rulership over one half of the kingdom of God; Mary rules over the kingdom of mercy and Jesus rules over the kingdom of justice. It says also: people should pray to Mary as a mediator and look to her as an object of trust for answered prayer. there is no salvation outside of Mary.
the Catholic Church canonized this book openly and officially promoted by the Catholic Church, and his teachings have influenced popes.

Pope Pius IX said: "Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin. So that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her."

Mary has a certain position in devinity like God as Father sit in heaven, jesus as son sit at the right side of father and as the interemdiary between people and the Father, holy spirit as the spirit of God, and Mary as the mother of God who specially worshiped by catolic community.

one cannot deny that Mary is worhiped like God.

-Polygamy strictly is allowed and regulated in bible for people ho follow bible command. not for ancient people.
Bible at the same time not forbids at all polygamy.

Re: Muslim questions about Christianity

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:42 pm
by manfred
- Mary is God according to Catolic.
they asserted it strictly. The Third Secret of Our Lady of Fatima states that MARY IS GOD. It is a Dogma of Faith of the Holy Catholic Church. (Press Release September 1, 2005).


No, they don't, emphatically not.

Please look:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... 23a9p6.htm

This is an AUTHORITATIVE statement from the Vatican, not some book or another, which you did not even properly quote.

Now if you really want to know what the Catholic teaching is around Mary, I will happy tell you. It is not what you say, and I am surprised you think that.



-Polygamy strictly is allowed and regulated in bible for people ho follow bible command. not for ancient people.
Bible at the same time not forbids at all polygamy.


Well, the New Testament does not allow or regulate polygamy. Read Matthew 19.

Re: Muslim questions about Christianity

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:44 pm
by Centaur
lol mary is not god in any christian group but a creation, yet another blunder by Mo and another error in quran

Re: Muslim questions about Christianity

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:57 pm
by uncung
manfred wrote:
Well, the New Testament does not allow or regulate polygamy. Read Matthew 19.

display the verse over here.

Re: Muslim questions about Christianity

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:01 pm
by uncung
Centaur wrote:lol mary is not god in any christian group but a creation, yet another blunder by Mo and another error in quran

at least you can not deny she is worshiped like a God.

Re: Muslim questions about Christianity

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:10 pm
by manfred
as you wish:

From Matthew 19:

3 Some Pharisees came and tried to trap him with this question: “Should a man be allowed to divorce his wife for just any reason?”

4 “Haven’t you read the Scriptures?” Jesus replied. “They record that from the beginning ‘God made them male and female.” 5 And he said, “‘This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.’ 6 Since they are no longer two but one, let no one split apart what God has joined together.”

7 “Then why did Moses say in the law that a man could give his wife a written notice of divorce and send her away?” they asked.

8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted divorce only as a concession to your hard hearts, but it was not what God had originally intended. 9 And I tell you this, whoever divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery—unless his wife has been unfaithful.[”

10 Jesus’ disciples then said to him, “If this is the case, it is better not to marry!”


See also:

Mark 10:8
And the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh.



1 Corinthians 7:1

Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.



Polygamy was commonplace in the ancient world, but by the time of Jesus also the Jews had long stopped practising it

Re: Muslim questions about Christianity

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:25 pm
by manfred
at least you can not deny she is worshiped like a God.


Yes I can and I do. Please refer to the Vatican document I provided. In the Catholic and Orthodox Churches Mary is HONOURED, not worshipped.

Here is the standard way Mary is honoured in the Orthodox Church:



Θεοτόκε Παρθένε, χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη Μαρία, ὁ Κύριος μετὰ σοῦ. εὐλογημένη σὺ ἐν γυναιξί, καὶ εὐλογημένος ὁ καρπὸς τῆς κοιλίας σου, ὅτι Σωτῆρα ἔτεκες τῶν ψυχῶν ἡμῶν.
God-bearing Virgin rejoice, grace-filled Mary, the Lord with thee. Praised thou among women, and praised the fruit of thy womb, because it was the Saviour of our souls that thou barest.

In the Western (Catholic) Church there is a similar text:

AVE MARIA, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen



Have a close look what is says:

blessed art thou amongst women not "gods".

Mary is remembered and honoured for her faith and obedience, and for the role she played in the incarnation of God. Catholics ask Mary to pray for them, they do not pray TO her.


However, I will also say this: it s because of the confusion this very important distinction is causing, most protestant churches do not in fact honour Mary specially, in case people get confused.

Clearer now?

Re: Muslim questions about Christianity

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:51 pm
by uncung
where is the quote/part/verse state polygami/marry more than one wifes is not allowed?

Re: Muslim questions about Christianity

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:53 pm
by uncung
another different opinion among christian sects.

In his Ineffabilis Deus in 1854, Pope Pius IX established as dogma the immaculate conception of Mary, which preserved her from inheriting original sin. His concluding statements provide a good summary of the Catholic view of Mary.

