Lincoln X KhaliL: General Discussion on Islam

[KhaliL]

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Hey Lincoln,

Your posts have been swelling without much substance in them. I need to cut it short since I have been requested to make short inputs. Not many would bother to read tediously lengthy posts so; I would chop off irrelevant parts in your posts while answering it. Besides, I will make them in parts or else our readers will get bored to death going through lengthy inputs.

The rotten basics as you have now raised were initially hidden in your thought-process. As you have mentioned this now, I can go and assume what you are trying it say.
What are the basics of Islam..The very basics? As you were Muslim as per your claim! I believe you know that but those who don’t know about this , I am here informing them about the very basics of Islam..

1. Believing in ONE TRUE GOD .
And Believing in all the messengers of God, from the first Adam(Pbuh) to the very last Muhammad(Pbuh).
2. Praying to God five times a day.
3. Fasting in the month of Ramadan to feel the sufferings of the poor and to show the love towards God.
4. Paying Zakah(ofourse those who are wealthy)
5. Performing Hajj for those who are capable of.

We are not against Muslims performing any of the above. This is not what I mean rotten basics. Indeed there is rotten in them as I don’t approve the concept of Zakat. It only pays to create parasites relying on others’ generousness. This would sound harsh, but Zakat as an enterprise is not what a progressive religion should promote. Remember the ancient Chinese proverb: “If you give fish to a man, you feed him one day. If you teach him fishing, you feed him throughout his life”.

Zakat means giving fish. Did you get me?

Now, I am not dying to oppose the Zakat system, but these five pillars are not the basics I want you Muslims discard. You may keep performing them though I always wondered why many Muslims loose their precious lives on their way of earning money to go on pilgrimage to Mecca to round and round a Ka’ba, to kiss a black-stone, to run like a frantic in between two hills..!! Anyway, carry on you guys but there is a sixth pillar which makes Islam a real Messlam. It is Jihad. Indeed Muhammad did not mention it while telling his thugs on the pillars of the cult he invented but no Muslims can ignore the importance of Jihad because it is a holy ordinance. It is Quranically sanctioned, and as long as Quran remains, Muslims will keep at least longing for it to turn their living world and the rest Islamic.

Evolve from this basic. You can only do it by reinterpreting Jihad. Still no way because reinterpretation should not hold water all the times; Well, I will explain of Jihad and its importance in a Muslim’s life in an article. If you may please be patient, I am going to launch it soon in the FFI main site.

Now, these are the very basics of Islam and any person who sticks to these basics can be called a true Muslim. Are these basics pose any threat to the modern civilization. Are they rotten?.. Is there anything that might be harmful for the people of other faith? No there is nothing. And As you were Muslim, you know that these five aspects are called FIVE PILLERS OF ISLAM. So, what rotten basics you talk that much loudly.

I explained it above. Quran is the rotten basic. A manual which keeps you reminding the theory “We against them” is rotten. It is decrepit so discard it or rewrite it in the modern context.

Important factor here is: The five pillars are not mentioned in Quran as pillars of Islam. Quran gives equal importance to all those along with Jihad. Or I would rather say, Jihad being on top if one reads and tries to understand its message objectively. The last revealed chapter of Quran Surah Taubah carries the ultimate message of it. And it is full of incitement to go on offensive war.

And when we keep the basics with us, we can evolve dynamically regarding the new aspects of life that was alien to previous ages. Who doesn’t understand that.. So, we evolve by keeping our basics. Evolution of belief doesn’t mean you will have to give up your basics. (Even if you talk about the evolution of beings, you would find that even though you are multi-cellular, you have come from a unicellular being. Get the commonality of cell). The very basics of Islam are the nucleus of Islam and the surrounding gets changed according the demand and new-dimension of a particular age. But if you try to say that we should avoid the basics those I have quoted here then I say that yes! These basics are in on way can be termed as problematic let alone rotten to the age. Therefore, again, I am sorry to say that you didn’t get Islam in your days of being a Muslim that has eventually led you here.

Now, this exceeds the limit. Dude… Is your Islam such an innocuous stuff that it only commands you to prostrate, fast, give alms and go to that Sordid hellhole for pilgrimage? Aren’t there do’s and don’ts in Islam?

What are those goddamn do’s and don’ts you have to observe? What is the penalty of doing the don’ts?

Hey man… your Islam means more; a lot more than those five pillars. They are not the basics but they are what are imperative for you to be a Muslim but still there is a long way to go for you to become a true Muslim. Do not dole out nonsense here; who are you trying to fool out?

What is Sharia? Would you please explain to us and let us see whether Islam has any other side too than those great Basics you mentioned.
Islam can not be in terms with many of the modern concepts like democracy, secular humanism because these concepts are not approved by your seventh century hate manual. It has its own laws of governing people. In above you are trying to constrain your religion in your personal life only which is considered as blasphemous even by nineteenth century scholars like Maududi and Syed Qutub. You as a Muslim can not conciliate with Taghooti government but it is your duty to strive for an Islamic government wherever you are. If you are in a weak position (as you are in now I doubt) Quran commands you to cleverly hide your vicious motives and play Taqiyya until you gain the upper-hand.

How can we make sure you are not playing Taqiyya now? After all, it is Quranically sanctioned or prescribed for a Muslim to hide his real motives while staying under infidel system until Muslims overwhelm infidel in numbers thus get the edge. (You may take it in any sense)

What happens when a Sharia state is established? How is an infidel treated under Sharia? What about Jizya which is also a holy decree found in Quran? How do you punish petty offences like dating, adultery? Can you please be overt a little?

The every violent part has its context to it and you will have to ponder on the context before attributing those verses. When the Glorious Quran says that "fight those who fights you".. You know with whom you are eligible to fight. When you see the verse "Kill them wherever you find them".. read the context, as it doesn’t refer you to kill every one rather a specific group that declared war against Islam. When you read "smite their necks", you should get the context that its an action in battle.. Therefore, there are explanation of those so called 'violent ' verses and we are providing with those explanations because we want people to live in peace and happiness. Now, if anyone wants to create a confusion in todays world then he/she can explain those things in a different way to create an altogether different picture which you might like! ..

Nice preaching but no cigar. Context argument is pure and uncorrupted nonsense given that your hate manual’s relevance protracts to the end of times. Please have not your cake and eat it too.

Of fighting, there are three clear stages as we understand from Quran.

Stage 1: Fighting was not prescribed in any chance. (Muhammad was in Mecca and if he and his alter-ego was foolish enough to fight then Meccans like he fought in his Medinan life, world would have been safe from this burden. (What a chance those Meccans Missed...!)

Stage 2: Fighting prescribed in self defence. (This was when Muhammad earned some followers in Medina. But self defence should be read as raiding others for livelihood. Ghazw: a pre-Islamic norm of plundering others has been implemented by Muhammad. Ghazw means anything that belongs to the other side making a legitimate target for the stronger party to plunder. Muhammad started from the raid of Waddan. His god from upstairs blessed him to raid others since it was the only way god could see his holy religion can be established on earth because his already bankrupt prophet and followers were much in need of booties, be it stolen or robbed.

Stage 3: Offensive Jihad ordained. (After Muhammad winning one third of Arabia, it was time for god to discharge hate verses. Quran Surah Taubah was revealed in this context. We see a frustrated god in it who is much concerned on why his faithful do not march on. Well, Tabuk war the last one Muhammad partook is notorious for many Muslims not participating in it. It was spring time in Arabia and like Muhammad and his god, not all of those barbarians were willing to go on and on)

So, do not play tricks with context argument. Even if you cling to context, we have all rights to believe the ultimate message of Quran is to fight infidels to subdue and submit them to Islam or forcing to pay Jizya in utter humiliation. It is what Quran chapter 9:29 means. The holy ordinance in 9:29 is not to fight those who fight Muslims but to fight those who do not believe in Allah and his apostle.

I have had debates on this with many Muslims in the past. I know what the ultimate message of your god is, or if you do not get it yet; let me link you to one of my articles which is in FFI archives now. Click the link below only if you don’t mind. (This is to save time and bandwidth and not to promote my making): http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index. ... e&sid=2036" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The definition and the outlook you have is different from what I have. I don’t take it as "going to the obsolete past" because everything that comes out from the past cant be termed as obsolete as long as it can survive in the modern world with sufficient vigor and as long as it can compete with any new findings of the modern age.

This is what it means freaking theological stubbornness. What relevance do you see in the verses below? Let me bring your Quran:

As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.[Quran: 5:38]

Don’t you think this brutality is obsolete? Hey man… it is an obsolete law like many other brutal laws you see in Hammurabi codex or Torah. But your barbarian Muhammad added it to his basket and carried out this punishment in his lifetime on a woman who stole something from what Muhammad plundered from other people. I say this beforehand for you to not waste your fuel there is a context, or punishment is only applied for huge offences kinds of freaking excuses. Here goes your Sahih Bukhari:

Narrated 'Urwa bin Az-Zubair: A lady committed theft during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle in the Ghazwa of Al-Fath, ((i.e. Conquest of Mecca). Her folk went to Usama bin Zaid to intercede for her (with the Prophet). When Usama interceded for her with Allah's Apostle, the color of the face of Allah's Apostle changed and he said, "Do you intercede with me in a matter involving one of the legal punishments prescribed by Allah?" Usama said, "O Allah's Apostle! Ask Allah's Forgiveness for me." So in the afternoon, Allah's Apostle got up and addressed the people. He praised Allah as He deserved and then said, "Amma ba'du ! The nations prior to you were destroyed because if a noble amongst them stole, they used to excuse him, and if a poor person amongst them stole, they would apply (Allah's) Legal Punishment to him. By Him in Whose Hand Muhammad's soul is, if Fatima, the daughter of Muhammad stole, I would cut her hand." Then Allah's Apostle gave his order in the case of that woman and her hand was cut off. Afterwards her repentance proved sincere and she got married. 'Aisha said, "That lady used to visit me and I used to convey her demands to Allah's Apostle [Sahih Bukhari: Book: 59, Hadith: 597]

Tell us what relevance do you see for this punishment in our times? Can you give this up? Well, if you do, that means you are not obeying your god and his messenger. That’s it;

To be continued............

[KhaliL]

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Continued from above:
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When we talk about independent sense of morality , we should talk about the origin of morality. Islam doesn’t deter us from being as moral as anybody can be. Therefore , the morality is always high in Islam.

Oh I see.., how high is morality in Islam?

I have a thread in Quran section of this forum on “wife swapping in Islam”. It is based on a stupid verse of Quran and some hadiths. Your god’s law: a divorced wife can not be taken back by her previous husband until she gets remarried to another man and the new husband tastes her sweetness. I am not making stuffs up but it is what your god prescribed and Muhammad explained. This links to it: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1375" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You may go through it if you don’t mind.

Besides, is it because of the high morals you guys can not even explain what constitutes adultery in Islam? I had asked this question in our old forum too and the only answer I got from a Muslim is: “Adultery in Islam means having sex with other than one’s four wives and concubines” (the number of concubines is not stipulated. It can make a thousand if you are rich enough to afford)

High morals..!! Yuckit…,

In quest of a solution, we go to past to find any resemblance of the problem we are in, if we find any resemblance of problems, we explore that with an intention to find a modern implementation of that in a modern sense. If we don’t find any resemblance, the best of the solution is chosen to solve an impending problem. Therefore, Islam has devised an unique way that is so much unique and so much different in compare to any other ideologies which makes Islam better. So, if anyone comments superficially without going to that deep understanding , I cant do more but hope that person's insight to be more deeper ..

You have idea of Qiyaz but how does it help you here? I am talking of problems that are not necessarily recruited for Qiyaz. (Analogical deduction). Just like in the case of a petty theft. You have holy ordinance and your prophet’s sunna to cut hands of a woman who steels something that you as a Muslim Jihadist robbed from an infidel.

