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Re: Debunker Versus CharlesMartel: Quran, A Threat to NonMuslims

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:24 am
by KhaliL
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Hey Lincoln,

I appreciate your cordiality mate. It is a rarity among Muslims of this time but you stay exceptional. Thank you but I have this protest. You are dishonest in quoting me out of context and committing the fallacy of attacking strawman. This is intellectual dishonesty. I am sorry for starting with this accusation but you asked for it.

After reading your response, I understood you are trying to evade from difficult topics. Truth hurts but you have to learn to live with it. Next time, when you quote me quote me in context and do not attack strawman. Please;


Lincoln wrote:
KhaliL FarieL wrote:Oh too subjective a claim dear Lincoln.., there are objective and subjective truths and the latter can be almost defined as “truth is in the eyes of the beholder” but it is not what we are going to accept.

Its neither subjective nor objective. It lies in between these two extremes as I was talking about the possibility of him getting changed. And obviously we can talk a lot about the possibility but in the end we might get stuck again the middle of that two extremes.


Fallacy # 1 there was more in my argument but you conveniently skirted it. The part you omitted is coming later in your post but without that my above statement is incomplete. You can not single this particular statement out to attack straw man.

Still let me say, we are not stuck in the middle of two extremes in the case of Islam for the very reason the object we are focussing is immotile. How can you evolve from a basic that is rooted in a certain backdrop of history? As long as you don’t give me a satisfactory answer, I will keep asking.


Lincoln wrote:
KhaliL FarieL wrote:There is a universal consensus on some truths and Islam being an evil cult is one or prime of them.


There is no universal consensus about Islam. At most you can say that there are two types of opinions about Islam: one that does not hate Islam, another that does hate Islam. You my friend fall into the second category.


I have a certain lot in my mind when I am talking about universal consensus. Majority is not in favour of Islam, but against it as the true colour of Islam is being manifested for all on a momentary basis. So for my public, Islam is a deadly cult.

It is not a secret that I hate Islam. I never concealed my abhorrence to this deadly cult. But that does not mean I hate Muslims. I hate the Islam which produces Bin Ladens and Talibans.

Lincoln wrote: If a group of 1400 million living human beings can be called a cult according to standard English definition, I don’t have any objection with that because then I would see out green planet Earth is full of so many small and big cults that its really wonderful. Islam is indeed a large cult! :cool: ! What do you say?. If you use cult in a derogatory sense , you will find yourself in a downtrodden cult that loves to preach hate rather than love and reconciliation. .


Sorry, this is argumentum ad populum. You can not appeal to the number of adherents of Islam and prove it is not a cult. This is an abject tactic usually Muslims employ but that does not work here well. I would not stop asserting cannibalism is appalling though I have one on the end argues for it with an excuse of an entire tribe practicing it. The number does not count, but the practice does.

Lincoln wrote: What Miraculous points , you are trying to refer my erudite friend! In your Islamic days , You might have thought of some miracle but for me thing is a little different. Islam itself is the truth as it propagates the Unity of God, and being unadulterated during these 1400 years is the Miracle. .


This is laughable for many reasons. There are many ideologies existent in today’s world that are much older than your Islam. And your claim Islam remains unadulterated is funny indeed. How many sects were emerged within your Ummah soon after the death of your prophet Muhammad? Have you tried to count the existing variant sects of Islam? Do all these tell you of a miraculously untainted Islam that survived for centuries?

No my friend, change is inevitable and your Islam has been no exception to this. We witness to it in this board because you can have the other Muslim member disagreeing with you on matters of interpretation of Quran or your recognition of the authenticity of hadiths.

Lincoln wrote: The Unalterable Quran gives you supreme chance to excel in the fields of science and technology simply because of the fact that you wont have to worry about your religion and you need not edit it now and then and get spiritually vacuumed. .


Do you mean a joke or? Dude, the unalterable Quran is the prime undoing of Islam and you are taking pride in it because it tells you of speaking ants and hoopoes? Or is it because it curtails your thought process from the very first stating “there is no doubt in it?”

Lincoln wrote: Your response as I assume would be about current miseries of Muslim, and the reason behind Muslims current condition is the imperialism from a section of earth.


NO. I am not pointing my fingers to the pathetic state of some Muslim nations on earth. But when you talk about imperialism and cry on its shoulders for the penurious state of Muslims, I have to laugh a little because once in history, Islam was world’s biggest imperial power. Can you deny it?

Blaming Joos or great Satan for your miseries is pathetic to the most my dear friend. If you mean an imperial power or powers are causing all mishaps among the best people evolved for mankind as Quran stated, we have to doubt on the superiority of this best belief system. You attest to its weakness when you say you are helpless against a nation or nations or against some people or groups. Why should you dance to the tune of Taghoot?


Lincoln wrote: But you would love to remind you one verse of the Quran where Allah says that HE IS NEVER UNJUST TO ANYONE.


Hey…hey… what goes on…? You holler Allah is never unjust to anyone. But your Quran refutes it. We see a sadist all through Quran who creates some human beings and seals their hearts so that they can not believe. Then in utter psychosis, your god roars he will roast these unfortunate guys in his hell.

And you will still call him just?

Lincoln wrote: Therefore, if Muslims work for the development of their society , they will get developed . If they don’t strive, they wont get developed.


1400 years of failed history does not attest to the above statement. Honey… if the best of Muslims (as attested by your prophet) failed in making of a perfect society, if 14 centuries failed to produce one, you can not blame me for being extremely sceptical.

Lincoln wrote: What hidden treasures are you talking about Khalil!! There is no hidden treasure and we don’t look for any hidden treasures as well. When you talk with this tone , my friend you do confuse a lot of readers and the most who get confused are those who knows nothing about Islam and trust your erudite style of speech!


This is argumentum ad hominem. No special consideration per se.


Lincoln wrote:
KhaliL FarieL wrote:What the hell is this authentic source?


The hell of authentic source is guys who pretend to know a lot of Islam and make people confused!
And the heaven of authentic source! The real authentic source here means asking a proven scholar of Islam about the rulings of Islam according to the holy Quran and sunnah. For example, people should ask the scholars of :- http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... waCounselE
Who are Muslims and bear responsibility hold the authority.


You have sense of humour too…

I would like to know of your opinion about this gem that this most authentic online source produced:

It is reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “If a woman wears a perfume and then passes by people who smelled her perfume, she is then considered an adulteress. From the above hadiths, describing such a woman as an adulteress means that she is like an adulteress because she wears perfume with the intention of tempting men, which is undoubtedly an abominable behaviour.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... TheScholar

Go on and start doubting it too…. Or concord to the above foolishness;


Lincoln wrote: Rather than asking http://www.faithfreedom.org where instead of credible answers , we find people getting incredible lies with the misinterpretation!! And as a result, you guys can easily make people buffoon though I understand one fact that some people here are really touched and have tremendous problem and I feel the origin of their psychological unhappiness is their dissatisfaction with faith and their inability to find serenity in it and inability to find proper explanation of their instinctive ambiguous questions about faith.


Don’t worry about FFI. This site is not for promoting Islam rather our aim is to destroy it. But the sources we use are authentic sources of Islam. Much authentic than the above said online source or sources because; we extract information from Quran, Hadith and the traditional scholars authentic works. IF we do otherwise, you may point them. If presenting opinions of your authentic scholars of past (not current apologist Muslims) means distortion of facts for you, sorry we can’t help and you may continue whining about it.

What makes you insist we should accept the current Muslim apologetics than the much authentic opinions of scholars of past who lived with Muhammad or were close to the era of Muhammad?

Lincoln wrote: I strongly believe that you are definitely learned enough to find out the differences between " paving the way of modern civilization" and "building the modern civilization". No more comments..


Still it is a joke. Islam did not pave the way any civilization. A system which demands chopping off hands of thieves, killing apostates, stoning adulterers can not pave any way to civilization. It can only pay to halt progress; not contribute for it.

Lincoln wrote: Thanks dude. I am perfectly fine with this world and with my thinking as well. You cant say that you are more happy than me because you don’t believe in the after-life.


I did not claim I am happier than thou art, but I don’t submit myself to the fear psychosis. Remember “what you have to fear is fear itself” not a hell which does not have a real existence. It is a crazy imagination of people of past;

Lincoln wrote: But frankly speaking , believing in the after-life has made my life in this world more enjoyable and more significant and I value this life really a lot because of my Islamic teachings and you know, for that I cant destroy my life like a person who doesn’t believe in after life.


LOL… the fundamental problem with Islam is it does not value human life. It gives no importance to the one and only life human beings have. Instead of focusing on this life, it lures you to an imaginary brothel where large bosomed virgins plus pearly boys are waiting to serve your needs. Stop preaching mate, it is nauseating.


Lincoln wrote: The logic can come from the opposite way too. As you don’t believe in these, I would urge you to meditate about your life though I know it going to be real tough for you because spiritually you are dying. This comment is not for offending you but a sympathetic comment!! Awake!! Buddy


Oh… thanks I am wide awake and for more alertness, I have Ritalin in my medicine cabinet. What goddamn spirituality are you talking about man? Do you see a lot of spirituality in relinquishing a life that is precious for the sake of some transparent skinned virgins?

Lincoln wrote:
KhaliL FarieL wrote:You are absolutely clueless of the real Islam, let alone history in general still you will urge another to learn something in which you do not possess any riches at all…,


Well, thanks for insulting! I am clueless about my religion which I practice and you are full of clues of my religion! Sounds great, isn’t it!! …

It was not meant to affront you. And to answer the above, you forgot I was one among you once. I was there mate, footed pretty on the same platform where you are now.

Lincoln wrote: The logic of general understanding will go against your perception and that might have a conclusion for you that is "Pseudo scholar"… But one thing for sure, I do feel for your fall and for your catastrophic degeneration.


Oh… thanks for crying for me. Cry me a river but what catastrophic degeneration are you talking about? By all means I can prove those whom you Muslims consider hell-bound are way on top of humanity in all aspects than you god’s selected or appointed people. At least we have our senses intact not to blow up ourselves to kill innocents.
Screw up your Islamic prejudice. You guys are caught in a delusional superiority complex. When are you going to learn?

Lincoln wrote: I am fully aware of your thinking that you might say that I know nothing of my religion, and my friend, it’s the joke of the age to say that I don’t know my religion!. .


No, it is not a joke. I know your religion much better than you do. Remember this is not the first time we engage in this forum and I found you clueless on your sources whenever I quoted them.

Stop babbling….,

Lincoln wrote: The difference between you and me is that "you are fallen and couldn’t resist the onslaught of negativism and lost the power to perceive the wonderfully beautiful aspects of Islam, so nothing left to you " …and… "I haven’t lost my sight"… .


Where is Ahmed Bahgat’s “You are dismissed…? :lol: I need it here.

Lincoln wrote: This earthly life is our first and last earthly life, lets use it for the development of humanity both spiritually and materially .…


You make sense at last. So when are you going to publish your testimony?

Lincoln wrote: Thanks a lot for your time. You will remain a good friend of mine.
Best wishes.


Ditto Akhee ditto…

When you answer to this post, try to do without logical fallacies. And please, do not preach. It makes you very much unappealing. I do care my friends and I don’t like you dropped in such a pathetic state.


