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Alleged Bible corruption

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:10 pm
by frankie
Muslims claim the Bible has been corrupted,i.e.has been altered by man.

However,Muslims freely quote from the Bible to justify their claims that Mohammed is prophesied in the Bible, that Jesus did not die by crucifixion,neither was he divine,(even though Allah allegedly commanded Jesus's birth) nor did he rise from death, the three core principles of Christian faith.

How do Muslims reconcile these conflicting assertions?

Re: Alleged Bible corruption

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:59 pm
by sum
Hello frankie

It is no problem at all for a muslim. From birth onwards they have received reinforcing doses of cognitive dissonance.

sum

Re: Alleged Bible corruption

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:17 am
by frankie
sum wrote:Hello frankie

It is no problem at all for a muslim. From birth onwards they have received reinforcing doses of cognitive dissonance.

sum


sum:
I would have to agree with you.

But a Muslim perspective on this would be very helpful to explain more how they view their faith.

Any Muslim up for the challenge?

Re: Alleged Bible corruption

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:49 pm
by Nosubmission
The Qur'an was corrupted when Muhammad was alive! :D

Here is an interesting textual analysis showing how the Quranİc author made a mess while trying to plagiarize a biblical story:

http://answering-islam.org/authors/masi ... tion2.html

Re: Alleged Bible corruption

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:06 am
by Eagle
Nosubmission wrote:The Qur'an was corrupted when Muhammad was alive! :D

Here is an interesting textual analysis showing how the Quranİc author made a mess while trying to plagiarize a biblical story:

http://answering-islam.org/authors/masi ... tion2.html


Your whole article, dear "one happy christianS"/Masud Masihiyyen, only shows how poor your reading skills are. I had a look at it, and here is the clearing below, of all of your misunderstandings.

Messengers from God visited Ibrahim in the shape of ordinary men. He received them in his home and offered them the best food he could offer 11:69 but upon their refusal to eat 51:27"Will you not eat?" he felt uneasy about them 11:70,51:28"So he conceived in his mind a fear on account of them" thinking their refusal of hospitality was due to evil intentions 15:52"Surely we are afraid of you". To fend off his fear, they began by stating that their aim is Lut's people, meaning not his household 11:70"Fear not, surely we are sent to Lut's people". (The argument that "the revelation of this news was explicitly bound to the promise of Isaac’s birth" because Gen18:16-22"After all, Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation" is far fetched since firstly the passage doesnt link Isaac's birth with the promise but also God's promise to Abraham even in Genesis, precedes Isaac's birth meaning theres no connection between the 2 at all).

Ibrahim had remained in his guests' presence despite his initial fear while his wife had retreated nearby which is why he spoke for both himself and his wife "we are afraid of you". Since only Ibrahim was now facing the messengers, they only addressed him at first, but his wife who was standing nearby smiled as she overheard the conversation and realized that the guests who behaved so strangely werent concerned by her household but were after another people 11:71"And his wife was standing (by), so she laughed". The messengers proceeded by giving to Ibrahim the good news of "A" (a single) son 15:53"surely we give you the good news of a boy, possessing knowledge". This was a reward from Allah for Ibrahim's patience and obedience 14:39"Praise be to Allah, Who has given me in old age Ismail and Ishaq; most surely my Lord is the Hearer of prayer". Ibrahim thanks God in this Meccan verse for granting him only 2 sons as a result of a prayer at a very advanced age, and Jacob came as a nafila/addition 21:72 from Isaac which is why this same verse does not mention Ismail. When verses such as 19:49 speak of Allah giving Jacob to Ibrahim that giving does not only signify the giving of a son, for of Moses it is said a few verses further on, "We gave him his brother Aaron, a prophet" though Aaron was older than Moses and his brother. Also, Abraham as well as Ishmael and Isaac are said to be Jacob's non contemporary family 2:133.

Then addressing Ibrahim's wife, the messengers 11:71"gave her the good news of Ishaq and after Ishaq of Yaqoub". Sarah was not only told that she would give birth, but also that her progeny will continue and this verse makes it clear that Jacob would come from Isaac, not from her 11:72"shall I bear "A" (a single) son..". Not only were she and her husband rewarded with children at an age when according to the common physical laws they could not beget any, but they were also granted such extraordinary children as have not been granted to any one else in the world. No household in history was granted 4 prophets in succession. It was the Prophet Abraham alone whose line continued to be blessed with Prophethood for three generations, and the illustrious Prophets like Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph emerged from his house.