Yup; this is the unique way devised by your holy man with the help of his alter-ego.

You see Lincoln; I am always getting pissed off when Muslims start to preach. You are doing it now and you can sense the pique in my words..!!

Don’t worry about the facts . they are right. What you asserted and what was my response are visible and therefore it would be better if you read the response once again. When a statement is made on a particular topic, you then don’t have any option to have an inductive conclusion of assumption.. You have again repeated the same old response of Argumentum and populum though its evident that I didnt use population or popularity to refute your claim rather I have provided with a more illustrative definition. But how you have conveniently missed this, is an wonder.. And my friend, what logical setting are you talking about !! Logic, I strictly follow, if you wish I would be delighted to show you more. But the fact here is that, don’t repeat same accusation without reading my response properly. Hope this will make you read more attentively. No offence.

I read it again and still I don’t see anything substantial. Your assertion was a logical fallacy highly based on the popularity of Islam as you came up instantly with number of Muslims in our world. If I accuse your Islam being a cult, you may please do not try to refute it by arguing huge popularity of Islam refutes me. That is not the way things work or should work. You can ask me what makes Islam a cult. You are yet to do it or else I would have made it clear within now. Again, let me reiterate: 1.5 billion or more adherents is not an indicative of Islam not being a cult. At the best, such an argument can prove Islam is a huge cult, in which’s case it is more frightening since most other cults in existence are constricted to few adherents only hence is trivial the threat they pose. But the threat of Islam can not be overlooked;

I told you once that there are differences among Muslims but we all are believers of the Glorious Quran. What do you understand by this matters a lot here for your reasoning. I don’t call them Kafirs i.e the infidels , but I do term them as misguided.

You can be a nice person in your heart dear friend; I am not much concerned of you being a threat to humanity. You might not call non-Muslims Kuffar or Infidels or you can be even lenient to call hardcore Kuffar as Muslims. That is not what I am concerned of. The problem is your book which uses the term kuffar, infidels, apes and swine, worst beasts.., I am concerned of the hate manual which you consider divine.

But my friend, you should go with the majority point of view, shouldn’t you?

Why should I exactly? Did I ever argue against Muslims? I always asserted the problem is Islam which is the fruit of Quran. I do not want to go with the majority point of view. I would rather go with Quran which is the base.

Therefore, you reasoning doesn’t refute my claim because again here you have shifted yourself to the extreme side of considering them as kafirs.. The reasoning is again too much ordinary because you have made the claim of them being non-Muslims.. So what comes out, at the end?.. Any Muslims who adopts extremism are Muslims but devoid of proper understanding because they are denying the majority opinion..

My reasoning is pure reasoning but yours again turns out to be argumentum ad populum. I am sorry to repeat this, because you are stuck on majority counts in Islam which in fact is not. There is a hadith in which Muhammad says “out of seventy two sects only one will be on the right path and all else will be in the wrong side”. Majority counts in a democracy but here when I am talking of the basics of Islam, what majority of Muslims today believes have not much pertinence as long as the basic the rotten basic remains. It would only be a matter of time this majority lining up with the now minority extremists. Ah… we see it in Pakistan as Taliban tightens their grip day by day and their popularity among the majority of peaceful Muslims grows alarmingly.

Problem is Quran. Your prophet’s Sunnah. If you can not get rid off these both, no apologetics are going to work.

The things that will occur just before the hour are the signs of that HOUR and it doesn’t have that much of relevance to the faith in general. Therefore, Muslims arent waiting for any miracle to happen that would save them from this ongoing defeats and so on.

Belief in the Day of Judgment is one of the pillars of your faith, yet you would preach The Hour does not have much relevance in your faith..!!!

And you are either lying or misinformed Muslims are not waiting for any miracles connected to The Hour. You are; because we see it in Sahih Bukhari as stones and trees betraying Jews at The Hour. Or The Hour will not happen until you Muslims fight Jews and will annihilate them with the help of talking stones and trees. If this is not a miracle, I am afraid I need to find another definition and explanation of miracle.

As I have mentioned you one verse of the Glorious Quran before in my post that Allah is JUST for everyone. Doesn’t matter you are Muslims or non-Muslim. If a non-Muslim works harder than a Muslim, then the non-Muslim will get success not the Muslim because Almighty God is just. Therefore, we Muslims arent waiting for any miracle. Period.

Yup, you might show me in one verse Allah is just. Of course if Allah has to be a moral agent, he should be just too but when the same Allah says in the same Quran he has created some from mankind and djinns destined to hell; I am afraid this claim of his being Just is a cruel hoax. Allah is Rahman or Raoof as he mentioned in Quran. That means he is just to all regardless of their beliefs in this world.(This is Sufi interpretation of "Rahman" hence should not necessarily be true. Allah was not just in the past to many people as we see in Quran; he destroying townships after townships. Anyway) But in hereafter, he is Raheem means merciful to only those who kept in line to him and gave him the due worship and reverence.

And do not repeat Muslims are not waiting for any miracle. If you do not, that means you still have a sound psychological make up but there are many miracles to happen in the world. Gog and Magog, Dajjal, Jesus’ second round in earth and after all talking stones and trees and the total annihilation of Jews… all these are miracles mentioned in Quran and Sahih Ahadith. If you do not believe in them, I am doubtful of you being a true Muslim though you claim to be one. Hey… I already said it is hard or has become extremely difficult to know which is which in the case of Muslims as 1.5 Billion or so Muslims seem to have equal number of versions of Islam. You can be someone unique and I don’t rule out this possibility too.

Whether Other texts have survived the pressure of time or not is not matter. What matters to the Muslims is that the Glorious Quran has survived and didn’t get adulterated.

I lost the flow of this debate, yet I think you were boasting Quran’s unadulterated status and preservation as a miracle of some kind. Quran survived like many other books survived in history. But why do you Muslim boast it is a glorious survival?

I just pause here as it is late here in Middle East now. Will deal with the rest of your post either tomorrow or by the weekend; please be patient..,

To be continued >>>>>>>

[Lincoln]

Hi greetings,

Islam has been in the center of debate for many years. Being a Muslim, I always think about the reason behind this and when I encounter people who want to demolish Islam , I find them complaining that Islam is imperialistic and Islam wants to subjugate the whole world. They talk about many things such as Dhimmi right, laws of an Islamic State, hatred, and most importantly Jihad. Someone would ask about right hand possessions, some other would ask about the penalty of apostates, so on. With this process , whats happening that many people are getting too much narrow minded to get the original message of Islam. Islam is the only force that can unite the humankind under one umbrella. Its only Islam that has this unique ability to create the universal brother-hood with its unique message. Those the non-muslim die hard FFIers who are reading this might think what crap I am writing here. To be frank, guys what I am writing here is very much truth. Let us see the whole world from a religious view point. There are Christians, Jews, Hindus , the followers of three great religions..and of course Muslims.. Islamic ideology is the common ideology of the world religions. Islam isn’t a new religion with new teachings that doesn’t approve any of the previous teachings. Islam accepts Jesus(pbuh) as one of the mightiest messenger sent by the Almighty God. The basic difference between Muslims and Christian is that Christian think Jesus is God, we Muslims say that he is a messenger of God.. We the Muslims and Christians can unite if we can solve this problem. Now, lets think about Jews.. Islam again accept Moses(pbuh) another mightier messenger of Almighty God and Islam in deed a pure monotheistic religion. So, we the jews and Muslims can unite if few problems can be solved.. Now, lets turn to Hinduism. We ask Hindus to read Vedas, their holiest book. To read that Almighty God is one ( Ekam ekvadetaim), and He doesn’t have any image! How wonderful that it perfectly matches with Islam…
Islam gives Maximum importance on believing in One Almighty God.
1. You will find this in Bible
2. You will find this in Jewish tankh
3. You will find this in Vedas
4. You will find this is Zoroastrianism

But its Islam that gives maximum effort on that. (Believing One Almighty God) We say it Tawhid( The unity of God)

Furthermore, Islam says that Almighty God sent more than two hundred thousand messengers and Muhammad(pbuh) is the last one of them.. Therefore, the window is open. Any teaching that talks about One Almighty God and the date of that teaching System more than 1500 years old, we Muslims become jubilant because we believe that Almighty God has sent thousands of messengers. And every messenger preached the same message that is Tawhid, the unity of God. So, when we read Vedas talking about Imageless Almighty God, we become happy. When we see that in Zoroastrianism, there is One Almighty God, we know that the message is same. Now is the for all of us to get united under the teachings of Almighty God. And we know that there hasn’t been any alteration in the Glorious Quran during the last 1400 years but we arent so sure about other scriptures that makes Quranic Message more appealing for its authenticity..

We are not against Muslims performing any of the above. This is not what I mean rotten basics. Indeed there is rotten in them as I don’t approve the concept of Zakat. It only pays to create parasites relying on others’ generousness. This would sound harsh, but Zakat as an enterprise is not what a progressive religion should promote. Remember the ancient Chinese proverb: “If you give fish to a man, you feed him one day. If you teach him fishing, you feed him throughout his life”.

Its nice to know that you arent against Muslims performing those fundamentals of Islam. Its also great to learn that you don’t take those as rotten basics. Here, I would like to inform you that every Muslim in his/her daily life thinks only about these basics and nothing comes in their mind except performing those. To be more precise in that, I would like to inform all that Muslims think about five times daily prayer more than anything else in terms of religious duties. A Muslim who does perform the above mentioned five aspects, are called a true Muslim as he performs the most important task.
I will deal with your conception of Zakah below but one fact that I will assert before putting my altercations of Zakah against your argument that your conception is again a misconception ,

Zakat means giving fish. Did you get me?

No. First of all, Zakah doesn’t mean giving fish as you implied by alluding the fish of that Chinese dictum!
Giving Zakah has much wider impact on the society as whole to make the society get rid of poverty. Every wealthy man has to pay Zakah to the poor and It has been stated that the zakah portion of the wealth of a man belongs to the poor. Now, how to pay Zakah! I see that on this part you have a different understanding from what we Muslims generally believe. Zakah can be paid to a multitude of people but in doing so the amount paid mightn’t be sufficient enough for them to start a new life. Therefore, the perfect way of paying Zakah is to pay big amount to a less number of people on order that they can get rid of poverty. And then in the next year, giving to another group of poverty stricken people with sufficient amount of money so that they can also get rid of poverty with that paid Zakah. In this way, gradually we can eradicate poverty. This is the aim of Zakah. It should be paid in a way that would make it more efficient in solving the problem of poverty. Its not like I am paying a person hundred bucks from my 15 thousand dollars of zakahs, because with that $100 , that poor person mightn’t be able to do anything. So, the best is to divide my 15 thousand to two poor person and that would make them able to withstand poverty. Now, if your personal choice is "paying zakah with small amount but to a multitude of people" , its your own choice that doesn’t have that much of effect on the poor. You then cant argue that your way of paying zakah is the way of paying Zakah! But unfornately , in your post you have used the metaphor of fish which is a specimen of your own judgment , not a paradigm of Islamic way of paying Zakah. And like you, I also don’t like that feeding fish once!

I explained it above. Quran is the rotten basic. A manual which keeps you reminding the theory “We against them” is rotten. It is decrepit so discard it or rewrite it in the modern context.

"We against them" isn’t the perfect clause to state the Quranic message. But indeed there are two groups , first the Believers and second the non-believers. They arent same. If I say, I am American and you are non-American, and therefore we have different ambition and different way to act in geo-politics, this doesn’t prove that I am alienating you from but it gives a proper identity of what you are and what I am.