Take care my friend, take very good care,

KF

Re: Debunker Versus CharlesMartel: Quran, A Threat to NonMuslims

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:24 am
by KhaliL
double post deleted

Re: Debunker Versus CharlesMartel: Quran, A Threat to NonMuslims

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:46 pm
by yeezevee
My goodness Lincoln wrote 12 wonderful responses search.php?author_id=414&sr=posts and I have NOT read a single one..
our generalization fallacy in asking the question puts you into the category of those people who have hard time distinguish majority of Muslims and some misguided emotional oppressed Muslim minds who might have become bombers even if they werent Muslims.! For example, a palestinian suicide bomber becomes a suicide bomber not because he/she is Muslim, but because they are oppressed! The similarity here is with the Tamil Tigers of Srilanka who are also respnosible for suicide bombing. But guess what!! they arent Muslim,they say they are fighting for freedom. Some Muslim youth in general have become quite antagonistic with the west because of the reason that Muslim believes in Brotherhood , so when Muslims are attacked and oppressed in one corner of the world, their heart also get broken!! So, some of them ,out of sheer anger and anguish become suicide bomber! But the point of the points is that ISLAM DOESNT ALLOW THIS THAT KILLS INNOCENTS INDIVIDUALS. So, there is no connection between Islam and suicide bomber!! Take for example, the Tamil Tigers!
well dear Lincoln., is this Take for example, the Tamil Tigers! is only the example YOU HAVE or do you have any other also??

I asserted the fact that the UnalterableQuran provides you the opportunity to research vigorously in the field of science and technologybecause of the fact that a researcher needs not worry about how to lead his life as the essential codes and conducts are certain and wont get changed!! The Quran provides tremendous mental strength and it is the ground that gives stability!

Q'uran provides GREAT Opportunity... good... O.k., So which RELIGION OPPOSES the opportunity to research vigorously in the field of science and technology? And show me the Q'uranic verse that provide tremendous mental strength and it is the ground that gives stability., Show me other religious scriptures THAT WOULD NOT DO THE SAME THING as Q'uran does to Muslim Intellectuals like you..

Clear and consistent" doesn’t mean that you cant go to interpret differently. You might have forgot that majority of the people of the world don’t have any idea of Arabic language, therefore, the chance of the Quran getting misinterpreted is much higher!So, your exclaimed question has concrete answer. "Hypocrisy" is the term used against Muslims though its Muslims who hate hypocrisy most.
So you say many Muslims don't know how to read/write understand Arabic language and you are right., the % of Muslims in that category could be as high as 90%., and it is possible that 90% of Muslims do not have THE ABILITY TO READ, WRIT, UNDERSTAND and use common sense to analyze Quran., I understand that &I can see that, and it is clear from your posts YOU TOO appears to be a fellow of NOT having thorough ARABIC background dear Lincoln
The Noble Quran is a theological book that do cover a lot important aspects of life but that doesn’t mean Muslims don’t know how to talk about other subjects.
Off course not., and that also goes to every religion and religious scripture.. many of them do cover Important aspects of life. So what DOES THAT MEAN Q'uran is word of Allah/God and Mr. Muhammad,,ad was messenger ad Last messenger of Allah/God??
"Logic and reason" is progressive human understanding that may differ from person to person and being a Muslim and following the Quran doesn’t mean you live in 7th century. This utter inability to understand this very simple fact has made many people making all the nonsensical argument against Islam and Muslim.
Nonsense., People are questioning Islam and Mr Muhammad, Not because all Muslims are trying to go back to 7th century mind set., although MORE THAN 20% ~ 250 millions MUSLIM ROBOTS do go back to 7th century in their mind set., BUT because, Mr. Muhammad's Islam and his book is dangerous SOCIAL, POLITICAL concept that generated innumerable wars, fights killing with other religions/cultures and WITH IN ITSELF., I don't think you have read any history of Islam since its beginning..
The Psychological unhappiness, is a disease to the people who are shaken for their faith and they sometimes try to forget and denounce faith but its actually them who suffer from this terrible psychological problem.Islam provides a unique shelter against this kind of psychological problems as long as you understand Tawheed, the Unity of God in perfect sense in the light of the Quran and proper logic and reason.
Bull sh!t ., neither you have read Q'uran nor you know the meaning of Logic.. Try it from Q'uran, go chapter by chapter.. Let us tread ayah by ayah ..

It is true I missed reading all of Lincoln posts, I guess I should read all., .. But I am so glad you are writing in to FFI and reading ffi dear Mr. Lincoln.. Welcome to FFI

with regards
yeezevee

Re: Debunker Versus CharlesMartel: Quran, A Threat to NonMuslims

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:11 pm
by Lincoln
Hi, khalil

How are you doing!! You must be doing great , I guess.


KhaliL FarieL wrote:I appreciate your cordiality mate. It is a rarity among Muslims of this time but you stay exceptional. Thank you but I have this protest.


You are most welcome and I consider your protest is a result of misunderstanding. What I tried there is to elucidate your every points! There was no dishonesty and you can be sure of that .

KhaliL FarieL wrote:You are dishonest in quoting me out of context and committing the fallacy of attacking strawman. This is intellectual dishonesty. I am sorry for starting with this accusation but you asked for it.

My friend, the accusation has to be a very much lame one because as I told you I took your every point in high order to make things much clearer for everyone whoever reading this.

KhaliL FarieL wrote:After reading your response, I understood you are trying to evade from difficult topics. Truth hurts but you have to learn to live with it. Next time, when you quote me quote me in context and do not attack strawman. Please;


First of all, I don’t need to elude any points that you might think difficult and the simple reason is that I have been living with these. Therefore, avoidance is not a preferred technique that I follow…
Again, I aint trying to quote you out of context. If you want to see quoting out of context, just read chronologically my posts and posts of sunshine and yeezeveee respectively specially the post of the latter one's.


KhaliL FarieL wrote:Fallacy # 1 there was more in my argument but you conveniently skirted it. The part you omitted is coming later in your post but without that my above statement is incomplete. You can not single this particular statement out to attack straw man.


Response to the fallacy # 1 I asserted my argument on your statement of subjective and objective outlook. If we go back to the original statement of mine that gave birth of this para, you would see that I was talking about Kamaal's current comprehension of Islam and what the future might be. You then came up with the objection of subjectivity and this is what I denied simply for the fact that I was talking about possibility and thatswhy I asked Kamaal!!... Therefore, the statement that you used to refute my claim is fundamentally fallacious that annuls your claim of my fallacy..

KhaliL FarieL wrote:Still let me say, we are not stuck in the middle of two extremes in the case of Islam for the very reason the object we are focussing is immotile. How can you evolve from a basic that is rooted in a certain backdrop of history? As long as you don’t give me a satisfactory answer, I will keep asking.

First of all , allow me to ponder on the fact of your question. What types of evolving you are suggesting Khalil!? If you talk about religious evolving, I can safely say that yes, we can evolve and we do evolve. But this evolution of faith is dependant on certain concrete facts of The Quran and those rooted facts allow us to be in firm position considering the already settled ruling. Apart from those, anything that’s offer a new dimensional problem, Islam does evolve to settle those down. And you my friend is certainly very much aware of this as You had been with us for a long period of time! Since you knew this, I would like to understand and listen to your understanding of my point which I have made just now…. Evolution of a theory doesn’t require abandonment of the basic understanding!



KhaliL FarieL wrote:I have a certain lot in my mind when I am talking about universal consensus. Majority is not in favour of Islam, but against it as the true colour of Islam is being manifested for all on a momentary basis. So for my public, Islam is a deadly cult.

What you had in your mind while writing about the universal consensus is undetectable simply because of the reason that it would have been a lot more assumption from me to deem what is in your mind. Analyzing your statement isn’t that much intricate but its indeed surprising! You put forwarded a subjective conclusion that "Islam is evil and It’s a universal consensus". When you are asked about the basic premise of your conclusion , You have come up with the saying that " Majority is not in favour of Islam"… Believe me, with this statement you can put forward a lot of different angle to your position which mightn’t at the end result in your desired goal. The premise of your logic , unfortunately is too much weak to get considered…
KhaliL FarieL wrote:It is not a secret that I hate Islam. I never concealed my abhorrence to this deadly cult. But that does not mean I hate Muslims. I hate the Islam which produces Bin Ladens and Talibans.

This is the very subjective opinions of yours and I don’t blame you for having such an opinion. Bin Ladenism and Talibanism arent Islam! Islam itself is Islam! Millions of Muslims also hate Bin-Ladenism and Talibanism!


KhaliL FarieL wrote:Sorry, this is argumentum ad populum. You can not appeal to the number of adherents of Islam and prove it is not a cult. This is an abject tactic usually Muslims employ but that does not work here well. I would not stop asserting cannibalism is appalling though I have one on the end argues for it with an excuse of an entire tribe practicing it. The number does not count, but the practice does.


I am afraid Khalil, you have again missed your own point by a mile! Anyone reading my post would certainly find that I didn’t reject your accusation but I tried to put it into the light of reality. Subsequently, I didn’t use population to refute your accusation rather than I elaborated the definition so that things can become much clear to all of us., I don’t know you have done this intentionally or unintentionally, though I deem that you might faced some difficulty in getting point!!
Lets analyze your logic here:-
You put forwarded the logic that Islam is a cult. This is a conclusive remark that needs proper premises before it to make it logical.
I responded with the argument of reality referring how many people believe in Islam and If its called cult , then there are cults all around the world.. and Islam would then be considered a big-cult!! I haven’t found a judicous answer from you in this respect as well. Sorry

KhaliL FarieL wrote:
This is laughable for many reasons. There are many ideologies existent in today’s world that are much older than your Islam. And your claim Islam remains unadulterated is funny indeed. How many sects were emerged within your Ummah soon after the death of your prophet Muhammad? Have you tried to count the existing variant sects of Islam? Do all these tell you of a miraculously untainted Islam that survived for centuries?


My friend, don’t forget from where we started this part! I am here responding to your statement that we Muslim are waiting for some kind of Miracle, and as I have mentioned before also, you that statement was entirely made up! Unadulterated here meaning the unadulterated Quran which is most important! There are many older ideologies existent indeed, who denies this! Now, say that there are thousands sects of Muslims, but the Quran is one! Same! You know all this stuff,don’t you? thus I don’t consider this would make any impact upon you..
But the real point of yours which you have answered before, is your claim that we Muslims have been waiting for some miracle during the last 1400 years. And the reality is that we dont even think about the miracles that you deem Muslims eagerly waiting for!

KhaliL FarieL wrote:No my friend, change is inevitable and your Islam has been no exception to this. We witness to it in this board because you can have the other Muslim member disagreeing with you on matters of interpretation of Quran or your recognition of the authenticity of hadiths.

Exactly. Change is ineluctable. But Having discord on some points is not a sign of change rather it’s a sign of different views and understandings! This is a blessing.I don’t take it to extreme points, I live very fine with this..


KhaliL FarieL wrote:Dude, the unalterable Quran is the prime undoing of Islam and you are taking pride in it because it tells you of speaking ants and hoopoes? Or is it because it curtails your thought process from the very first stating “there is no doubt in it?”

