Myxtic defending Pedophile Mo - Comments

[Chiclets]

I am confused as to what Myxtic is trying to do, obviously he accepts that Mo had sex with a nine year old which makes Mo a pedophile

[skynightblaze]

Section A : Refuting the Filthy Pedophilia Charge
1) Definition of Pedophilia a/c to American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual

a/c to American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, Pedophilia is :

"n. recurrent, intense, sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges or behaviors involving sexual activity with a PREPUBESCENT child"
http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/cloud_ped_time.htm

"Pedophilia is considered a paraphilia, an abnormal or unnatural attraction. Pedophilia is defined as the fantasy or act of sexual activity with PREPUBESCENT children."
http://psychologytoday.com/conditions/pedophilia.html
the definitions mention 'PRE-PUBESCENT' children


2) Had Hazrat Ayesha Attained Puberty ??


Point # 1

Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Kitab al-Nikah, Hadith no. 1027 :

وقد ‏ ‏قالت ‏ ‏عائشة ‏ ‏إذا بلغت ‏ ‏الجارية ‏ ‏تسع سنين فهي امرأة

Hazrat Ayesha said,"When the girl reaches nine years of age, she is a woman."
obviously Hazrat Ayesha is referring to herself as a woman, at the time of her marriage

I see you brought nothing new that I have ever seen. I will have to repeat myself yet another time.Claim of Tirmidhi is contradicted by Sahih hadiths which are more reliable . The sahih hadiths show that Aisha wasn’t mature physically even when she was 16-17.Also if you had studied the links regarding menstruation provided by you you would have noticed that the same links say age of maturity as 12 or 13 and NOT 9!!(I have quoted relevant portion below ) So we see medical science as well as Sahih hadiths contradict this claim of AIsha even If Tirmidhi was accurate in narrating his account.Pre Pubscent children are those who haven’t reached puberty and Aisha hadn’t reached as per your own link and Sahih hadiths so Muhhamad becomes a paedophile sadly for you.I have quoted the Sahih hadiths in response to your point 4.

Point # 2
we know none of the Arabs ever raised this issue against Prophet Muhammad ...
as it was a costum then to marry girls after their puberty/menstrual cycle ...

I will address the post regarding maturity of Aisha and prove that she wasn’t mature even when she was 16-17(See reply to point 4 of yours below) after I address your custom or norm crap .

Firstly I would like you to provide proof to prove that old men marrying little girls was a custom.Young boys marrying young girls could have been norm but how about proving old men marrying young girls as old as 6?.

Anyway let us assume that it was a custom. I can still debunk this baloney argument of yours.

First of all just because it’s a custom doesn’t mean its right.Hindus followed a practice called Sati wherein wife was pushed into the fire after her husbands death. Now it was a norm some 200 years ago . SO does that mean that burning your wife is ok?

Similarly child marriage and child sex are not at all ok and it is not what I say but its as per medical science SO what Muhhamad and others did was 100 % wrong in the light of medical science we have today. Now the only question is whether it would be appropriate to blame them or not considering the fact that these men had no knowledge of it?

Ordinary men can be excused since they committed this sin unknowingly but we have a man here who claimed to be a prophet of GOD. How is that GOD also didn’t understand that child marriage and child sex are bad? How could a prophet of GOD commit this sin unknowingly?

IF muhhamad was a prophet then God would have guided him. Infact this is a proof that GOD and he had no connection and he was just another illiterate arab who fell for the evil norms or customs of his times(assuming that it was really a norm).Ideally he should be setting an example by going against this norm . Please tell me what is the difference between ordinary men and him if he followed the same set of evil customs? So you see Muhhamad cannot be excused even if it was a norm since he claimed to be a prophet from GOD.

Point # 3

what was Prophet Muhammad waiting for 3 years after the nikah ... ??

ofcourse he wanted Hazrat Ayesha to attain puberty ....

Who told you Aisha was mature at 9 ? Aisha wasn’t mature till 16-17 years so if at all your holy crap wanted to wait he should have for 6-7 years or more. I. Your own hadiths attest to this fact and also your own link.Again See reply to point 4 of yours below.

Point # 4
it is not rare/abnormal for the girls to attain puberty around 7 or 8 years ...

Even if you show some links which tell us that girls matured at the age of 7-8 it still wont work because what matters is whether Aisha reached physically and mental maturity or not. See how your baloney attempt fails here.

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 48, 829
Buraira said, 'No, by Allah Who has sent you with the Truth, I have never seen in her anything faulty except that she is a girl of IMMATURE AGE, who sometimes sleeps and leaves the dough for the goats to eat.

This incident of the 'slander' against Aisha can be dated from surah 24. It is thought to have occurred during the 'campaign against Bani al-Mustaliq' which is commonly believed to have occurred around 5-6AH.

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/quran/ ... mau24.html

This means that Aisha, being born in 9BH, was still an immature girl when she was around 13-14 years old.Your own hadiths testify the fact that she was an mentally immature girl when she was 13-14.This proves that she was raped by muhhamad when she was 9 .Also see this from your own link.

Consider the most basic question of such inquiry: What constitutes a victim of child sexual abuse? By definition, pedophiles prey on the prepubescent. No one would seriously argue that a 6- or even 10-year-old can meaningfully consent to sexBut what about those 12 and older, who make up nearly half of all juvenile sex-abuse victims?

http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/cloud_ped_time.htm


IF you have doubts that this doesn’t tell us about her physical maturity then lets see another argument.


Now let us when AIsha reached age of puberty.Khalil Fariel has proved here that AIsha wasn’t mature physically even when she was 16-17.

what I am going to produce is a hadith, not any unreliable account. This hadith is from Bukhari and after reading hadith, I will analysis what is it all about. You can refute me if I am wrong on my assumption. But be extremely logical and don’t face down to facts:

Sahih Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 6, Number 293:
Narrated Al-Qasim:
'Aisha said, "We set out with the sole intention of performing Hajj and when we reached Sarif, (a place six miles from Mecca) I got my menses. Allah's Apostle came to me while I was weeping. He said 'What is the matter with you? Have you got your menses?' I replied, 'Yes.' He said, 'This is a thing which Allah has ordained for the daughters of Adam. So do what all the pilgrims do with the exception of the Taw-af (Circumambulation) round the Ka'ba." 'Aisha added, "Allah's Apostle sacrificed cows on behalf of his wives."

Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 631:
Narrated Al-Qasim bin Muhammad:
' Aisha said, "We set out with Allah's Apostles in the months of Hajj, and (in) the nights of Hajj, and at the time and places of Hajj and in a state of Hajj. We dismounted at Sarif (a village six miles from Mecca). The Prophet then addressed his companions and said, "Anyone who has not got the Hadi and likes to do Umra instead of Hajj may do so (i.e. Hajj-al-Tamattu) and anyone who has got the Hadi should not finish the Ihram after performing ' Umra). (i.e. Hajj-al-Qiran). Aisha added, "The companions of the Prophet obeyed the above (order) and some of them (i.e. who did not have Hadi) finished their Ihram after Umra." Allah's Apostle and some of his companions were resourceful and had the Hadi with them, they could not perform Umra (alone) (but had to perform both Hajj and Umra with one Ihram). Aisha added, "Allah's Apostle came to me and saw me weeping and said, "What makes you weep, O Hantah?" I replied, "I have heard your conversation with your companions and I cannot perform the Umra." He asked, "What is wrong with you?' I replied, ' I do not offer the prayers (i.e. I have my menses).' He said, ' It will not harm you for you are one of the daughters of Adam, and Allah has written for you (this state) as He has written it for them. Keep on with your intentions for Hajj and Allah may reward you that." Aisha further added, "Then we proceeded for Hajj till we reached Mina and I became clean from my menses.

Note: The second hadith has been shortened by deleting the last part which has no relevance here at all.

Now, I want to dissect these two hadiths. There are more in Bukhari as repetitions of the same incident, but I just quoted two for the purpose. And I will focus on the second, since it is more descriptive.

Hadith unravels an incident when Muhammad along with Ayesha and some of his companions went for Hajj. But Ayesha struck in the middle weeping…. Please notice she began to weep, and what was the reason? Muhammad asks what’s wrong with you my darling? (Hanatha is difficult to translate to English, that should be why the translator himself put the same Arabic word.) Anyway, just have an idea Hanatha is someone who bought all opulence for a man. It is a term used to address the most beloved women in Arabic. Ayesha replies I can not pray, because something has occurred (As you can say in the first hadith she has begun to menstruate) . NOW: Please be very attentive to Muhammad’s reply: It will NOT HARM you, for you are one among the daughers of Adam and Allah has written it for them.

DUH!

Ayesha was having her first experience, because many of you women know first experience of menstruation is always somewhat frightful or an emotional experience. Since it was the first time she experienced such, she should have frightened and started to weep. Muhammad does a good job here; consoling Menstruation is not harmful, but quite natural as all those females born Adam should necessarily go through it. If Ayesha had any previous experience, Muhammad shouldn't have used this consoling words...! But like a counselor, he convinces his beloved wife "Menstruation is not harmful" Lesson from Muhammad for a girl who is having her first experience"

So, Ayesha began to menstruate at a later period (This hadith and the incidents plus Muhammad giving lessons) indicate it firmly. If she had similar experience before that, there isn’t a lecture needed to console her. In fact Muhammad teaches her Menstruation is not going to harm you.

I think this part is clear. Even if I incline to Muslim apologetics that starting menstruating is the sign of maturity, Ayesha acquired it at a very later time during a pilgrimage with her husband Muhammad.
A. Ayesha was physically not matured, even if we accept Islamic definition of maturity.

Before you attempt to address anything you may go through the entire thread or else same arguments would need to be repeated.For your information Cassandra(Cassie) has provided proof that age of puberty during Muhhamads time varied from 10.5 to 16.5 .Muhhamad is seen consoling AIsha for her menses but not Safiya who was a matured woman .Its clear that Aisha needed consoling because it was her first menses and her age was around 16-17 that time. Read the thread for details.If you have any argument create a separate thread for that or else address it here itself.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... 80&start=0

Conclusion :
since Hazrat Ayesha was NOT 'PRE-PUBESCENT' ...
hence PROPHET MUHAMMAD can never be regarded as (naauzubillah) a pedophile ...