Important factor here is: The five pillars are not mentioned in Quran as pillars of Islam. Quran gives equal importance to all those along with Jihad. Or I would rather say, Jihad being on top if one reads and tries to understand its message objectively. The last revealed chapter of Quran Surah Taubah carries the ultimate message of it. And it is full of incitement to go on offensive war.

"Jihad being on top of everything"---- -- Does a Muslim need to do Jihad all the day or he has to pray five times in a day? You definitely know about that , I bet. But still, you give more importance on the topic because that topic will help to defame Islam and Muslims.

Now, this exceeds the limit. Dude… Is your Islam such an innocuous stuff that it only commands you to prostrate, fast, give alms and go to that Sordid hellhole for pilgrimage? Aren’t there do’s and don’ts in Islam?

There are indeed do's and don’t do's! But the fact is that in every ideology there are do'sand don’t do's. But what makes a person Muslim, is important. What makes a person a perfect Muslim is important.

What are those goddamn do’s and don’ts you have to observe? What is the penalty of doing the don’ts?

In those do's and don’t do's , there isn’t any concept of blowing me in a crowded street.

Hey man… your Islam means more; a lot more than those five pillars. They are not the basics but they are what are imperative for you to be a Muslim but still there is a long way to go for you to become a true Muslim. Do not dole out nonsense here; who are you trying to fool out?

Islam obviously means more. Its so much profound but the superficial handling of it can make it look differently which the haters may like. I will emphasize on the imperatives and the optional doesn’t have that much significance as long as they are optional. Its imperative for Muslims to pray five times a day, Its obligatory for Muslims to fast in the month of Ramadan, its prerequisite of every wealthy Muslims to pay Zakah. Whosoever follows these imperatives perfectly , they are perfectly true Muslims. Why do you argue with these fact and try to emphasize things that arent imperative to Muslims.. You definitely know whats called "Fard-e- A'in"..

"Fooling out" My friend, it seems that this particular phrase is a favorite one of you! As you have been asking this again and again. Let me be frank, Khalil, what I am writing here is genuinely what we Muslims believe (The majority-90%), therefore, why the lame accusation you put forward.. When you are indulged in negative aspects too much and when you think only about flaws—the truth might seem alien!

What is Sharia? Would you please explain to us and let us see whether Islam has any other side too than those great Basics you mentioned.
Islam can not be in terms with many of the modern concepts like democracy, secular humanism because these concepts are not approved by your seventh century hate manual. It has its own laws of governing people. In above you are trying to constrain your religion in your personal life only which is considered as blasphemous even by nineteenth century scholars like Maududi and Syed Qutub. You as a Muslim can not conciliate with Taghooti government but it is your duty to strive for an Islamic government wherever you are. If you are in a weak position (as you are in now I doubt) Quran commands you to cleverly hide your vicious motives and play Taqiyya until you gain the upper-hand.

I
Its hate manual because you see this as hate manual.. Its wonderful because I see it wonderful. It definitely has laws and it has context of applying the laws. What I tried in my aforementioned writing is to show what a Muslim has to do in his daily life and what are the fundamentals of being a Muslim. But unfortunately, you have taken that too far where you reach the place of blasphemy. I am very much aware of my position and I know that no generalization fallacy of yours will do anything here. As long as the Taghoti government doesn’t do anything against us, why can we conciliate with them! Every Muslims first duty is transform himself into a good Muslim, by praying to God and by doing good deeds.

How can we make sure you are not playing Taqiyya now? After all, it is Quranically sanctioned or prescribed for a Muslim to hide his real motives while staying under infidel system until Muslims overwhelm infidel in numbers thus get the edge. (You may take it in any sense)

First of all, I don’t agree with you that Qur'an sanctions taqiyya.. "Telling lies is the mother of all sins"—don’t you know about this teaching of Islam while you were Muslims!? lets be very precise. According to Islam, you cant have pork, meaning you cant eat pork. But if you are in a place that there is no food except pork and you will die if you don’t eat, Pork becomes Halal in that context. Now, does this mean that Islam allows Muslims to eat pork? If you answer that yes! Islam does. And then if you write a big article on how pork becomes Halal, with the heading that Pork is Halal for Muslims, it wont make pork halal rather it would make yourself a deceit which you mightn’t like at all.. Therefore, we all should refrain from generalizing a statement. If your life is at stake , and one lie can save you, Islam will sanction that. But this doesn’t mean Islam generally allows telling lies.

What happens when a Sharia state is established? How is an infidel treated under Sharia? What about Jizya which is also a holy decree found in Quran? How do you punish petty offences like dating, adultery? Can you please be overt a little?

Overt explanation you want! A non-believer will be protected from any harm and the Islamic state will do it. To gain that specialty , they would have to pay tax, that is jiziya! Doesn’t matter where you live as a citizen in this modern world, you will have to pay a certain proportion of your income to the Government and its obligatory, in return the Govt will provide your necessary services. Islam does pretty much same with the non-Muslims as the Muslim government protects them.. And the punishment of dating and adultery won't be inflicted suddenly, it will be notified to everyone, the specific punishment of specific crimes, then the people who commits crimes will be sentenced. First of all, Islam doesn’t recognize adultery as petty crimes, and for dating they would be reprimanded… The most important thing you know that Islam doesn’t acknowledge any illicit love affairs and thus a proper action will be taken in order that the development of illicit love affairs are obstructed in the beginning.

Nice preaching but no cigar. Context argument is pure and uncorrupted nonsense given that your hate manual’s relevance protracts to the end of times. Please have not your cake and eat it too.

Of fighting, there are three clear stages as we understand from Quran.

Stage 1: Fighting was not prescribed in any chance. (Muhammad was in Mecca and if he and his alter-ego was foolish enough to fight then Meccans like he fought in his Medinan life, world would have been safe from this burden. (What a chance those Meccans Missed...!)

Stage 2: Fighting prescribed in self defence. (This was when Muhammad earned some followers in Medina. But self defence should be read as raiding others for livelihood. Ghazw: a pre-Islamic norm of plundering others has been implemented by Muhammad. Ghazw means anything that belongs to the other side making a legitimate target for the stronger party to plunder. Muhammad started from the raid of Waddan. His god from upstairs blessed him to raid others since it was the only way god could see his holy religion can be established on earth because his already bankrupt prophet and followers were much in need of booties, be it stolen or robbed.

Stage 3: Offensive Jihad ordained. (After Muhammad winning one third of Arabia, it was time for god to discharge hate verses. Quran Surah Taubah was revealed in this context. We see a frustrated god in it who is much concerned on why his faithful do not march on. Well, Tabuk war the last one Muhammad partook is notorious for many Muslims not participating in it. It was spring time in Arabia and like Muhammad and his god, not all of those barbarians were willing to go on and on)

So, do not play tricks with context argument. Even if you cling to context, we have all rights to believe the ultimate message of Quran is to fight infidels to subdue and submit them to Islam or forcing to pay Jizya in utter humiliation. It is what Quran chapter 9:29 means. The holy ordinance in 9:29 is not to fight those who fight Muslims but to fight those who do not believe in Allah and his apostle.

I have had debates on this with many Muslims in the past. I know what the ultimate message of your god is, or if you do not get it yet; let me link you to one of my articles which is in FFI archives now. Click the link below only if you don’t mind. (This is to save time and bandwidth and not to promote my making): http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. ... e&sid=2036

Great! First of all, I thank you for identifying the three stages though its your own hard work that has led you to find this. I would not cling to anything, but I would cling to you point to view to show that what Islam indeed offers us.
What these three stages mean to you Khalil. The three stages mean three different context, don’t they?. And we can also find the development of each context and why in three different times , three different messages were given. Its worth more deep reasoning than some cursory understanding..
Stage one:- If the scenario of today's world matches with the context of the stage one, there is no fighting! A Muslim shouldn’t even think to fight. If we read The Glorious Quran and the history of Islam, we will see that every action had a development that had led the action to be implemented. The developments are very important. No one can deny this thing. Moreover, The Quranic verses have its proper context of when to implement a particular verse and when not to...

‘’ Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them’’ (22:39)

''Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors'' (2:190)

If we consider all the verses in the Quran that deal with battle, we will get a perfect scenario of the message of the Glorious Quran. As you were Muslims, you might know one thing about Quran that it answers the questions that may arise in your mind after reading a particular verse. Which means the answer lies in the Quran. If you read 9:29, you see that Muslims are asked to fight with whom those don’t believe in Allah.. But why the permission of fight given? Read the verse no 22:39. Furthermore, The Glorious Quran is very much specific in identifying the enemies. It said clearly that fight those who fight you.(2:190). Finally, I would say that unfortunately, you are too biased to see the real message of the Quran and this has led you to believe that it sanctions attacking non-Muslims without any reason whatsoever. But the truth doesn’t comply with your understanding…

''And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture'' (2:78)


Abdullah bin Abu Aufa (May Allah be pleased with them) reported: On one occasion the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) was confronting the enemy. He waited until the sun had declined. Then he stood up to address the people and said, "O people! Do not wish for an encounter with the enemy. Pray to Allah to grant you safety; (but) when you encounter them, show patience, and know that Jannah is under the shades of the swords.''
[Narrated by Al-Bukhari and Muslim].

Imam Nawawi (one of the greatest hadeeth scholar and Islamic jurist of his time states '' The desire for war is prohibited, but when war becomes inevitable, one should not show his back to the enemy; rather, one should fight to the best of his ability and be steadfast in it'' (hadeeth no. 1324, Book of Jihad in Riyadh Saleheen, by Imam Nawawi)''

[Lincoln]

As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.[Quran: 5:38]
Don’t you think this brutality is obsolete? Hey man… it is an obsolete law like many other brutal laws you see in Hammurabi codex or Torah. But your barbarian Muhammad added it to his basket and carried out this punishment in his lifetime on a woman who stole something from what Muhammad plundered from other people. I say this beforehand for you to not waste your fuel there is a context, or punishment is only applied for huge offences kinds of freaking excuses. Here goes your Sahih Bukhari:

Narrated 'Urwa bin Az-Zubair: A lady committed theft during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle in the Ghazwa of Al-Fath, ((i.e. Conquest of Mecca). Her folk went to Usama bin Zaid to intercede for her (with the Prophet). When Usama interceded for her with Allah's Apostle, the color of the face of Allah's Apostle changed and he said, "Do you intercede with me in a matter involving one of the legal punishments prescribed by Allah?" Usama said, "O Allah's Apostle! Ask Allah's Forgiveness for me." So in the afternoon, Allah's Apostle got up and addressed the people. He praised Allah as He deserved and then said, "Amma ba'du ! The nations prior to you were destroyed because if a noble amongst them stole, they used to excuse him, and if a poor person amongst them stole, they would apply (Allah's) Legal Punishment to him. By Him in Whose Hand Muhammad's soul is, if Fatima, the daughter of Muhammad stole, I would cut her hand." Then Allah's Apostle gave his order in the case of that woman and her hand was cut off. Afterwards her repentance proved sincere and she got married. 'Aisha said, "That lady used to visit me and I used to convey her demands to Allah's Apostle [Sahih Bukhari: Book: 59, Hadith: 597]

Tell us what relevance do you see for this punishment in our times? Can you give this up? Well, if you do, that means you are not obeying your god and his messenger. That’s it;

Very good Khalil as you have brought a verse from the Quran to state that the punishment is obsolete! First of all, let the readers know that here your negative assertion about punishment of theft. On a first glance , yes it seems to us that the punishment is quite a tough and brutal one. But lets not forget the implications of this kind of punishment. And another fact is that this laws are applied in an Islamic state run by Sharia. Let me remind you one thing that no other religion has so many aspects as has Islam. Lets now consider the case of theft again,-- if stealing is a profession of a person , and he doesn’t do it for suffering some sheer financial problem , then that thief should be punished..