Again, my friend you have been very much subjective that doesn’t have that much importance or significance. But I will analyze your second sentence:-
You have been certain that Quran curtails the thought process which is actually not true . We think on many different topics, don’t we? For example, a doctor thinks about his/she patients. A scientist thinks about the particular subjects he researches! A teacher thinks about his/her students and about teaching patterns. Now, though different people have different thinking , at one point they all meet in their thought process that is faith. In Islam, the Quran takes care of the faith and for that reason you are without the burden of thinking too much about faith which enables you to think more efficiently on the subjects of an individual's concern. It is certainly great if perceived properly, but my friend, I found your statement there to be a shallow one because it failed to perceive the implication of Quranic stance.
Therefore, the noble Quran doesn’t curtail our thought process, rather it facilitate our thought process.

.

KhaliL FarieL wrote:NO. I am not pointing my fingers to the pathetic state of some Muslim nations on earth. But when you talk about imperialism and cry on its shoulders for the penurious state of Muslims, I have to laugh a little because once in history, Islam was world’s biggest imperial power. Can you deny it?


No. I don’t deny it. And I thank you for you admit that Islam indeed ruled the world once for a long period of time. I would love it more, if you keep this in your mind in future too.
KhaliL FarieL wrote:Blaming Joos or great Satan for your miseries is pathetic to the most my dear friend. If you mean an imperial power or powers are causing all mishaps among the best people evolved for mankind as Quran stated, we have to doubt on the superiority of this best belief system. You attest to its weakness when you say you are helpless against a nation or nations or against some people or groups. Why should you dance to the tune of Taghoot?


I blame Muslims most though I find the reason to be the imperialistic nations. But its Muslim who actually brought this upon them by being largely apathetic to Islam.

KhaliL FarieL wrote:You holler Allah is never unjust to anyone. But your Quran refutes it. We see a sadist all through Quran who creates some human beings and seals their hearts so that they can not believe. Then in utter psychosis, your god roars he will roast these unfortunate guys in his hell.

And you will still call him just?

First of all, I would be delighted if you don’t abuse the name "ALLAH", if you want you may abuse me , I woudnt mind that much, but blaming and using abusive words against ALLAH hurt us a lot. I hope that you do understand what I have been talking about!
And..Indeed,Allah the Almighty is just. But the frustration that overwhelms you is the reason of not getting the point in way as it should be. Someone's power of thinking will get weakened only if he intentionally rejects the true GOD. Now, if you do this without knowing the fact, why would you fear about getting the heart sealed…


The Qur’an mentions in Surah Nisa:
"Allah is never unjust in the least degree".[Al-Qur’an 4:40]

It is further mentioned in Surah Al-Ambiya:
"We shall set up scales of justice for the day of Judgement, so that not a soul will be dealt with unjustly in the least. And if there be (no more than) the weight of a mustard seed, we will bring it (to account): and enough are we to take account".
[Al-Qur’an 21:47]

Therefore, see the Quran doesn’t refute my statement rather its strengthen my point in a greater degree.



KhaliL FarieL wrote:If presenting opinions of your authentic scholars of past (not current apologist Muslims) means distortion of facts for you, sorry we can’t help and you may continue whining about it.
What makes you insist we should accept the current Muslim apologetics than the much authentic opinions of scholars of past who lived with Muhammad or were close to the era of Muhammad?

Here the dishonesty will get divulged my friend. You have long been claiming on the fact that Islam cant be reformed and Islam is this and that!!! But what an irony! When we propose you to take the rulings of the best Muslim scholars we have today, you tend to reject them with a lame accusation of" Apologist". Here , I am not targeting you personally, but I am targeting the general feeling of the Islam haters. When in front of you , the best Muslim scholars giving their opinion , you should have the courage to accept them as authentic! Simple and easy. The Quran is same and the teachings are same, but in different age, to meet different challenges the Quran is capable and the scholars of that concerning age are most trustworthy as long as they derive a conclusion from the Glorious Quran and the teachings of the prophet. We will also have to find out whats the majority view, and Islam goes on like this. When you avoid this very fact or when someone evades this very fact, we can get suspicious of him and his intention.. And now you can judge yourself.


KhaliL FarieL wrote:Still it is a joke. Islam did not pave the way any civilization. A system which demands chopping off hands of thieves, killing apostates, stoning adulterers can not pave any way to civilization. It can only pay to halt progress; not contribute for it.

Again, I am sorry! You haven’t given a cogent argument to support your conclusion of "Islam did not pave the way any civilization!!" There is no premise to support your conclusion. Islam doesn’t only mean those punishment!s you quoted. I would love to learn from you that how and when modern civilization started!! If Islam had halted progress, who would have done all those works in science and technology during 700-1400 ad! Savage Europeans?. Or forever gone Greeks?..


KhaliL FarieL wrote:I did not claim I am happier than thou art, but I don’t submit myself to the fear psychosis. Remember “what you have to fear is fear itself” not a hell which does not have a real existence. It is a crazy imagination of people of past;


Yes, indeed you did not claim. This supports the fact that believing in after-life doesn’t make a person sick and unhappy.
Now to the second point. I object your assumption that its all about fear of hell!! For me, it’s the love of God that drives me to do good and that makes me happy. Here, you see the difference lies in the perception , you perceive fear , I perceive love. So, generalizing "Hell" for all, is a serious flaw in argument!

KhaliL FarieL wrote:the fundamental problem with Islam is it does not value human life. It gives no importance to the one and only life human beings have. Instead of focusing on this life, it lures you to an imaginary brothel where large bosomed virgins plus pearly boys are waiting to serve your needs. Stop preaching mate, it is nauseating.


Period. I am not surprised that you believe Islam doesn’t value human life.!! I actually believe the complete opposite point of what you believe. Everything you do in this life is important! Every little , tiny facts are important and a true Muslim gives maximum importance on that so that he can get peace both in this world and in hereafter. You have to value this life a lot if you want to value your after life. If you value life , you wont destroy it! You will have a target and aim in life. Islam gives maximum importance on this. This is how I understand Islam and this is what the general Muslim feeling is. But yes! In comparison to the life in hereafter, this life is really a momentary, temporary one, but its this life which will determine how we would be in the after life…. So the importance of this life is very very great!! Therefore to say that Islam doesn’t give importance to this life isn’t true at all. One thing that might be acknowledged that the material aspects of life arent preferred in Islam to the extent the materialist prefers. But still in Islam there is beautiful harmony of materialism and spirituality in this life that makes Islam more appealing.. Islam doesn’t forbid its followers to gain prosperity materially, Islam doesn’t dishearten anyone to make a beautiful house! Islam does inspire us to have a happy family and surprisingly Islam is not that much friendly with the concept of abandoning everything of life and only worshipping God in a lonely place… So, Khalil, if you say that Islam doesn’t value this like , I am afraid to say that dude you are in deep illusion!

KhaliL FarieL wrote:It was not meant to affront you. And to answer the above, you forgot I was one among you once. I was there mate, footed pretty on the same platform where you are now.

Glad to learn that it wasn’t for affronting. I did not forget that you were in the same platform. But you lost the platform, therefore, its now no use! But the most important fact, is that, as you were on the same platform , I feel more for people like you. Don’t take it otherwise my friend, its just my feeling.

KhaliL FarieL wrote:No, it is not a joke. I know your religion much better than you do. Remember this is not the first time we engage in this forum and I found you clueless on your sources whenever I quoted them.


I usually don’t participate in a long debate because of my tight time schedule that doesn’t allow me to sit down and spend a lot of hours.. If this disadvantage of me, gives you the idea that I am clueless, I would have to think twice about the intellectual credibility of your erudition.


KhaliL FarieL wrote:You make sense at last. So when are you going to publish your testimony?

My every post is a testimony of mine! :*)



Have great time, my friend.


Best wishes.

Re: Debunker Versus CharlesMartel: Quran, A Threat to NonMuslims

PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:47 am
by KhaliL
__________________________________

Hey Lincoln,

Lincoln wrote:Hi, khalil

How are you doing!! You must be doing great , I guess.


I am doing well but sorry for being late dear Lincoln, I was stuck with some internal issues. Thank you for your patience, and now let me in:


Lincoln wrote:You are most welcome and I consider your protest is a result of misunderstanding. What I tried there is to elucidate your every points! There was no dishonesty and you can be sure of that .


I understand it now; I am also following your route but when I do I am being different to you. I do not omit certain parts and quote some parts. Anyway, thank you for explaining it.

Lincoln wrote:My friend, the accusation has to be a very much lame one because as I told you I took your every point in high order to make things much clearer for everyone whoever reading this. .


All right, it is dealt above; and see; this is the problem of quoting each and each when both apply to the same matter.

Lincoln wrote:First of all, I don’t need to elude any points that you might think difficult and the simple reason is that I have been living with these. Therefore, avoidance is not a preferred technique that I follow…


Dear friend, in this post you evaded a very pertinent part of my post. It will not go unnoticed by readers. You suggested a link to islamonline.com and when I brought a junk from the website, it is convenient for you to skirt it again. I am sorry, this is not what is expected from an erudite.

Lincoln wrote:Again, I aint trying to quote you out of context. If you want to see quoting out of context, just read chronologically my posts and posts of sunshine and yeezeveee respectively specially the post of the latter one's.


Quoting one sentence from a paragraph then eluding some pertinent issues means you quote out of context. I don’t need to go to your posts to other members for the reason, I have to only deal with the post that you addressed to me. I only intrude in others' posts if there is a necessity dictates it.

Lincoln wrote:Response to the fallacy # 1 I asserted my argument on your statement of subjective and objective outlook. If we go back to the original statement of mine that gave birth of this para, you would see that I was talking about Kamaal's current comprehension of Islam and what the future might be. You then came up with the objection of subjectivity and this is what I denied simply for the fact that I was talking about possibility and thatswhy I asked Kamaal!!... Therefore, the statement that you used to refute my claim is fundamentally fallacious that annuls your claim of my fallacy..


Not a good response.., my accusation remains or you have yet to know what makes one argument objective and subjective. You were just opining on your own which is based on what you think of a point Kamaal raised. It amounts to subjective fallacy.


Lincoln wrote:First of all , allow me to ponder on the fact of your question. What types of evolving you are suggesting Khalil!? If you talk about religious evolving, I can safely say that yes, we can evolve and we do evolve.


I was suggesting the process of evolving from the rotten basics. I am sorry if my usage of the term “rotten” offends you but I am an atheist and can’t help it. But does Islam evolve from its basics? NO. So you do not evolve.

Lincoln wrote:But this evolution of faith is dependant on certain concrete facts of The Quran and those rooted facts allow us to be in firm position considering the already settled ruling.


Let me explain it: I am not against you people believing in a supreme creator and sustainer of this universe or universes. I am not against you people believing in this supreme being sending revelations to a seventh century Arab. Matters of faith do stop there.

Now, it is time to evolve. God’s word though he discharged in a certain backdrop of history is still pertinent…??? It is foolish to the most; Quran-your god sent it down is only pertinent to that certain context. Apart from that milieu it does not have any relevance, or even beyond the borders of then Hijaz and Yathrib, it was impertinent. Do I want to say how much relevance can it make in today’s world then?