In contrast to his wife, Ibrahim's initial reaction to the good news was an astonishing reiteration of it as he knew that from the point of the natural laws, the birth of such a child by him was a remote matter 15:54"Do you give me this good news in my old age?". But from God's point, who had already displayed many miracles to him such as the manner in which he was saved from his people, and who in addition had already granted him a firstborn at an old age, Ibrahim knew that all is possible so could it hopefully be that this good news is from God, or was it from them "Of what do you give me good news". This is followed by a reassuring confirmation by the messengers 15:55 and a rhetorical question by Ibrahim 15:56"He said: And who despairs of the mercy of his Lord but the erring ones?" This implies "I am not of the erring-ones who despair of God's mercy". Ibrahim's wife on the other hand was overcome by grief because she thought that even to God, the realization of such a thing would be far off 11:72"This is a strange thing indeed" but she was reassured while at the same time rebuked for her skepticism 11:73"Do you deem Allah's command a strange thing? The mercy of Allah and His blessings are on you, O people of the house, surely He is Praised, Glorious".
The name "Isaac" implies laughter, out of joy or mockery, but the name is connected to Ibrahim's rejoicing and believing the good news of Isaac's birth, reacting with questions which are positive assertions Gen17:17 not to Sarah's laughter in the Tanakh who did not believe and ridiculed which actually displeased God and caused her, out of fear, to lie and deny having laughed at the news Gen18:12-15. Both Ishmael, implying divine acceptance of prayers, and Isaac, implying laughter, are names connected to Ibrahim who dearly prayed God for a first born and rejoiced at the news of a second son, who were both granted miraculously to him 14:39"Praise be to Allah, Who has given me in old age Ismail and Ishaq; most surely my Lord is the Hearer of prayer".

As all fear had gone from Ibrahim and the good news conveyed entirely to both him and his wife 11:74, he began to inquire further on the messengers' mission to Lut's people which they initially aluded to 51:32-4"They said: Surely we are sent to a guilty people, That we may send down upon them stone of clay, Sent forth from your Lord for the extravagant" 29:31"Surely we are going to destroy the people of this town, for its people are unjust". This dreadful news concerned Ibrahim, the 11:75"forbearing, tender-hearted" not only because of Lut's and righteous people's presence in this town about to be annihilated 15:59,29:32 but also because he, who left the case of those who would eventually stray from among his offspring to God's forgiveness and mercy 14:36, thought Lut's nation could be given further respite to mend their ways 11:76"leave off this, surely the decree of your Lord has come to pass, and surely there must come to them a chastisement that cannot be averted".

Re: Alleged Bible corruption

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:26 am
by frankie
Eagle:

Please answer my question.

How do Muslims justify their claim that Jews and Christians tampered with their scriptures,whilst quoting from them to say that Mohammed is prophesied in them both and,that Jesus did not die by crucifixion,neither was he divine,(even though Allah allegedly commanded Jesus's birth) nor did he rise from death, the three core principles of Christian faith.

Re: Alleged Bible corruption

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:43 pm
by pr126
Muslims quote from the bible all the time.

So they must know which parts are authentic, - worthy of quote, and which parts have been "corrupted" - to be discarded. :wacko:

After all this time, there should be a definitive list of any and all "corruptions" of the bible. But there isn't. Allah should have left some sort of guidance.

Re: Alleged Bible corruption

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:57 pm
by Eagle
Nosubmission wrote:The Qur'an was corrupted when Muhammad was alive! :D

Here is an interesting textual analysis showing how the Quranİc author made a mess while trying to plagiarize a biblical story:

http://answering-islam.org/authors/masi ... tion2.html


By the way "one happy ChristianS"/Masud Masihiyyen, i also noticed in that Abraham article a link to another of your works where you display your "baffling" misunderstandings and "awkward" interpretation of sura Maryam, so i'll take an hour to educate you properly on that matter http://answering-islam.org/authors/masi ... stery.html

At an advanced point of her pregnancy Mary withdrew to a remote place that she might deliver, away from the Temple in order to escape any accusation of the people at a supposedly chaste and pious woman devoted in the sanctuary to God's service conceiving outside wedlock and in addition in the sanctuary itself and under the guardianship of Zakkariya one of the most highly regarded Temple devotee and prophet 19:22. As the suffering of childbirth began, she sat under a palm tree where a voice called from beneath her position, indicating to her the presence of a water source directly under her and the tree, and comforting her with words telling her how the sustenance of food and water is abundantly put within easy reach 19:23-6. God was again, as He did during her seclusion in the Temple, taking charge of sustaining her easily.