In the light of above we can see that Muhhamad will always be regarded as complete paedophile and a rapist!!

[skynightblaze]

Section B : Analyzing the Morality of Their Relationship
3) Is Marrying a Post-Pubescent Girl Immoral ??

lets see what puberty/menstruation is ....

"menstruation may be referred to as the symbolic and diagnostic attainment of puberty"
http://www.evemedic.com/menstruation.html


"In this way a girl starts her next phase of woman hood. It is this period when menstruation starts and marks the beginning of the reproduction cycle in her life"
http://ayushveda.com/homeremedies/menstruation.htm


"On reaching menstruation cycle a woman’s body becomes mature and capable of bearing a child."
http://www.evemedic.com/menstruation.html



now a girl who has attained puberty/menses is a girl who ;

1) is sexually mature

2) has entered the phase of woman-hood

3) is fit for bearing a child

isnt such a girl fit for marriage .... ??
without getting emotional tell me, which law of morality is being defied here ... ??

YOu have already lost the case as I have proved Aisha wasnt pre pubescent so this post is as good as useless. and about such a girl being fit for sex Ofcourse she is not my naïve friend!! TO make such claims you need to read your link carefully.

Menstruation
Estrogen and progesterone are the two female hormones present in the female body and is responsible for reproduction process, development of breast, production of milk in breast during pregnancy, etc. The secretion of these hormones starts from ovaries when a female attains the age of 12-13 years

Read the part in red and then the part in blue.The hormone secretion is a must for a girl to reproduce and it starts at 12-13 as per the link given by you. See ITS atleast 12-13 and not 9 !!!Now tell me without being emotional, is such a girl fit for sex? Which morality law is defied here?

Now let me give you a strong argument that would demolish the kafir claim. Say “ Since muhhamad was a true prophet of GOD he cannot rape so even if he does rape its not rape”. Believe me we would be 100 % convinced!!

4) A Few Well-Known Characteristics of Child Abusers/Rapists
let us have a look at a few of the characteristics of child abusers/rapists which everyone agrees to .....

>> Child rapists want VIRGINS, NOT WIDOWS


>> A Child rapist has a desire for CHILDREN, NOT WOMEN EVEN OLDER THAN HIMSELF

How about making a deal of reading your links carefully before making any stupid arguments?

A psychiatric diagnosis of pedophilia merely indicates one's desires; not all pedophiles act on their urges and actually commit child sexual abuse. Plenty of sexual abuse of kids is committed by ordinary people not generally attracted to children. That's one reason the incidence of child sexual abuse is so maddeningly high. A Department of Health and Human Services study estimates that victimizers sexually abused 93,000 U.S. children in 1999 (the latest year for which data are available). But there is some good news. Last year the Department of Justice reported that the number of substantiated cases of child sexual abuse has been decreasing, from a peak of nearly 150,000 in 1992 to about 104,000 in 1998--a drop of almost one-third. The authors say vigorous incarceration of offenders over the past few years may be partly responsible.

http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/cloud_ped_time.htm

Your own link says that’s sexual abuse.

>> Child rapists dont send marriage proposals to their targets, they bang them and leave them devastated mentally for their entire life

Who told you that if a marriage proposal is sent and then sex is carried out with a child then its not a rape?

>> A Child rapist's character would never be praised by his victim !!

A rapist is one who performs sex without the consent of a woman . Now I have proved above that Aisha wasn’t mature when Muhhamad had sex with her at 9. SO it’s a rape!! The important for it being a rape or not is whether Aisha consented to sex at that particular moment i.e when she was 9 years old and unfortunately for you she didn’t so it was a rape! Whether she consented later doesn’t matter at all. Finally would Aisha praise Muhhamad if she was aware of medical science today? Would AIsha praise Muhhamad if the incident happened today?

Let me tell you a secret . You would be required to visit jail to meet your prophet and Aisha would be launching a series of charges against him if he the holy paedophile was alive today.

>> Even if a Child rapist marries his target, he wouldnt wait for 3 years before bringing that girl to his house !!


>> Child rapists dont live with their victims as husbands for a span as elongated as 9 years !!

Please stop making useless points. Rape is classified depending on whether woman consents or not and it is not nullified if the abuser waits for 3,4 .. 100 years to carry out his evil intentions.

AS I said to classify it as a rape its important to know whether Aisha consented when Muhhamad had sex with her at 9 . Whether she consented later doesn’t matter. Initially it was a rape as proven above since she was not mature enough to give consent for sex even when she was 13-14. Also whether Aisha lived all her life with him afterwards doesnt invalidate the claim of rape.See the following quote.

Rape is rape, regardless of the relationship between the rapist and the victim. It can be a total stranger; someone you recognise by sight, but have never really communicated with; someone you know superficially, a neighbor or a colleague; a friend, a Girl-friend or a former Girlfriend; a live-in partner, or a former partner; someone you are married to or have been married to in the past.

http://literaryindia.com/Essays/Society/marital-rape-men.html

Also read its considered rape even if women or men are married and not consenting.

5) Can Prophet Muhammad be (naauzubillah) Called as a 'CHILD ABUSER / CHILD RAPIST' ??

if we assume for the sake of argument only that Prophet Muhammad was (nauuzubillah) a child abuser/rapist, then ....



>> IMAGINE !! (naauzubillah) a 'child rapist' marrying widows and women much older than himself (Hazrat Khadija & Hazrat Sauda)


>> IMAGINE !! (naauzubillah) a 'child rapist' marrying only one virgin !! (i.e Hazrat Ayesha was the ONLY virgin wife of Prophet Muhammad)

This only shows your shoddy research. This has already been debunked above by a quote from your own link.Btw Muhhamad fancied kids other than AIsha too. For e,g a thought of marrying a crawling baby, asking a person to marry little girl so that he could fondle her, Asking a little girl having wet nurse to submit herself in sex to him and also kissing young boys.If you want I would quote references here.

>> Jubair ibn Mut`am was another man who proposed Hazrat Ayesha for marriage, was he too a child rapist ??

Nope because he didn’t have sex with her otherwise he would be called a rapist.Also I have debunked above your appealing to norm of that century argument.

>> IMAGINE !! child rapists formally sending proposals for marriage !!


>> IMAGINE !! (naauzubillah) a child rapist marrying his target and living with her till his death i.e for 9 years !! (SAHIH BUKHARI, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64)



>> Hazrat Ayesha, after her nikah at the age of 6, entered Prophet Muhammad's house when she was 9 i.e after 3 years .... now what was Prophet Muhammad waiting for if he really was (naauzubillah) a child rapist ?? (SAHIH MUSLIM, Book 008, Number 3310)

>> IMAGINE !! a child rapist (naauzubillah) waiting for 3 years to get his hands on his desired girl, although she is legal unto him through nikah


>> No pagan of Makkah ever raised this issue against Prophet Muhammad when they opposed him then

Already answered above!

that proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the charge itself is baseless ...

How you wish this be true!!

6) Can Hazrat Ayesha be (naauzubillah) Called as an "ABUSED CHILD"

and again if we assume for the sake of argument only that Hazrat Ayesha really (naauzubillah) was an abused child, then ...


>> If (naauzubillah) Hazrat Ayesha had become a victim of sexual abuse she would have been devastated emotionally, psychologically and mentally, but she went on to become one of the intellectual giants of Islam !!

I would like to thank you for debunking yourself. Read your quote below to find emotional ,psychological and mental devastation.

>> IMAGINE !! a child who was abused (naauzubillah) raped, getting jealous of 'another wife' (Hazrat Khadija) of the same person who abused her (SAHIH BUKHARI Volume 7, Book 62, Number 156)

Also she fought a war against Ali resulting into killing of thousands of men .Also not to forget Aisha getting excessive jealous about Maria(chapter 66) These are signs of emotional disturbances .

>> IMAGINE !! a child who was abused (naauzubillah) raped going on to become the person to have "MEMORIZED" more than 2000 AHADIS of the same person who abused her !!

Mate I would like to know the source of book from where you get these definitions!! I like your definition!! SO now all anyone has to do is rape a girl and make her narrate 2000 facts about him later and the charge of rape is nullified!! lol

>> IMAGINE !! a child who was abused (naauzubillah) raped planning out of jealousy, against 'another wife' (Hazrat Zainab) of the same person who abused her (SAHIH BUKHARI Volume 7, Book 63, Number 192)

Again thanks for confirming my charge that she was abused!! SEe thats emotional disturbance again!

>> IMAGINE !! a child who was abused (naauzubillah) raped saying this about the person who abused her "None of you could control his sexual desires as the Prophet could." (SAHIH BUKHARI, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 299)

So much that he required to visit only his 9 wives in one night and required some additional concubines !! Alas ordinary men who possibly have only 1 wife were like profit who could control his desires !

>> If indeed the marriage of Hazrat Aisha was something which was despicable why did the Muslims not make any efforts to conceal or cloud it ... ??

Many muslims today are trying to do that. We have some of them on our forum. So are you ready to accept that Muhhamad was a COMPLETE /100 %/PERFECT PAEDOPHILE?

Conclusion :
Hence there is substantial evidence above to debunk the filthy allegations ...
i would end my rebuttal with the following quote :
"Of all the world's greatest men none has been so much maligned as Muhammad."
(W Montgomery Watt, Muhammad At Medina, 1956, Oxford At The Clarendon Press, p. 324.)

thanxXx ... !!

I know you would agree with me 100 % when I modify this quote

"Of all the world's greatest criminal men none has been so much respected as Muhammad when he is a disgrace to mankind .

[Myxtic]

I am confused as to what Myxtic is trying to do, obviously he accepts that Mo had sex with a nine year old which makes Mo a pedophile

yeah no wonder you are a confused person ...

