Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

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Re: Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

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Re: Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

Post by winston »

Hello All,

I've been reading along but i'm too busy to really get into this right now, although it is interesting.

One thing I'd like you (debunker) to answer is in regards to the following verses:
22Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
The Jews clearly thought Jesus was claiming to be God and no doubt some of the bolded parts above led to that charge (I would certainly think these words blasphemous too unless they were coming from God). Jesus' actual name 'Yahshua' is itself quite blasphemous because it means 'I save' which is Gods ability alone no?

Anyway, Jesus here had a golden opportunity to definitevly and unambigously state that he was not claiming to be God in the flesh but just another messenger or 'warner' as with Mohammed in the Quran for example. He does not do this however (the proceeding verses are in the spoiler below). Did Jesus want people to be so confused that all Christians (with the exception of JWs) believe him to be God in the flesh?
Spoiler! :
34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

40Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. Here he stayed 41and many people came to him. They said, "Though John never performed a miraculous sign, all that John said about this man was true." 42And in that place many believed in Jesus.
Another question for you is in regards to the actual corruption of the Bible...If NT scriptures preserve Jesus true message (the message which happens to be compatible with your pre-existing Islamic beliefs) then where is the corruption which Muslims typically speak of? I took it for granted that Muslims objected to the NTs teaching of Jesus being God in the flesh because it contradicts the Quran, hence these things must have been written in by early Christians under some elaborate conspiracy. But you're saying that the actual scripture itself does not claim Jesus as God, it's just been misinterpreted by 99% of the people who read it :huh:

Winston
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Re: Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

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Winston!

Your very presence here is an HONOR bestowed upon me!

First, let me make one thing very clear. I am not here to claim that the Bible is corrupted. I am here to show that Chrisians are confused about their Bible as it is in fact a very confusing book. So please forgive me for not answering your question pertaining to my own religion. In this thread, I am not a Muslim. In fact, if it's any help, you can pretend that I am a Martian coming from Mars where I worshipped myriads of Martian gods!

<deleted for blasphemy.>

Anyway, let me repeat myself and say the same thing I said to Chief regarding the verses John 17:20-21:
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Now, if you read this verse the same way you read the one you listed then you'll be making the disciples God. Don't read too much in Jesus' vague words or you'll be worshipping many people as God.
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Re: Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

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debunker wrote:Winston!

Your very presence here is an HONOR bestowed upon me!
I am humbled before thee kind sir :)
debunker wrote:First, let me make one thing very clear. I am not here to claim that the Bible is corrupted. I am here to show that Chrisians are confused about their Bible as it is in fact a very confusing book.
With such a simple premise how can you lose? Of course the Bible is bound to be confusing in places. It contains over 30,000 verses written by numerous authors over several thousand years, the fact that it makes any sense at all is miraculous. Many books are confusing but that does not necessarily validate or invalidate their content. All religious texts that I have read are confusing in places and because every human being is different it is inevitable that people will have different ideas and interpretations of such subjective writings as religious scripture...quite often with a heavy bias one way or another (which is why I mentioned your position on Christianity as someone brought up in a Muslim family, the same can be said for most Christians).
debunker wrote:Now, coming back to the verse you listed. The answer is in the spolier! Jesus clearly is talking about his very special relation with God and he used language that might be confused by others as him claiming to be God (in fact confusion, is the Bible's forte).
This seems like a weak answer to me in light of the verses that have been posted previously. If Jesus was not God then his words and deeds as recorded in the NT (if accurate) would be extremely blasphemous for anyone else to speak and his response would have been so much clearer if he wasn't claiming to be God. Why even risk one person falsely believing in Jesus divinity when he could have set everyone straight from the start...what was different about Jesus compared to the other Jewish prophets that everyone thought he was God in flesh and not Moses or Jacob etc?