Now God inspired her, taking in charge the responsibility of answering the critics among her people with compelling evidence 19:26"Then if you see any mortal, say: Surely I have vowed a fast to the Beneficent Allah, so I shall not speak to any man today". As a woman known for her chastity because of having lived secluded in dedication to Allah's worship all her life, Mary was received with suspicion when she came back to her people with the newborn. A priest's daughter had to exemplify modesty and piety and tradition asserts that should she commit a sin such as fornication she would suffer a punishment worse than that of regular women. So to remove all doubts -justifiable to some extent- of seeing an unmarried woman supposed to represent the epitome of piety and chastity conceiving and bringing forth a child, Isa while in the craddle began speaking clearly, identifying himself and his future role 19:27-33. Mary could not bring evidence of her virginity anymore so the only way she could dispell all doubts was to prove this child is a miracle from God so he cannot be the product of sin. The blessed Mary, who was previously divinely ordered to remain silent in the face of criticism simply "pointed to him" in order to let him speak and prove he is from God, not from any human which Isa did by clarifying his identity, purity, and the fact he has been made "dutiful" to his mother only, contrary to Yahya was was made "dutiful" to both parents 19:14 meaning Isa had no father contrary to Yayha. Despite witnessing that miracle, some among Mary's folk remained obdurate in their position as regards her chastity, contending with others who were convinced of her innocence. Contrary to their initial criticism that wasnt flagged as a sin, their persistence in this position is now qualified as disbelief deserving punishement in the hereafter 19:37. All scriptures bear testimony to such kind of people who keep their eyes closed to all kinds of signs.

They were then given 23:50"shelter on a lofty ground having meadows and springs" until Jesus' ministry. When he began his ministry among the Israelites, denouncing them, exposing their leaders for their hypocrisy, moral degradation and its consequences, those same disbelieving Jews who had absolutely no ground for suspicion about his miraculous birth without father because God had caused the whole community to stand as witness to the miracle, started accusing Mary of the most grievious calumny in order to put a stain on Jesus. In their mind, this stain would discredit his claim of prophethood, because of being the product of fornication. They were once again mistreating, rejecting, and blaspheming against a prophet sent to them with that which they did not like despite witnessing clear signs. At this point, Allah qualified their accusation of being a "monstruous calumny", just as He qualified their disagreement after seeing the miracle of the talking infant a disbelief 19:37, because they knew it for certain that Mary and her son were absolutely free from this taint. It wasnt real honest suspicion, which they might be harboring in their hearts as they did in the beginning when they suddenly saw Mary with a child for the first time, but it was a pure, invented calumny with a clear evil aim; opposing the Truth and hindering the people from the Way of God. That is why Allah declared it to be "disbelief" in both 4:156 and 19:37, in addition to it being a calumny 4:156.

Towards the end of your article, there is a comparative chronology of events between pseudo-Matthew and the Quran in sura Maryam, where you rightly point out how the latter ommits the yarn about pregnant Mary travelling to Bethleem to give birth in order to escape Herod's mass killings. But there are many other inconsistencies equally omitted from the traditionaly accepted Christian fable.

If we turn to your Greek NT in Matt2, Jesus had to be born before 4 BC when Herod died, and at least in 6BC since he is reported to have been taken away to Egypt (an effort by Matthew2's writer to create a prophecy using Hosea11 that isnt prophecy at all if read in context) to escape Herod's order to kill all infants 2 years old and younger to avoid the coming of the Messiah (neither Josephus nor any other source mentions the mass killing – and yet they detailed Herod's real crimes at great length. Matthew2's writer again attempted to match a supposed OT prophecy found in Jeremiah31 which is a comment on the Israelite captivity in Babylon and far from being a prediction of mass baby killings is actually a reassurance by God that the children will be brought back safely. Again, context exposes the NT writers' agenda).
Yet in Luke's gospel which is known for its confusion of historical facts such as in Lk3:1 speaking of Lysanias being the ruler of Abilene in Syria in the 15th year of Tiberius' reign yet Lysanias was murdered 50 years earlier according to Josephus, if we consider the information given in Luke2 then Jesus had to be born 10 years later than 4BC, in 6CE where the Census of Quirinius is noted yet the same Luke says Jesus was born when Herod was King of Judea Lk1:5 and Caesar Augustus was the emperor of Rome Lk2:1 yet those three occurrences (the census, Herod and Caesar's reigns) never overlap. There was no such census in the days of Herod, and Quirinius came to power 10 years after Herod's death. That is without even getting into the issue of the absurdity of Quirinus' census to have occured as depicted in your Greek NT.