I see you brought nothing new that I have ever seen. I will have to repeat myself yet another time.Claim of Tirmidhi is contradicted by Sahih hadiths which are more reliable

o really ... ??

The sahih hadiths show that Aisha wasn’t mature physically even when she was 16-17.Also if you had studied the links regarding menstruation provided by you you would have noticed that the same links say age of maturity as 12 or 13 and NOT 9!!(I have quoted relevant portion below ) So we see medical science as well as Sahih hadiths contradict this claim of AIsha even If Tirmidhi was accurate in narrating his account.Pre Pubscent children are those who haven’t reached puberty and Aisha hadn’t reached as per your own link and Sahih hadiths so Muhhamad becomes a paedophile sadly for you.I have quoted the Sahih hadiths in response to your point 4.

then lets see what you've got ...

I will address the post regarding maturity of Aisha and prove that she wasn’t mature even when she was 16-17(See reply to point 4 of yours below) after I address your custom or norm crap . Firstly I would like you to provide proof to prove that old men marrying little girls was a custom.Young boys marrying young girls could have been norm but how about proving old men marrying young girls as old as 6?.Anyway let us assume that it was a custom. I can still debunk this baloney argument of yours. First of all just because it’s a custom doesn’t mean its right.Hindus followed a practice called Sati wherein wife was pushed into the fire after her husbands death. Now it was a norm some 200 years ago . SO does that mean that burning your wife is ok?Similarly child marriage and child sex are not at all ok and it is not what I say but its as per medical science SO what Muhhamad and others did was 100 % wrong in the light of medical science we have today. Now the only question is whether it would be appropriate to blame them or not considering the fact that these men had no knowledge of it?Ordinary men can be excused since they committed this sin unknowingly but we have a man here who claimed to be a prophet of GOD. How is that GOD also didn’t understand that child marriage and child sex are bad? How could a prophet of GOD commit this sin unknowingly? IF muhhamad was a prophet then God would have guided him. Infact this is a proof that GOD and he had no connection and he was just another illiterate arab who fell for the evil norms or customs of his times(assuming that it was really a norm).Ideally he should be setting an example by going against this norm . Please tell me what is the difference between ordinary men and him if he followed the same set of evil customs? So you see Muhhamad cannot be excused even if it was a norm since he claimed to be a prophet from GOD.

ahahahha ...

did i ever say it is right just b/c it is was a custom ... ??

you confused blind ... i have just discussed the puberty of Hazrat Ayesha in Section A ...

better read with your eyes before opening your mouth to blabber ...

Who told you Aisha was mature at 9 ? Aisha wasn’t mature till 16-17 years so if at all your holy crap wanted to wait he should have for 6-7 years or more. I. Your own hadiths attest to this fact and also your own link.Again See reply to point 4 of yours below.

then lets see those ahadith ...

Even if you show some links which tell us that girls matured at the age of 7-8 it still wont work because what matters is whether Aisha reached physically and mental maturity or not.

See how your baloney attempt fails here.

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 48, 829
Buraira said, 'No, by Allah Who has sent you with the Truth, I have never seen in her anything faulty except that she is a girl of IMMATURE AGE, who sometimes sleeps and leaves the dough for the goats to eat.

This incident of the 'slander' against Aisha can be dated from surah 24. It is thought to have occurred during the 'campaign against Bani al-Mustaliq' which is commonly believed to have occurred around 5-6AH.
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/quran/ ... mau24.html

This means that Aisha, being born in 9BH, was still an immature girl when she was around 13-14 years old.Your own hadiths testify the fact that she was an mentally immature girl when she was 13-14.This proves that she was raped by muhhamad when she was 9 .Also see this from your own link.

the hadith translator uses the word 'immature' just for 'young'

like read this hadith :

Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 48, Number 805:

Narrated Urwa bin Al-Musayyab, Alqama bin Waqqas and Ubaidullah bin Abdullah:

About the story of 'Aisha and their narrations were similar attesting each other, when the liars said what they invented about 'Aisha, and the Divine Inspiration was delayed, Allah's Apostle sent for 'Ali and Usama to consult them in divorcing his wife (i.e. 'Aisha). Usama said, "Keep your wife, as we know nothing about her except good." Buraira said, "I cannot accuse her of any defect except that she is still a young girl who sleeps, neglecting her family's dough which the domestic goats come to eat (i.e. she was too simpleminded to deceive her husband)." Allah's Apostle said, "Who can help me to take revenge over the man who has harmed me by defaming the reputation of my family? By Allah, I have not known about my family-anything except good, and they mentioned (i.e. accused) a man about whom I did not know anything except good."




the speaker simply says that Hazrat Ayesha was a young girl who was neglecting some of her duties ...

how the hell does that mean she hadn't attained puberty ??

Consider the most basic question of such inquiry: What constitutes a victim of child sexual abuse? By definition, pedophiles prey on the prepubescent. No one would seriously argue that a 6- or even 10-year-old can meaningfully consent to sexBut what about those 12 and older, who make up nearly half of all juvenile sex-abuse victims?
http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/cloud_ped_time.htm

IF you have doubts that this doesn’t tell us about her physical maturity then lets see another argument.

did you even notice that i quoted the definition of pedophilia a/c to American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual ??

but what you have quoted is John Cloud's bloody personal opinion !!





-- contd ...

[Sanitarium]

1) Definition of Pedophilia a/c to American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual

a/c to American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, Pedophilia is :

"n. recurrent, intense, sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges or behaviors involving sexual activity with a PREPUBESCENT child"
http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/cloud_ped_time.htm



"Pedophilia is considered a paraphilia, an abnormal or unnatural attraction. Pedophilia is defined as the fantasy or act of sexual activity with PREPUBESCENT children."
http://psychologytoday.com/conditions/pedophilia.html


the definitions mention 'PRE-PUBESCENT' children ...

Firstly, your definition is incomplete. Full definition here and here.

Secondly, your entire argument hinges on your claim that Aisha was not pre pubescent at the time. You are putting the horse before the cart. In order to make your case you must first show that Aisha was pubertal or post pubertal.


Lastly, I recommend everyone who hasn't already, to watch this documentary by the Arab Atheist Network about women in Islam. It's split into 6 parts and has English subtitles. The first parts are highly relevant to this debate too!

[Myxtic]

IF you have doubts that this doesn’t tell us about her physical maturity then lets see another argument.


Now let us when AIsha reached age of puberty.Khalil Fariel has proved here that AIsha wasn’t mature physically even when she was 16-17.


Khalil wrote:
what I am going to produce is a hadith, not any unreliable account. This hadith is from Bukhari and after reading hadith, I will analysis what is it all about. You can refute me if I am wrong on my assumption. But be extremely logical and don’t face down to facts:

Sahih Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 6, Number 293:
Narrated Al-Qasim:
'Aisha said, "We set out with the sole intention of performing Hajj and when we reached Sarif, (a place six miles from Mecca) I got my menses. Allah's Apostle came to me while I was weeping. He said 'What is the matter with you? Have you got your menses?' I replied, 'Yes.' He said, 'This is a thing which Allah has ordained for the daughters of Adam. So do what all the pilgrims do with the exception of the Taw-af (Circumambulation) round the Ka'ba." 'Aisha added, "Allah's Apostle sacrificed cows on behalf of his wives."

Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 631:
Narrated Al-Qasim bin Muhammad:
' Aisha said, "We set out with Allah's Apostles in the months of Hajj, and (in) the nights of Hajj, and at the time and places of Hajj and in a state of Hajj. We dismounted at Sarif (a village six miles from Mecca). The Prophet then addressed his companions and said, "Anyone who has not got the Hadi and likes to do Umra instead of Hajj may do so (i.e. Hajj-al-Tamattu) and anyone who has got the Hadi should not finish the Ihram after performing ' Umra). (i.e. Hajj-al-Qiran). Aisha added, "The companions of the Prophet obeyed the above (order) and some of them (i.e. who did not have Hadi) finished their Ihram after Umra." Allah's Apostle and some of his companions were resourceful and had the Hadi with them, they could not perform Umra (alone) (but had to perform both Hajj and Umra with one Ihram). Aisha added, "Allah's Apostle came to me and saw me weeping and said, "What makes you weep, O Hantah?" I replied, "I have heard your conversation with your companions and I cannot perform the Umra." He asked, "What is wrong with you?' I replied, ' I do not offer the prayers (i.e. I have my menses).' He said, ' It will not harm you for you are one of the daughters of Adam, and Allah has written for you (this state) as He has written it for them. Keep on with your intentions for Hajj and Allah may reward you that." Aisha further added, "Then we proceeded for Hajj till we reached Mina and I became clean from my menses.

Note: The second hadith has been shortened by deleting the last part which has no relevance here at all.

Now, I want to dissect these two hadiths. There are more in Bukhari as repetitions of the same incident, but I just quoted two for the purpose. And I will focus on the second, since it is more descriptive.

Hadith unravels an incident when Muhammad along with Ayesha and some of his companions went for Hajj. But Ayesha struck in the middle weeping…. Please notice she began to weep, and what was the reason? Muhammad asks what’s wrong with you my darling? (Hanatha is difficult to translate to English, that should be why the translator himself put the same Arabic word.) Anyway, just have an idea Hanatha is someone who bought all opulence for a man. It is a term used to address the most beloved women in Arabic. Ayesha replies I can not pray, because something has occurred (As you can say in the first hadith she has begun to menstruate) . NOW: Please be very attentive to Muhammad’s reply: It will NOT HARM you, for you are one among the daughers of Adam and Allah has written it for them.

DUH!