The overwhelming majority of Christians who read the Bible have no doubt that Jesus claimed to be 'God in the flesh', just because you disagree does not mean that you are correct and everyone else is confused. Maybe you are confused?
debunker wrote:Anyway, let me repeat myself and say the same thing I said to Chief regarding the verses John 17:20-21:
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Now, if you read this verse the same way you read the one you listed then you'll be making the disciples God. Don't read too much in Jesus' vague words or you'll be worshipping many people as God.
I don't see any vagueness in these verses especially in relation to your claims. To me this verse is saying that Christians should be united as a 'family' under God after accepting his offer of salvation through his son...which is consistent with many other parts of the NT.

Winston
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Re: Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

Post by winston »

Debunker,

One that grabbed me from your first post is this:
He was a man. A sinless man because he was constantly guided by God but that does NOT make him God.
Do you believe it is possible for any human being on this earth to live a sinless life? From a philosophical point of view, in my opinion, I can not believe this for one second. I don't care what any scripture says on this topic, I can plainly observe for myself that everyone on this earth is guilty of committing many 'sins' in their life big and small. I find it impossible to believe that someone can live a faultless and perfect life on this earth, if it has been accomplished by Jesus as you say (and as the Bible claims) then how can this person not be the physical manifestation of God? If there is a God (which I do believe) then he alone is perfect and sinless. I don't derive that belief from the Bible or anywhere else but from empirical evidence (every human being on this earth proves it).

Winston
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Re: Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

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Re: Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

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debunker wrote:He was never called God except once by Thomas when he was in shock to see Jesus alive after his crucifiction. ONLY once.
The rest of the NT proves Jesus was NOT God. But I'll pretend that Jesus is God in this post.
There are many compelling evidence both in the OT and the NT that He is indeed God:

1. He did miracles in His own name
2. John 10:30 (I and the Father are one)
3. John 10:33 (“For a good work we stone thee not; replied the Jews, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself
God.” )
4. John 8:58 ("I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. ")
5. Other places where Jesus connects Himself to "I AM" are in John: 4:26, 8:24, 8:28 and 13:19.
6. Colossian 1:15-17 (Jesus is the image of the invisible God)
7. John 1:1 (the Word was God), John 1:14 (The Word was made flesh)
8. Acts 20:28 tells us, "...Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood."
9. God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up
into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
10. Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 7:14 (written 712 BC) Note: "Immanuel" means 'God with us'
11.Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God
with us. Matthew 1:23
12. For unto us a Child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder: and his name will be called Wonderful,
Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 (written 712 BC)
13. And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his
people. Luke 7:16
14. John 5:18 (..because he had not only broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making Himself equal with God.)
15. You call Me Teacher and Lord; and ye say well; for so I Am. John 13:13
16. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5
17. For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9
18. Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Philippians 2:6
19. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels,

preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
...... and many more.

Besides verses, His actions and examples, His miracles, His authority, His birth story, etc all point to Him being extraordinary. Therefore it is more logical that He is God than the other way round.
LOL! Although I reject your anology, I'll play along. So why would God KILL Himself to save those people in quick-sand? What an
idiotic thing to do, don't you think? Why giving a blood sacrifice is the ONLY way for Him to save us? And to top it off, He KILLED non other
than Himself, what a moron! And He calls this justice!!!!
Actually, when Christians make Jesus = God, they make the story of salvation even more insanely complicated! Remember? God KILLED
Himself as a sacrifice to Himself to serve justice demanded by Himself! How can you describe this as anything but a nauseating joke?
No, what I want to ask is this: Why can't God save those who love Him and try their best to please Him without having to KILL Himself?
In fact, even God pleaded with Himself for another way!!! (but eventually He decided that KILLING Himself is the only way!!!)
See, you are running in circle.
Ok, by killing Himself He has conquered DEATH. (This DEATH is likened to the rope thrown into the quick-sand. It is up to us to grab or not
to grab this rope). This is THE WAY.
Jesus didn't call His sacrifice 'justice'. He calls it salvation, saving, redeeming, 'breaking the spell'

Number 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent], and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he
looks at it, shall live."