But there is problem Khalil. When we talk about the punishment of a thief in a perfectly Islam ruling state, stealing is a great crime. Why? You would ask me that, woudnt you? In an Islamic state , the government would take care of its citizens and government will provide them with all the facilities. If they are poor, the government will help them out to overcome poverty. If you are poverty stricken, you would go to government and ask them to protect you and help you. An Islamic nation ideally bound to help its citizens. But please don’t compare the punishment in context of a country that is run by other means such as democracy, and autocracy, or something like that. Because if you do so, you create a confused situation of not getting the true understanding from a perfect point of view…

So, what we understand from the aforementioned analysis is that Islam when it rules a nation will provide the citizens with the basic needs. An Islamic government is bound to do that. So, then why would you steal? Why would you become a thief? Why would you then create anarchy in the society as long as government is that much willing to help you overcome your problems. Moreover, when a state is run by the impeccable laws , you know that you shouldn’t steal because you simply need not to steal.. Imagine a nation, where you can get help from the government whenever you face any problem, and government helps you out if you are financially poor.. Still, you steal? What should be the consequences? So, my friend, stealing in a society run by democracy, or any other system is different than stealing in a society perfectly run by Islam. In a democratic country, you might steal because you can have two square meal as you don’t have job, or you cant do anything.. Your government might too much corrupted to be a little more effective in solving your problem of poverty. And thus you can justify your reason of stealing. But in an Islamic country that is run by pure Islamic laws, what are your excuses? You are then stealing only for the sake of stealing!! Islam doesn’t tolerate this and therefore a terrifying consequence wait for them…

Now, let me come to the Hadith, you have quoted. My friend. Apart from the fact that this Ahadith deals with the punishment of theft, have you seen anything different? See, how much assertive the prophet was about the justice for all. The prophet there emphatically declared that in Islam , no one will be spared from the punishment irrespective of their honor and position in the society.. Every citizen will be dealt equally under the justice system. How wonderful that the prophet stated and implemented this 1400 years ago…

Oh I see.., how high is morality in Islam? Is it higher than the Mount Everest?
I have a thread in Quran section of this forum on “wife swapping in Islam”. It is based on a stupid verse of Quran and some hadiths. Your god’s law: a divorced wife can not be taken back by her previous husband until she gets remarried to another man and the new husband tastes her sweetness. I am not making stuffs up but it is what your god prescribes you and Muhammad explains of the god upstairs’ law. This link to it: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1375

Oww! I am aware of the verse of the Quran you have implied here. But still, did you see that the prophet never beat his wives. Thus it’s an example for Muslims. And we also know that you cant beat your wife whenever you want! Here again, you guys commit a generalizing fallacy saying that beating wives is an Islamic act.. About the remarry, this is a complex matter to deal with. But as you have stated this, why don’t you get the fact that you have three chances to waste before permanently divorcing your wives!

And another important fact here is that its clear that you didn’t get the Islamic rule in a perfect sense. Though I don’t give that remarry stuff that much of importance. But still as you have raised this you will stick to your understanding to show that this is too shallow. No offence , my friend.

Islam wants to make sure a perfect conjugal life and Islam doesn’t want families to be broken regularly. Who wants his wife to be tasted by another man? No one. So when Islam says that after using those three chances of solving the problem with your wife, if you again do it , I mean divorce you wife, you cant get her again.. Why? It is said that think before you do. If you divorce your wife being in a state of anger and rage, that divorce wont be taken seriously. But if you want to break the relationship forever, you can do it by divorcing her permanently. Don’t forget the three chances that are given before any permanent separation. Therefore, you see that Islam is very much flexible, if you commit the mistake once, Islam ignores it, twice Islam ignores it, thrice Islam again ignores it and again committing the same mistake, you are caught!! You have that hard line now to get her back!!! So, what Islam does best here is that it gives maximum importance on the relationship to be kept intact and therefore you have that law. ( Another fact, I would like to inform others that about remarry , there are different opinions among the scholars,)

Besides, is it because of the high morals you guys can not even explain what constitutes adultery in Islam? I had asked this question in our old forum too and the only answer I got from a Muslim is: “Adultery in Islam means having sex other than one’s four wives and concubines” (the number of concubines is not stipulated. It can make a thousand if you are rich enough to afford)

Adultery is illicit love affair. There is no space for concubines in Islam.

You have idea of Qiyaz but how does it help you here? I am talking of problems that are not necessarily recruited for Qiyaz. (Analogical deduction). Just like in the case of a petty theft. You have holy ordinance and your prophet’s sunna to cut hands of a woman who steels something that you as a Muslim Jihadist robbed from an infidel.

About the petty crimes you stated above , I have dealt with them already. And regarding the term " Analogical Deduction"— when we understand whats called Analogy and whats Deduction, we can find the beauty of Islam that provides solutions of many problems through this..

[Lincoln]

You can be a nice person in your heart dear friend; I am not much concerned of you being a threat to humanity. You might not call non-Muslims Kuffar or Infidels or you can be even lenient to call hardcore Kuffar as Muslims. That is not what I am concerned of. The problem is your book which uses the term kuffar, infidels, apes and swine, worst beasts.., I am concerned of the hate manual which you consider is divine.

You arent concerned with people like me, don’t forget I am a Muslim. Though I know that you will then inform me that you don’t have anything against Muslims. Sounds great!

What does the word Kuffar mean dear Khalil? And infidel,? Infidel means a non-believer. Whats wrong to term a non-believer, a non-believer.!! You don’t believe what I believe , and it makes you a non-believer. So, is it insulting to speak the truth. Do you think that infidel is an insulting word? What word you would like most in lieu of the word "Infidel". Regarding, apes and swine, My friend, I afraid to say that you have here again misquoted Quranic statement. Could you please show me the verse of the Glorious Quran, where it states that the non-believers are apes and swine?.. Please show us..

Then comes "the worst creature" part. God has created the whole world and all the human being. Now you believe this or don’t believe this doesn’t matter here because here I will deal with the fact that why the non-believers are not the best in the eyes of God. A believer believes in God and leads his life in the way God wants him to lead. It makes him to be loved by God. Now, a non-believer doesn’t believe in God and doesn’t lead his life in the way God wants him to lead. This it makes him to be far inferior in status… Now, you know that its all spiritual, isn’t it?.. It is. All the other beings except Human being don’t enjoy spirituality, so they get discounted. Therefore, spiritually a non-believer is worst as long as he sticks to his disbelief… Pure logical.. But it doesn’t mean you are degraded, what it states is that non-believers are in very poor condition spiritually which they can change if they turn themselves to become believer.

Why should I exactly? Did I ever argue against Muslims? I always asserted the problem is Islam which is the fruit of Quran. I do not want to go with the majority point of view. I would rather go with Quran which is the base

.

My dear friend, have you thought about your these comments that how much contradictory these statements are!!! Its Islam that makes us Muslim. If you argue against Islam , you are directly putting your arguments against Muslims though you would say that you are reluctant to argue against Muslims.. Subtract Islam from Muslims, they don’t remain Muslim…
And If you don’t go with the majority point of view, I wont blame you for anything but I would certainly say that you like those very few Muslims who choose to blow themselves up..


My reasoning is pure reasoning but yours again turns out to be argumentum ad populum. I am sorry to repeat this, because you are stuck on majority counts in Islam which in fact is not. There is a hadith in which Muhammad says “out of seventy two sects only one will be on the right path and all else will be in the wrong side”. Majority counts in a democracy but here when I am talking of the basics of Islam, what majority of Muslims today believes have not much pertinence as long as the basic the rotten basic remains. It would only be a matter of time this majority lining up with the now minority extremists. Ah… we see it in Pakistan as Taliban tightens their grip day by day and their popularity among the majority of peaceful Muslims grows day by day.

Problem is Quran. Your prophet’s Sunnah. If you can not get rid off these both, no apologetics are going to work.[/quote]

I would not choose the path of accusation and counter accusations that would lead nowhere. The fact that you have informed us here that you don’t take the very few muslims as a specimen to study Islam completely disregarding the others. Fair enough. But why would you do so? As far as I have seen you performing on this board, its clear that you want to talk about Jihad leaving aside other facts of Islam.. Previously, I have stated about the basic duties of Muslims in their life that are comprised of Salahs, and fasting etc. It’s also encouraging that you don’t take the practicing Muslims as a threat , here practicing means Muslims who practice five times prayer in a day, who fast and pays zakahs etc.. By now, its evident that you think that the rotten basic is Jihad. But you seem to forget that Jihad isn’t a fard-e-Ain for Muslim until situation become worse. Jihad isn’t as mandatory as praying Salah. So, why would you give too much emphasis on Jihad. You were Muslim as you have informed everyone that you are an ex-Muslim. Then how on earth, you forget that its not fard-e-ain for Muslims to take part in Jihad! Don’t take any offence , my friend.

When everyone being Muslim, Muslim scholars are informing you that the quoting of Quran by some misguided ones are irrelevant to the overall teaching of Islam, still you avoid them with the lame accusation that these Muslims and these Muslims scholars all are impertinent! I take you for granted that you are a learned person who think on his own, but my friend, its never good to allowing the ego to come forward to challenge things which are very much different from what you assume. You have numerous examples of Muslims talking with you and letting you know about their idea of what they believe in. The scholars are here also to explain. But still you stick to position that Islam means only Jihad!!..

I would quote the Hadith againfrom the great prophet here to show all that what prophet said about fighing.:-
Abdullah bin Abu Aufa (May Allah be pleased with them) reported: On one occasion the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) was confronting the enemy. He waited until the sun had declined. Then he stood up to address the people and said, "O people! Do not wish for an encounter with the enemy. Pray to Allah to grant you safety; (but) when you encounter them, show patience, and know that Jannah is under the shades of the swords.''
[Narrated by Al-Bukhari and Muslim].

Imam Nawawi (one of the greatest hadeeth scholar and Islamic jurist of his time states '' The desire for war is prohibited, but when war becomes inevitable, one should not show his back to the enemy; rather, one should fight to the best of his ability and be steadfast in it'' (hadeeth no. 1324, Book of Jihad in Riyadh Saleheen, by Imam Nawawi)

[Lincoln]

Belief in the Day of Judgment is one of the pillars of your faith, yet you would preach The Hour does not have much relevance in your faith..!!!

Look my friend, believing in the day of judgment doesn’t mean waiting for anything miracle to happen in this world.. And how you implied that!

And you are either lying or misinformed Muslims are not waiting for any miracles connected to The Hour. You are; because we see it in Sahih Bukhari as stones and trees betraying Jews at The Hour. Or The Hour will not happen until you Muslims fight Jews and will annihilate them with the help of talking stones and trees. If this is not a miracle, I am afraid I need to find another definition and explanation of miracle.

These are indeed extraordinary.. But the argument here isn’t about happening the miracle. But the point here is that Muslims are waiting for some miracles or not.. The hour is the ultimate state of the world and it’s must fact that would happen as far as we Muslim believe. And there would be some signs before the hour that would confirm the imminence of the hour. Muslims arent waiting for the hour to come quickly because its not pleasing to anyone….

And my friend, I would appreciate if you don’t mix the phrase "Wating for some miracle" with the word "Miracle".. very much two different matter. The mixing these two has allowed you to accuse me of either lying to misinformed. If you didn’t do that , you would not accuse me..And an erudite like you grasps this pretty quickly , thus I wont make any bigger..

Yup, you might show me in one verse Allah is just. Of course if Allah has to be a moral agent, he should be just too but when the same Allah says in the same Quran he has created some from mankind and djinns destined to hell; I am afraid this claim of his being Just is a cruel hoax. Allah is Rahman or Raoof as he mentioned in Quran. That means he is just to all regardless of their beliefs in this world. But in hereafter, he is Raheem means merciful to only those who kept in line to him and gave him the due worship and reverence.