Ayesha was having her first experience, because many of you women know first experience of menstruation is always somewhat frightful or an emotional experience. Since it was the first time she experienced such, she should have frightened and started to weep. Muhammad does a good job here; consoling Menstruation is not harmful, but quite natural as all those females born Adam should necessarily go through it. If Ayesha had any previous experience, Muhammad shouldn't have used this consoling words...! But like a counselor, he convinces his beloved wife "Menstruation is not harmful" Lesson from Muhammad for a girl who is having her first experience"

So, Ayesha began to menstruate at a later period (This hadith and the incidents plus Muhammad giving lessons) indicate it firmly. If she had similar experience before that, there isn’t a lecture needed to console her. In fact Muhammad teaches her Menstruation is not going to harm you.

I think this part is clear. Even if I incline to Muslim apologetics that starting menstruating is the sign of maturity, Ayesha acquired it at a very later time during a pilgrimage with her husband Muhammad.
A. Ayesha was physically not matured, even if we accept Islamic definition of maturity.

Before you attempt to address anything you may go through the entire thread or else same arguments would need to be repeated.For your information Cassandra(Cassie) has provided proof that age of puberty during Muhhamads time varied from 10.5 to 16.5 .Muhhamad is seen consoling AIsha for her menses but not Safiya who was a matured woman .Its clear that Aisha needed consoling because it was her first menses and her age was around 16-17 that time. Read the thread for details.If you have any argument create a separate thread for that or else address it here itself.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... 80&start=0

even a blind man can see that Hazrat Ayesha was upset just b/c ...

she thought she wouldnt be able to perfrom the Hajj due to her menses ...

& that was why Prophet Muhammad was trying to console her ...

see ... so simple

In the light of above we can see that Muhhamad will always be regarded as complete paedophile and a rapist!!

YOu have already lost the case as I have proved Aisha wasnt pre pubescent so this post is as good as useless. and about such a girl being fit for sex Ofcourse she is not my naïve friend!! TO make such claims you need to read your link carefully.

your foolishness above has already been debunked ...

Read the part in red and then the part in blue.The hormone secretion is a must for a girl to reproduce and it starts at 12-13 as per the link given by you. See ITS atleast 12-13 and not 9 !!!Now tell me without being emotional, is such a girl fit for sex? Which morality law is defied here?

and the same link says :

It is this period when menstruation starts and marks the beginning of the reproduction cycle in her life.

hence it is mentruation that marks the beginning of the reproduction cycle


though yes ... the age mentioned in that link is around 12 ...

but obviously the age span is never definite & constant ...

it is bound to be variable ...

no sane person should find that difficult to undertand ...


"Just as some girls begin puberty earlier or later than others, the same applies to periods. Some girls may start menstruating as early as age 9 or 10, but others may not get their first period until later in their teens."

http://womens-health.health-cares.net/m ... period.php

How about making a deal of reading your links carefully before making any stupid arguments?


A psychiatric diagnosis of pedophilia merely indicates one's desires; not all pedophiles act on their urges and actually commit child sexual abuse. Plenty of sexual abuse of kids is committed by ordinary people not generally attracted to children. That's one reason the incidence of child sexual abuse is so maddeningly high. A Department of Health and Human Services study estimates that victimizers sexually abused 93,000 U.S. children in 1999 (the latest year for which data are available). But there is some good news. Last year the Department of Justice reported that the number of substantiated cases of child sexual abuse has been decreasing, from a peak of nearly 150,000 in 1992 to about 104,000 in 1998--a drop of almost one-third. The authors say vigorous incarceration of offenders over the past few years may be partly responsible.


http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/cloud_ped_time.htm

Your own link says that’s sexual abuse.

you repeated the same idiotic argument ...

John Cloud failed to give a source for what he wrote there ...

and hence once again ...

what you have quoted is John Cloud's personal opinion ...

whereas what i quoted was a/c to American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual

Who told you that if a marriage proposal is sent and then sex is carried out with a child then its not a rape?

cmon you confused which child rapist marries his victim ??

a child rapist would have sex forcefully ... why does he need to marry his victim ...

that's common sense ...

you pose serious doubts about your wisdom if you say that ...

A rapist is one who performs sex without the consent of a woman . Now I have proved above that Aisha wasn’t mature when Muhhamad had sex with her at 9. SO it’s a rape!! The important for it being a rape or not is whether Aisha consented to sex at that particular moment i.e when she was 9 years old and unfortunately for you she didn’t so it was a rape! Whether she consented later doesn’t matter at all. Finally would Aisha praise Muhhamad if she was aware of medical science today? Would AIsha praise Muhhamad if the incident happened today?

AS I said to classify it as a rape its important to know whether Aisha consented when Muhhamad had sex with her at 9 . Whether she consented later doesn’t matter. Initially it was a rape as proven above since she was not mature enough to give consent for sex even when she was 13-14. Also whether Aisha lived all her life with him afterwards doesnt invalidate the claim of rape.See the following quote.[/

your dumb arguments have already been debunked above ...





-- contd ...

[Myxtic]

Rape is rape, regardless of the relationship between the rapist and the victim. It can be a total stranger; someone you recognise by sight, but have never really communicated with; someone you know superficially, a neighbor or a colleague; a friend, a Girl-friend or a former Girlfriend; a live-in partner, or a former partner; someone you are married to or have been married to in the past.


http://literaryindia.com/Essays/Society ... e-men.html

Also read its considered rape even if women or men are married and not consenting.

o yeah literary India ...

where any illeterate Hindu can jump in to write his pathetic articles ...

lets see the miserable standard of the idiot Swarup Sarkar who has written it ...


"Rape is Rape. It is not a gender issue. But when a women do the rape (sex without mutual consent) we term it as a love, affections or it is her birth right to do the same against any men and if any men try to fight back or dear to dream of say the truth, the man will be termed as rapist instead of terming Victim of rape."


it seems that this loser never even studied at high-school ...

This only shows your shoddy research. This has already been debunked above by a quote from your own link.

& i already exposed the idiocy in that argument of yours ...

Btw Muhhamad fancied kids other than AIsha too. For e,g a thought of marrying a crawling baby, asking a person to marry little girl so that he could fondle her, Asking a little girl having wet nurse to submit herself in sex to him and also kissing young boys.If you want I would quote references here.

bring it on windbag ... !!

bring on the references ...

I would like to thank you for debunking yourself. Read your quote below to find emotional ,psychological and mental devastation.


>> IMAGINE !! a child who was abused (naauzubillah) raped, getting jealous of 'another wife' (Hazrat Khadija) of the same person who abused her (SAHIH BUKHARI Volume 7, Book 62, Number 156)


Also she fought a war against Ali resulting into killing of thousands of men .Also not to forget Aisha getting excessive jealous about Maria(chapter 66) These are signs of emotional disturbances .

so jealousy a/c to you is emotional & mental devastation

bah !! now with that you are reaching the damn heights of ignorance ...

Mate I would like to know the source of book from where you get these definitions!! I like your definition!! SO now all anyone has to do is rape a girl and make her narrate 2000 facts about him later and the charge of rape is nullified!! lol

damn ... !! you are such a mindless blabber-mouth ...

where did i write a definition here

i just presented a fact ...

it is a dumb-bell who is trying to transform it into a definition ...

So much that he required to visit only his 9 wives in one night and required some additional concubines !! Alas ordinary men who possibly have only 1 wife were like profit who could control his desires !

visiting a wife DOES NOT mean having sex with the wife ...

it is only your perverted thinking that makes you think like that ...

Many muslims today are trying to do that. We have some of them on our forum. So are you ready to accept that Muhhamad was a COMPLETE /100 %/PERFECT PAEDOPHILE?

I know you would agree with me 100 % when I modify this quote

"Of all the world's greatest criminal men none has been so much respected as Muhammad when he is a disgrace to mankind .

it is funny how you want me to accept that ....

after you got your teeth broken badly about your feeble response ...

and hence i rerpeat the quote :


"Of all the world's greatest men none has been so much maligned as Muhammad."

(W Montgomery Watt, Muhammad At Medina, 1956, Oxford At The Clarendon Press, p. 324.)





thanxXx .... !!

[KhaliL]

____________________________

and hence i rerpeat the quote :

"Of all the world's greatest men none has been so much maligned as Muhammad."

(W Montgomery Watt, Muhammad At Medina, 1956, Oxford At The Clarendon Press, p. 324.)

thanxXx .... !!

I am sure something is gravely wrong with this miserable Myxtic (Mystic?). Or else, why should this man quote W.Montgomery Watt again and again to convince himself he is following the true prophet and not a Satan?

Amazing Mytique.. do you know of this scholar you quote? Do you or your counterparts who habitually quote this man know of his real works on Muhammad and Islam?

"Muhammad at Medina" is a sequel to Watt’s “Muhammad at Mecca”. Both editions are published by the same publishers. These couple of apologetic works are a blend of both absurdities and some real facts too. Whenever mentions the character of Muhammad, the scholar goes nauseatingly apologetic. But the man could not ignore the staring facts throughout Muhammad’s life.

Here the topic is Muhammad’s paedophilic affair with Aisha. See what Mr. Watt says on that marriage:

Aisha was still a child when Muhammad married her, and she continued to play with her toys. [W. Montgomery Watt. Muhammad At Medina/ Oxford At The Clarendon Press.1977: Page:323]



Next, Watt is furious on the true picture that European scholars like Sir. William Muir drawn with sufficient amount of objectivity added to their works. Now see Watt himself can not hide the true face of Muhammad in the same book our great Muslim debater (who jumped into Winston’s hands without ever knowing of the consequences) quoted:

There is some evidence that, besides his regular marriages and his unions with concubines, Muhammad had relations with women in accordance with the older matrilineal customs. [W. Montgomery Watt/ Muhammad in Medina: Oxford at the Clarendon Press. 1977 Page: 284.]

