This is a debate between you and I, why are there other people posting in this thread?
Their posts must be deleted or moved to comment section, mustn't they?
Secondly, I may reply to your three posts one by one, so don't produce your reply before I have presented my refutation to all of your posts and whatever you have had said by now.
Having said this, we continue...
KhaliL FarieL wrote:
Khalil Fariel wrote:
First of all, let us see what Quran says about Jews in general. This is excerpt from one of my articles which is highly relevant here:
Jews are an accursed lot according to Quran. Allah cursed them not once but many times. Allah cursed Iblis (Satan) only on a single occasion, but never hesitated to renew his curse in the case of Jews. It doesn't confine the curse to a past generation of Jews. The curse is with them until the resurrection day. See Quran:
The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He give and spends (of His bounty) as He pleases. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loves not those who do mischief. [Quran Chapter 5: 64]
It is about those Jews who say "Allah's hand is tied up" that is those Jews who go against God.
Do you really understand what are you talking about?
This rhetorical question is unwelcomed.
You argue, the verse 5:64 is all about “those Jews who go against god”. But did you bother to check what I posted? The verse itself says “Allah has placed enmity and hatred among Jews till the day of judgment. All the Jews who goes against Allah = disbelieves in your Allah is cursed by your god and are doomed to bear mutual hatred and enmity. This is a curse Jews are to bear until the Day of Judgment.
Or do you have an argument present day Jews or any kinds of Jews are exempted from this? There is not a single Jew who believes in your Allah. So, the verse I brought in my argument is relevant to all Jews until the Day of Judgment. Otherwise, you will have to argue the god Jews and Muslims believe is the same.
The Jews who fall in the category of "Among them there are those who are on the right path..." are not going against God. Disbelief in God is a sin, however, actively going against God means you commit mischief on this earth.
As such, Qur'an asks us to be fair and just to those "who do not fight us on the basis of our religion."
Now you will ask me references for this verses, I thought you would already know about them being a self-proclaimed intellectual on Islam, however, I am disappointed at your ignorance or pretence
There are they:
[Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them. For Allah loves those who are just. Allah only forbids you with regard to those who fight you for your faith, and drive you out of your homes and support others in driving you out, from turning to them for protection (or taking them as wali). Those who seek their protection they are indeed wrong- doers.] (Al-Mumtahinah 60: 8-9)
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
This does your argument in, right?
Now I will look if I could also find the reference for the verse "there are among the people of book who are on the right path", however, the above should do it for you, or importantly, do it for the purpose of the argument.
Balls_of_Titanium_1 wrote: There are also statements in the Qur'an to the effect that some of the people of the book are on the right course.
I would say, please bring them here so that I can deal with them. At the moment, I am not in a mood to blindly trust your words. Please back up your claims.
Balls_of_Titanium_1 wrote: As understood by Muslims, Qur'an speaks against evil and those who commit evil and go against God. As such the spirit of Muslim understanding of these statements is totally different from how you have charaterized it.
(Let me tell you this secret: If you speak something on behalf of Islam and Muslims you have to back it up with sources. The above is a very shallow claim and I can ignore it if I want to. But I choose to respond you this time, but next time source your statements)
I am a Muslims, so I can very well say something on the behalf of Muslims.
Can my Muslim please define what is evil?
Evil is that which is prohibited by God.
Disblief in Allah and the last prophet is evil, however, those evils are those that are left for God to address. Other evils are those that create mischeif on the land, for them the teachings are different.
I brought a verse in what I see Jews are saying something against god and they are being cursed by your Allah. Does evil mean saying something against Allah?
Yes, and also - saying such things has implications. By working actively against Islam, you are trying to destroy the religion of God on this earth. The implications are great.
If I say “your Allah is a brothel keeper” does that mean I am an evil person? In what sense..?
Yes, this will make you an evil person. In what sense? In the sense that you curse God.
You underpin the contention in Islam anything that is evil means disobeying god and prophet. Paedophilia, genocide, rape, banditry… none of these are evils because all these acts are committed by Islam’s prophet and a prophet can not do any evil deeds. Isn’t it so Muslim?
I want you to hold your horses.
Accepting your invitation to debate has by no means given you a licence to attack my belief on my face in the above manner.
Scathing, uncultured attacks on the opponent's religious figures is considered not conducive for a civil debate.