First of all, here I thank you as you have agreed with the fact that in Quran , its emphatically stated that Allah is just for everyone regardless of their faith.. If you work harder than me, you will get the success and your being a non-Muslim wont create any obstacles for you because Allah is Just.. Now, about the fact of the creation of some human and djinns for hell. Could you please refer me the verse to be more precise.

And do not repeat Muslims are not waiting for any miracle. If you do not, that means you still have a sound psychological make up but there are many miracles to happen in the world. Gog and Magog, Dajjal, Jesus’ second round in earth and after all talking stones and trees and the total annihilation of Jews… all these are miracles mentioned in Quran and Sahih Ahadith. If you do not believe in them, I am doubtful of you being a true Muslim though you claim to be one. Hey… I already said it is hard or has become extremely difficult to know which is which in the case of Muslims as 1.5 Billion or so Muslims seem to have equal number of versions of Islam. You can be someone unique and I don’t rule out this possibility too.

The Miracles again. I have already in above told you whats the basic difference between "waiting for Miracle" and "The Miracles". If you read Christian Bible, you will find that there are also the story of God-magog, the hour , so on. If you read Jewish Tankh, you will find these , the coming of the hour and the coming of the Messiah etc… Why I am referring these here? Do you know the reason?.. I guess, you know. These things are in their script and that doesn’t mean they are waiting these to happen. Ask an average Christian, or a Jew for that fact.. Similarly, we Muslim believe these will happen before the hour and those extra-ordinary things will become reality.. But the fact is that, do we wait eagerly for that time?... Does this mean we are waiting for any miracle to save us from the sufferings?... The obvious answer is no. But unfortunately , you interpret this as Muslims waiting for some miracles". Do you see how have you emphasized the word "Muslims" though we know that almost all the religions have the same kind story in their scripts. Even the Hindus are waiting for Kalki Avatar to save them.. Muslims arent waiting for Kalki Avatar. Jews are waiting for that Messiah! Muslims will eagerly wait for Messiah, when we would see Dajjal oppressing everyone. But now, what relevance those have to the general faith and the day to day activities of a Muslim. There is no pertinence. Still when you emphatically declare that Muslims are waiting for some miracle, you do this with the intention to depict the Muslim mindset as backward and superstitious. But my friend, you that intention will not see the light when we see the truth. Muslims arent special in talking about the end of the time and the other actions that to be happened in future. Therefore, the way said Muslims are waiting for some God-damn miracle , isn’t right.. We arent waiting for those. I believe you do understand the term "Waiting", I bet you do.

I have seen that you have been repeating the sentence that there numerous sects of Muslims. You doubt that the number of sects would equal to the number of Muslims. Before putting this ridicule on the show, you should have been much more careful in identifying whats called version. If there are minor differences between two difference group of Muslims, this will not create two different version. But it seems that you feel that if there is any subtle difference, this will cause new version. What pathetic, my friend!! To tell you truth, There is only one version of Islam though seemingly it might be confusing to you! Take the five pillars of Islam, and tell me which version denies this.. If there are differences in deciding anything about a Nafal(optional) prayer between two groups, it doesn’t create division in terms of general understanding of Islam. So, my friend, your fantasizing becomes ridiculous when you try to say that there are numerous versions. Yes! There are different in opinions about some facts that arent very important to general Islam. Therefore, the boundary of version doesn’t exist when we talk about Islam and its roots… I do wonder that why do you that much worried about versions of Islam.. Every Muslim is bound to believe in the Glorious Quran and there are common understanding of faith among all the Muslims. You know these! The common understanding is the Islam, and the rest are minute differences as far as faith in general in concerned. You aren't concerned with those minute differences, are you? Those minute differences have no importance the fort of faith. Only basic facts bears great importance to our faith. So, your apprehension about the versions of Islam is meaningless as long as you want to deal with Islam and its teachings..

I know whats in your repository to refute my claim. You will surely try to allude the Shia and Sunnis and few other different sects of Islam. But dont forget that all the sects are bound to believe in Quran and the basic teachings of Islam are same and there are no differences. It makes Islam, unbroken despite having different opinions.

I lost the flow of this debate, yet I think you were boasting Quran’s unadulterated status and preservation as a miracle of some kind. Quran survived like many other books survived in history. But why do you Muslim boast it is a glorious survival?

Its happiness and pure joy to belong to such a faith , that hasn’t got adulterated as far as the basic is concerned that is the Glorious Quran.



Take Care.

[Lincoln]

Though Khalil hasnt finished his post, I had not option but to write to address the points he raised here. I hope that everyone will be open enough to consider this..


With regards.

[KhaliL]

Though Khalil hasnt finished his post, I had not option but to write to address the points he raised here. I hope that everyone will be open enough to consider this..


With regards.

What makes you come up with the above before I finish? Have you no patience to wait for me to finish my rebuttal? Do you think being a Muslim makes you so superior that you can ignore my request without even consulting me?

Excuse me Muslim... You are being pathetic..., if you don't know of how to carry on a discussion, it would have been better for you to NOT to engage with me in the first place. When are you MUSLIM going to learn the manners?

Now what do you expect me to do? I am not supposed to answer your gibberish at all especially when you showed you are very good in Taqiyya. For readers' information: Taqiyya has many forms and interrupting a discussion is one of them.

This man wants to interrupt the flow of this debate so that he can escape. NO MUSLIM, I am not going to let you escape. Though you don't deserve a response to your nauseating preaching, I will answer you word by word. If you do not have patience, you can get lost. My target is readers who are reading this with much enthusiasm.

Readers: be patient please; I will soon come up with my refutation. I.e. within a couple of days.

KF

[KhaliL]

Islam has been in the center of debate for many years.

So..?

Being a Muslim, I always think about the reason behind this and when I encounter people who want to demolish Islam , I find them complaining that Islam is imperialistic and Islam wants to subjugate the whole world.

We want to demolish Islam because it is not a religion but a cult. We complain Islam is imperialistic and Islam wants to subjugate the world because Islam is imperialistic and Islam does want to subjugate the world.

They talk about many things such as Dhimmi right, laws of an Islamic State, hatred, and most importantly Jihad.

Correction: your hate manual speaks about Jihad, and establishing Allah’s rule over this planet.

Someone would ask about right hand possessions,

Someone means your Allah? It is your Allah talking about right hand possessions in his hate manual.

some other would ask about the penalty of apostates, so on. With this process , whats happening that many people are getting too much narrow minded to get the original message of Islam.

We are getting narrow minded because we see the original message of Islam in that seventh century hate manual. Do you have a Islam that does not connect to Quran?

Islam is the only force that can unite the humankind under one umbrella.

Oh really; where have you been all these times…?
Muslim, tell this to those killing each other in your Islamic hellholes. Or do you have guts to show a moment in the history of your Islam that it uniting even Muslims? One moment please;

Preach not you Muslim, it is nauseating;

Its only Islam that has this unique ability to create the universal brother-hood with its unique message.

What the is wrong with you man? Your seventh century barbarian could not devise a system in which his grandsons will be safe from the hands of Muslims. Then what the hell is this about?

Universal brotherhood..? Preach this to your brothers in Karachi and Somalia who are killing each other on a daily basis.

Those the non-muslim die hard FFIers who are reading this might think what crap I am writing here.

So you know you are spewing sh!t but can not help it. Pathetic;

To be frank, guys what I am writing here is very much truth.

NO. it is crap, you got it above;

Let us see the whole world from a religious view point. There are Christians, Jews, Hindus , the followers of three great religions..and of course Muslims.. Islamic ideology is the common ideology of the world religions.

Again, preach not. We need substance.

Islam isn’t a new religion with new teachings that doesn’t approve any of the previous teachings.

How?

Islam accepts Jesus(pbuh) as one of the mightiest messenger sent by the Almighty God. The basic difference between Muslims and Christian is that Christian think Jesus is God, we Muslims say that he is a messenger of God.

Darn…, you said Islam approves previous teachings. Christians believe Jesus is god according to their teachings. Why don’t you approve it then?

We the Muslims and Christians can unite if we can solve this problem.

Again how?

Now, lets think about Jews.. Islam again accept Moses(pbuh) another mightier messenger of Almighty God and Islam in deed a pure monotheistic religion. So, we the jews and Muslims can unite if few problems can be solved.

How are you going to solve the problem as long as you believe in a seventh century hate manual which says Jews have been accursed and your god has put animosity in between them till the day of judgment?

Now, lets turn to Hinduism. We ask Hindus to read Vedas, their holiest book. To read that Almighty God is one ( Ekam ekvadetaim), and He doesn’t have any image! How wonderful that it perfectly matches with Islam…

Did you ever read a few lines of a Veda? It would have been better before coming up with all these nonsense.

Islam gives Maximum importance on believing in One Almighty God.
1. You will find this in Bible

You mean the corrupted Bible?

2. You will find this in Jewish tankh

You mean the corrupted Jewish Tanakh?

3. You will find this in Vedas

Are Vedas too from your god? Where did he mention it in his hate manual?

4. You will find this is Zoroastrianism

Is Zend Avesta divine? Where did it’s been mentioned in your hate manual?

But its Islam that gives maximum effort on that. (Believing One Almighty God) We say it Tawhid( The unity of God)

So what?

Furthermore, Islam says that Almighty God sent more than two hundred thousand messengers and Muhammad(pbuh) is the last one of them.. Therefore, the window is open. Any teaching that talks about One Almighty God and the date of that teaching System more than 1500 years old, we Muslims become jubilant because we believe that Almighty God has sent thousands of messengers.

Are you nuts? What makes you jubilant because your cult is 1500 years old?

And every messenger preached the same message that is Tawhid, the unity of God. So, when we read Vedas talking about Imageless Almighty God, we become happy.

Your god is not imageless. Read your hate manual; he is seated on a throne that is situated somewhere in heavens. To seat on throne, your Allah should necessarily have a bum. Or to be precise, if Allah has an Arsh, he must have an arse too.

When we see that in Zoroastrianism, there is One Almighty God, we know that the message is same.

Did you ever in your life read a word of Gathas? Do you have any understanding of Zoroastrian dualism?
Glad you admitted it in advance that you are only spewing crap.

Now is the for all of us to get united under the teachings of Almighty God. And we know that there hasn’t been any alteration in the Glorious Quran during the last 1400 years but we arent so sure about other scriptures that makes Quranic Message more appealing for its authenticity..

You were boasting of the monotheistic concept that is found in Tanakh, Bible, Vedas, Zend Avesta, but now you are not sure of the purity of these texts? How can impure texts contain pure message?

Besides, what goddamn reasons you have to state your Quran is unadulterated? What about the hadith below?

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: 'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of rajam, and so did we after him." [Sahih Bukhari: Book: 82, Hadith: 816]

Can you show me the verses of Rajam in today’s Quran? This is a challenge. Meet this and boast about an unadulterated hate manual.

Spoiler! :

No. First of all, Zakah doesn’t mean giving fish as you implied by alluding the fish of that Chinese dictum!
Giving Zakah has much wider impact on the society as whole to make the society get rid of poverty. Every wealthy man has to pay Zakah to the poor and It has been stated that the zakah portion of the wealth of a man belongs to the poor. Now, how to pay Zakah! I see that on this part you have a different understanding from what we Muslims generally believe. Zakah can be paid to a multitude of people but in doing so the amount paid mightn’t be sufficient enough for them to start a new life. Therefore, the perfect way of paying Zakah is to pay big amount to a less number of people on order that they can get rid of poverty. And then in the next year, giving to another group of poverty stricken people with sufficient amount of money so that they can also get rid of poverty with that paid Zakah. In this way, gradually we can eradicate poverty. This is the aim of Zakah. It should be paid in a way that would make it more efficient in solving the problem of poverty. Its not like I am paying a person hundred bucks from my 15 thousand dollars of zakahs, because with that $100 , that poor person mightn’t be able to do anything. So, the best is to divide my 15 thousand to two poor person and that would make them able to withstand poverty. Now, if your personal choice is "paying zakah with small amount but to a multitude of people" , its your own choice that doesn’t have that much of effect on the poor.