But can you evolve from this basic? I mean thinking of getting rid off this shackle of orthodoxy? You can not put down your Quran. You can not put down it even though “Eye to eye, nose to nose” is what dictated in it in retribution. Many parts of Quran are extremely violent and not fit for this era per se. But do you have the audacity to erase those parts because they are no more relevant and applicable?

Lincoln wrote:Apart from those, anything that’s offer a new dimensional problem, Islam does evolve to settle those down. And you my friend is certainly very much aware of this as You had been with us for a long period of time! Since you knew this, I would like to understand and listen to your understanding of my point which I have made just now…. Evolution of a theory doesn’t require abandonment of the basic understanding!


“Ruddoohu ILa Allahi wa rasoolihee” is what I read in your Quran of the matters that emerges out later among Muslims. So, you are still not going to have any independent sense of morality on any issues that pop up as the essentiality of evolving time, but you will still revert to the obsolete stuff in quest of a solution. This is called “Qiyaz” or analogical deduction. That amounts NOT to evolving from the basic but reverting to it.

Lincoln wrote:What you had in your mind while writing about the universal consensus is undetectable simply because of the reason that it would have been a lot more assumption from me to deem what is in your mind.


Of course, and if using of the word “universal” gives you any bad taste, what about trying to get it as “widely”?


Lincoln wrote: Analyzing your statement isn’t that much intricate but its indeed surprising! You put forwarded a subjective conclusion that "Islam is evil and It’s a universal consensus".


It might be bit complex of a statement but there is not much in it as I explained it how. It is not a subjective conclusion when I say: “there is a wide-spread awareness now that Islam is an evil cult”. You may accuse me of fallacy of rgumentum ad populum, still not going to work because I can prove the cultic nature of Islam using its basic sources.

Lincoln wrote: When you are asked about the basic premise of your conclusion , You have come up with the saying that " Majority is not in favour of Islam"… Believe me, with this statement you can put forward a lot of different angle to your position which mightn’t at the end result in your desired goal. The premise of your logic , unfortunately is too much weak to get considered…


NO. Get the facts right Lincoln and do not try to poison the well. I asserted Islam is a cult. You responded a cult can not have 1.5 Billion or so adherents. Your response was the fallacy of “Argumentum ad populum”. Because you tried to prove Islam is not a cult by appealing to popularity. That does not work in a logical setting.

Lincoln wrote: This is the very subjective opinions of yours and I don’t blame you for having such an opinion. Bin Ladenism and Talibanism arent Islam! Islam itself is Islam! Millions of Muslims also hate Bin-Ladenism and Talibanism!


First of all, my hate towards Islam is strictly personal. It is the upshot of my thought processes.
Secondly: You are in no position to state Bin Ladenism or Talibanism is not Islam without proving those are NOT.
The above refutes your claim of Muslims constituting 1.5 Billion too. If you omit a Bin Laden and his active and silent devotees, if you omit a good number people that threaten the future of two or more nations of the earth now with their majority in numbers (active and passive counts) the figure you boast should come down a bit. Still if you omit a nation which is running with a deadly destructive agenda of wiping out an entire nation from the planet earth, still the number shrinks. What goddamn 1.5 billion are you claiming about then?

It will not be surprising to me if it is a fact that 1.5 billion Muslims follow 1.5 billion versions of Islam. Yup, each and every Muslim seems to be unique;

Lincoln wrote: I am afraid Khalil, you have again missed your own point by a mile! Anyone reading my post would certainly find that I didn’t reject your accusation but I tried to put it into the light of reality. Subsequently, I didn’t use population to refute your accusation rather than I elaborated the definition so that things can become much clear to all of us.,


This is dealt in above and what happened…, repetitions? You did appeal to popularity to refute a contention Islam is a cult. Period;

Lincoln wrote: I don’t know you have done this intentionally or unintentionally, though I deem that you might faced some difficulty in getting point!!


No difficulty here, I get what you want to say, but can’t help it because you make no sense.

Lincoln wrote: Lets analyze your logic here:-
You put forwarded the logic that Islam is a cult. This is a conclusive remark that needs proper premises before it to make it logical.
I responded with the argument of reality referring how many people believe in Islam and If its called cult , then there are cults all around the world.. and Islam would then be considered a big-cult!!


Very poor analysis dude. Yes, I accused Islam of being a cult, be it with a billion followers still it is a cult. I didn’t say there are not any other cults besides Islam in the world. So, though you said there are cults all around the world and Islam is a biiiiiig cult is not refuting the original contention Islam is a cult.

Lincoln wrote: I haven’t found a judicous answer from you in this respect as well. Sorry


I answered on the basis of what you put on the table. If you were judicious in another way, I would have responded likewise.

Now: whether Islam is a cult or not is a subject, I mean a good subject to debate. Unfortunately, my schedule is quite hectic now or else I would have challenged you to have a one-on-one debate on it. Anyway, we may do it later if you are willing.

Lincoln wrote: My friend, don’t forget from where we started this part! I am here responding to your statement that we Muslim are waiting for some kind of Miracle, and as I have mentioned before also, you that statement was entirely made up!


Hey… hey…. What is going on…?? I did not accuse you Muslims of waiting for a miracle, I don’t remember any of such or if I did I was being sarcastic. In this exchange, I had not had to accuse of you of waiting for a miracle, but it is a proven from your sources that many miracles are going to happen as the world closes to THE HOUR. That is another topic,

Lincoln wrote: Unadulterated here meaning the unadulterated Quran which is most important!


A text preserved for some centuries unadulterated is not a miracle. It does not have any importance in it because more texts much older than Quran is preserved unadulterated.

Lincoln wrote: There are many older ideologies existent indeed, who denies this! Now, say that there are thousands sects of Muslims, but the Quran is one! Same!


Still no big deal at all; it is from this Quran Bin Ladens and Talibans get inspired and you claimed it earlier those isms are not real Islam. If your book is goddamn confusing this much for people to blow up in crowded streets in utter confusion, If your book can be interpreted to find justification in periling innocents, then what the hell does it matter you (countless sects killing others and most often turning each other violently) having it in common? The book is the real offender my man. Scrap it please for heaven’s sake.

Lincoln wrote: You know all this stuff,don’t you? thus I don’t consider this would make any impact upon you..


Yup, it does not make a damn surprise for me because Bin Laden and you the apologist both have Quran in common.

Lincoln wrote: But the real point of yours which you have answered before, is your claim that we Muslims have been waiting for some miracle during the last 1400 years. And the reality is that we dont even think about the miracles that you deem Muslims eagerly waiting for!


I really don’t get, but if you mean what I said on 1400 years of failed history of Islam, yup, I mean it. 1400 years of utter failure proves a lot about Islam.

Lincoln wrote: Exactly. Change is ineluctable. But Having discord on some points is not a sign of change rather it’s a sign of different views and understandings! This is a blessing.I don’t take it to extreme points, I live very fine with this..


Drool…. When I said change is inevitable so Islam has lost its purity, you want to add that too in your basket… and what did you say at last? You live very fine with this..? Oh.. sorry man.. many, many did not live but had to submit their lives because of this blessing of Islam. Rashad Khalifa is well behind you for an instant reference.


Lincoln wrote: Again, my friend you have been very much subjective that doesn’t have that much importance or significance. But I will analyze your second sentence:-
You have been certain that Quran curtails the thought process which is actually not true . We think on many different topics, don’t we? For example, a doctor thinks about his/she patients.


Screw it up man…, I have seen many docs here advising their extremely depressed patients “”Ala bizikri Allahi Tat’mainnul Quloob” What fu** it is? The patient requires immediate attention because he must be preoccupied with the thoughts of suicide since he is depressed.
One model for Quran curtailing the thought processes of a doc. And even at last, instead of researching in depth, a Muslim doc will be resigning to “Allah knows best” or “Allah YashfeeK”
Get over it man, the goddamn hate manual…!


Lincoln wrote: A scientist thinks about the particular subjects he researches! A teacher thinks about his/her students and about teaching patterns. Now, though different people have different thinking , at one point they all meet in their thought process that is faith. In Islam, the Quran takes care of the faith and for that reason you are without the burden of thinking too much about faith which enables you to think more efficiently on the subjects of an individual's concern. It is certainly great if perceived properly, but my friend, I found your statement there to be a shallow one because it failed to perceive the implication of Quranic stance.
Therefore, the noble Quran doesn’t curtail our thought process, rather it facilitate our thought process.


I think I gave you a link to one of my debates in the earlier post. I do it once again:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=56

Please check it, as I do not feel like answering all these nonsense again and again. .

Lincoln wrote: No. I don’t deny it. And I thank you for you admit that Islam indeed ruled the world once for a long period of time. I would love it more, if you keep this in your mind in future too.


Keep dreaming..,

Lincoln wrote: I blame Muslims most though I find the reason to be the imperialistic nations. But its Muslim who actually brought this upon them by being largely apathetic to Islam.


Laughs… Man.. who are you trying to fool out? You mean Muslims deviated from the mainstream Islam and that is all what caused the downfall of your deadly cult? My dear friend, what caused the downfall of your prophet’s grandson Hussain? What caused twenty thousand deaths in Camel war in which Aisha one of your mothers of believers on one side and Ali the fourth Caliph was on the other side? Is it because they deviated from mainstream Islam that they slain each other? This did not happen yesterday or a few hundred years back. It happened right after your prophet, the cult leader breathed to his last.

And what was the reason for half of the rightly guided caliphs not having a peaceful death but had to submit their lives to the knives of Muslims? Oh… they were too deviating from Islam…

When are you guys going to learn..??? It is a pool of blood and the sword that your Muhammad unsheathed never rested then. Can you show me a moment in your history where you MUSLIMS did not fight each other?

Lincoln wrote: First of all, I would be delighted if you don’t abuse the name "ALLAH", if you want you may abuse me , I woudnt mind that much, but blaming and using abusive words against ALLAH hurt us a lot. I hope that you do understand what I have been talking about!


I don’t think I can do this because I am an atheist. I can do without abusing you in person, but your god and god’s man Muhammad… sorry; for obvious reasons.


Lincoln wrote: And..Indeed,Allah the Almighty is just. But the frustration that overwhelms you is the reason of not getting the point in way as it should be. Someone's power of thinking will get weakened only if he intentionally rejects the true GOD. Now, if you do this without knowing the fact, why would you fear about getting the heart sealed…


The Qur’an mentions in Surah Nisa:
"Allah is never unjust in the least degree".[Al-Qur’an 4:40]

It is further mentioned in Surah Al-Ambiya:
"We shall set up scales of justice for the day of Judgement, so that not a soul will be dealt with unjustly in the least. And if there be (no more than) the weight of a mustard seed, we will bring it (to account): and enough are we to take account".
[Al-Qur’an 21:47]

Therefore, see the Quran doesn’t refute my statement rather its strengthen my point in a greater degree.


Look mate, I am really sorry if this hurts you. I say, your Allah is quite unjust if he is omniscient. An omniscient being who knows your future means your future is predetermined. That means your fate has been written on you and from the perspective of Allah, it is brutal to the most. He is the one who created you without your consent, and he is the one who wrote your fate on you, and he is the one who is going to enjoy roasting you in his hell. What is your guilt here?

Bring a thousand or your whole of Quran and argue: God’s omniscience and human’s free will have been a puzzle that you theists could yet solve even after thousands of years. You are not alone here, all religionists who have an omniscient god and a hell to roast humans are in trial.