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,..... (anyone who takes Jesus's
offer of Salvation and believe in His Death and Resurrection will live, eventhough he dies.
Chief, pretend that you are God, ok? Now, I sinned, but I love You and I'm trying my best to obey You and I believe I can be saved
ONLY by Your grace. Now, why do You have to KILL Yourself (or Your son) to save me?!!!
There lies the problem. You believe you can be saved by My Grace? Unfortunately no, you have to be salvaged first. You are down there in the
quick-sand. Praying 50 times a day, giving whatever alms, helping others will not get you out of there unless you grab the rope that I throw
in. Now perishhhhh !!!! :lotpot:
Anyway, I don't know when I'm going to post my next lecture. But it will be on how confused Christians use the Bible to justify their violence.
Boy!!! This is going to be very interesting.... take your time debunker.
I was chingachgook in the old forum. In this new Reservation forum I was made a Chief :whistling:

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Re: Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

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Re: Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

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I wrote :"He did miracles in His own name"
debunker wrote: "Examples?"

ALL the miracles of Jesus (healings, raising the deads, interfering with nature, exorcism, creating out of thin air) He did in His own name.
Here's a link to all the miracles : http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/jmrcls.html
This is in contrast to miracles performed by His Apostles and Priests who invoke the name of Jesus especially in exorcisms
I discussed all of this in my previous posts in this thread (with you and others). Going against the truth in the NT and claiming that Jesus is God and believing in the magical formula 1+1+1 = 1, does not help make God of the Bible look any better, all it does is that it shows that He is a mentally deranged monster.
Aha... finally we come to the notorious 3-in-1 and 1-in-3. I say no, God is not a mentally deranged monster, Profit Mohammad was. By denying
the triune nature of God we cannot piece together what we have in the Bible, i.e. they don't make sense. If you are saying it is ridiculous
then you are limiting the power of God. There are many ways of 'seeing' the Trinity. President Barack Obama is the President of the USA. At
the same time he is also the father to his kids and husband to his wife. As a father he seems to be a different person. His kids call him
dad. His wife calls him "Darling, honey.....etc". If he falls sick he becomes a patient. If he drives then he is a driver and as a driver he
acts in conformity to the law etc. In office he would say, "The President of the USA has the authority to approve this...." He doesn't say,
"I have the authority ...."

If mere mortal man can be more-than-3 in One why must we ridicule just 3? The other way of looking at it is from the within us. We have body,
soul and mind. But the truth is that the Son is God's 'Word', the Spirit is God's Spirit. We can see all three of them when Jesus was
baptised: there was the voice (Father), the Dove (Spirit) and Jesus Himself. Jesus Himself approved of the 3 when He instructed His Disciples
to baptise in the 3 names.
You're one ruthless God, Chief! And why does the rope have to be your own son's dead body?! You are God, can't you find another rope? In fact, even Jesus begged His Father that He could find another way, but evidently both You and the God of the Bible are merciless!
Well it's so much better that God is satisfied by the blood of Christ, no more killing of animals or other humans like we see in Iraq which
are done in the name of Allah. It is merciless of a god who creates and then destroys and perhaps enjoy to see humans suffer while he sits in
his throne with the sun postrating .... oooops sorry no Quran. :D

Seriously what God has choosen He has choosen. We need to e-mail Him and ask why. :drool:
I never claimed that the NT promotes violence. I said I'll show how confused (lying) Christians use the Bible to justify their violence.
That's true, the NT doesn't promote violence. It promotes love. Please show us how lying Christians use the Bible in vain.

I would also like to leave you this gem:

"If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- an imperfect Christian." --- Chief Chingachgook
I was chingachgook in the old forum. In this new Reservation forum I was made a Chief :whistling:

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Re: Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

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I dont expect MUSLIMS who been raised and taugh killing stealing raping for Mohammed to understand the true message of Jesus or the bible.