Watt can not stop there. As he moves on:

In connexion with the other verse Aisha is said to have made the remark “God is in hurry to satisfy your desires". Even if she really said this (and it is not a later invention), it would only show that Aisha was suspicious of the correspondence between the revelation and Muhammad’s desires. [W. Montgomery Watt /Muhammad At Medina: Oxford at the Clarendon Press: Page: 325]

Now, let us see Watt’s first work in the sequel, Muhammad at Mecca:

Firstly, at one time, Muhammad must have publicly recited the Satanic verses as part of the Quran; it is unthinkable that the story could have been invented later by Muslims or foisted upon them by non-Muslims. Secondly, at some later time Muhammad announced that these verses were not really part of the Quran and should be replaced by others of a vastly different import. [W. MOntgomary Watt/ Muhammad at Mecca: Oxford at Clarendon Press. 1968: Page: 103]



My dear mysterious, I am by no means trying to engage with you because this is Winston's turn. (This must be your bad time because you selected the real demolition man)

I just made it clear for you Muslim, the scholars you quote in your defense did not always froth your Muhammad. This is not something your Mullahs will tell you, but just keep in mind: when you jump on others with the silly scraps those Mullahs inject directly to your brain. They are not going to work here for the reason this is FFI, the bugbear of Muslims..,

NOW:

If my great challenger can read English well and handle scholarly articles; just go through the link where Hector along with Abdulwalid demolished you Muslim zealots’ acrobatics.

Before clicking the link, make sure to keep that seventh century hate manual away from you because the constant contact with it will dull your brain to not fathom a word Hector or Abdulwalid speaks out.

Evidence Muhammad was a Paedophile<<<<<click here>>>>>

Go figure, I just posted this for a purpose and that is to expose the shallowness of you because I know you are nowhere near to a contester to the level of Winston.

Go Muslim…go figure;

KF

[Myxtic]

____________________________

and hence i rerpeat the quote :

"Of all the world's greatest men none has been so much maligned as Muhammad."

(W Montgomery Watt, Muhammad At Medina, 1956, Oxford At The Clarendon Press, p. 324.)

thanxXx .... !!

i've got something for that shiny little arse ...

I am sure something is gravely wrong with this miserable Myxtic (Mystic?). Or else, why should this man quote W.Montgomery Watt again and again to convince himself he is following the true prophet and not a Satan?

Amazing Mytique.. do you know of this scholar you quote? Do you or your counterparts who habitually quote this man know of his real works on Muhammad and Islam?

"Muhammad at Medina" is a sequel to Watt’s “Muhammad at Mecca”. Both editions are published by the same publishers. These couple of apologetic works are a blend of both absurdities and some real facts too. Whenever mentions the character of Muhammad, the scholar goes nauseatingly apologetic. But the man could not ignore the staring facts throughout Muhammad’s life.

Here the topic is Muhammad’s paedophilic affair with Aisha. See what Mr. Watt says on that marriage:

Aisha was still a child when Muhammad married her, and she continued to play with her toys. [W. Montgomery Watt. Muhammad At Medina/ Oxford At The Clarendon Press.1977: Page:323]



Next, Watt is furious on the true picture that European scholars like Sir. William Muir drawn with sufficient amount of objectivity added to their works. Now see Watt himself can not hide the true face of Muhammad in the same book our great Muslim debater (who jumped into Winston’s hands without ever knowing of the consequences) quoted:

There is some evidence that, besides his regular marriages and his unions with concubines, Muhammad had relations with women in accordance with the older matrilineal customs. [W. Montgomery Watt/ Muhammad in Medina: Oxford at the Clarendon Press. 1977 Page: 284.]

Watt can not stop there. As he moves on:

In connexion with the other verse Aisha is said to have made the remark “God is in hurry to satisfy your desires". Even if she really said this (and it is not a later invention), it would only show that Aisha was suspicious of the correspondence between the revelation and Muhammad’s desires. [W. Montgomery Watt /Muhammad At Medina: Oxford at the Clarendon Press: Page: 325]

Now, let us see Watt’s first work in the sequel, Muhammad at Mecca:

Firstly, at one time, Muhammad must have publicly recited the Satanic verses as part of the Quran; it is unthinkable that the story could have been invented later by Muslims or foisted upon them by non-Muslims. Secondly, at some later time Muhammad announced that these verses were not really part of the Quran and should be replaced by others of a vastly different import. [W. MOntgomary Watt/ Muhammad at Mecca: Oxford at Clarendon Press. 1968: Page: 103]

the obvious reason behind quoting him was to show ...

that even a critic of Islam admits that Prophet Muhammad has been maligned more than anyody else ...

was that so difficult for you to understand Mr. Scholarly ... ??

My dear mysterious, I am by no means trying to engage with you because this is Winston's turn.

& in English we call such people as trolls ...

(This must be your bad time because you selected the real demolition man)

yeah he may be ...

that remains to be seen though ...

I just made it clear for you Muslim, the scholars you quote in your defense did not always froth your Muhammad. This is not something your Mullahs will tell you, but just keep in mind: when you jump on others with the silly scraps those Mullahs inject directly to your brain. They are not going to work here for the reason this is FFI, the bugbear of Muslims..,

NOW:

If my great challenger can read English well and handle scholarly articles; just go through the link where Hector along with Abdulwalid demolished you Muslim zealots’ acrobatics.

Before clicking the link, make sure to keep that seventh century hate manual away from you because the constant contact with it will dull your brain to not fathom a word Hector or Abdulwalid speaks out.

Evidence Muhammad was a Paedophile<<<<<click here>>>>>

show me something i have not seen before ...

Go figure, I just posted this for a purpose and that is to expose the shallowness of you because I know you are nowhere near to a contester to the level of Winston.

Go Muslim…go figure;

KF

ahahhaa ... oh cmon Khalil ...

stop being Winston's boot-licker

it doesnt suit you Mr. Scholarly ...






thanxXx ... !!

[KhaliL]

Spoiler! :

i've got something for that shiny little arse ...

What about this Myxtic?

Spoiler! :

the obvious reason behind quoting him was to show ...

that even a critic of Islam admits that Prophet Muhammad has been maligned more than anyody else ...

was that so difficult for you to understand Mr. Scholarly ... ??

Oh No dear son..,

I know all your problems and I am here to answer all your prayers...!!!

If even a critic of Islam admits that your prophet has been maligned, his wife admits he had been under Satan's influence for sometimes. See this is one of your mothers (Ummahat-ul-Muemineen) speaks up:

Narrated Aisha: Once the Prophet was bewitched so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done. [Sahih Bukhari: Book: 53, Hadith: 400]

Whom will you believe now? Your mother or W.M. Watt?

& in English we call such people as trolls ...

We have a good moderating team to decide who trolls. Preserve your fuel.. Okay?

yeah he may be ...

that remains to be seen though ...

Spoiler! :

show me something i have not seen before ...

Sure; if you are generous enough to reveal what and not you seen before.

ahahhaa ... oh cmon Khalil ...

stop being Winston's boot-licker

it doesnt suit you Mr. Scholarly ...

Do you think I will get offended by your vulger phrasing? What makes you deluded?

But is it good enough to expose your Allah and Muhammd to the nasty attacks of an Ex-Muslim?

Next time, think before you discharge words. And take very good care of your IMAN. It is not something you can afford to lose.

Can you?

I will not turn towards you in person but my target will be your Allah and Muhammad.

Do not expose those vulnerable freaks..!!! Stop being a potty mouth or else they will be in the receiving end;

Good night boy, It is late in your holy land...

KF

[Cassie]

Muhammad is the most maligned person because he was the most evil person. What sort of sick creep would bonk a nine year old child? A pedophile, that's what.

[Connedbymo+co]

Myxtic wrote:
Point # 3

what was Prophet Muhammad waiting for 3 years after the nikah ... ??

ofcourse he wanted Hazrat Ayesha to attain puberty ....

Because she lost her hair:

Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234:
Narrated Aisha:

The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.

[skynightblaze]

I see you brought nothing new that I have ever seen. I will have to repeat myself yet another time.Claim of Tirmidhi is contradicted by Sahih hadiths which are more reliable

o really ... ??

Are you really deluded that you are making strong arguments? Well the reason Winston decided to debate you was to show the world how pathetic muslims like you are.You are defending a crime!! Having sex with a kid as old as 9 irrespective of whether the kid matured or not is considered as indecent act and if Muhhamad was alive today he would have beaten black and blue and put in jail by the society for molesting a kid. A decent society would never tolerate such acts!! Winston has won the debate even before it has started and he won the moment you accepted that sahih hadiths are true.

ahahahha ...

did i ever say it is right just b/c it is was a custom ... ??

you confused blind ... i have just discussed the puberty of Hazrat Ayesha in Section A ...

better read with your eyes before opening your mouth to blabber ...

As if what you wrote is correct you criminal defender !!. Lets see what you wrote in defense of holy paedophile of yours.

we know none of the Arabs ever raised this issue against Prophet Muhammad ...
as it was a costum then to marry girls after their puberty/menstrual cycle ...

Let me demolish you liar!!
(Sahih Bukari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 63).

Narrated Sahl bin Sad: While we were sitting in the company of the Prophet a woman came to him and presented herself (for marriage) to him. The Prophet looked at her, lowering his eyes and raising them, but did not give a reply. One of his companions said, "Marry her to me O Allah's Apostle!" The Prophet asked (him), "Have you got anything?" He said, "I have got nothing." The Prophet said, "Not even an iron ring?" He Sad, "Not even an iron ring, but I will tear my garment into two halves and give her one half and keep the other half." The Prophet; said, "No. Do you know some of the Quran (by heart)?" He said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "Go, I have agreed to marry her to you with what you know of the Qur'an (as her Mahr)." 'And for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature). (65.4) And the 'Iddat for the girl before puberty is three months (in the above Verse)


The period after which divorced pre pubescent girl can remarry is 3 months.This is regarding the verse 65:4. So there goes your argument crashing !!Now like a good muslim you would resort to twisting facts as always you have been doing so let me take care of that too.Let us read Ibn KAthir on this for clarification:

The `Iddah of Those in Menopause and Those Who do not have Menses
Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. [see 2:228] The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause. This is the meaning of His saying;

All the Tafsir scholars attest to this fact.
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=65&tid=54196

hahahaha Your lies are getting exposed one by one. Marrying pre pubescent girls was allowed by your con man. Blame him and not me.65:4 is talking about waiting period of pre pubescent girls before they can re marry.