Let your god babble a lot about him being just, merciful; but why on the hell he keeps a hell hot as much as hot to roast his subjects? Has he no life than creating people to roast in his hell? What a goddamn sadist..???


Lincoln wrote: Here the dishonesty will get divulged my friend. You have long been claiming on the fact that Islam cant be reformed and Islam is this and that!!! But what an irony! When we propose you to take the rulings of the best Muslim scholars we have today, you tend to reject them with a lame accusation of" Apologist". Here , I am not targeting you personally, but I am targeting the general feeling of the Islam haters. When in front of you , the best Muslim scholars giving their opinion , you should have the courage to accept them as authentic! Simple and easy. The Quran is same and the teachings are same, but in different age, to meet different challenges the Quran is capable and the scholars of that concerning age are most trustworthy as long as they derive a conclusion from the Glorious Quran and the teachings of the prophet. We will also have to find out whats the majority view, and Islam goes on like this. When you avoid this very fact or when someone evades this very fact, we can get suspicious of him and his intention.. And now you can judge yourself.


Yup. I claimed and still stubborn in my contention Islam can not be reformed because you guys can not do without that seventh century hate manual. I reject your Muslim scholars on the basis of their dishonesty. Only because Islam is NOT the dominant force in the world, they are being lenient in some domains, When Islam becomes dominant the most ugly face of Islam is manfiest. We saw when Taliban established a perfect Islamic society. Do not please argue they are not true Muslims, because whatever they implemented there was Islamic and strictly Islamic. They did not allow women to go out without Mahram, (Islamic) [Sahih Bukhari can be brought upon request]

They destroyed Buddha statues (Islamic) [Muhammad did the same when he entered Mecca victorious]

They denied education to women (Islamic) [Quran plus Muhammad’s sunnah. Muhammad did not give education to any of his wives. We did not see it in your sources. Don’t bring Aisha was narrating more hadiths kinds of rubbishes. Aisha was only narrating them orally. That does not require any education.

Taliban were about to bring different dress codes for non-Muslims under their reign. (Islamic) [Omar did the same]

Screw up your apologists…, there can not be more of a hypocritical lot than them. That Dr. Jamal Badawi wrote an article on apostasy and Islam trying to prove apostates are not necessarily killed and his source was one hadith in which Muhammad expelling a Bedouin from Arabia because the latter renounced Islam. But this charlatan makes NO mention of the real Sahih Bukhari hadith, plus Abu Bakr’s one year long Riddah (apostasy) wars. I have not seen an apologist demanding for religious freedom in that Saudi Hellhole. What the hell of a reformation are you talking about?

And you are being a model for hypocrisy here because you conveniently omitted the portion I reproduced from the same source: It was how a woman miraculously becoming an adulteress just because she pours some perfume on her clothes..!!!

You are chicken to it. Convenient…!!

Lincoln wrote: Again, I am sorry! You haven’t given a cogent argument to support your conclusion of "Islam did not pave the way any civilization!!" There is no premise to support your conclusion. Islam doesn’t only mean those punishment!s you quoted. I would love to learn from you that how and when modern civilization started!! If Islam had halted progress, who would have done all those works in science and technology during 700-1400 ad! Savage Europeans?. Or forever gone Greeks?..


Again, it is not a small subject to contain in this post. If you may, please refer the link I gave you above. It discusses this matter.

I will answer the rest later, but thank you for your time. I understand you must have put some effort to produce all these.

There will be a delay before I post my response to the rest. Bear with it please.

Regards
KhaliL

Re: Debunker Versus CharlesMartel: Quran, A Threat to NonMuslims

PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:12 pm
by Chief Chingachgook
Boy oh boy ...... :coffee:
:D

Re: Debunker Versus CharlesMartel: Quran, A Threat to NonMuslims

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:07 am
by Aksel Ankersen
Lincoln wrote:Again, I am sorry! You haven’t given a cogent argument to support your conclusion of "Islam did not pave the way any civilization!!" There is no premise to support your conclusion. Islam doesn’t only mean those punishment!s you quoted. I would love to learn from you that how and when modern civilization started!! If Islam had halted progress, who would have done all those works in science and technology during 700-1400 ad! Savage Europeans?. Or forever gone Greeks?..

Many of the scientists of the "Islamic" Golden Age were of Persian (Zoroastrian) or Jewish descent, some converted to Islam under the pressures of the zhimmi system, but if Islam had not invaded their lands these men would still probably have made exceptional contributions to the advancement of science.

Take al-Khwarizmi for instance, Tabari refers to him as a Majusi i.e. a Zoroastrian, his name is also from the Zoroastrian Avesta. Khwar is the Avestan word for "glory" and Zam is the word for "earth" - i.e. Khwarizmi = "Glory of the Earth".

http://www.avesta.org/zglos.html#Glos_K

http://www.avesta.org/zglos.html#Glos_Z

Re: Debunker Versus CharlesMartel: Quran, A Threat to NonMuslims

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:17 am
by KhaliL
___________________________________

Let me wind up dear Lincoln,

Lincoln wrote:
KhaliL FarieL wrote:
I did not claim I am happier than thou art, but I don’t submit myself to the fear psychosis. Remember “what you have to fear is fear itself” not a hell which does not have a real existence. It is a crazy imagination of people of past;


Yes, indeed you did not claim. This supports the fact that believing in after-life doesn’t make a person sick and unhappy.
Now to the second point. I object your assumption that its all about fear of hell!! For me, it’s the love of God that drives me to do good and that makes me happy. Here, you see the difference lies in the perception , you perceive fear , I perceive love. So, generalizing "Hell" for all, is a serious flaw in argument!


Oh boy…,
You could not even work out the sarcasm secreted in those words.

I said I did not claim I am happier than you are. It was like saying I am not brilliant than you. When I say it loosely, will you take it in its literal sense? That would be pathetic then. It is humbleness that propels one to admit that he is not in a better psychological make up than the person he speaks to.

Now listen Lincoln, You say it is the love of god that drives you to do good things which makes you happier than me. But what does your god ask you for? Does he ask you to love him or to worship him? You can love anyone, but my question is does your god ask you for it?

Answer is NO. Your god is not one seeking love, compassion like noble feelings of human beings. He is dictating you what you should do and not to do. He is asking you to worship him or else he will put you in hell. It is not out of love one asks for obedience from his subjects. “Love” means giving without expecting anything in return. In your belief, god created and give you sustenance only for you to worship him. Quran 51:56 testifies it.

Moreover can you argue “you worship him out of love because you want to give without expecting anything” Hey…man; you worship him to get his blessings so that you will be accommodated in a paradise in your afterlife. You worship him to escape yourself from the hell he created to roast you. Are Not You? Then how can you claim you love your god? What is true love in your understanding? I am afraid you have a distorted conception of love.

Next, you asserted fear of after-life makes one (here in this case you made it subjective by asserting “I”) happy. Indeed; very true in Muslims case because you guys have brainwashed to the extent your ultimate goal have become an imaginary paradise where you will have large bosomed virgins as your wives and pearly boys as your servants.., If this is what makes you happy (“You” means Muslims in general) let me laugh at you all because you guys are pathetic to the most.

And there is a very dangerous part to this happiness you pursue. It is very destructive to you and those around because you believe all this happiness you are going to attain is in an afterlife. That makes you long for death because you reach this illusionary brothel after dying only. Besides, the fear psychosis a hell incites in you too, long for death because you are conditioned to believe your natural urges are sins. Looking at a pretty woman you meet is a sin according to your books. But it is a natural urge and one, two, three, four wives waiting you at home will not help. As Keats said “A thing of beauty is a joy forever”. You will pursue it but when your books teach you it is a sin, you will be longing to escape from this mess of life since according to your belief sins will lead you to hell which you fear most. So, what is the solution? Nothing; but end your precious life in the way of the god you try to please so that you can escape from the torturous hell. Sooner the better; You know; this is the psychology behind your brothers strapping bomb belts on their waists. Fear psychosis;

Lincoln wrote:Period. I am not surprised that you believe Islam doesn’t value human life.!!
Spoiler! :
I actually believe the complete opposite point of what you believe. Everything you do in this life is important! Every little , tiny facts are important and a true Muslim gives maximum importance on that so that he can get peace both in this world and in hereafter. You have to value this life a lot if you want to value your after life. If you value life , you wont destroy it! You will have a target and aim in life. Islam gives maximum importance on this. This is how I understand Islam and this is what the general Muslim feeling is. But yes! In comparison to the life in hereafter, this life is really a momentary, temporary one, but its this life which will determine how we would be in the after life…. So the importance of this life is very very great!! Therefore to say that Islam doesn’t give importance to this life isn’t true at all. One thing that might be acknowledged that the material aspects of life arent preferred in Islam to the extent the materialist prefers. But still in Islam there is beautiful harmony of materialism and spirituality in this life that makes Islam more appealing.. Islam doesn’t forbid its followers to gain prosperity materially, Islam doesn’t dishearten anyone to make a beautiful house! Islam does inspire us to have a happy family and surprisingly Islam is not that much friendly with the concept of abandoning everything of life and only worshipping God in a lonely place…
So, Khalil, if you say that Islam doesn’t value this like , I am afraid to say that dude you are in deep illusion!


I put a spoiler on some part of your post above because I already addressed this matter above. Besides, I would like to quote your prophet to refute your contention Islam values this life:

Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet said, "Nobody who dies and finds good from Allah (in the Hereafter) would wish to come back to this world even if he were given the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to the world and get killed again (in Allah's Cause)." Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "A single endeavor (of fighting) in Allah's Cause in the afternoon or in the forenoon is better than all the world and whatever is in it. A place in Paradise as small as the bow or lash of one of you is better than all the world and whatever is in it. And if a houri from Paradise appeared to the people of the earth, she would fill the space between Heaven and the Earth with light and pleasant scent and her head cover is better than the world and whatever is in it." [Sahih Bukhari: Book: 52, Hadith:53]

Focus on the bolded part and ask yourself does it mean valuing this precious life. Your prophet did not mean it, then how can you?

Lincoln wrote:Glad to learn that it wasn’t for affronting. I did not forget that you were in the same platform. But you lost the platform, therefore, its now no use! But the most important fact, is that, as you were on the same platform , I feel more for people like you. Don’t take it otherwise my friend, its just my feeling.


Nothing here for me to counter; but let me say, I don’t like to be liked by Muslims just because I was a Muslim in my past. I am a human being in flesh and blood. That’s it; and if you can see me as such rather than an Ex-Muslim who once was there in the same platform where you are footed now, you are welcome. Otherwise, sorry;

Lincoln wrote:I usually don’t participate in a long debate because of my tight time schedule that doesn’t allow me to sit down and spend a lot of hours.. If this disadvantage of me, gives you the idea that I am clueless, I would have to think twice about the intellectual credibility of your erudition.


Oh sorry; I am absolutely sorry for being such an arrogant idiot to say I know better than you. Forget it; it was a slip of tongue.

Lincoln wrote:My every post is a testimony of mine! :*)
Have great time, my friend.
Best wishes.