47:4 "Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks, at length when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them) ... but if it had been God's will, he could certainly have exacted retribution from them (himself), but (he lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of God, he will never let their deeds be lost."

Smite their necks, lets you fight, to test you, seems your Allah loves the sight of blood like the pagan romans, loved watching men killing each other, for sport, to please the emperor..

2:216 "Fighting is prescribed for you and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth and ye know not."

fighting is good as long as you kill rape steal take slaves and bring the booty to Mohammed, was Mohammeds law.

.5:36 "The punishment of those who wage war against God and His apostle and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land. That is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter."

crucifixion cutting off hands and feet from opposite sides, your Allah is out doing the pagan romans cruelty

Now lets see the true meaning and teaching of JESUS in the Bible.., this sums up the bible message which i know is hard for the Muslim mind to understand, because its the opposite messege of what your insane desert prophet taught and did,

But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. "And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' "

Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink? 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 'And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'

"And the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
"
Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:31-46)

do you understand the message now debunker ? if not, this should be enough even for you, but i doubt it.

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. ( Matthew 7:12)

This is the Golden rule for all Men to live by, now u can waste your time denying Jesus divnity like a good Mohammdan
but you will never find a better messege in your prophet, or your Quran...all u will find is hate. fighting. killing for your blood thirsty moon God and his alter ego Mohammed, shows which message is of God and which is of satan...

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Re: Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

Post by winston »

debunker wrote:Two posts in one day from Winston! I feel very special!

Your words dear Winston:
Of course the Bible is bound to be confusing in places. It contains over 30,000 verses written by numerous authors over several thousand years, the fact that it makes any sense at all is miraculous.
That's what I'm trying to do... discuss this "MIRACLE"!!! Indeed, it's a miracle that with all those different authors, the Bible is virtually contradiction-free! It must have been inspired by the same one truly confused God!!! :lotpot: So no, I'm not saying that the Bible is corrupted, but rather God of the Bible must be brain damaged... :lotpot:
Congratulations on becoming an apostate!
debunker wrote:
Winston wrote:Many books are confusing but that does not necessarily validate or invalidate their content. All religious texts that I have read are confusing in places and because every human being is different it is inevitable that people will have different ideas and interpretations of such subjective writings as religious scripture...quite often with a heavy bias one way or another (which is why I mentioned your position on Christianity as someone brought up in a Muslim family, the same can be said for most Christians).
Well, my views on the Bible are totally neutral. I'm using the Bible to discuss the Bible. My views aren't biased in anyway...
Forgive me but I find that rather difficult to believe. Everyone on this forum has some degree of bias towards a particular belief or system of thought. Discussions would be much more honest and fruitful if there were no false pretenses about that. Then again this isn't a discussion but a 'lecture' so nevermind what I just said Professor D. ;)
debunker wrote:In particular, Christians revert to amazingly stupid circular reasoning to explain the idea of Salvation according to the Bible, it goes like this:

God cannot forgive you without a sacrifice --> But since no one can present a sacrifice worthy of God's forgiveness --> God sacrificed Himself to Himself in justice for Himself !!!

I honestly believe that this is, by far, the most stupid argument I ever heard my entire life and I don't think that I'll ever hear any argument more ridiculous than this.
That's your opinion and it's certainly worthy of consideration. Here's another perspective from a Christian whom I have spoken to in relation to the above:
(1) God keeps His promises -- so when He says 'when you eat of it, you will surely die' (Gen. 2:17), it does not fit with His character for Him to turn around later and say 'Oh, well, I guess I won't enforce my threat after all'.... instead, He provides the sacrifices (Genesis 3:21, Exodus-Deuteronomy, etc, pointing ahead to the Great Sacrifice, Jesus)..... God transferred my guilt onto Jesus, so that God poured out His wrath against my sin, upon Jesus (who volunteered for this out of His love for me).