Spoiler! :

Who told you Aisha was mature at 9 ? Aisha wasn’t mature till 16-17 years so if at all your holy crap wanted to wait he should have for 6-7 years or more. I. Your own hadiths attest to this fact and also your own link.Again See reply to point 4 of yours below.


then lets see those ahadith ...



Even if you show some links which tell us that girls matured at the age of 7-8 it still wont work because what matters is whether Aisha reached physically and mental maturity or not.

See how your baloney attempt fails here.

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 48, 829
Buraira said, 'No, by Allah Who has sent you with the Truth, I have never seen in her anything faulty except that she is a girl of IMMATURE AGE, who sometimes sleeps and leaves the dough for the goats to eat.

This incident of the 'slander' against Aisha can be dated from surah 24. It is thought to have occurred during the 'campaign against Bani al-Mustaliq' which is commonly believed to have occurred around 5-6AH.
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/quran/ ... mau24.html

This means that Aisha, being born in 9BH, was still an immature girl when she was around 13-14 years old.Your own hadiths testify the fact that she was an mentally immature girl when she was 13-14.This proves that she was raped by muhhamad when she was 9 .Also see this from your own link.

the hadith translator uses the word 'immature' just for 'young'

like read this hadith :

Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 48, Number 805:

Narrated Urwa bin Al-Musayyab, Alqama bin Waqqas and Ubaidullah bin Abdullah:

About the story of 'Aisha and their narrations were similar attesting each other, when the liars said what they invented about 'Aisha, and the Divine Inspiration was delayed, Allah's Apostle sent for 'Ali and Usama to consult them in divorcing his wife (i.e. 'Aisha). Usama said, "Keep your wife, as we know nothing about her except good." Buraira said, "I cannot accuse her of any defect except that she is still a young girl who sleeps, neglecting her family's dough which the domestic goats come to eat (i.e. she was too simpleminded to deceive her husband)." Allah's Apostle said, "Who can help me to take revenge over the man who has harmed me by defaming the reputation of my family? By Allah, I have not known about my family-anything except good, and they mentioned (i.e. accused) a man about whom I did not know anything except good."

the speaker simply says that Hazrat Ayesha was a young girl who was neglecting some of her duties ...

how the hell does that mean she hadn't attained puberty ??

Pathetic Mohhamedian this hadith indicates that she was mentally immature even at 13-14. One can imagine how mature she must be when she was 9. Now your so called holy profit had sex with her when she was mentally immature. An immature woman cannot consent for sex and hence that’s a rape. The hadith was quoted to prove Aisha’s mental immaturity even at 13-14 . TO prove physical maturity I brought Khalil Fariel’s post. The context in which the word is used tells us that Aisha was intellectually Immature according to Buraira and he was blaming her youth for that.Your prophet was not only a paedophile but also a rapist.

Consider the most basic question of such inquiry: What constitutes a victim of child sexual abuse? By definition, pedophiles prey on the prepubescent. No one would seriously argue that a 6- or even 10-year-old can meaningfully consent to sexBut what about those 12 and older, who make up nearly half of all juvenile sex-abuse victims?
http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/cloud_ped_time.htm

IF you have doubts that this doesn’t tell us about her physical maturity then lets see another argument.


did you even notice that i quoted the definition of pedophilia a/c to American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual ??

but what you have quoted is John Cloud's bloody personal opinion !!

Mate try these stupid of games somewhere else.John Cloud ‘s opinion is not wrong anyway. It can be seen from the complete definition of paedophilia . Please read the complete definition provided by Sanitarium and enjoy .Instead of reading intellectual bankrupt quran read the definition twice a day . IT will take only a minute and enjoy the pleasant effect that it will have on your mind. Muhhamad satisfies the definition aptly !!

Please take the following Shahada everytime you read that definition!!

Everything has the right to be worshipped except Allah and Muhhamad is a paedophile

even a blind man can see that Hazrat Ayesha was upset just b/c ...
she thought she wouldnt be able to perfrom the Hajj due to her menses ...
& that was why Prophet Muhammad was trying to console her ...
see ... so simple

It seems logic is your not domain. You are repeating the same baloney argument that has been already debunked in that link I gave you .I had also asked you read the link to avoid repeating the same here but it seems that you will go to any extent to defend your 7th century illiterate camel rider. I am not concerned as to why Aisha was weeping. Khalils case revolved around the fact that Muhhamad was consoling her and giving her assurance that menses wont harm her.
If Aisha had already matured would she be required to be told that menses cannot harm her? IT clearly indicates that it was the first time experience.Muhhamad tries to console her by saying that Allah has ordained it for All the daughters of Adam and it wont harm you. This consolation would be required only if she didn’t have previous experience. Now let us see what muhhamads reply to Safiyah was when it was her turn of menses.

Narrated 'Aisha: We set out with the Prophet with the intention of performing Hajj only. The Prophet reached Mecca and performed Tawaf of the Ka'ba and between Safa and Marwa and did not finish the Ihram, because he had the Hadi with him. His companions and his wives performed Tawaf (of the Ka'ba and between Safa and Marwa), and those who had no Hadi with them finished their Ihram. I got the menses and performed all the ceremonies of Hajj. So, when the Night of Hasba (night of departure) came, I said, "O Allah's Apostle! All your companions are returning with Hajj and 'Umra except me." He asked me, "Didn't you perform Tawaf of the Ka'ba (Umra) when you reached Mecca?" I said, "No." He said, "Go to Tan'im with your brother 'Abdur-Rahman, and assume Ihram for 'Umra and I will wait for you at such and such a place." So I went with 'Abdur-Rahman to Tan'im and assumed Ihram for 'Umra. Then Safiya bint Huyay got menses. The Prophet said, " 'aqra Halqa! You will detain us! Didn't you perform Tawaf-al-Ifada on the Day of Nahr (slaughtering)?" She said, "Yes, I did." He said, "Then there is no harm, depart." So I met the Prophet when he was ascending the heights towards Mecca and I was descending, or vice-versa. [Sahih Bukhari. Book 26, Hadith 815]

Why don’t see the same kind of words used to console Safiya here? Its because it wasn’t the first time for Safiyah. See the difference between 2 styles? The style with which he conversed with Aisha indicates that she was having the first experience and that’s why needed to be told that it wont harm her and Allah has already made it for all the daughters of Adam and not just her.

To further cement my case I would like to add another hadith.

A'isha said. The women in those days were light of weight and they did not wear much flesh, as they ate less food; so they did not perceive the weight of my haudaj as they placed it upon the camel as I was A YOUNG GIRL at that time. Barira said: By Him Who sent thee with the truth, I have seen nothing objectionable in her but only this much that she is A YOUNG GIRL and she goes to sleep while kneading the flour and the lamb eats that. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6673)

The above quote clearly indicates that women in those days didn’t have a healthy diet. Malnutrition results into delay in puberty.

In Europe and America, and probably in other cultures, the average age at which a girl first menstruates has gradually declined in recent historical times, the possible reasons being better nutrition and health (b

Researchers noted the trend 140 years ago. In 1860 the average menarche happened at 16.6 years, in 1920 at 14.6, in 1950 at 13.1 and 1980, 12.5 years.
Kluge (by the way, klug means smart in German) attributed the early maturation mostly to obesity caused by fast food. Lack of fat can also stop menstruation, which is what happens with anorexia.

http://www.mum.org/menarage.htm

Considering this biological fact we can see that undernourishment delays puberty than the normal. so even if we take normal as 9 (which is not true as the link states that it is around 12-13 .) still it would mean that AIsha wasnt mature at 9 because of this fact alone .If you take 12-13 as normal and then consider the undernutrition factor it goes to 15-16 which is in agreement with the hadith.

Also check this.

for more info .

In the light of above we can see that Muhhamad will always be regarded as complete paedophile and a rapist!!

YOu have already lost the case as I have proved Aisha wasnt pre pubescent so this post is as good as useless. and about such a girl being fit for sex Ofcourse she is not my naïve friend!! TO make such claims you need to read your link carefully.

your foolishness above has already been debunked ...

You are dreaming lad!

[skynightblaze]

Read the part in red and then the part in blue.The hormone secretion is a must for a girl to reproduce and it starts at 12-13 as per the link given by you. See ITS atleast 12-13 and not 9 !!!Now tell me without being emotional, is such a girl fit for sex? Which morality law is defied here?

and the same link says :
It is this period when menstruation starts and marks the beginning of the reproduction cycle in her life.
hence it is mentruation that marks the beginning of the reproduction cycle though yes ... the age mentioned in that link is around 12 ...but obviously the age span is never definite & constant ...it is bound to be variable ...
no sane person should find that difficult to undertand ...

"Just as some girls begin puberty earlier or later than others, the same applies to periods. Some girls may start menstruating as early as age 9 or 10, but others may not get their first period until later in their teens."

http://womens-health.health-cares.net/m ... period.php

Brain dead mohhamedian your link say It MAY and not IT DOES!! There is a difference between the 2 statements . There is no reason why we consider Aisha to have reached that age unless you prove that. There are also cases of late puberty why not compare Aisha with them? Why compare Aisha with exceptions ? Do you see stupid your claims are? Further I have proved above Aisha cannot be mature at 9 especially when she was undergoing malnutrition.Malnutrition delays puberty . So even If normal is considered as 9-10 malnutrition would delay it and thereby proving Muhhamad f.cked a pre pubescent kid .Btw Please prove that AIsha had reached puberty when Muhhamad had sex with her.