You then cant argue that your way of paying zakah is the way of paying Zakah! But unfornately , in your post you have used the metaphor of fish which is a specimen of your own judgment , not a paradigm of Islamic way of paying Zakah. And like you, I also don’t like that feeding fish once!

You were not asked to preach about Zakat. That is why I put a spoiler in your yucking preach.
I can very well argue the crappy system of Zakat is meant to create parasites because I see living proofs in front of my eyes. I am living under Sharia; in case you don’t know; I am seeing it in front of my eyes how Zakat system is creating idle wasted human beings in this Islamic hellhole.

"We against them" isn’t the perfect clause to state the Quranic message. But indeed there are two groups , first the Believers and second the non-believers. They arent same. If I say, I am American and you are non-American, and therefore we have different ambition and different way to act in geo-politics, this doesn’t prove that I am alienating you from but it gives a proper identity of what you are and what I am.

If you say I am not an American so I don’t have right to live if I don’t become an American, that means We against Them. It is what we see in Quran. Your rhetoric is not going to work but argue thumbing your hate manual.

"Jihad being on top of everything"---- -- Does a Muslim need to do Jihad all the day or he has to pray five times in a day? You definitely know about that , I bet. But still, you give more importance on the topic because that topic will help to defame Islam and Muslims.

Five times prayer is not all that is Islam. You tried to defend your cult saying it is all about showing your bum up five times a day. NO. There is armed Jihad. Quran’s ultimate message is violence. Care to deal with it?

There are indeed do's and don’t do's! But the fact is that in every ideology there are do'sand don’t do's. But what makes a person Muslim, is important. What makes a person a perfect Muslim is important.

To be a Muslim, you should have faith. There are pillars for your faith, and believing in a seventh century hate manual is one of them. Can you deny it? It is the hate manual that makes all a mess for Islam.

Islam obviously means more. Its so much profound but the superficial handling of it can make it look differently which the haters may like. I will emphasize on the imperatives and the optional doesn’t have that much significance as long as they are optional. Its imperative for Muslims to pray five times a day, Its obligatory for Muslims to fast in the month of Ramadan, its prerequisite of every wealthy Muslims to pay Zakah. Whosoever follows these imperatives perfectly , they are perfectly true Muslims. Why do you argue with these fact and try to emphasize things that arent imperative to Muslims.. You definitely know whats called "Fard-e- A'in"..

I answered this above. You have to have faith at first and then only your means of bumming up and starving or whatever rubbish things you do as worship going to be accepted by your god. IMAN if you don’t know it yet. Believing in a seventh century hate manual is one of the pillars of IMAN. Got it?

"Fooling out" My friend, it seems that this particular phrase is a favorite one of you! As you have been asking this again and again. Let me be frank, Khalil, what I am writing here is genuinely what we Muslims believe (The majority-90%), therefore, why the lame accusation you put forward.. When you are indulged in negative aspects too much and when you think only about flaws—the truth might seem alien!

I am not fond of any phrase in English and don’t worry about me. You better take care of what is prescribed in your hate manual.

What is Sharia? Would you please explain to us and let us see whether Islam has any other side too than those great Basics you mentioned.
Islam can not be in terms with many of the modern concepts like democracy, secular humanism because these concepts are not approved by your seventh century hate manual. It has its own laws of governing people. In above you are trying to constrain your religion in your personal life only which is considered as blasphemous even by nineteenth century scholars like Maududi and Syed Qutub. You as a Muslim can not conciliate with Taghooti government but it is your duty to strive for an Islamic government wherever you are. If you are in a weak position (as you are in now I doubt) Quran commands you to cleverly hide your vicious motives and play Taqiyya until you gain the upper-hand.

Its hate manual because you see this as hate manual.. Its wonderful because I see it wonderful. It definitely has laws and it has context of applying the laws. What I tried in my aforementioned writing is to show what a Muslim has to do in his daily life and what are the fundamentals of being a Muslim. But unfortunately, you have taken that too far where you reach the place of blasphemy. I am very much aware of my position and I know that no generalization fallacy of yours will do anything here. As long as the Taghoti government doesn’t do anything against us, why can we conciliate with them! Every Muslims first duty is transform himself into a good Muslim, by praying to God and by doing good deeds.

Answer me properly and PREACH NOT. I added my quote too with the above because you are again trying to fool out people here. They can see what you do exactly.

First of all, I don’t agree with you that Qur'an sanctions taqiyya..

Quran does; if you do not agree your problem is not with me but with your Quran. Go read my post in old forum. Link here: http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=58352" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am concerned of this forum’s bandwidth so only a link. If you do not go through it, readers will; and that is my aim. I know you are a lost case.

"Telling lies is the mother of all sins"—don’t you know about this teaching of Islam while you were Muslims!? lets be very precise. According to Islam, you cant have pork, meaning you cant eat pork. But if you are in a place that there is no food except pork and you will die if you don’t eat, Pork becomes Halal in that context. Now, does this mean that Islam allows Muslims to eat pork? If you answer that yes! Islam does. And then if you write a big article on how pork becomes Halal, with the heading that Pork is Halal for Muslims, it wont make pork halal rather it would make yourself a deceit which you mightn’t like at all.. Therefore, we all should refrain from generalizing a statement. If your life is at stake , and one lie can save you, Islam will sanction that. But this doesn’t mean Islam generally allows telling lies.

This is not the Taqiyya that your Muhammad practiced in his life. He allowed his thugs to lie to deceive a man and kill him. It is the way Taqiyya implemented by your Muhammad. Not the way you babble above.

Overt explanation you want! A non-believer will be protected from any harm and the Islamic state will do it. To gain that specialty , they would have to pay tax, that is jiziya!

It is not what your hate manual says. It says overtly: Until they pay jizya in HUMILIATION.
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay Jizya in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of humiliation. [Quran 009:029]

Who are you trying to fool out?

Jizya is meant to humiliate non-Muslims. It is what your scholars say. Again, my thread in old forum: http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... 45#1146545" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Doesn’t matter where you live as a citizen in this modern world, you will have to pay a certain proportion of your income to the Government and its obligatory, in return the Govt will provide your necessary services. Islam does pretty much same with the non-Muslims as the Muslim government protects them.. And the punishment of dating and adultery won't be inflicted suddenly, it will be notified to everyone, the specific punishment of specific crimes, then the people who commits crimes will be sentenced. First of all, Islam doesn’t recognize adultery as petty crimes, and for dating they would be reprimanded… The most important thing you know that Islam doesn’t acknowledge any illicit love affairs and thus a proper action will be taken in order that the development of illicit love affairs are obstructed in the beginning.

Oh chweech… what is licit about having sex with right hand possessions? What do these guys doing?

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri said:
The Apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, send down the Qur'anic verse: "And all married women are forbidden unto you save those whom your right hand possess."[Surah 4:24] [..Sunan Abu Dawud, Book V, Chapter 711, Number 2150]

Can you Muslim please enlighten us what does it mean illicit affairs in Islam?

Go preach your Islam to your Arab masters in Sordid Arabia who rape and molest Indian, Indonesian house maids. Their inspiration is the hadith above and verses of that goddamn hate manual.

Great! First of all, I thank you for identifying the three stages though its your own hard work that has led you to find this. I would not cling to anything, but I would cling to you point to view to show that what Islam indeed offers us.
What these three stages mean to you Khalil. The three stages mean three different context, don’t they?.

Three stages have different contexts, but the final message of Quran is what counts.

And we can also find the development of each context and why in three different times , three different messages were given. Its worth more deep reasoning than some cursory understanding..
Stage one:- If the scenario of today's world matches with the context of the stage one, there is no fighting! A Muslim shouldn’t even think to fight.

There is a verse in Quran “do not approach prayers while you are drunk”. It was stage one. In the final stage we see Quran prohibits alcohol altogether regardless of time.
Which message are you going to accept?
Will you drink because it was only forbidden while praying during the first stage?

Final message of Quran is what counts. And it is incitement to fight offensive wars.

If we read The Glorious Quran and the history of Islam, we will see that every action had a development that had led the action to be implemented. The developments are very important. No one can deny this thing.

What was the sucking reason your Muhammad marching to Tabuk while it was spring time in Arabia and even his staunchest followers not following him in that battle? What was the reason for earlier Muslim conquests of nations after nations? You can not deny this thing because your history is against your apologetics. The thread from where you have been redirected to here deals with the early Muslim conquests. There was no threat to Arabia at that time from any outside forces because that was a forgotten piece of land. Still your rightly guided Caliphs went on offensive and invaded nations after nations subdued the infidels either to convert to Islam or to pay Jizya.

They were inspired from the final message of Quran. Don’t talk nonsense.

Moreover, The Quranic verses have its proper context of when to implement a particular verse and when not to...

‘’ Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them’’ (22:39)

''Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors'' (2:190)

If we consider all the verses in the Quran that deal with battle, we will get a perfect scenario of the message of the Glorious Quran. As you were Muslims, you might know one thing about Quran that it answers the questions that may arise in your mind after reading a particular verse. Which means the answer lies in the Quran. If you read 9:29, you see that Muslims are asked to fight with whom those don’t believe in Allah.. But why the permission of fight given? Read the verse no 22:39. Furthermore, The Glorious Quran is very much specific in identifying the enemies. It said clearly that fight those who fight you.(2:190). Finally, I would say that unfortunately, you are too biased to see the real message of the Quran and this has led you to believe that it sanctions attacking non-Muslims without any reason whatsoever. But the truth doesn’t comply with your understanding…

Do not talk sh!t you Muslim. Your Quran’s ultimate message is to fight those who do not believe in Allah and his apostle. NOT to fight those who fight you. You are clinging to abrogated verses as any sucking apologist hypocrite does. All peaceful verses of Quran, all treaties with non-Muslims have been abrogated by the verse of sword in Quran. And the verse of sword is “When the sacred months are past, kill the Mushrikoon wherever you find them”. It is Quran Surah 9:5. When the verse of sword is there in your seventh century hate manual, no sucking Muslim acrobatics is going to work. I can show you from your authentic Quran scholars, verse 9:5 abrogates all peaceful verses in Quran.

''And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture'' (2:78)

What sucking relevance this verse has in here? Can you quote it in context and say what does it mean?

Abdullah bin Abu Aufa (May Allah be pleased with them) reported: On one occasion the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) was confronting the enemy. He waited until the sun had declined. Then he stood up to address the people and said, "O people! Do not wish for an encounter with the enemy. Pray to Allah to grant you safety; (but) when you encounter them, show patience, and know that Jannah is under the shades of the swords.''[Narrated by Al-Bukhari and Muslim].

LOL… I know Muslim will shoot on his foot and it is only a matter of time. Here even in the hadith which you bring in your defence, we read paradise is under the shade of swords. Is it your peaceful message? What peace are you Muslims going to offer to the world when your paradise is under the shade of swords?

How many hadiths you want me to quote Muhammad even permitting to endanger innocent women and kids? How many hadiths would do?