(2) For God to require a penalty for sin to be paid really means that He is treating humans as legitimate moral agents... if He just overlooked their sin, it would be the same as saying "your sin wasn't really serious" and "your moral choices don't really have any significance"...
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/whyjust.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/inmyplace.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Winston
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Re: Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

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Re: Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

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Re: Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

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Re: Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

Post by Chief Chingachgook »

Ok, how about you read these verses carefully.
See John 11:40-43:
Jesus said to her, "Did I not say to you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?" So they removed the stone Then Jesus raised his
eyes, and said, "Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. "I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the people standing around I
said it, so that they may believe that You sent Me." When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth."
What do we understand from these verses? Jesus is asserting that when he performs miracles, he does it by the power of His Father. Only this
time he called to his Father for those standing around him to believe that he's doing this in his Father's name so that they can believe he
was sent by Him. So when he performs other miracles without mentioning his Father it's because he's communicating with him without having to speak out loud. It's already understood he's working under his Father's power.

John 11: 40-43 serves to show that Jesus is really sent by God. This miracle that He was about to perform was to be His last before He
Himself was crucified. He did not invoke the name of God in raising Lazarus. Jesus just did it. Jesus Himself is the Way, Truth and Life.
Jesus Himself is the Resurrection and the Life..

So I just wanted to state the obvious. Whoever believes in the Trinity must be able to believe that 1 + 1 + 1 = 1...
Debunker, why "1" and "+" and not "1" and "x". There is still the possibility of a "multiply" isn't there? And why not "1/3" and "+"? And how
do you explain the reverse? Fact is debunker, it is more complex than that.The mind, body and spirit makes an individual.

Ok, now this analogy sounds far much more reasonable. But, when I talk to you, I address you as one person. In the Bible however, Jesus and
God are two different beings. Jesus prays to his Father, he asks us to pray to his Father, so how come Christians pray to Jesus as well as
his Father? If they believe that they are literally one person then why don't they just worship God?
Aha... got you here. Christians have been worshipping THAT ONE God or God The Father or Heavenly Father since Jesus was no longer on earth. (Remember the "Our Father" that Jesus taught?) When we do that we also inevitably worship Jesus too since He is in The Father and The Father is in Him. When Jesus left He sent the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God. The 3 are worshipped as ONE GOD by invoking "Heavenly Father", "God the Father" or simply "God". I think you
should drop by in Church (Catholic please!) and see them for yourself. We pray "through" Jesus. As for the Saints we invoke their names to
pray FOR us or we invoke their names to simultaneously pray together with us to the Father THROUGH Jesus Christ or IN His name.
LOL! Quran again, Huh? No, I will not use Quran... I'll stick to the Bible. So Are you affirming that God of the Bible was indeed savage and
blood-thirsty when He reigned all over the first two thirds of the Bible but then He became docile after cannabilizing His own Son (or
Himself)?! That depends on how you see it. I have told you that the OT is all about how God treated a perverted, proud and stubborn generation of men.
God sometimes used human treatement to treat the other in much the same way an angry father played along with the tantrum of his son.
No Chief, your God's hunger won't be satisfied forever! He's only fasting! He just had a big delicious meal that could satisfy Him until the
end of days, after which He'll enjoy burning multitudes of people Himself in the Lake of Fire forever! See, His nature hasn't changed. He's
consistently blood-thirsty thoughout the Bible. In the NT, however, the perfect lamb was enough to sustain Him until the end of days, which
is not a long time for Him... after all, a thousand years to us is only one day to Him.
Delicious meal? Your accusations are baseless. Proove it? The NT is the New and Everlasting Covenant. The perverse generations of the OT were a generation of proud hippocrites. In the NT Jesus came not for those people who think that they are holy and are already saved BUT for left overs, i.e. sinners, the wearies and the heavily burdened.