Are you really looking for a proper dialogue?
These kinds of statements are unacceptable if you are looking for a serious dialogue.
If you continue, this debate will be terminated.
It is one thing to have a casual discussion on this forum (in which case I may ignore certain remarks) but giving you time in a specially designated thread, means I am directly talking to you as in giving you importance.
So keep your tone under control and show that you deserve my special time. If you continue like the above, you don't.
You started out courteously with me in other threads, you must maintain that.
Consider this a condition for the debate.
In this thread, you can only argue for the proposition you have put up. You are only allowed to do that in this thread.
I am not interested in your opinion in other regards. Therefore you should not express them in this thread, especially if they are offensive towards my beliefs.
We didn't clear up the conditions for the debate a priori, so we may do so as we go along.
Then the only thing that is evil is saying something against Allah. It is what Jews did in the verses I brought and they are cursed for it.
It is just part of it. They did many more things. You can't pretend ignorance about them.
Moreover a highly retributive Allah is not going to let Jews off the hook but the curse is extended to the end of times. That means, Jews have to bear the curse of Allah until heat death..!
Yes, the kind of Jews, and that also applies to other non-Muslims, who work against God.
And I am yet to get what does it mean going against Allah? Do you mean any act? How can a mere mortal (who can not even be of any regard by the creator and sustainer of this universe or universes) go against god?
By disobeying him, by working actively against his teachings in this world.
Do you by any means referring to those who produce surface to air missiles? (Since your god is there upstairs in heavens seated on a glorious throne, I have my reasons to doubt so)
Your childish remarks show that your mind still needs developement.
Thus these must also be avoided in an proper dialogue.
You cannot talk in any demeaning way about "my God" if you want this debate to properly function.
You can only put forward the proposition on which I agreed to debate with you.
Balls_of_Titanium_1 wrote: Muslims have no problem separating a good non-Muslim or a Jew from a bad non-Muslim or a Jew. This thinking is due to other statements in the Qur'an.
Really..? Interesting… but sources? You say there are some statements in Quran but didn’t produce them. What makes you keep it to yourself when in fact here there is a force of circumstance that dictates you to bring it up?
Any claim from you on behalf of Muslims (Islam) will be subjected to dismiss if it is not supported by your authentic sources. Please bear this in your mind, so that you can comply with this next time you come up.
And any claim you make on the behalf of Muslims will be subjected to dismissal if you not only bring supporting material but also clearly link that supporting material and your argument.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... TheScholar
Muslims hate Kufr, or disbelief in Allah, the Almighty. Since we love all people, we hate their disobedience of Allah, the Most High. So, even when people deny the existence of Allah we do not hate them personally; however, we hate their disbelief and disobedience of Allah, Exalted be He. This case is very similar to that of a doctor and a patient. The doctor does not hate the patient or the sick person himself or herself, rather he or she hates the disease and tries every possible means to cure the disease and help the patient to recover. We Muslims hate disbelief and disobedience of Allah and we are striving and sparing no effort to do away with this disease and cure people’s sickness and help them become obedient servants of Allah (God).
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Just as what I said.
KhaliL FarieL wrote: For a true believer, who believes in Allah and Muhammad, there can not be any difference between Satan and Jews, because both are cursed by Allah. This is the true Islamic stance.
Balls_of_Titanium_1 wrote: No, there is HELL OF A LOT OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO.
No.. no…. Muslim; don’t scream. This is a debate and for the smooth furthering you have to abide by some etiquette. Not shouting to your contester is one of them.
You have already showed lack of respect for many debate etiquette, however, maybe you will behave nicely next time.
And no speaking loudly is my style, and not least offensive. I have had real life debates, in which I say things at the top of my lungs, with being least offensive to the other speaker.
If my passionate rejection of your argument affects you in some negative way, that is your problem. You need to learn that in a debate one must detach onself personally from one's argument.
Look in the mirror and know that any correction of etiquette that is required is on your part.
Balls_of_Titanium_1 wrote: Let me refute you:
A Jew can potentially become a Muslim, can thus leave the accursed state. However, Satan can do no such thing.
It means your comparison is faulty.
I left my original post above for the same reason. Focus on the bolded,
Okay, what does it say? Dude, I said JEWS.