Let all the children of the Catholic Church, who are so very dear to us, hear these words of ours. With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because, while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race. And since she has been appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth, and is exalted above all the choirs of angels and saints, and even stands at the right hand of her only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, she presents our petitions in a most efficacious manner. What she asks, she obtains. Her pleas can never be unheard.

tell the Catolic sect to stop praying towards Mary.

Re: Muslim questions about Christianity

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:11 pm
by manfred
uncung wrote:where is the quote/part/verse state polygami/marry more than one wifes is not allowed?


I gave you several. Have a closer look at this one:

1 Corinthians 7:1

Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.


It says:

each man shall have hos own WIFE not wives.
It also says each woman should have her OWN husband. If a husband married another woman, then they SHARE a husband, so neither has her OWN one.

In fact, there are several similar verses. In addition, you need to consult the actual teaching of the Church and not merely the bible to establish the actual doctrine on marriage.

In the OLD Testament, polygamy was seen not as something desirable, but simply as a "fact of life", as something that sometimes happens. It was deal with in that way, but trying to at least establish some rules even for this situation. Later, people understood that there are many things wrong with polygamy, and walked away from it.

After all, when we read the creation story we are told of Adam and Eve, just ONE man and ONE Woman, and that was the plan as originally devised.

All else is really not seen as ideal, but at best at times tolerated. Later Israelite kings were NOT allowed to have several wives, like David or Solomon had. And the bible is not shy in describing to us exactly these two had with several (or even many) wives.

Re: Muslim questions about Christianity

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:21 pm
by manfred
another different opinion among christian sects.


It is OK to have different opinions. What is wrong with that? In fact, most protestant churches would not really disagree with the Catholic teaching that Mary was a special person, an example to others, a person with a unique role. They merely do not want to acknowledge this within the context of a church service too much, to avoid confusion. As far as I am concerned that is a non-issue for Catholics.

tell the Catolic sect to stop praying towards Mary.


I have shown you the actual word used by Orthodox and Catholic Christians. When the old pope says "pray" he means "ask for intercession", as it is completely obvious when you look at the Ave Maria text.

Re: Muslim questions about Christianity

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:44 pm
by Nosuperstition
manfred wrote:
uncung wrote:where is the quote/part/verse state polygami/marry more than one wifes is not allowed?


I gave you several. Have a closer look at this one:

1 Corinthians 7:1

Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.


It says:

each man shall have hos own WIFE not wives.
It also says each woman should have her OWN husband. If a husband married another woman, then they SHARE a husband, so neither has her OWN one.

In fact, there are several similar verses. In addition, you need to consult the actual teaching of the Church and not merely the bible to establish the actual doctrine on marriage.

In the OLD Testament, polygamy was seen not as something desirable, but simply as a "fact of life", as something that sometimes happens. It was deal with in that way, but trying to at least establish some rules even for this situation. Later, people understood that there are many things wrong with polygamy, and walked away from it.

After all, when we read the creation story we are told of Adam and Eve, just ONE man and ONE Woman, and that was the plan as originally devised.

All else is really not seen as ideal, but at best at times tolerated. Later Israelite kings were NOT allowed to have several wives, like David or Solomon had. And the bible is not shy in describing to us exactly these two had with several (or even many) wives.


Charlemagne had twenty children over the course of his life with his ten wives/concubines


/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5211&p=85454&hilit=Charlemagne+had+wives#p85454

Then he ought to have been ex-communicated by now.Isn't it?Or is it that his achievements in the form of Christian Jihads for expansion of Christendom more than compensate this little weakness on his part?

Re: Muslim questions about Christianity

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:50 pm
by Nosuperstition
You do know that Christianity's 'main man' hundreds of years later, Charlemagne, openly was married to several women and had scores of mistresses- all with the active blessing of the Roman Church- right? Monogamous heterosexual marriage only came into play much later, as a matter of controlling property lines and for political stability.


//viewtopic.php?f=71&t=1803&p=27220&hilit=Charlemagne+had+wives#p27220

:cry: :cry: :cry:

Re: Muslim questions about Christianity

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:02 pm
by manfred
Charlemagne had twenty children over the course of his life with his ten wives/concubines


Charlemagne obviously only had ONE wife at a time, but he was married five times in all. (One marriage, I understand, was annulled and never consummated)

All but the last of his wives died quite young, possibly in childbirth (?)...

So he had 4 actual wives, or 5 if you want to count the annulled marriage, and all one after the other.

However, he did have "mistresses" as well, a practice often found in European "noble" houses, but not endorsed by the church in any way.

Polygamy within Christianity would be an anachronism for the times of Charlemagne. We have clear indication from the writings of the Church fathers that no polygamy was practised within the church at least since the second century, if not before. Tertullian, for example, explains that polygamy is unlawful, already in the second century, so no priest would have married any man already known to be married at the time.

As to mistresses, there are multiple pronouncements against this practice, and attempts by the church to curb that, but how does a simple bishop tell his king he should keep his hands off other women, without risking to loose his head?

However, we do find some protestant groups much later who practice polygamy, but by that time Charlemagne was long dead, and being dead is an impediment to marriage, I suppose.