Then there is also the fact that your same Greek NT that insists on the fulfillement of an ancient OT prophecy regarding the virgin birth (putting aside for now the fact that such a prophecy doesnt exist, except in the infamous Christian corrupted Greek Septuagint in Isaiah7:14) paints Mary as being engaged before her pregnancy and married when she delivered meaning the virgin birth was a secret yet this allegedly was of the most crucial fulfilements of OT prophecies the Israelites had to know from the very beginning to identify the awaited savior Matt1:22"All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel". Jesus had to be known as special since the very beginning according to specific criteria in order to be identified, yet not only was the virgin birth obscured to the people through the absurd introduction of a husband (whom the authors needed to establish a genealogy to king David, which turned out to be a failed attempt but that is another discussion) to Mary but your Greek NT also repeatedly says how the young Jesus was completely unknown in any particular way prior to his ministry in adulthood, see Matt13 for example.

Interesting isnt it, that the illiterate prophet Muhammad and his team of archeologists and historians managed to sort out during their plagiarism of your pseudo-Matthew, and your Greek NT, the anachronisms, fictions and absurdities from the reality.

I see you also bring up the issue of the infancy Gospel of Thomas. During his ministry, these Israelites to whom he was preaching the return to the straight path kept rejecting him, despite the miracles he performed. Some of these miracles the Quran mentions 3:49 while the NT omits Jn20:30"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book" Jn21:25"Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written". The bird from clay miracle for example is reported outside the canonical Gospels in the infancy Gospel of Thomas, although it connects this miracle to his childhood along with the ability to speak in the craddle, while the Quran only qualifies the ability to speak in the craddle as a childhood miracle (serving the purpose of clearing Mary of the slanders), and then proceeds to connect the bird from clay miracle to his ministry to the Israelites, coming to them and preaching and performing other miracles with Allah's permission like his healing powers and knowledge of the unseen 3:49-55,5:110.
Obviously there would have been no reason to give Jesus such powers in his childhood, because he needed them in adulthood in support of his ministry to demonstrate certain points.

Just because this book was rejected as apocrypha, does not mean it was rejected for all of it's contents and besides, a man's apocrypha was another's scripture until very late in the canonization process of the Bible, as seen with the book of revelation regarded as apocrypha and then finally canonized. The apocryphal Gospels were rejected because of many reasons including doubtful authorship yet the canonized scriptures arent that much more authentic. Some books are considered apocrypha by the western church and scripture by the eastern church. When comparing the canonical and apocryphal writings, it isnt a case of first-hand versus second-hand information. It is merely a choice between doctrinal points of view, with the choice being made by men with a doctrinal bias. Some have been partially preserved such as the Gospel of Thomas considered the most important non-canonical Gospel, which was for the first 2 centuries considered holy scriptures along with the gospels of Matthaias or the "The Twelve", Acts of Andrew or Acts of John, Epistle of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas (the last 2 were still included in the codex sinaiticus the earliest complete copy of the NT that is dated to around the year 350), the Didache or the Apocalypse of Peter. On the other hand rejected by the early church fathers were Paul’s letter to Philemon, the second and third letters of John, the second letter of Peter and the General Epistle of Jude, all part of the canon after Christianity became the state religion.
The Book of Revelations was considered apocrypha for the first 200 years of the Christian Church and then suddenly was considered God-inspired.

Re: Alleged Bible corruption

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:14 pm
by frankie
Eagle,

I am still waiting for your answers.

Who/what did Mohammed worship before Islam?

How do Muslims justify their claim that Jews and Christians tampered with their scriptures,whilst quoting from them to say that Mohammed is prophesied in them both and,that Jesus did not die by crucifixion,neither was he divine,(even though Allah allegedly commanded Jesus's birth) nor did he rise from death, the three core principles of Christian faith?

Re: Alleged Bible corruption

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:06 pm
by frankie
frankie wrote:Eagle,

I am still waiting for your answers.

Who/what did Mohammed worship before Islam?

How do Muslims justify their claim that Jews and Christians tampered with their scriptures,whilst quoting from them to say that Mohammed is prophesied in them both and,that Jesus did not die by crucifixion,neither was he divine,(even though Allah allegedly commanded Jesus's birth) nor did he rise from death, the three core principles of Christian faith?



Eagle is too afraid to answer either of these questions,but will happily denigate Christianity and Judaism by quoting from their alleged corrupted scriptures to justify a faith which is violent at its core,said to be for the guidance for humanity to follow for all time.

Alleged Bible corruption

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:50 am
by AlexmenCorn
Do you think there are any bible passages where Islam/radical Islam, ISIS/ISIL, jihad and their goals ETC. are prophesied?

Re: Alleged Bible corruption

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:00 am
by pr126
Not that I know of.

There is no radical Islam. There is just Islam.