'Dude' is not something you should say in formal debates, too.
If you have touched upon "etiquette", let me asure you we will go all the way.
Yes, you said Jews.
I said between Satan and Jews. And when you get a potential Jewish convert to Islam, the converted is no longer a Jew. He becomes Muslim.
How many Jews are there in Islam?
Darn.., you call this refutation?
But Satan cannot convert, cannot repent. Repentance and forgiveness is only reserved for mortals, and as such you cannot compare a group of mortals to Satan for rhetorical purpose.
A Jew is a also a potential convert to us - heck, any non-Muslim is.
Not so Satan.
Qur'an has been revealed for all people to convert to Islam. This cannot be applicable to Satan.
For you to support that Jews as a whole (to the last individual) are considered like Satan by Muslims, you have to bring a scholarly Muslim opinon which says that Jews as a whole (to the last individual) are like Satan. Note that the scholarly opinon should be a general opinion shared by ulimas and not an isolated view.
If you maintain that the Qur'an considers Jews and Satan alike, you will have to provide evidence from the Qur'an that it is impossible for Jews to repent at any future time just as it is for Satan, and that a priori God has made the decision to send them to hell just like he has done so in the case of Satan.
This also introduces us to another conundrum that you face in your attempt to be over smart. Since we know that Qur'an no where maintains that Jews cannot repent eventually by accepting Islam, and asks Muslims to "invite the people to your Lord with wisdom and good preaching" at the same time, and also makes this call specific to Jews and Christians, it is clear then that those Jews who will ultimately remain non-Muslims till the end of times - and actually this is true of any non-Muslim - will, from the Qur'anic point of view, represent the vilest bunch of people who disobey God, as by then, through "good preaching" and advocation by Muslims, many among the Jews (and non-Muslims) would have converted to Islam - a possibility no where rejected in the Qur'an.
Thus whenever Muslim look in general towards Jews (or any non-Muslim), we don't see a group that is as a whole condemned by God just like Satan to every single individual - something you would have us believe - but we see among them potential converts, that is good people, that is, those people who fall in the category whom God may even have a good news to tell at the day of judgement, according to the Holy Verse I quoted.
We can thus judge no single Jew just on the basis of him being a Jew.
These are the affects of Islamic belief and Qur'anic teachings on us.
Balls_of_Titanium_1 wrote: It is this problem that you run into when you try to be over intellectual.
Stop bothering of it. Focus on doing better next time. And let me warn you too. Don’t shoot on your foot in the course. There is every chance for you to do so, and that is why I forewarn you.
Don't forewarn me about anything I might do against myself. I can take care of myself without any of your "forewarning".
Balls_of_Titanium_1 wrote: You are relating the Qur'an revealed in a different sense to a hadith which was related in another.
You have by no means shown any link between the verse and the hadith you quoted.
I am not combining your Quran to unrelated sources that explain it. In fact what I did is in perfect line of logic. If Jews are cursed and doomed to bear the curse until the Day of Judgment, then what is awaiting them after all the hardships they suffered is massacre.
YOU HAVE SHOWN NOTHING that says that Jews as a whole should be subjected to any "hardship".
God chastising disobedient Jews does not mean they must be subjected to any hardship by the Muslims.
I brought a Quranic verse which states of your god’s wrath on a certain group of religionists that is protracted to the end of days. Then I brought the hadith which depicts one of the signs of end of days. Isn’t there any connection?
Can you refute me logically?
Balls_of_Titanium_1 wrote: The Muslim has to believe in this "murder" just as he has to believe in the murder of the people of Noah, the people of Sodom, and other of the likes.
Yes; believing in massacres is what makes a perfect Muslim. I am aware of it.
Dude.., the murder of the people of Noah is past, so is the so-called Sodom incident. I am least bothered of it
, but I am talking of an event to come, not something that is past.
Believing in talking stones and trees (ooh… I forgot to omit Garqad.. sorry
) betraying Jews to Muslims to kill them in a time that has yet to come is different to believing in some betrayals and massacres that happened in the past and long became history.
First of all, the debate is not about what "bothers" you or what doesn't. I will present what I see supports my arguments and refutes yours - whether you are bothered by it or not is the least of my concern.
There is no difference between the two cases. Just as we believe idolaters were drowned by God as a whole into the sea, we believe that Jews would fight Muslims at the end of times and will be finished off.
