indoctrination

Debate how Islam compares to other faiths and religions.
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manfred
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indoctrination

Post by manfred »

Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology. It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrination" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Are Muslims able to critically examine Islam?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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SAM
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Re: indoctrination

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:
Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology. It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrination" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Are Muslims able to critically examine Islam?
Yup..why not?

All Muslims are allowed to critically examine their understanding of Islamic doctrines knowledge..
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

frankie
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Re: indoctrination

Post by frankie »

SAM wrote:
manfred wrote:
Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology. It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrination" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Are Muslims able to critically examine Islam?
Yup..why not?

All Muslims are allowed to critically examine their understanding of Islamic doctrines knowledge..
SAM:

If Muslims "critically examine their understanding of Islamic doctrines knowledge" to the extent that they no longer wish to remain a Muslim,is there a penalty for leaving their faith?

Yes there is, death.

Volumn 009, Book 084, Hadith Number 057.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Ikrima : Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event,
reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it,
saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement
of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"


So much for "No compulsion in religion."

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SAM
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Re: indoctrination

Post by SAM »

frankie wrote:
SAM:

If Muslims "critically examine their understanding of Islamic doctrines knowledge" to the extent that they no longer wish to remain a Muslim,is there a penalty for leaving their faith?

Yes there is, death.

Volumn 009, Book 084, Hadith Number 057.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Ikrima : Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event,
reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it,
saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement
of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"


So much for "No compulsion in religion."
Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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manfred
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Re: indoctrination

Post by manfred »

And of course Jews and Christians routinely put apostates to death, just as Muslims do in some places?

Muslims have a problem in trying to examine Islam freely. if they ever really do, the will invariably dump Islam. It does not stand up to examination. And that is why Mullahs always want resort to violence. It is the only answer they have.

You are showing us a mechanism of how indoctrination works:

You are not asking "Should people have freedom to choose their religion?" or "Who is harmed if I change my religion? If it does no harm to other people why should I get punished for it?"

Instead you are looking for ANYTHING to support the idea that apostates should be killed. You allow yourself the ludicrous idea if some ancient author wrote something to that effect in the bible 3500 years ago, this "proves" that Mohammed was right.

If it had said the opposite (as some bible passages certainly do) you would claim the text is corrupted. Either way, you have not even begun to examine things. All you do is to look for reason NOT to examine things.

That is indoctrination in action.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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SAM
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Re: indoctrination

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:And of course Jews and Christians routinely put apostates to death, just as Muslims do in some places?

Muslims have a problem in trying to examine Islam freely. if they ever really do, the will invariably dump Islam. It does not stand up to examination. And that is why Mullahs always want resort to violence. It is the only answer they have.
My hometown no Mullah...Only Afghanistan....
You are showing us a mechanism of how indoctrination works:

You are not asking "Should people have freedom to choose their religion?" or "Who is harmed if I change my religion? If it does no harm to other people why should I get punished for it?"
Yup...after mature enough to make their own decision to find out the truth..like me :*)
Instead you are looking for ANYTHING to support the idea that apostates should be killed. You allow yourself the ludicrous idea if some ancient author wrote something to that effect in the bible 3500 years ago, this "proves" that Mohammed was right.
Allah was right not Muhammad.. because Allah All-Knowing and the Most-Wise
If it had said the opposite (as some bible passages certainly do) you would claim the text is corrupted. Either way, you have not even begun to examine things. All you do is to look for reason NOT to examine things.
The same thing to you and other member of FFi crooks looking for a reason squarely rejected that view..
That is indoctrination in action.
That's Christian indoctrination not Islam
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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manfred
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Re: indoctrination

Post by manfred »

Sam could you try to reply with something coherent? How can I reply to something that simply makes no sense?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

frankie
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Re: indoctrination

Post by frankie »

SAM wrote:
frankie wrote:
SAM:

If Muslims "critically examine their understanding of Islamic doctrines knowledge" to the extent that they no longer wish to remain a Muslim,is there a penalty for leaving their faith?

Yes there is, death.

Volumn 009, Book 084, Hadith Number 057.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Ikrima : Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event,
reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it,
saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement
of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"


So much for "No compulsion in religion."
Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."

SAM:

Christians and Jews are free to examine their scriptures, and frequently do, they are also free to leave their faith without penalty.

Muslims cannot do either, the Quran commands against asking questions, in case they lose their faith, and the death penalty is pronounced for apostasy.

Conclusion:
There is compulsion in Islam.

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uncung
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Re: indoctrination

Post by uncung »

islam allow questionnaeri/examination. concerning to death punishment of apostater, it is mere the rule.

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SAM
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Re: indoctrination

Post by SAM »

frankie wrote:

SAM:

Christians and Jews are free to examine their scriptures, and frequently do, they are also free to leave their faith without penalty.
True..after they found out their Bible and Torah scriptures full of lies and corrupted..So, Christian and Jews converts to Islam when they realized that 100% Islam is a True Religion... :lol:
Muslims cannot do either, the Quran commands against asking questions, in case they lose their faith, and the death penalty is pronounced for apostasy.
Can you provide me a primary source.."quran commands against asking questions"..Dont avoid this question.. :heh:

Conclusion:
Christian and Jewish.. They love lies they hate the truth...
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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SAM
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Location: Arasy

Re: indoctrination

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:Sam could you try to reply with something coherent? How can I reply to something that simply makes no sense?
You should ask me again..
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

frankie
Posts: 2612
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: indoctrination

Post by frankie »

SAM wrote:
frankie wrote:

SAM:

Christians and Jews are free to examine their scriptures, and frequently do, they are also free to leave their faith without penalty.
True..after they found out their Bible and Torah scriptures full of lies and corrupted..So, Christian and Jews converts to Islam when they realized that 100% Islam is a True Religion... :lol:
Muslims cannot do either, the Quran commands against asking questions, in case they lose their faith, and the death penalty is pronounced for apostasy.
Can you provide me a primary source.."quran commands against asking questions"..Dont avoid this question.. :heh:

Conclusion:
Christian and Jewish.. They love lies they hate the truth...
SAM:
Can you provide me a primary source.."quran commands against asking questions"
Quran 5.101
O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.