A psychiatric diagnosis of pedophilia merely indicates one's desires; not all pedophiles act on their urges and actually commit child sexual abuse. Plenty of sexual abuse of kids is committed by ordinary people not generally attracted to children. That's one reason the incidence of child sexual abuse is so maddeningly high. A Department of Health and Human Services study estimates that victimizers sexually abused 93,000 U.S. children in 1999 (the latest year for which data are available). But there is some good news. Last year the Department of Justice reported that the number of substantiated cases of child sexual abuse has been decreasing, from a peak of nearly 150,000 in 1992 to about 104,000 in 1998--a drop of almost one-third. The authors say vigorous incarceration of offenders over the past few years may be partly responsible.


http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/cloud_ped_time.htm

Your own link says that’s sexual abuse.

you repeated the same idiotic argument ...John Cloud failed to give a source for what he wrote there ...
and hence once again ...what you have quoted is John Cloud's personal opinion ...

whereas what i quoted was a/c to American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual

How about referring to a complete definition provided by Sanitarium? Mate this the 21st century and not the 7th century where your camel rider would say something and it would be assumed as true. Whatever CLOUD said is a universally accepted fact.Going by your logic ITs OK TO MOLEST A KID IF YOU HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP WITH OLDER LADIES!! Is this what you call an argument? Ofcourse what can one expect from a person who thinks its ok to have sex with a kid!

Who told you that if a marriage proposal is sent and then sex is carried out with a child then its not a rape?

cmon you confused which child rapist marries his victim ??
a child rapist would have sex forcefully ... why does he need to marry his victim ...
that's common sense ...

Again I would like to remind you this is the 21st century and not the 7th century . Definition of rape is sex without consent . IT no where says that if the victim lives with the abuser then its not rape after the act. Even if you are married and you try to have sex with your wife without her consent that is considered as rape. Now your wife lives with you but that still would be considered as rape so your argument is more than cheap.

you pose serious doubts about your wisdom if you say that ...

If saying that its OK TO HAVE SEX WITH A year old KID is WISDOM I PITY YOU. There is no nothing I need to say.

your dumb arguments have already been debunked above ...

Lol. Let the readers decide it.

o yeah literary India ...

where any illeterate Hindu can jump in to write his pathetic articles ...
lets see the miserable standard of the idiot Swarup Sarkar who has written it ...
"Rape is Rape. It is not a gender issue. But when a women do the rape (sex without mutual consent) we term it as a love, affections or it is her birth right to do the same against any men and if any men try to fight back or dear to dream of say the truth, the man will be termed as rapist instead of terming Victim of rape."
it seems that this loser never even studied at high-school ...

The author is a kafir in 21st century . Mate if you have misconceptions that your whatever 7th century profit said was intellectual then you better keep those pearls of wisdom with you but we kafirs can differentiate between crap and something intellectual .The point of the author is sex without consent by any sex is classified as rape and it is a well established fact.

Btw Muhhamad fancied kids other than AIsha too. For e,g a thought of marrying a crawling baby, asking a person to marry little girl so that he could fondle her, Asking a little girl having wet nurse to submit herself in sex to him and also kissing young boys.If you want I would quote references here.

bring it on windbag ... !!
bring on the references ...

Here is your paedo hero in action.

Ishaq:311 “The Apostle saw Ummu’l when she was a baby crawling before his feet and said, ‘If she grows up, I will marry her.’ But he died before he was able to do so.”

WOW I am yet to see a 50 + man feeling like marrying a crawling baby !! How many old men would have such filthy thoughts when they see a crawling baby!! Only filthy perverts!!

Look further you paedo apologist. WOw now the filthy pervert decides to go for a a girl who has a wet nurse!!

Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 63, Number 182:
Narrated Abu Usaid:
We went out with the Prophet to a garden called Ash-Shaut till we reached two walls between which we sat down. The Prophet said, “Sit here,” and went in (the garden). The Jauniyya (a lady from Bani Jaun) had been brought and lodged in a house in a date-palm garden in the home of Umaima bint An-Nu’man bin Sharahil, and her wet nurse was with her. When the Prophet entered upon her, he said to her, “Give me yourself (in marriage) as a gift.” She said, “Can a princess give herself in marriage to an ordinary man?” The Prophet raised his hand to pat her so that she might become tranquil. She said, “I seek refuge with Allah from you.” He said, “You have sought refuge with One Who gives refuge. Then the Prophet came out to us and said, “O Abu Usaid! Give her two white linen dresses to wear and let her go back to her family.” Narrated Sahl and Abu Usaid: The Prophet married Umaima bint Sharahil, and when she was brought to him, he stretched his hand towards her. It seemed that she disliked that, whereupon the Prophet ordered Abu Usaid to prepare her and to provide her with two white linen dresses. (See Hadith No. 541).

Enough is not enough and the pervert now goes on to suck the tongue of young boys!! :

Narrated by Hisham Ibn Kasim, narrated by Huraiz, narrated by Abdul Rahman Ibn Abu Awf Al Jarashy, and narrated by Mua’wiya who said,
“I saw the prophet – pbuh – sucking on the tongue or the lips of Al-Hassan son of Ali, may the prayers of Allah be upon him. For no tongue or lips that the prophet sucked on will be tormented (by hell fire).

From the Syrian Biography of Muhammad written by Al-Amin Al-Ma’moun, Chapter Title: “The first people to believe in the prophet.”

In mentioning the 10 specific qualities of the prophet, Al Zamakhshari mentioned that the prophet took charge of naming Ali and feeding him many days from his blessed saliva and having Ali SUCK ON THE PROPHET’S TONGUE.

For it was narrated by Fatimah Bint Asad, the mother of Ali – may Allah be pleased with her – who related that when she gave birth to her son, it was the prophet who named him Ali and the prophet spat in Ali’s mouth THEN ALLOWED HIM TO SUCK ON HIS TONGUE till he fell asleep.

She also said, “On a later day we requested a wet nurse for him (Ali) but he refused her breast so we called for Muhammad – pbuh – WHO PLACED HIS TONGUE IN ALI’S MOUTH and he fell asleep. This is the way it was as Allah willed it.”

Oh no you pervert kuffar those are lies !! How cud holy (s.a.w) be a paedophile! He is a prophet of GOD understand him with a open mind!

I would like to thank you for debunking yourself. Read your quote below to find emotional ,psychological and mental devastation.

>> IMAGINE !! a child who was abused (naauzubillah) raped, getting jealous of 'another wife' (Hazrat Khadija) of the same person who abused her (SAHIH BUKHARI Volume 7, Book 62, Number 156)

Also she fought a war against Ali resulting into killing of thousands of men .Also not to forget Aisha getting excessive jealous about Maria(chapter 66) These are signs of emotional disturbances .

so jealousy a/c to you is emotional & mental devastation
bah !! now with that you are reaching the damn heights of ignorance ...

IS it a sign of healthy mind? Competition between wives to get love from their husband is a healthy thing according to you? What about killing thousands of muslims that resulted because of Aisha? Oh yes I know this is a sign of perfectly balanced individual .!!! PATHETIC!!

Mate I would like to know the source of book from where you get these definitions!! I like your definition!! SO now all anyone has to do is rape a girl and make her narrate 2000 facts about him later and the charge of rape is nullified!! Lol

damn ... !! you are such a mindless blabber-mouth ...

where did i write a definition here
i just presented a fact ...
it is a dumb-bell who is trying to transform it into a definition ...

IS it a fact? Can I put this quote of yours in my signature so that the entire world can read the pearls of wisdom from a person stuck in 7th century? Just because some one goes on to narrate the hadiths afterwards rape is not rape!! Brilliant!!

So much that he required to visit only his 9 wives in one night and required some additional concubines !! Alas ordinary men who possibly have only 1 wife were like profit who could control his desires !

visiting a wife DOES NOT mean having sex with the wife ...

it is only your perverted thinking that makes you think like that ...

Oh yes instead of sleeping a man goes to his wives only at the night time. I wonder why he didn’t feel the need to visit them in the day time. . Also so much of control that people said he was supposed to have the strength of 30 men

Many muslims today are trying to do that. We have some of them on our forum. So are you ready to accept that Muhhamad was a COMPLETE /100 %/PERFECT PAEDOPHILE?

I know you would agree with me 100 % when I modify this quote

"Of all the world's greatest criminal men none has been so much respected as Muhammad when he is a disgrace to mankind .

it is funny how you want me to accept that ....

after you got your teeth broken badly about your feeble response ...

and hence i rerpeat the quote :


"Of all the world's greatest men none has been so much maligned as Muhammad."

(W Montgomery Watt, Muhammad At Medina, 1956, Oxford At The Clarendon Press, p. 324.)

You broke my teeth ? YOu deluded Paedo apologist come out of the 7th century manual. Its hight time you realize that you live in the 21st century .It’s a promise that I will be the last one to modify this quote.TO be frank it saddens me to see that people like you have no care for little girls at all and you need definitions to be prove that the act was wrong. Just have a look at the activities of a 9 year old girl for an hour and feel their innocence and simplicity. If you can feel that then you will realize what a monster was your holy prophet!! If you cant experience the feelings of the kid then you have lost your humanity!!

[Universal]

TO be frank it saddens me to see that people like you have no care for little girls at all and you need definitions to be prove that the act was wrong. Just have a look at the activities of a 9 year old girl for an hour and feel their innocence and simplicity. If you can feel that then you will realize what a monster was your holy prophet!! If you cant experience the feelings of the kid then you have lost your humanity!!

This says it all

[Aksel Ankersen]

As per your request sky, I moved my post.

Section A : Refuting the Filthy Pedophilia Charge


1) Definition of Pedophilia a/c to American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual

a/c to American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, Pedophilia is :

"n. recurrent, intense, sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges or behaviors involving sexual activity with a PREPUBESCENT child"
http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/cloud_ped_time.htm



"Pedophilia is considered a paraphilia, an abnormal or unnatural attraction. Pedophilia is defined as the fantasy or act of sexual activity with PREPUBESCENT children."
http://psychologytoday.com/conditions/pedophilia.html


the definitions mention 'PRE-PUBESCENT' children ...





2) Had Hazrat Ayesha Attained Puberty ??

No.

No hadith even attempts to claim Aisha was post-pubescent, simply put, the early Muslims were unashamed of comitting pedophilia and made no effort to conceal it.