Just as at the times of Noah, the unbelief was cleansed of any form of positive remanants within it, and it was thus pure unadulterated evil, and justifed God wiping out a whole people, similarly, when the same will happen at the end of times, when Islamic figures like Mehdi and the returning Propeht Jesus Christ would have arrived, and we would be in the same times as that of long gone by when Prophets came to the earth in the past, at that time, the fight against an evil group of people under the banner of Jews, and non-Muslim, will be as justified as God punishing the people of Sodom by subjecting them to falling stones, or that of inflicting the children of Egyptians with disease and eventual death to make the Eygptians yeild to Moses (as mentioned in the Bible) .
Just like the drowning of Idolaters has no affect in the day to day dealing advocated in their regard by the Qur'an in other verses, the eventual battle of good and evil and the eventual finishing off of disbelief, does not have any affect in our dealings with Jews and non-Muslims in general.
As long as you Muslims preserve this belief, what good reason is there for us to trust you Muslims are Jew lovers?
Do you love Muslims? You said "yes", but then you supported injustice against Palestinians because they are Muslims, betraying yourself.
However, nobody loves any group of people in general. Love has a context. If there is a good Jew who helps humanity in some positive way, he will be respected and loved by the Muslim on the basis of verses I quoted and on the basis of the teachings of the Qur'an. If however, there are those who do evil, they will be subject to a healthy dislike.
After all, you believe in this nonsense of talking stones..! To make matters worse, you believe in a killing spree in which stones and trees (except that of Garqad) is actively partaking..!!
Calling the opponent religious beliefs "nonsense" is not part of a civilized debate, too, nor of good "etiquette".
Which makes me question - do you know the meaning of "etiquette"?
A question I asked because you used the word while going against it a number of times.
You must start practicing necessary debate etiquettes.
Balls_of_Titanium_1 wrote: It is a belief regarding what would happen near the end of times, and there are many upheaval events in addition to it that are mentioned in the Qur'an which would occur at or near the hour.
I didn’t argue otherwise. I know there are more signs and symptoms of end of times in Quran, but least bothered of them. This one catches my eye.
Not interested again in what bothers you or doesn't. Give me some other reason to accept the invalidity of my statements.
Don’t call me selective my dear friend…, would you? NO. I am sure you will not.
Balls_of_Titanium_1 wrote: It is by no means a call to commit any massacre.
Well, describing of a time that has yet to come when Muslims with the help of talking stones and trees will go on killing all Jews (again except those stranded behind Garqad) is not amount to massacre?
You inability to understand my statements is not the problem that I must address.
It is this problem you run into if you have a formal debate. If you opponent proves himself to be a nutcase, and you leave the debate, he will claim victory, while having a formal debate with that nutcase becomes tortorous any way.
You are then stuck between a rock and a hard place. I still hope you will not create such a scenario for me.
There is no call to massacre in whatever you highlighted. There is a prediction of an future event.
In a hadith it is said that Muslims will be divided into 70 sects, however, in another hadith, prophet Muhammad warned Muslims against sectarianism and dividing themselves into sects.
This is a enough to refute your confusion between the two.
However, the nonsensical nature of your argument is apparent by employing elementary critical thinking.
What does it mean to you?
It means to me an eventual battle between good and evil, good represented by Muslims, evil represented by non-Muslims, including Jews.
If your god can promise you of this pleasure of killing Jews just prior to Judgment Day, I don’t think the same guy will not be happy to deny you the privilege of killing at least some of Jews.
Whoever said what you "think" matters in the least?
What matters is what you show. And you have not shown anything of the kind.
After all, it will relieve the burden of your successors.
Would not it?
What would reveal the burden would be to bring those people to the right path, with "wisdom and good preaching", as we are ordained, not what you say.
You defining Islam for Muslims doesn't do it - you were already notified.
After a lengthy study of Qur'anic verses regarding Jews, the following article reaches the following conclusion:
http://jews-for-allah.org/Jews-and-Musl ... -koran.htm
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In conclusion, the Quran is a book for the Jews, Allah loves the Jews and sent the Holy Koran as a book of guidance for the Jews.
So don't think your personal opinion on this matter matters one hoot.
CONTINUED (don't reply after I have replied to all of your posts)