Re: Muslim questions about Christianity

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:53 am
by Garudaman
I think "two become one flesh" can't forbid polygamy, because at every wedding again, a married couple is always calculated one :

1st marriage : 1 husband + 1 wife = 1 (husband & wife)
2nd marriage : 1 (husband & wife) + 1 wife = 1 (husband & 2 wives)
3rd marriage : 1 (husband & 2 wives) + 1 wife = 1 (husband & 3 wives)
& so on...


& since you're basing argument from Paul's letter, what/how do you think about the position of Paul in Christianity, whether as revelation transmitter/Messenger of God, or just interpreter like Ibn Kathir?

:)

Re: Muslim questions about Christianity

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:35 am
by manfred
Garudaman wrote:I think "two become one flesh" can't forbid polygamy, because at every wedding again, a married couple is always calculated one :

1st marriage : 1 husband + 1 wife = 1 (husband & wife)
2nd marriage : 1 (husband & wife) + 1 wife = 1 (husband & 2 wives)
3rd marriage : 1 (husband & 2 wives) + 1 wife = 1 (husband & 3 wives)
& so on...


& since you're basing argument from Paul's letter, what/how do you think about the position of Paul in Christianity, whether as revelation transmitter/Messenger of God, or just interpreter like Ibn Kathir?

:)



Well, that is your reading, but not the reading of Christians generally. What you say does not quite work, though...

It says TWO become one flesh.

2nd marriage : 1 (husband & wife) + 1 wife = 1 (husband & 2 wives)


Does the first wife also marry the second wife?
A husband a two wifes is a total of 3, not two, however many brackets you put round things.


what/how do you think about the position of Paul in Christianity, whether as revelation transmitter/Messenger of God, or just interpreter like Ibn Kathir?


Paul is a biblical author as much as any other. He was the Church's first major theologian, a man who helped the others to understand the events connected to Jesus.

Re: Muslim questions about Christianity

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:48 am
by Garudaman
manfred wrote:Does the first wife also marry the second wife?

the mean is polygamy must obtain approval/willingness from previous/first wife!

manfred wrote:A husband a two wifes is a total of 3, not two, however many brackets you put round things.

you forget if that two (husband & wife) have become one flesh, so the total is 2, not 3!

manfred wrote:]Paul is a biblical author as much as any other. He was the Church's first major theologian, a man who helped the others to understand the events connected to Jesus.

so, Paul's Letter counted as the Bible?

:)

Re: Muslim questions about Christianity

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:16 pm
by manfred
garudaman you are a funny guy...

you forget if that two (husband & wife) have become one flesh, so the total is 2, not 3!


So according to you, when a husband takes a second wife, HIS NEW WIFE ALSO marries the first wife? Can two women marry? Do they have sex together? Agreeing that her husband does something is not the same as doing it yourself:

I know a very nice woman in Indonesia. Her husband got caught having an affair with the wife of the local imam. The imam divorced his wife. The first wife of this man, the woman I know, told her husband she better marry this divorced woman so that she does not starve, as it was all his fault from the start. The two women never liked each other and hardly talk to each other. They live in separate places.

The way I look that this is like this: I do not judge what domestic arrangement people make for themselves. Live with three women, a donkey and a canary, for all I care. But a MARRIAGE is always between just ONE man and ONE woman.

Paul's Letter counted as the Bible?


Paul's letters are a PART of the Christian bible.

Re: Muslim questions about Christianity

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:43 pm
by Nosuperstition
manfred wrote:1 Corinthians 7:1

Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband
.


Might be it is the influence of Graeco-Roman society on Christianity and it is not the other way around.Gospel authors seemed to have copied what they might have felt is the best in pagan world.

The case for an automatic association between Christianity and monogamy is weakened further by the fact that socially imposed monogamy was first established in ancient Greece and Rome, centuries before Christianity even existed. Greco-Roman laws prohibited any man from having more than one official wife at a time.

So by the time Christianity began spreading through the Roman Empire in the first centuries AD, monogamy was already well-established.


http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/darwin-eternity/201109/why-we-think-monogamy-is-normal

Re: Muslim questions about Christianity

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:23 pm
by manfred
Yes, it is quite true that monogamy was the norm as well as the law on the Roman world, but not rigidly enforced by the Romans in the provinces, such as in in the Judea of the time of Jesus. Only just before the birth of Jesus, Herod the first had in fact had several wives, and this same king was confirmed by Augustus himself who also was a personal friend of his, and knew how many wives he had.


We know from Matthew 19 that Jesus's teachings on marriage also suggested monogamy, at a time and place when this was not necessarily the norm for all in Judea.

So when he did that, was he in fact promoting Roman values and ideas? Well, if that was his intention he would not have used biblical texts to support his argument, he would merely have say "follow the law of the land and marry only once". In fact he tried to put an argument from scripture in favour of monogamy.

We know also that there MIGHT have been incidences of polygamy in the very early church, as Paul says that church ELDERS should only have one wife. By implication this could mean others may have had more.

But we know that by the second century at the latest, Christianity had established the teachings on marriage we find today. After that, we do not find this this practice again until well after the the reformation.