Great dear friend, you beat me with the above; when you say your every post is a testimony of yours; that half-naked Fakir who said “his life is his message” gleams upon my inner-self.
Sometimes I am forced to believe curse of humanity is not having rebirths. That Fakir never had a rebirth;

Take care,

KF

Re: Debunker Versus CharlesMartel: Quran, A Threat to NonMuslims

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:51 am
by Brendalee
Just a simple question, Lincoln: Since you are so keen on following the modern rather than the traditional scholars of Islam, perhaps you can explain whether you support the CURRENT mainstream fiqh which declares DEATH the appropriate punishment for apostasy.

Re: Debunker Versus CharlesMartel: Quran, A Threat to NonMuslims

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:49 am
by Lincoln
Aksel Ankersen wrote:
Lincoln wrote:Again, I am sorry! You haven’t given a cogent argument to support your conclusion of "Islam did not pave the way any civilization!!" There is no premise to support your conclusion. Islam doesn’t only mean those punishment!s you quoted. I would love to learn from you that how and when modern civilization started!! If Islam had halted progress, who would have done all those works in science and technology during 700-1400 ad! Savage Europeans?. Or forever gone Greeks?..

Many of the scientists of the "Islamic" Golden Age were of Persian (Zoroastrian) or Jewish descent, some converted to Islam under the pressures of the zhimmi system, but if Islam had not invaded their lands these men would still probably have made exceptional contributions to the advancement of science.

Take al-Khwarizmi for instance, Tabari refers to him as a Majusi i.e. a Zoroastrian, his name is also from the Zoroastrian Avesta. Khwar is the Avestan word for "glory" and Zam is the word for "earth" - i.e. Khwarizmi = "Glory of the Earth".

http://www.avesta.org/zglos.html#Glos_K

http://www.avesta.org/zglos.html#Glos_Z


Greetings Aksel Ankersen,

What was the past of those scientist doesnt have that much of importance here. What bears importance here is that Islam didnt create any obstacle to their achievement though Islam was in dominance at that time. And ofcourse they were Muslims.

Re: Debunker Versus CharlesMartel: Quran, A Threat to NonMuslims

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:07 am
by Lincoln
Brendalee wrote:Just a simple question, Lincoln: Since you are so keen on following the modern rather than the traditional scholars of Islam, perhaps you can explain whether you support the CURRENT mainstream fiqh which declares DEATH the appropriate punishment for apostasy.


Thank you Brendalee for being so much precise in asking the question! :)

Let me inform you that I dont support any idea that states that Apostates must be killed only for being apostates. But if there are other crimes added to apostasy such as betraying the nation or rebelling against the country, then proper action has to be taken...

Re: Debunker Versus CharlesMartel: Quran, A Threat to NonMuslims

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:12 am
by Lincoln
hi khalil,

I have been in busy schedule. I will write a response to you shortly. Thanks for your patience.

Re: Debunker Versus CharlesMartel: Quran, A Threat to NonMuslims

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:40 am
by Lincoln
Khalil Fariel wrote:I am doing well but sorry for being late dear Lincoln, I was stuck with some internal issues. Thank you for your patience, and now let me in:


Welcome again. And Hope that your all the internal problems are solved within this time. If not ,hope a happy ending.

Khalil Fariel wrote:my accusation remains or you have yet to know what makes one argument objective and subjective. You were just opining on your own which is based on what you think of a point Kamaal raised. It amounts to subjective fallacy.

Your accusation becomes invalid as I have explained in my previous response. But to make it repeated again, I shall make it more lucid. What you did there was the result of not getting the difference between " A possibility" and " A subjective conclusion".. When you have a subjective conclusion from you own opinion then it falls under the subjective fallacy but when a statement just states a possibility then its not a subjective fallacy..



Khalil Fariel wrote:I was suggesting the process of evolving from the rotten basics. I am sorry if my usage of the term “rotten” offends you but I am an atheist and can’t help it. But does Islam evolve from its basics? NO. So you do not evolve.



The rotten basics as you have now raised were initially hidden in your thought-process. As you have mentioned this now, I can go and assume what you are trying it say.
What are the basics of Islam..The very basics? As you were Muslim as per your claim! I believe you know that but those who don’t know about this , I am here informing them about the very basics of Islam..

1. Believing in ONE TRUE GOD .
And Believing in all the messengers of God, from the first Adam(Pbuh) to the very last Muhammad(Pbuh).
2. Praying to God five times a day.
3. Fasting in the month of Ramadan to feel the sufferings of the poor and to show the love towards God.
4. Paying Zakah(ofourse those who are wealthy)
5. Performing Hajj for those who are capable of.

Now, these are the very basics of Islam and any person who sticks to these basics can be called a true Muslim. Are these basics pose any threat to the modern civilization. Are they rotten?.. Is there anything that might be harmful for the people of other faith? No there is nothing. And As you were Muslim, you know that these five aspects are called FIVE PILLERS OF ISLAM. So, what rotten basics you talk that much loudly. And when we keep the basics with us, we can evolve dynamically regarding the new aspects of life that was alien to previous ages. Who doesn’t understand that.. So, we evolve by keeping our basics. Evolution of belief doesn’t mean you will have to give up your basics. (Even if you talk about the evolution of beings, you would find that even though you are multi-cellular, you have come from a unicellular being. Get the commonality of cell). The very basics of Islam are the nucleus of Islam and the surrounding gets changed according the demand and new-dimension of a particular age. But if you try to say that we should avoid the basics those I have quoted here then I say that yes! These basics are in on way can be termed as problematic let alone rotten to the age. Therefore, again, I am sorry to say that you didn’t get Islam in your days of being a Muslim that has eventually led you here.



Khalil Fariel wrote:Let me explain it: I am not against you people believing in a supreme creator and sustainer of this universe or universes. I am not against you people believing in this supreme being sending revelations to a seventh century Arab. Matters of faith do stop there.

Now, it is time to evolve. God’s word though he discharged in a certain backdrop of history is still pertinent…??? It is foolish to the most; Quran-your god sent it down is only pertinent to that certain context. Apart from that milieu it does not have any relevance, or even beyond the borders of then Hijaz and Yathrib, it was impertinent. Do I want to say how much relevance can it make in today’s world then?

But can you evolve from this basic? I mean thinking of getting rid off this shackle of orthodoxy? You can not put down your Quran. You can not put down it even though “Eye to eye, nose to nose” is what dictated in it in retribution. Many parts of Quran are extremely violent and not fit for this era per se. But do you have the audacity to erase those parts because they are no more relevant and applicable?


About the basics, I have already written some sentences above and you have already seen this, I guess.
The every violent part has its context to it and you will have to ponder on the context before attributing those verses. When the Glorious Quran says that "fight those who fights you".. You know with whom you are eligible to fight. When you see the verse "Kill them wherever you find them".. read the context, as it doesn’t refer you to kill every one rather a specific group that declared war against Islam. When you read "smite their necks", you should get the context that its an action in battle.. Therefore, there are explanation of those so called 'violent ' verses and we are providing with those explanations because we want people to live in peace and happiness. Now, if anyone wants to create a confusion in todays world then he/she can explain those things in a different way to create an altogether different picture which you might like! ..


Khalil Fariel wrote:“Ruddoohu ILa Allahi wa rasoolihee” is what I read in your Quran of the matters that emerges out later among Muslims. So, you are still not going to have any independent sense of morality on any issues that pop up as the essentiality of evolving time, but you will still revert to the obsolete stuff in quest of a solution. This is called “Qiyaz” or analogical deduction. That amounts NOT to evolving from the basic but reverting to it.

The definition and the outlook you have is different from what I have. I don’t take it as "going to the obsolete past" because everything that comes out from the past cant be termed as obsolete as long as it can survive in the modern world with sufficient vigor and as long as it can compete with any new findings of the modern age. When we talk about independent sense of morality , we should talk about the origin of morality. Islam doesn’t deter us from being as moral as anybody can be. Therefore , the morality is always high in Islam. In quest of a solution, we go to past to find any resemblance of the problem we are in, if we find any resemblance of problems, we explore that with an intention to find a modern implementation of that in a modern sense. If we don’t find any resemblance, the best of the solution is chosen to solve an impending problem. Therefore, Islam has devised an unique way that is so much unique and so much different in compare to any other ideologies which makes Islam better. So, if anyone comments superficially without going to that deep understanding , I cant do more but hope that person's insight to be more deeper ..


Khalil Fariel wrote:Of course, and if using of the word “universal” gives you any bad taste, what about trying to get it as “widely”?


No. Its not widely either. Now, there are two groups i.e the haters and the non-haters. The irony is that in every group there are Muslims as well as non-Muslims..


Khalil Fariel wrote:NO. Get the facts right Lincoln and do not try to poison the well. I asserted Islam is a cult. You responded a cult can not have 1.5 Billion or so adherents. Your response was the fallacy of “Argumentum ad populum”. Because you tried to prove Islam is not a cult by appealing to popularity. That does not work in a logical setting.


Don’t worry about the facts . they are right. What you asserted and what was my response are visible and therefore it would be better if you read the response once again. When a statement is made on a particular topic, you then don’t have any option to have an inductive conclusion of assumption.. You have again repeated the same old response of Argumentum and populum though its evident that I didnt use population or popularity to refute your claim rather I have provided with a more illustrative definition. But how you have conveniently missed this, is an wonder.. And my friend, what logical setting are you talking about !! Logic, I strictly follow, if you wish I would be delighted to show you more. But the fact here is that, don’t repeat same accusation without reading my response properly. Hope this will make you read more attentively. No offence.



Khalil Fariel wrote:First of all, my hate towards Islam is strictly personal. It is the upshot of my thought processes.
Secondly: You are in no position to state Bin Ladenism or Talibanism is not Islam without proving those are NOT.
The above refutes your claim of Muslims constituting 1.5 Billion too. If you omit a Bin Laden and his active and silent devotees, if you omit a good number people that threaten the future of two or more nations of the earth now with their majority in numbers (active and passive counts) the figure you boast should come down a bit. Still if you omit a nation which is running with a deadly destructive agenda of wiping out an entire nation from the planet earth, still the number shrinks. What goddamn 1.5 billion are you claiming about then?
It will not be surprising to me if it is a fact that 1.5 billion Muslims follow 1.5 billion versions of Islam. Yup, each and every Muslim seems to be unique;


I told you once that there are differences among Muslims but we all are believers of the Glorious Quran. What do you understand by this matters a lot here for your reasoning. I don’t call them Kafirs i.e the infidels , but I do term them as misguided. But my friend, you should go with the majority point of view, shouldn’t you? Therefore, you reasoning doesn’t refute my claim because again here you have shifted yourself to the extreme side of considering them as kafirs.. The reasoning is again too much ordinary because you have made the claim of them being non-Muslims.. So what comes out, at the end?.. Any Muslims who adopts extremism are Muslims but devoid of proper understanding because they are denying the majority opinion..

This is dealt in above and what happened…, repetitions? You did appeal to popularity to refute a contention Islam is a cult. Period;
It would be better if you read my response again!~!