I'm taking my time Chief. In fact, I barely have time to engage in these discussion sessions, let alone prepare new lectures (and btw, you haven't addressed many of the points I raised in my lectures... e.g. the "love" is NOT unconditional, etc...)
You complained of nausea, headache, .... so I eased up. As to "God's love" it is UNCONDITIONAL. You are confused between "LOVE" and "SAVE". It is because of His unconditional love that He threw in the rope remember? Remember this: LOVE exists with God since Day 1, since the banishment of Adam from Paradise. Remember the verse, "For God so love the world .... that He threw in the rope" that whoever grab the rope will not perish but will have everlasting life..... in other words "SAVED", "SALVAGED", "REDEEMED". God did not say, "I will send my Son IF YOU LOVE Me" did He?

No hurry debunker, take your sweet time. There will also be a time when I'll not be around too... :D

Take care!
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Re: Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

Post by debunker »

Our Chief,

You said:
Debunker, why "1" and "+" and not "1" and "x". There is still the possibility of a "multiply" isn't there? And why not "1/3" and "+"? And how
do you explain the reverse?
I already told you. This diagram is the basis for my formula.
Image

Aha... got you here. Christians have been worshipping THAT ONE God or God The Father or Heavenly Father since Jesus was no longer on earth. (Remember the "Our Father" that Jesus taught?) When we do that we also inevitably worship Jesus too since He is in The Father and The Father is in Him. When Jesus left He sent the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God. The 3 are worshipped as ONE GOD by invoking "Heavenly Father", "God the Father" or simply "God". I think you should drop by in Church (Catholic please!) and see them for yourself. We pray "through" Jesus. As for the Saints we invoke their names to pray FOR us or we invoke their names to simultaneously pray together with us to the Father THROUGH Jesus Christ or IN His name.
LOOOOL! So far in the opposing team we have a Jehova Witness, a Catholic and an Agnostic with Evangelical background. Evangelicals/Protestants call Catholics Mary worshippers. Jehova Witnesses call all other Christians: non-Christians! And all other Christians call Jehova Winesses a CULT! I don't know if I should be debating you guys or just sit back and relax and watch you debate each other? Anyway, for you Chief, whenever I address you, I'll pretend that according to the Bible Jesus is God and Trinity is easy to understand and the Salvation story makes perfect sense. How about that? Could you please, when you have time, move to discussing the other points I raised in my posts?
As to "God's love" it is UNCONDITIONAL.
Are you confirming what a typical Christian thinks? Just believe that Jesus is your savior and sin all you want? I debunked this belief in my earlier posts. So what do YOU think? According to the Bible, is faith without works enough?
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Re: Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

Post by winston »

debunker wrote: LOOOOL! So far in the opposing team we have a Jehova Witness, a Catholic and an Agnostic with Evangelical background (false assumption). Evangelicals/Protestants call Catholics Mary worshippers. Jehova Witnesses call all other Christians: non-Christians! And all other Christians call Jehova Winesses a CULT! I don't know if I should be debating you guys or just sit back and relax and watch you debate each other?
Hello Pot, I am Kettle.
debunker wrote:
Chief wrote:As to "God's love" it is UNCONDITIONAL.
Are you confirming what a typical Christian thinks? Just believe that Jesus is your savior and sin all you want? I debunked this belief in my earlier posts. So what do YOU think? According to the Bible, is faith without works enough?
Wow I'm bored and now done with this,

Regards,

Winston
http://www.jihadwatch.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://www.thereligionofpeace.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://www.prophetofdoom.net" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://www.islam-watch.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://www.faithfreedom.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

Post by debunker »

I'm sorry for making that "false assumption" Winston. But really it's your fault. Here's what you said in one of your posts:

"In the interests of fairness please balance your curses with some from the Quran, the Evangelical inside me is getting itchy."--Winston, the Agnostic.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=744&start=50#p20458" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Wow I'm bored and now done with this.
Guess what? I guess I'm bored too, so is S, Quills and I believe, Chief too...