Imam Nawawi (one of the greatest hadeeth scholar and Islamic jurist of his time states '' The desire for war is prohibited, but when war becomes inevitable, one should not show his back to the enemy; rather, one should fight to the best of his ability and be steadfast in it'' (hadeeth no. 1324, Book of Jihad in Riyadh Saleheen, by Imam Nawawi)''

Imam Nawawi is one of the Jurists not the greatest. The greatest jurists are four in Sunni version of Islam. Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Malik, Imam Shafi and Hanbal. All are unanimously stated Jihad is the collective obligation of Muslims. See it below:

With respect to the hukm of this activity (Jihad), the jurists agreed unanimously that it is a collective and not a universal obligation. The majority of the jurists adopted this view because of the words of the exalted “Warfare is ordained for you thought you dislike it” (Quran 2:216). Jihad is obligatory on men, who are free, have attained puberty, who find their means for going to war, are of sound health and are neither ill nor suffer from a chronic disease. [Ibn Rushd/Bidayat Al-Mujtahid. The book of Jihad, chapter 1.1]

Who are you trying to fool out?

To be continued..........

[KhaliL]

Very good Khalil as you have brought a verse from the Quran to state that the punishment is obsolete! First of all, let the readers know that here your negative assertion about punishment of theft. On a first glance , yes it seems to us that the punishment is quite a tough and brutal one. But lets not forget the implications of this kind of punishment. And another fact is that this laws are applied in an Islamic state run by Sharia. Let me remind you one thing that no other religion has so many aspects as has Islam. Lets now consider the case of theft again,-- if stealing is a profession of a person , and he doesn’t do it for suffering some sheer financial problem , then that thief should be punished..

But there is problem Khalil. When we talk about the punishment of a thief in a perfectly Islam ruling state, stealing is a great crime. Why? You would ask me that, woudnt you? In an Islamic state , the government would take care of its citizens and government will provide them with all the facilities. If they are poor, the government will help them out to overcome poverty. If you are poverty stricken, you would go to government and ask them to protect you and help you. An Islamic nation ideally bound to help its citizens. But please don’t compare the punishment in context of a country that is run by other means such as democracy, and autocracy, or something like that. Because if you do so, you create a confused situation of not getting the true understanding from a perfect point of view…

Read the hadith again and do not spew nonsense. I quoted the hadith because I foreseen your blah blah blahs about the sucking obsolete punishment for theft your hate manual prescribes. I quote the hadith once again and tell us what was this woman doing? Was she a professional thief? All that woman did was stole something from what your barbarian prophet plundered:

Narrated 'Urwa bin Az-Zubair: A lady committed theft during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle in the Ghazwa of Al-Fath, ((i.e. Conquest of Mecca). Her folk went to Usama bin Zaid to intercede for her (with the Prophet). When Usama interceded for her with Allah's Apostle, the color of the face of Allah's Apostle changed and he said, "Do you intercede with me in a matter involving one of the legal punishments prescribed by Allah?" Usama said, "O Allah's Apostle! Ask Allah's Forgiveness for me." So in the afternoon, Allah's Apostle got up and addressed the people. He praised Allah as He deserved and then said, "Amma ba'du ! The nations prior to you were destroyed because if a noble amongst them stole, they used to excuse him, and if a poor person amongst them stole, they would apply (Allah's) Legal Punishment to him. By Him in Whose Hand Muhammad's soul is, if Fatima, the daughter of Muhammad stole, I would cut her hand." Then Allah's Apostle gave his order in the case of that woman and her hand was cut off. Afterwards her repentance proved sincere and she got married. 'Aisha said, "That lady used to visit me and I used to convey her demands to Allah's Apostle [Sahih Bukhari: Book: 59, Hadith: 597]

Now, let me come to the Hadith, you have quoted. My friend. Apart from the fact that this Ahadith deals with the punishment of theft, have you seen anything different? See, how much assertive the prophet was about the justice for all. The prophet there emphatically declared that in Islam , no one will be spared from the punishment irrespective of their honor and position in the society.. Every citizen will be dealt equally under the justice system. How wonderful that the prophet stated and implemented this 1400 years ago…

The woman stole from something that your barbarian prophet plundered from others. The woman stole from what your barbarian prophet plundered from others. The woman stole from war booties.

What did your barbarian earned from cutting the hands of the woman? His child bride testifies the woman’s repentance was sincere but could your barbarian prophet give back her amputated hands? Why do you Muslim defend a goddamn barbaric act of a seventh century barbarian?

You seem to have a comprehension problem. Should I repeat the above again? I feel generous today.

Oww! I am aware of the verse of the Quran you have implied here. But still, did you see that the prophet never beat his wives.

Phew… your barbarian prophet beat Aisha on her chest. Don’t lie you Muslim taqiyya tactician.

Thus it’s an example for Muslims. And we also know that you cant beat your wife whenever you want! Here again, you guys commit a generalizing fallacy saying that beating wives is an Islamic act..

Have you no shame Muslim to defend an act like beating wives? What the hell is that Islam does to human brains?

Yuckit…,

About the remarry, this is a complex matter to deal with. But as you have stated this, why don’t you get the fact that you have three chances to waste before permanently divorcing your wives!
And another important fact here is that its clear that you didn’t get the Islamic rule in a perfect sense. Though I don’t give that remarry stuff that much of importance. But still as you have raised this you will stick to your understanding to show that this is too shallow. No offence , my friend.

Spoiler! :

Islam wants to make sure a perfect conjugal life and Islam doesn’t want families to be broken regularly.Who wants his wife to be tasted by another man? No one. So when Islam says that after using those three chances of solving the problem with your wife, if you again do it , I mean divorce you wife, you cant get her again.. Why? It is said that think before you do. If you divorce your wife being in a state of anger and rage, that divorce wont be taken seriously. But if you want to break the relationship forever, you can do it by divorcing her permanently. Don’t forget the three chances that are given before any permanent separation. Therefore, you see that Islam is very much flexible, if you commit the mistake once, Islam ignores it, twice Islam ignores it, thrice Islam again ignores it and again committing the same mistake, you are caught!! You have that hard line now to get her back!!! So, what Islam does best here is that it gives maximum importance on the relationship to be kept intact and therefore you have that law. ( Another fact, I would like to inform others that about remarry , there are different opinions among the scholars,)

Answer me why your god the pimp upstairs should insist a divorced wife should marry a stranger and the stranger should taste her sweetness if husband wants to take her back. Answer me why? Is it what god the most high command? Is this your god? Pathetic;

No preaching is going to work. You have to answer properly what goddamn logic is behind it. Error can happen from human side and we all are prone to it. But if such an error occurs from husband’s part, why should he let his former wife to marry to a stranger and the stranger taste her sweetness?

Is this your god who is high and exalted? Is this your holy book? No wonder why Islam breeds such perverted human beings like Osama Bin Laden. His father had more than 40 children in four (or how many wives?) Allah knows best…!!

Allah knows best; he knew a nine year old Aisha is best for Muhammad. He also knew Zainab is best for Muhammad and not for Zaid his son-in-law. That is why he was keen to send down verses to help his barbarian prophet.

Yuckit, yuckit yuckit...

Adultery is illicit love affair. There is no space for concubines in Islam.

Then who was Maria to Muhammad? Answer you liar;

[KhaliL]

You arent concerned with people like me, don’t forget I am a Muslim. Though I know that you will then inform me that you don’t have anything against Muslims. Sounds great!

I don’t have any sucking affair with Muslims but I am against the hate ideology which prompts you to lie between your teeth. And yes, I don’t give a hoot to people like you who will shamelessly lie to defend a seventh century cult.

What does the word Kuffar mean dear Khalil? And infidel,? Infidel means a non-believer. Whats wrong to term a non-believer, a non-believer.!! You don’t believe what I believe , and it makes you a non-believer. So, is it insulting to speak the truth. Do you think that infidel is an insulting word? What word you would like most in lieu of the word "Infidel".

Kuffar are worst kinds of beasts in Quran. That is how it becomes insulting. Do you get it?

Regarding, apes and swine, My friend, I afraid to say that you have here again misquoted Quranic statement. Could you please show me the verse of the Glorious Quran, where it states that the non-believers are apes and swine?.. Please show us..

I did not quote any Quran in my post then how do you think I can misquote? And what do you say of the Jews who broke Sabbath? Your god turned them into apes and swine. That is in Quran. Should I want to show it? Check Quran 5:60;

Then comes "the worst creature" part. God has created the whole world and all the human being. Now you believe this or don’t believe this doesn’t matter here because here I will deal with the fact that why the non-believers are not the best in the eyes of God. A believer believes in God and leads his life in the way God wants him to lead. It makes him to be loved by God. Now, a non-believer doesn’t believe in God and doesn’t lead his life in the way God wants him to lead. This it makes him to be far inferior in status…

Mind boggling …, now I understand how dangerous a poison your cult is. Even in my Muslim days, I was not thinking in this way. And when I was told to believe in the same as what you wrote above, I screwed up your Islam and left it forever.

But you Muslim are still thinking a god upstairs who created the whole universe and things in it is such a narcissist to consider some of his creations as worst beasts just because they do not bum up to him…, pathetic is not your Allah but you Muslims who believe in this nutcase.

My dear friend, have you thought about your these comments that how much contradictory these statements are!!! Its Islam that makes us Muslim.

Don’t worry of me. I know what I am talking about. There are Muslims only for names and I do not hate them at all. But I do hate Muslims like you who know what Islam means and still defend and doling out all lies in stock to defend it. Screw up;

I would not choose the path of accusation and counter accusations that would lead nowhere. The fact that you have informed us here that you don’t take the very few muslims as a specimen to study Islam completely disregarding the others.

NO. I choose you too now because you proved a true Muslim now with your Taqiyya. No more or no less.

Fair enough. But why would you do so? As far as I have seen you performing on this board, its clear that you want to talk about Jihad leaving aside other facts of Islam..

It is after Jihad Islam becomes established. I will talk about Jihad which is a threat to me. And your problems with it?

Previously, I have stated about the basic duties of Muslims in their life that are comprised of Salahs, and fasting etc. It’s also encouraging that you don’t take the practicing Muslims as a threat , here practicing means Muslims who practice five times prayer in a day, who fast and pays zakahs etc.. By now, its evident that you think that the rotten basic is Jihad. But you seem to forget that Jihad isn’t a fard-e-Ain for Muslim until situation become worse. Jihad isn’t as mandatory as praying Salah. So, why would you give too much emphasis on Jihad. You were Muslim as you have informed everyone that you are an ex-Muslim. Then how on earth, you forget that its not fard-e-ain for Muslims to take part in Jihad! Don’t take any offence , my friend.

Answered already and answered well. Screw up your buttered words, I don’t care.

[KhaliL]

Look my friend, believing in the day of judgment doesn’t mean waiting for anything miracle to happen in this world.. And how you implied that!

Why? Don’t you believe in miracles that are going to happen prior to Judgment Day?

These are indeed extraordinary.. But the argument here isn’t about happening the miracle. But the point here is that Muslims are waiting for some miracles or not.. The hour is the ultimate state of the world and it’s must fact that would happen as far as we Muslim believe. And there would be some signs before the hour that would confirm the imminence of the hour. Muslims arent waiting for the hour to come quickly because its not pleasing to anyone….

You as a Muslim are obliged to believe in the Hour. Then what makes you lie you don’t believe in the miracles that are going to happen? Annihilation of Jews by the hands of Muslims is one of the miracles because you Muslims are going to do it with the help of talking stones and trees. And you should believe in it as long as you believe in the hour.

No escape or excuses. You believe in the Hour, and then you believe in total annihilation of Jews. Try some other lies to fool out people in this forum. The above does not work.

First of all, here I thank you as you have agreed with the fact that in Quran , its emphatically stated that Allah is just for everyone regardless of their faith.. If you work harder than me, you will get the success and your being a non-Muslim wont create any obstacles for you because Allah is Just.. Now, about the fact of the creation of some human and djinns for hell. Could you please refer me the verse to be more precise.

Screw up you Taqiyya Muslim; why don’t you quote me in full? I said about your god destroying townships after townships too despite him being just. Why did you omit that part?

Who are you trying to fool out?