Khalil Fariel wrote:Hey… hey…. What is going on…?? I did not accuse you Muslims of waiting for a miracle, I don’t remember any of such or if I did I was being sarcastic. In this exchange, I had not had to accuse of you of waiting for a miracle, but it is a proven from your sources that many miracles are going to happen as the world closes to THE HOUR. That is another topic,

What will happen just before the HOUR isn’t any miracle Muslims are waiting for. The things that will occur just before the hour are the signs of that HOUR and it doesn’t have that much of relevance to the faith in general. Therefore, Muslims arent waiting for any miracle to happen that would save them from this ongoing defeats and so on. As I have mentioned you one verse of the Glorious Quran before in my post that Allah is JUST for everyone. Doesn’t matter you are Muslims or non-Muslim. If a non-Muslim works harder than a Muslim, then the non-Muslim will get success not the Muslim because Almighty God is just. Therefore, we Muslims arent waiting for any miracle. Period.


Khalil Fariel wrote:A text preserved for some centuries unadulterated is not a miracle. It does not have any importance in it because more texts much older than Quran is preserved unadulterated.


Whether Other texts have survived the pressure of time or not is not matter. What matters to the Muslims is that the Glorious Quran has survived and didn’t get adulterated.


Khalil Fariel wrote:Still no big deal at all; it is from this Quran Bin Ladens and Talibans get inspired and you claimed it earlier those isms are not real Islam. If your book is goddamn confusing this much for people to blow up in crowded streets in utter confusion, If your book can be interpreted to find justification in periling innocents, then what the hell does it matter you (countless sects killing others and most often turning each other violently) having it in common? The book is the real offender my man. Scrap it please for heaven’s sake.

My friend! You are making too much of accusation. Let me deal with them one by one. Lets start from the beginning of the problem in the modern age. Al-qaeda and Taleban are not very old organizations that have been existence for more than say half a century. Why they hell of these organization suddenly sprang up? Whats the bloody reasons behind that? Where was Goddamn Al-Qaeda and Taliban in 70s.? Was Islam not there? Why the Goddamn Hamas is there in Gaza? Why the Goddamn Chechen rebels are in Chechniya now? Why n we don’t see them active before? Man! There are many more facts need to be analyzed before generalizing Islam and creating a direct connection between Islam and them.. Confusion is a by-product of time and the time of incessant oppression against Muslims has made some Muslims to get completely confused. And now we are experiencing the consequence of that. The Book Quran is a solace for Muslims and that’s what matter. When people are trapped in a situation , they use all types of methods to make themselves free. But Again, I don’t have any sympathy against Taliban or the a group like this one. What I do is that I want to dive deep into a problem to see what really caused the problem.. Did you forget the democratic Election In ALGERIA in 1992 , when Islamist won the election but then election result was overthrown.. This was a major reason of militant fight in Algeria.. Man! Why you guys don’t look at the problem from where it started! Islam have always been an easy target and no exception now as well.


Khalil Fariel wrote:Yup, it does not make a damn surprise for me because Bin Laden and you the apologist both have Quran in common.

And more than 98% Muslims are Muslims just like me.. Still you don’t believe that Islam is what I believe rather You try to depict Islam in other way! Isnt it surprising!

Khalil Fariel wrote:I really don’t get, but if you mean what I said on 1400 years of failed history of Islam, yup, I mean it. 1400 years of utter failure proves a lot about Islam.

Have you already forgot what you said before about Islam ruling the world. You have made statement just in your last post that Islam once ruled the world.. How can then it be a failure. Can you give a single reference about the fact that any civilization that was entirely based upon a religion ruled the world other than Islam.. As long as European were stuck to Christianity , they failed and they were in the cave of darkness. Whenever, they came out of the shackle of Christianity , they flourished. No other religion have been as successful as Islam in the history of Mankind. You differ with me but you don’t have a proof..



Khalil Fariel wrote:Screw it up man…, I have seen many docs here advising their extremely depressed patients “”Ala bizikri Allahi Tat’mainnul Quloob” What fu** it is? The patient requires immediate attention because he must be preoccupied with the thoughts of suicide since he is depressed.
One model for Quran curtailing the thought processes of a doc. And even at last, instead of researching in depth, a Muslim doc will be resigning to “Allah knows best” or “Allah YashfeeK”
Get over it man, the goddamn hate manual…!


Thank you Khalil for you insight into this matter.

I am sure that you didn’t want to say that Muslim doctors advise patients to utter some dua without prescribing them Medicines! But if you did mean that, everyone watching the show will judge you! Anywayz, influencing a patient with positive remarks is always a very good way to keep him more lively and more confident of getting rid of the disease. And a Muslim doctor after prescribing the patient if influence him/her to have faith in the Almighty God, whats the problem here my friend? Isnt it a very good practice? Ask yourself or a doctor you know. Now, I see the obvious misunderstanding you have about the Glorious Quran, thinking it to be everywhere where its not. A Muslim doctor's personal and daily life is dictated by the Quran if he/she is religious but it doesn’t create any obstacles for him/her to do any research. Rather, when a doctor doesn’t have to worry too much about his spiritual being, he would become much more able to do research!

Khalil Fariel wrote:I think I gave you a link to one of my debates in the earlier post. I do it once again:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=56


You are talking with me! And what I am explaining wont be same as anyone else. This is not said to mean that I am different from other Muslims, but the point here is that you are talking with me, therefore, discussion between you and me only matters. Others not. Therefore, you answer to my explanation is that debate! I don’t care and I don’t give much importance as well.. Anyway, as you have said, I will look through that debate..



Khalil Fariel wrote:Keep dreaming..,

I am not dreaming of anything. I talk about stark reality and its consequents and Of course I talk islam. Therefore, there is nothing to be dreamt except the fact that everyone of us should be aware of the reality and truth without getting any exaggerated thing.


Khalil Fariel wrote:Man.. who are you trying to fool out? You mean Muslims deviated from the mainstream Islam and that is all what caused the downfall of your deadly cult? My dear friend, what caused the downfall of your prophet’s grandson Hussain? What caused twenty thousand deaths in Camel war in which Aisha one of your mothers of believers on one side and Ali the fourth Caliph was on the other side? Is it because they deviated from mainstream Islam that they slain each other? This did not happen yesterday or a few hundred years back. It happened right after your prophet, the cult leader breathed to his last.


First of all, I aint going to fool anyone. By fooling someone no one cant stay for a long period of time, in other words foolish thinking and foolish ideologies are really ephemeral and those are got to perish today or tomorrow. So, I don’t fool anyone , I don’t even try to fool any one..

Now about the Siffin! This happened exactly after the death of three of the four caliphs .( The Khulafaye Rashedin). But the way, you said that it happened just after the death of the great prophet, anyone who doesn’t know about history here would think that that war was fought just after the death of the prophet. If you want me to comment on that war, I will dishearten you! The real reason behind that war was MISUNDERSATNDING. And this misunderstanding of personality can happen anytime anywhere. They weren’t the prophets, they weren’t angels, ! were they? The Glorious Quran doesn’t say that there wouldn’t be any misunderstanding! So, what do you get by this? It simply proves that misunderstanding among them was unfortunate but wasn’t a fault of Islam. But still, Islam progressed, didn’t it? After that bloody war! This is the power of Islam. I need not elaborate it , I guess you have got it!



Khalil Fariel wrote:Look mate, I am really sorry if this hurts you. I say, your Allah is quite unjust if he is omniscient. An omniscient being who knows your future means your future is predetermined. That means your fate has been written on you and from the perspective of Allah, it is brutal to the most. He is the one who created you without your consent, and he is the one who wrote your fate on you, and he is the one who is going to enjoy roasting you in his hell. What is your guilt here?

Bring a thousand or your whole of Quran and argue: God’s omniscience and human’s free will have been a puzzle that you theists could yet solve even after thousands of years. You are not alone here, all religionists who have an omniscient god and a hell to roast humans are in trial.

Let your god babble a lot about him being just, merciful; but why on the hell he keeps a hell hot as much as hot to roast his subjects? Has he no life than creating people to roast in his hell? What a goddamn sadist..???



Very good Khalil. I appreciate your understanding though I believe that there is a fundamental flaw in that understanding which has led you to think like this. Firstly .let me clarify why I used the term God is just! I used this to refer the fact that whoever works hard in a particular field will get the result irrespective of their religion and beliefs, because Allah the Almighty God is just for everyone..


Now, the Omniscient God. To me there is no puzzle. How does anyone explain the Omniscience of God. I don’t take anyone's explanation of God as granted. I have a simple explanation. The Almighty God as understood by us has created the whole universe and everything in it. Every little object , the tiniest ones are also God's creations. The matters, the anti-matters, the visible matters, the dark matters, all are the creations of God and HE knows everything and their abilities and characteristics. In that sense the Almighty God is All-knowing. We human beings live in Milky way, still we don’t have any idea about everything in Milky way , let alone anything in other galaxies. Moreover, we still don’t have elaborate idea about sea-creatures!!in our planet… Now the omniscience of God is a very special quality of God and Only God has this unique capability because of the fact that IT is God who dictates what happens in this universe.

God is omniscient because God can foretell what will happen in future. How God will become able to foretell the future! The God can foretell because It’s God who will supervise that incident and nothing can happen without God's approval. So, If God foretells anything, it will happen surely because God will let that happen as He is all-powerful. Thatswhy, Almighty God holds the unique quality of being omniscience. The problem becomes evident with this when people over emphasize this and get puzzled.



Khalil Fariel wrote:Yup. I claimed and still stubborn in my contention Islam can not be reformed because you guys can not do without that seventh century hate manual. I reject your Muslim scholars on the basis of their dishonesty. Only because Islam is NOT the dominant force in the world, they are being lenient in some domains, When Islam becomes dominant the most ugly face of Islam is manfiest. We saw when Taliban established a perfect Islamic society. Do not please argue they are not true Muslims, because whatever they implemented there was Islamic and strictly Islamic. They did not allow women to go out without Mahram, (Islamic) [Sahih Bukhari can be brought upon request]


Your obstinacy is the result of your misunderstanding of Islam. First of all, what reformation are you talking about! Reformation doesn’t mean throwing out the most sacred book of us. The most important thing here is adaptation because it best suits the topic what we are talking about. Every age is unique in its nature and characteristics, and The beauty of Islam isn’t that it can easily adapt with that age without leaving aside the core belief of Islam. The manual of Islam is not a hate manual but you can term it as a hate manual if the hatred is emanated from your heart. I don’t find it a hate manual because it doesn’t teach me to be full of hatred. The word "hatred" needs a little bit explanation here since I understand you will quote something to assert your statement! As a Muslim I definitely do not agree with anyone who believes in anything else other than Tawhid ( The unity of GOD), therefore the belief system one believes in becomes worthless to me! This very thing doesn’t mean I as a Muslim hate others. You can quote another verse of the Glorious Quran that says us not to befriend anyone of other beliefs. Here again, we will have to understand the notion and the tone of the language. Religion is altogether a spiritual matter and spiritually two different group of people having two different ideologies cant befriend each-other but yes! Friendship can occur that is ofcourse a material one. This my understanding and this is the understanding of the vast majority of Muslims.