The Bible can be very boring indeed, except for the horror stories and the erotic/obscene images filling the first two thrids of it. Well, that makes the last third the boring part... and the confusion it adds doesn't help at all.

Speaking of horror stories, Judges 18 is one of my favorite: The tribe of the Danites massacres ALL the residents of the peaceful city of Laish, Just because God promised the Land of Canaan to the Israelites. Talk about doing to others what you would have them do to you...
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=31;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

Post by Chief Chingachgook »

debunker wrote:LOOOOL! So far in the opposing team we have a Jehova Witness, a Catholic and an Agnostic with Evangelical background. Evangelicals/Protestants call Catholics Mary worshippers. Jehova Witnesses call all other Christians: non-Christians! And all other Christians call Jehova Winesses a CULT! I don't know if I should be debating you guys or just sit back and relax and watch you debate each other?
You are welcomed to watch. No worry they won't bomb each other's church or they won't strap bombs to their kids.... LOL
FYI Catholics are not Mary Worshippers. We honor her and invoke her to pray for us (intercede) to God. We do this not without biblical basis.

Mary has over the years appeared in apparitions and visions. If you wish you may sample some of these sites.

http://www.marypages.com/
http://www.miraclehunter.com/
http://www.catholicity.com/links/124/
Are you confirming what a typical Christian thinks?
I am a typical Christian meself debunker.
Just believe that Jesus is your savior and sin all you want? I debunked this belief in my earlier posts. So what do YOU think? According to the Bible, is faith without works enough?
Believing in AND taking Jesus as one's Saviour is but the first step. Anyone who does this He gives power to become His people. Next one must "take up his or her cross and follow Jesus". By this we mean follow His examples, obey His teachings, be ready to suffer or be persecuted (mostly by muslims), rejoice in God, trust in God, hope in God. We must feed the hungry, cloth the naked, welcome strangers, visit the sick..... and more. We are already "out of the quick sand pit where there was certain death and so we should rightly give thanks and praise and worship Him.

Believing alone is not enough for the devil himself believes too. :D
I was chingachgook in the old forum. In this new Reservation forum I was made a Chief :whistling:

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Re: Debunker lecturing Chief & pals on God of the Bible

Post by winston »

debunker wrote:I'm sorry for making that "false assumption" Winston. But really it's your fault. Here's what you said in one of your posts:

"In the interests of fairness please balance your curses with some from the Quran, the Evangelical inside me is getting itchy."--Winston, the Agnostic.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=744&start=50#p20458" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sorry debunker, in that case I falsely assumed you had a sense of humour.
debunker wrote:
Winston wrote:Wow I'm bored and now done with this.
Guess what? I guess I'm bored too, so is S, Quills and I believe, Chief too...

The Bible can be very boring indeed, except for the horror stories and the erotic/obscene images filling the first two thrids of it. Well, that makes the last third the boring part... and the confusion it adds doesn't help at all.
I'm bored with the agumentum ad nauseum:
"Ad nauseam" arguments are logical fallacies relying on the repetition of a single argument to the exclusion of all else. This tactic employs intentional obfuscation, in which other logic and rationality is intentionally ignored in favour of preconceived (and ultimately subjective) modes of reasoning and rationality.
debunker wrote: Speaking of horror stories, Judges 18 is one of my favorite: The tribe of the Danites massacres ALL the residents of the peaceful city of Laish, Just because God promised the Land of Canaan to the Israelites. Talk about doing to others what you would have them do to you...
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=31;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Are these writings a threat to me or my family? Is my house going to be bombed or my head cut off by the people who follow this book? The answer is no so ultimately i'm not that bothered with this right now...

Winston
http://www.jihadwatch.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://www.thereligionofpeace.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://www.prophetofdoom.net" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://www.islam-watch.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://www.faithfreedom.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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