I have chopped off some parts of your nauseating preaching. Do not freakin waste our bandwidth. If you want to preach, go to the mosque next, this forum is for discussion.

I have seen that you have been repeating the sentence that there numerous sects of Muslims. You doubt that the number of sects would equal to the number of Muslims. Before putting this ridicule on the show, you should have been much more careful in identifying whats called version. If there are minor differences between two difference group of Muslims, this will not create two different version.

Tell this to Ahmed Bahgat a Muslim in this very forum. He will call you a Mushrik because you rely on hadiths.

Go sort out your differences first and come here to preach later.

But it seems that you feel that if there is any subtle difference, this will cause new version. What pathetic, my friend!! To tell you truth, There is only one version of Islam though seemingly it might be confusing to you! Take the five pillars of Islam, and tell me which version denies this.. If there are differences in deciding anything about a Nafal(optional) prayer between two groups, it doesn’t create division in terms of general understanding of Islam. So, my friend, your fantasizing becomes ridiculous when you try to say that there are numerous versions. Yes! There are different in opinions about some facts that arent very important to general Islam. Therefore, the boundary of version doesn’t exist when we talk about Islam and its roots…

Spoiler! :

I do wonder that why do you that much worried about versions of Islam.. Every Muslim is bound to believe in the Glorious Quran and there are common understanding of faith among all the Muslims. You know these! The common understanding is the Islam, and the rest are minute differences as far as faith in general in concerned. You aren't concerned with those minute differences, are you? Those minute differences have no importance the fort of faith. Only basic facts bears great importance to our faith. So, your apprehension about the versions of Islam is meaningless as long as you want to deal with Islam and its teachings..

I know whats in your repository to refute my claim. You will surely try to allude the Shia and Sunnis and few other different sects of Islam. But dont forget that all the sects are bound to believe in Quran and the basic teachings of Islam are same and there are no differences. It makes Islam, unbroken despite having different opinions

You are not supposed to preach this to me an atheist. I don’t damn care whether you are one or 1.5 billion. You may go to either Karachi or any parts of Sudan or Somalia and preach your brother there is only one Islam and it is not fun enough to kill each other.

Go preach them; you guys are killing each other because of the miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinor differences. Then it is up to you to sort out.

But make sure your head remains above your neck. Is it not a precious thing to you? It is not a decoration but it is essential for you to live. What you are going to loose is that organ if you go and preach your brothers who explode inside mosques and crowded streets to kill innocent Muslims because of miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinor differences.

Do not come up preaching again. If you have anything worthy to say, come up but not like what you did above. Stop lying about your book and beliefs. It is not going to work against an Ex-Muslim.

And do not preach. That makes you singularly unattractive. That is why you got what you deserved from me.


KF

[KhaliL]

______________________________

This post was not supposed to be here but Lincoln's impatience interfered with the flow of the debate and I am forced to post rebuttal to his nauseating preaching before I could finish. However, let me post this too as Lincoln or any Muslim should not have a feeling that I evaded a post or posts without answering:

My friend! You are making too much of accusation. Let me deal with them one by one.

Now that looks better. Bring up your answers one by one.

Lets start from the beginning of the problem in the modern age. Al-qaeda and Taleban are not very old organizations that have been existence for more than say half a century. Why they hell of these organization suddenly sprang up? Whats the bloody reasons behind that? Where was Goddamn Al-Qaeda and Taliban in 70s.?

Well, in 60s and 70s the trend was towards communism. Islam and communism have one thing in common. Militancy;. While Soviet Union was alive as a super power, Islamic world glued to it thus Islamic militancy survived under the banner of communism. But the trend was transient. Muslims soon became aware of the inherent dangers in communism. That began as fight against a communist government in an Islamic nation.

It is beyond the scope of this discussion if we go through the roots of Al-Qaeda and Talibanism. But if you want to accuse United States’ short-sighted foreign policy behind Al-Qaeda and Taliban phenomenon, I would agree with you because US DID make many false moves. But the problem for such an argument is: if a nation like US can turn Muslims into bloodthirsty monsters, it is a definite indicative of weakness of the faith Islam.

Was Islam not there? Why the Goddamn Hamas is there in Gaza?

Hamas in Gaza? Because they believe in the total annihilation of Jews by the hands of Muslims. Islam is there so Hamas is there. If Islam is not there; there is not going to be any HamASS.

Why the Goddamn Chechen rebels are in Chechniya now? Why n we don’t see them active before?

LOL.. Chechnya is a Muslim majority state which was part of Soviet Union. They started the fight; and Russia dealt them like your Muhammad dealt Jews of Medina. Crushed the rebellion using iron fists; so what? Chechen rebels are there but who cares..? Russia and China knows how to deal with Muslims, because they believe in giving the devil its due principle. It is the only thing that is going to work with Muslim fundamentalists. The way Europe and US deal Islamic militancy is not satisfactory at all. You Islamists are needed to be dealt in Chinese model. In case you don’t know what it means Chinese model, the link will help you: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Worl ... 616493.cms" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Man! There are many more facts need to be analyzed before generalizing Islam and creating a direct connection between Islam and them..

Even if I blindly accept what you want to say about, that does not give a hoot for Muslims as the best people among the mankind to become fanatic bloodthirsty mongers. As the best community over this planet; Muslims should show supreme morality than any other group. But so far in the history of Islam we did only see the cult creating bloodthirsty monsters. In the earlier days of Islam, it was Khalid Bin Walid who killed illiterate war captives just because they could not utter a word “Aslamna” properly. Check Sahih Bukhari: Book 89: Hadith: 299. Go figure.

Confusion is a by-product of time and the time of incessant oppression against Muslims has made some Muslims to get completely confused. And now we are experiencing the consequence of that. The Book Quran is a solace for Muslims and that’s what matter. When people are trapped in a situation , they use all types of methods to make themselves free.

Oh I see… so you mean those trapped in a SITUATION (laughs) can become terrorists and inspiration can be acquired through Quran. Hey man… if your book is that much vulnerable for misinterpretations, then it is time to scrap it. I mean high time;

But Again, I don’t have any sympathy against Taliban or the a group like this one. What I do is that I want to dive deep into a problem to see what really caused the problem..

Are you sure? But so far you defended these bloody monsters as some people trapped in a SITUATION. And yes, I went deep into the problem to see only Islam there.

Have you ever heard of a Palestinian Christian suicide bomber? After all, they are also oppressed as you Muslims in that par. What makes only Muslims blow up in the crowded streets? Heck… you Muslims are arguing there are Christians along with you to fight Israel, but why do you Muslims do all the blowing up?

Answer please;

Did you forget the democratic Election In ALGERIA in 1992 , when Islamist won the election but then election result was overthrown.. This was a major reason of militant fight in Algeria.. Man! Why you guys don’t look at the problem from where it started! Islam have always been an easy target and no exception now as well.

Thanks good heavens that was overthrown or we would have been another Talibanistan there in Algeria now.
And I don’t get the last part; you mean an overthrown election result is enough reason for Algerian Islamists to plot bombs in schools? Is it enough reason for your Muslim warriors to kill innocent villagers? Oh.. you should necessarily have your answer to this. Government does all this to give you Islamists a bad name. Isn’t this what you gonna argue now. But poor Muslim; you closed that doors above by admitting there is Islamic militancy in Algeria now. And what goddamn you call it fight? It is terrorism; you Taqiyya Muslim.

And more than 98% Muslims are Muslims just like me.. Still you don’t believe that Islam is what I believe rather You try to depict Islam in other way! Isnt it surprising!

You lost your chance to be a passive Muslim way early; you are a Taqiyya Muslim. Do not boast about you and kinds of Muslims again. In case you don’t understand, we infidels are way smarter than you Muslims to recognize real Muslims sleeping inside every peaceful looking Muslims.

Have you already forgot what you said before about Islam ruling the world. You have made statement just in your last post that Islam once ruled the world.. How can then it be a failure.

I did NOT say Islam ruled the world, but I DID say Islam was highly imperialistic in the past. That is what I remember, and I don’t think I would make such an awkward statement like Islam once ruled the world. Do you think I am foolish enough to make such an inference?

Islam ruled a good part of world in the past; but there were more victorious persons and ideologies in the past than Islam. The reason I stated 1400 years of history is a failure is: Islam did not bring peace to any world but Islam won to shed blood only. That is what I mean failure. Islam is not a peaceful religion. It is inherently fanatic.

Can you give a single reference about the fact that any civilization that was entirely based upon a religion ruled the world other than Islam..

What makes it Islam any superior? Other religious groups were not keen to establish nations in the names of religions, but Muslims were because it is prescribed in Quran.

Islam did not rule the world. Are you sure it was Islam and true Muslims ruling India for a long time? I have come across many Indian Muslim apologists claiming those came to conquer and rule India were not true Muslims..!!

As long as European were stuck to Christianity , they failed and they were in the cave of darkness. Whenever, they came out of the shackle of Christianity , they flourished. No other religion have been as successful as Islam in the history of Mankind. You differ with me but you don’t have a proof..

What proof I have to produce to assert those great scientists of Islam were not true Muslims? Hey man.. Deviating from the main-stream Islam is what gave Islam an edge then along with many other factors. If you do not know of this well, do not dole out ignorance. This is what my research subject now, in case you want to know.

Thank you Khalil for you insight into this matter.

I am sure that you didn’t want to say that Muslim doctors advise patients to utter some dua without prescribing them Medicines! But if you did mean that, everyone watching the show will judge you!

Nobody is going to judge me negatively because I have seen this in front of my eyes Muslim doctors reciting Quran to patients suffering from depression and other disorders. In Saudi Arabia, there is still a belief persisting among educated Muslims Djinns are causing epilepsy and Quran is good for it. Screw Up!

Anywayz, influencing a patient with positive remarks is always a very good way to keep him more lively and more confident of getting rid of the disease. And a Muslim doctor after prescribing the patient if influence him/her to have faith in the Almighty God, whats the problem here my friend? Isnt it a very good practice?

NO. That is NOT good if it is an atheist patient the doctor dealing with. NOT a good practice to exploit the helplessness of patient. They come for treatment and they are not seeking god.

Ask yourself or a doctor you know. Now, I see the obvious misunderstanding you have about the Glorious Quran, thinking it to be everywhere where its not. A Muslim doctor's personal and daily life is dictated by the Quran if he/she is religious but it doesn’t create any obstacles for him/her to do any research. Rather, when a doctor doesn’t have to worry too much about his spiritual being, he would become much more able to do research!

LOL… that is why Saudi Arabia is one of the most scientifically advanced countries of the world…!!!

Screw UP;

You are talking with me! And what I am explaining wont be same as anyone else. This is not said to mean that I am different from other Muslims, but the point here is that you are talking with me, therefore, discussion between you and me only matters.

I can not repeat an argument ad nauseum. Even though it is you in front of me now, I am not obliged to answer every piece in details to you. If I have dealt the matter somewhere else, I can link you to it, and if you do not want to click the link, then you have your rights to NOT to click. NO need of this preaching;

Others not. Therefore, you answer to my explanation is that debate! I don’t care and I don’t give much importance as well.. Anyway, as you have said, I will look through that debate..

And did you finish it? And what you got from it?

---------------

Damn… still there are more in Lincoln’s post. If the man does not comes up, I will finish it soon.

Still:

NO RESPONSE is guaranteed for preaching. I would like to remind Lincoln on this again.

KF

[Lincoln]

Hello
greetings to everone,

I am really sorry being late here. I will deal with Khalil's all these posts soon. Guys, patience has its rewards.


Best Wishes

[KhaliL]

Hello
greetings to everone,

I am really sorry being late here. I will deal with Khalil's all these posts soon. Guys, patience has its rewards.


Best Wishes

But Preach NOT;

Regds

KF