Quran 5.102
Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.

The penalty for a Muslim losing his faith is death.

Sahih Al Bukhari:
Volumn 009, Book 083, Hadith Number 017.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Abdullah : Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be
worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a
married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves
the Muslims."

Volumn 009, Book 084, Hadith Number 057.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Ikrima : Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event,
reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it,
saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement
of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Nosuperstition
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Re: indoctrination

Post by Nosuperstition »

Christians and Jews are free to examine their scriptures, and frequently do, they are also free to leave their faith without penalty.
True..after they found out their Bible and Torah scriptures full of lies and corrupted..So, Christian and Jews converts to Islam when they realized that 100% Islam is a True Religion... :lol:
As if any religious scripture is full of truth or true stories.Only thing is the converts are just given an overview of their new religion without in-depth knowledge as that is likely to turn them away totally from that religion.

And which religious scriptures can totally stand up to the truths established by science?
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

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manfred
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Re: indoctrination

Post by manfred »

Do religions teach science at all?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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Garudaman
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Re: indoctrination

Post by Garudaman »

QS. 5:101. O you who have believed, do not ask about things which, if they are shown to you, will distress you. But if you ask about them while the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be shown to you. Allah has pardoned that which is past; and Allah is Forgiving and Forbearing.

Quran verse was revealed on/when certain event which relating to that verse, & those who don't live when that event happen sometimes can't understand the Quran verse which related to that event!

QS. 5:102. A people asked such [questions] before you; then they became thereby deniers.

deny something that isn't/hasn't been understood is mistake, because it isn't necessarily wrong!

;)

Nosuperstition
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Re: indoctrination

Post by Nosuperstition »

manfred wrote:Do religions teach science at all?
Nope.That is why during the period of British rule in India,a phrase came to being in Telugu.Bhoomi ballaparupugaa undi ani intlo ,golangaa undi ani badilo cheppakoodadu.It means you should simultaneously not teach your children at home that the earth is flat(as per some Hindu scriptures ) and teach in school that it is a globle(as per science).

However those who do not know that in their scriptures the earth is described flat will continue to believe in both religion and science as they do not know that both these contradict one another.
Last edited by Nosuperstition on Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

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manfred
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Re: indoctrination

Post by manfred »

Ok, let me put it another way.... maybe you have occasionally read a good story, a novel perhaps? What makes the novel a good one? All the characters in it are invented, so it obviously not a "true" story in the sense that it describes past events. But is it therefore always pointless?

To me there are different kinds of truth. Scientific and historical, sure,but also moral truths or simply truths about our lives. Human truths, if you like.

Sometimes people use the medium of a story (or even a painting or a statue) to convey something about those kind of truths.


So some Hindu texts suggest the earth is flat. Well, that is not a big surprise because that was the assumption for many hundreds of years, almost everywhere.

But if if look beyond those kind of flaws, what is the real message? Does the text actually want to teach you astronomy or does it want to say something about a completely different topic? Well, if it is not about astronomy, why do we get side tracked?

There was a Roman writer who told many stories about talking animals. We all know animals do not talk as such. So does that mean his stories are just nonsense? Well, if you take your time to read them, you find they are not about animals at all, but about people. Different types of people. The way they interact. Human nature.


Sure some stories are just entertainment, but it you take your time to really look you find interesting insights in the most unexpected of places.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Nosuperstition
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Re: indoctrination

Post by Nosuperstition »

But if if look beyond those kind of flaws, what is the real message? Does the text actually want to teach you astronomy or does it want to say something about a completely different topic? Well, if it is not about astronomy, why do we get side tracked?
No but the religious texts are supposed to be seen as all-encompassing.That is the reason why most scientific and mathematical calculations of sub-continent are available as being mentioned in the holy texts of Aryan religions.But fact of the matter is they got it wrong sometimes.Shows that the texts are not infallible.
Sure some stories are just entertainment, but it you take your time to really look you find interesting insights in the most unexpected of places.
Those insights which are mostly true are of course about human nature.Here they cannot err as to err amounts to loosening of control on the minds of people.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

Nosuperstition
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Re: indoctrination

Post by Nosuperstition »

http://math-fail.com/2009/07/speed-math ... atics.html

There exist mathematical aphroisms in Vedas but to cling on only to them and then deny further knowledge or close youself or try to insulate or cocoon yourself saying that 'anni mana vedalalo unnaisha'(everything is there in our Vedas,no more further learning is needed) is plain stupid.Vigorous learning in Europe with money obtained from conquest of Americas has resulted in development of science that is far ahead of what is taught in Vedas and Puranas.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

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Hombre
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Re: indoctrination

Post by Hombre »

SAM wrote:Yup..why not?

All Muslims are allowed to critically examine their understanding of Islamic doctrines knowledge..
Of course, Muslim are allowed to do so, AS LONG they blindly uphold the belief, Mohammad is the most perfect man ever lived. As long as no criticism of his acts are made. That is the Islamic version of "freedom".

Like H. Ford used to say: " you can have your car in any color - as long as it is Black

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