Point # 1

Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Kitab al-Nikah, Hadith no. 1027 :

وقد ‏ ‏قالت ‏ ‏عائشة ‏ ‏إذا بلغت ‏ ‏الجارية ‏ ‏تسع سنين فهي امرأة

Hazrat Ayesha said,"When the girl reaches nine years of age, she is a woman."



obviously Hazrat Ayesha is referring to herself as a woman, at the time of her marriage

Dear Myxtic

This referrence actually proves the opposite to what you intend, Aisha's early marriage to the Prophet set a precedent that it was fine for mature men to marry and have sex with nine year old girls.

Point # 2

we know none of the Arabs ever raised this issue against Prophet Muhammad ...

as it was a costum then to marry girls after their puberty/menstrual cycle ...

This is unproven and doubtful. Pedophilia was both common and approved in certain societies, ranging from Ancient Greece to Papua New Guinea. Please prove the pagan Arabs abhored pedophilia.

More importantly, the hadiths also prove that marriage of pre-pubescent girls in Islam is legitimate: Cf. Sahih Bukari, Kitab an-Nikah, number 63

Point # 3

what was Prophet Muhammad waiting for 3 years after the nikah ... ??

ofcourse he wanted Hazrat Ayesha to attain puberty ....

Tabari gives an alternative explanation (I'm assuming you accept Tabari, as you quoted Tirmidhi): Muhammad did not have the gold to pay the sadaq.

Spoiler! :

"The Prophet left us and his daughters behind when he emigrated to Medina. Having arrived at Medina, he sent Zayd b. Harithah and his client Abu Rafi’ for us. He gave them two camels and 500 dirhams he had taken from Abu Bakr to buy [other] beasts they needed. Abu Bakr sent with them ‘Abdallah b. Urayqit al-Dili, with two or three camels. He wrote to [his son] ‘Abdallah b. Abi Bakr to take his wife Umm Ruman, together with me and my sister Asma’, al-Zubayr’s wife, [and leave for Medina]. They all left [Medina] together, and when they arrived at Qudayd Zayd b. Harithah bought three camels with those 500 dirhams. All of them then entered Mecca, where they met Talhah b. ‘Ubaydallah on his way to leave town, together with Abu Bakr’s family. So we all left: Zayd b. Harithah, Abu Rafi’, Fatimah, Umm Kulthum, and Sawdah bt. Zam‘ah. Ayd mounted Umm Ayman and [his son] Usamah b. Zayd on a riding beast; ‘Abdallah b. Abi Bakr took Umm Ruman and his two sisters, and Talhah b. ‘Ubaydallah came [too]. We all went together, and when we reached Bayd in Tamanni my camel broke loose. I was sitting in the litter together with my mother, and she started exclaiming "Alas, my daughter, alas [you] bride"; then they caught up with our camel, after it had safely descended the Lift. We then arrived at Medina, and I stayed with Abu Bakr’s children, and [Abu Bakr] went to the Prophet. The latter was then busy building the mosque and our homes around it, where he [later] housed his wives. We stayed in Abu Bakr’s house for a few days; then Abu Bakr asked [the Prophet] "O Messenger of God, what prevents you from consummating the marriage with your wife?" The Prophet said "The bridal gift (sadaq)." Abu Bakr gave him the bridal gift, twelve and a half ounces [of gold], and the Prophet sent for us. He consummated our marriage in my house, the one where I live now and where he passed away."

-The History of Al-Tabari: Biographies of the Prophet’s Companions and Their Successors, translated by Ella Landau-Tasseron [State University of New York Press, Albany 1998], Volume XXXIX, pp. 171-173

Even assuming Tabari was wrong - as he is unreliable - it would not be unusual for a pedophile to know his intended child partner for some years before initiating sexual contact. This is known as "grooming". A survey by the Mayo Clinic revealed heterosexual male pedophiles prefered girls in the age range of 8-10 years, and frequently met them when they were even younger cf. "A profile of Pedophilia: Definition, Characteristics of Offenders, Recidivism, Treatment Outcomes and Forensic Issues" by Hall& Hall Page 459 (on the same page are given statistics showing that 93% of these pedophiles engaged in adult relationships also).

Point # 4

it is not rare/abnormal for the girls to attain puberty around 7 or 8 years ...

On the contrary it is and always was unusual for girls to attain nubility at such a young age.

Average age at menarche in Europe, 1830-1960



(Tanner 1955)

Throughout the Northern Hemisphere, for the past 200 years, age at menarche has been decreasing in linear fashion. This correlates with the Industrial Revolution, changes in diet and the move of the poulation to more densely inhabited cities (with an associated pheremone effect), so it would be unrealistic to extrapolate the trend back 1400 yrs; nevertheless, average age at menarche was about 17-18 in pre-industrialized society.

There is also no significant climatic effect on a girls age at nubility (i.e. between warm Arabia and cold Europe)

For the period 1840-1880 the following mean ages of menarche were determined. (Bojlen and Bentzon 1968)

Manchester (1832) 14.7 years
Jamaica (1842) 14.3 years
Calcutta (1845) 13.2 years
Bombay (1846) 13.8 years
Madeira (1846) 15.9 years
Barbados (1848) 16.4 years
West Greenland (1865) 14.4 years
Denmark (1860) 16.3 years
London (1869) 15.5 years

References

Bojlen and Bentzon (1968) "The Influence of Climate and Nutrition on Age at Menarche: A Historical Review and A Modern Hypothesis"

Tanner (1955) Growth at adolescence. Blackwell Scientific Publications, Oxford

If Aisha was below the average age of menarche when the Prophet consumated his marriage to her, the onus is upon you to prove she was pubescent; the most parsimonious explanation in the light of the available evidence is that she was pre-pubescent.

[skynightblaze]

As per your request sky, I moved my post.

Thank you very much!

[sunshine]

I am sure Mystics will never let his own nine year old girl be married to a 53 year old pervert. but when it comes to islam everything is fair even if he does not believe it in his own life.

[fudgy]

On the contrary it is and always was unusual for girls to attain nubility at such a young age.

Average age at menarche in Europe, 1830-1960



(Tanner 1955)

Throughout the Northern Hemisphere, for the past 200 years, age at menarche has been decreasing in linear fashion. This correlates with the Industrial Revolution, changes in diet and the move of the poulation to more densely inhabited cities (with an associated pheremone effect), so it would be unrealistic to extrapolate the trend back 1400 yrs; nevertheless, average age at menarche was about 17-18 in pre-industrialized society.

There is also no significant climatic effect on a girls age at nubility (i.e. between warm Arabia and cold Europe)

For the period 1840-1880 the following mean ages of menarche were determined. (Bojlen and Bentzon 1968)

Manchester (1832) 14.7 years
Jamaica (1842) 14.3 years
Calcutta (1845) 13.2 years
Bombay (1846) 13.8 years
Madeira (1846) 15.9 years
Barbados (1848) 16.4 years
West Greenland (1865) 14.4 years
Denmark (1860) 16.3 years
London (1869) 15.5 years

References

Bojlen and Bentzon (1968) "The Influence of Climate and Nutrition on Age at Menarche: A Historical Review and A Modern Hypothesis"

Tanner (1955) Growth at adolescence. Blackwell Scientific Publications, Oxford

If Aisha was below the average age of menarche when the Prophet consumated his marriage to her, the onus is upon you to prove she was pubescent; the most parsimonious explanation in the light of the available evidence is that she was pre-pubescent.[/color]

Who told you that it is unusual for girls to start puberty at the age of say 8? Girls may start their puberty between age of 8-13, there's nothing abnormal about a 9 yr old attaining puberty.

Your graph represent recent historical data. In ancient Rome or Greece, and Medieval Middle East avg age of menarche was around 12-13 yrs. An average is simply an expected value, it's not unusual to find someone achieving menarche at 9 even though the average might be say 12 yrs.

Muhammad had like what 10 wives with an expected value of 37 years of age. I've asked people before to find the number of frequency of young girls in marriages, most of them are older widowed women. Pedophile is someone who has a sexual preference for children; please don't give me that crap about how Aisha was his favorite wife. Now, with that standing you might ponder why would a 9yr old get married to a much older men? That is a perfect normal question, which I won't object much to. Again, we are talking about Hadiths as I don't believe in much of it anyway. At any rate, in ancient times girls do seemed to get married at young age to a much older men. It was the norm at those period of time.

Nabil,

[Aksel Ankersen]

Who told you that it is unusual for girls to start puberty at the age of say 8? Girls may start their puberty between age of 8-13, there's nothing abnormal about a 9 yr old attaining puberty.

Your graph represent recent historical data. In ancient Rome or Greece, and Medieval Middle East avg age of menarche was around 12-13 yrs.

We don't know that, as there were no statistics in that time period.

Pseudo-Albertus Magnus in 13th century De Secretis Mulierum claims the average age of menarche in his time was 14. Trotula of Salerno's 11th century work De Mulierum Passionibus cites 13-15 as an average.

I still maintain Myxtic's (or anyone else's) claim that it's normal for girls to attain nubility at age 7 to 8 is completely wrong.

Muhammad had like what 10 wives with an expected value of 37 years of age. I've asked people before to find the number of frequency of young girls in marriages, most of them are older widowed women. Pedophile is someone who has a sexual preference for children;

More than nine out of ten pedophiles also were attracted to adult women, see this Mayo Clinic survey I linked in my last post (here, page 459).

Now, with that standing you might ponder why would a 9yr old get married to a much older men? That is a perfect normal question, which I won't object much to. Again, we are talking about Hadiths as I don't believe in much of it anyway. At any rate, in ancient times girls do seemed to get married at young age to a much older men. It was the norm at those period of time.

Nabil,

K. Girls got married younger back then. I realize this is a touchy subject, but why did Muhammad consummate the marriage when his wife was only nine? Muhammad already had an adult wife at this time, Sawada bint Zama, he married her about three years before Aisha. I'm sure we would not be accusing Muhammad of pedophilia if he had just married Aisha when she was underage.