You reject Muslim scholars because you don’t like their explanations that don't concur with your point of view. You like those terrorists who like to blow them up in the crowded street because you believe they represent Islam. And the millions of people who are Muslims and working against those terrorists do not represent Muslims!!! Isnt it quite ludicrous!! Its ludicrous to claim that one or two group of people represent Islam and the billion number is devoid of Islam! But Again, I would say that those terrorists are providing the fuels of your hatred and You wouldn’t like them to stop because that will be a serious blow to your erroneous belief..
You are accusing the Muslims of being lenient for the reason that Islam isn’t the dominant force in many parts of the world. So, does it mean that when Islam acts differently on the basis of the fact that its dominant or not dominant!! There are around 50 Muslim countries in the world and in those 50 Muslim countries, Islam is dominant, isn’t it? So, do you find the ugly face of Islam being ruthless to the people of other faith in every Muslim nations? Or you are assuming that Islam will be ugly when it will be dominant world power?.. Your accusation is vague and the reasons are very much obvious.. You need to elaborate what do you mean by ugly face of Islam because as a Muslim for these many years I haven’t found any ugly thing in Islam and here I am ready to learn. Remember one thing, everything a Muslim does need not necessarily be considered Islamic.. Another fact which is very important is that, don’t suppress the fundamental Islam and emphasize on things that doesn’t have too much importance to the overall Islamic belief.

You said that Taliban established a perfect Islamic society! What a joke! Taliban represents a region that is abysmally poor and who lead such a backward lifestyle that is a joke to the modern civilization.. Now, when you quote Taliban as perfect Muslims, you achieve two objectives. First of all, you become able to show that Muslims are very much backward and they are brutal!. Secondly, they are devoid of any blessings of modern civilization! Therefore, Taliban is a good advertisement for your guys to present it to the western neutral societies, to generalize talibans as general Muslim. In doing so, you draw a horrible image of Muslims in general which lead many neutral people believe that Muslims are just like a typical Taliban!! Taliban doesn’t represent a perfect Islamic society rather its represents backwardness and brutality and shallow mind. And Islam doesn’t approve any of these! Therefore, Taliban are not the ultimate representative of Muslims…


Khalil Fariel wrote:They destroyed Buddha statues (Islamic) [Muhammad did the same when he entered Mecca victorious]

Afghanistan and Mecca arent same. Case closed.


Khalil Fariel wrote:They denied education to women (Islamic) [Quran plus Muhammad’s sunnah. Muhammad did not give education to any of his wives. We did not see it in your sources. Don’t bring Aisha was narrating more hadiths kinds of rubbishes. Aisha was only narrating them orally. That does not require any education.



Denying education to women is never Islamic. I wonder what you learned in your Islamic days! Learning fundamental knowledge is mandatory to every Muslims whether they are males or females. No one has any right to deny education to women and Taliban did that. So, they are utterly unislamic. The analogy you used is entirely false. In that age, very few men were educated , let alone women! The great prophet never deterred his wives to get the education. If you have any source that proves my statement false, I would like to read that. If you talk about formal female education, why don’t you look back to the past when it started without accusing Islam in that case.


Khalil Fariel wrote:Taliban were about to bring different dress codes for non-Muslims under their reign. (Islamic) [Omar did the same]

Muslims wear caps as a sign of Sunnah! Do a non-Muslims wear that? See, the basic difference. Here, I aint supporting Taliban but alluding an information to show that there can have differences.. But its not mandatory.


Khalil Fariel wrote:Screw up your apologists…, there can not be more of a hypocritical lot than them. That Dr. Jamal Badawi wrote an article on apostasy and Islam trying to prove apostates are not necessarily killed and his source was one hadith in which Muhammad expelling a Bedouin from Arabia because the latter renounced Islam. But this charlatan makes NO mention of the real Sahih Bukhari hadith, plus Abu Bakr’s one year long Riddah (apostasy) wars. I have not seen an apologist demanding for religious freedom in that Saudi Hellhole. What the hell of a reformation are you talking about?



Apostates should not be killed. And you have misquoted that Hadith here! The beduin came to Muhammad(pbuh) and informed him that he(b) didn’t want to remain a Muslim. Afterwards, he left that place being a non-Muslims. He wasn’t expelled forcibly. I will not give you a surprise and I am here telling you that I don’t dissent with Mr. Badawi. Abu Bakr had to fight that battle to save the newly formed Islamic nation from getting collapsed. It was a demand of that time as those apostates were a great threat to the Islamic ummah. Abu Bakr didn’t fight them only because they left Islam but because they were the rebels. And you might know about the fate of the traitors of a nation, what happens to them even in this age.. So, you can not only attribute the reason of war is simple apostasy..
What I say is that Islam is adaptable to any age.


Khalil Fariel wrote:And you are being a model for hypocrisy here because you conveniently omitted the portion I reproduced from the same source: It was how a woman miraculously becoming an adulteress just because she pours some perfume on her clothes..!!!


Don’t shoot man! You must have known about the first hadith of Bukhari… "Every action is judged by its intention".. Now get it..


I will write a response to the other post of yours soon.. Thank you in advance for that wait.

Re: Debunker Versus CharlesMartel: Quran, A Threat to NonMuslims

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:55 pm
by Lincoln
. I object your assumption that its all about fear of hell!! For me, it’s the love of God that drives me to do good and that makes me happy. Here, you see the difference lies in the perception , you perceive fear , I perceive love. So, generalizing "Hell" for all, is a serious flaw in argument!

Khalil Fariel wrote:You could not even work out the sarcasm secreted in those words.

Well, if you pretend to have produced some sarcasm in that statement, I would say that was a trick that you have used conveniently to avoid things intentionally. I personally don’t have any problem with that…

Khalil Fariel wrote:I said I did not claim I am happier than you are. It was like saying I am not brilliant than you. When I say it loosely, will you take it in its literal sense? That would be pathetic then. It is humbleness that propels one to admit that he is not in a better psychological make up than the person he speaks to.


These are too much personal matters that you and I are discussing about that don't have any relevance to the points that are raised here regarding Islam and Muslims. But you missed or misquoted me implying that fact that I accused you to have said " You are happier than me". Rather, I told you that believing in after life doesn’t make anyone less happier than others who don’t believe in afterlife. In this statement, there is no implying of you rather it’s a general statement for all though unfortunately you have taken that to be personal which created this worthless stuff.

Khalil Fariel wrote:Now listen Lincoln, You say it is the love of god that drives you to do good things which makes you happier than me. But what does your god ask you for? Does he ask you to love him or to worship him? You can love anyone, but my question is does your god ask you for it?


Khalil, I have never said that I am happier than you rather I said that you can't claim I am less happier than you. You have intermingled two different matters of loving God and happier personal life which isn’t desired.. God asks you to do both that means if you love God , you will worship him as well.. Now , whats love? Love will not be always successful if someone wants love from someone else.. For example, If God had said " Love me", you would have asked the question that "Why Would God ask us to love Him?...Your next question would have been that "Does God need love from us?" so on , so forth.. I love my parents but they did never ask you to love them but still I love them more than any worldly thing. Similarly, I love God and whether HE asks me to love Him or not doesn’t have any relevance or importance to this.

Khalil Fariel wrote:Answer is NO. Your god is not one seeking love, compassion like noble feelings of human beings. He is dictating you what you should do and not to do. He is asking you to worship him or else he will put you in hell. It is not out of love one asks for obedience from his subjects. “Love” means giving without expecting anything in return. In your belief, god created and give you sustenance only for you to worship him. Quran 51:56 testifies it.


If you worship God, it will not hinder you loving Him. Rather it will strengthen love to your creator. Love and worshiping are always linked to each other. Worshipping without love doesn’t provide any spiritual relief. In a similar manner, if you love anyone intensely , you feel like worshipping.

Khalil Fariel wrote:Moreover can you argue “you worship him out of love because you want to give without expecting anything” Hey…man; you worship him to get his blessings so that you will be accommodated in a paradise in your afterlife. You worship him to escape yourself from the hell he created to roast you. Are Not You? Then how can you claim you love your god? What is true love in your understanding? I am afraid you have a distorted conception of love.


I love my God because firstly HE has sent me to this world to enjoy myself and to make myself prepared for the life of hereafter. So, I thank Him with the word Alhamdulillah.. When I utter this word of thankfulness towards God, He blesses me. I remind God while praying to Him.. As you were Muslim, you know that praying to five times to God that is Salah is a way to have spiritual meeting with God.. This is highly spiritual that makes me light and happy. In reminding God, I get blessings both in this world and hopefully in the hereafter as well.. A true Muslim doesn’t feel fear rather he feels true love for God.. You can draw an analogy of two lovers in this world ---there you would find that if one lover betrays another, the another doesn’t wait but dumps that one. God has created you and promised you an everlasting life simply because God loves you and God wants you to love him. But how will you show your love of God? Its by remembering him in your works and deeds and that’s called worshipping.. Even two mutual human lovers have to spend plenty of time together to have their affair going. Now,think about God who has created everything in this world and you show your thankfulness and love by remembering Him.. Is it illogical? The answer is obviously no.

Khalil Fariel wrote:Next, you asserted fear of after-life makes one (here in this case you made it subjective by asserting “I”) happy. Indeed; very true in Muslims case because you guys have brainwashed to the extent your ultimate goal have become an imaginary paradise where you will have large bosomed virgins as your wives and pearly boys as your servants.., If this is what makes you happy (“You” means Muslims in general) let me laugh at you all because you guys are pathetic to the most.


Yeah. I was very much subjective since I feel that though I feel that my subjective analysis isn’t always be accepted by others and I am alright with this. Regarding your statement about brainwashing, I am afraid to say that you are in a generalized fallacy.. You guys seem to think that every Muslim is somehow brainwashed by the Mullahs or by some religious authorities to behave and believe in a certain way.. But the irony is that there is too much assumption that leads to a very much false inductive conclusion that all Muslims are brain-washed. No one has ever approached me to teach Islam to brain-wash me and therefore the accusation you have thrown to me is obviously is a result of your wrong-assumption.. If you love God and show you love by remembering Him, there will be reward. But the most important reward is God's love to you. And the ultimate Goal of life is to get the chance to meet the Almighty God , in your after life. You will only get this opportunity if you enter into Paradise.. Regarding lavish life of paradise, you shouldn’t have any accusation because paradise is meant so..

Khalil Fariel wrote:And there is a very dangerous part to this happiness you pursue. It is very destructive to you and those around because you believe all this happiness you are going to attain is in an afterlife. That makes you long for death because you reach this illusionary brothel after dying only. Besides, the fear psychosis a hell incites in you too, long for death because you are conditioned to believe your natural urges are sins. Looking at a pretty woman you meet is a sin according to your books. But it is a natural urge and one, two, three, four wives waiting you at home will not help. As Keats said “A thing of beauty is a joy forever”. You will pursue it but when your books teach you it is a sin, you will be longing to escape from this mess of life since according to your belief sins will lead you to hell which you fear most. So, what is the solution? Nothing; but end your precious life in the way of the god you try to please so that you can escape from the torturous hell. Sooner the better; You know; this is the psychology behind your brothers strapping bomb belts on their waists. Fear psychosis;


I don’t pursue the happiness but I feel the happiness here in this earth by believing in the One Almighty God. This gives me a tremendous boost in my life in doing things of this worldly life. But I am afraid, you are very much wrong again to assume that we ( Muslims) believe that all the happiness lied in the after life. (This statement has some implied meaning that will include the fact that we Muslims don’t think this life can give us any happiness and this we will only long for the life in hereafter). But as I said that you are wrong in that assumption, I will also tell you that we do believe that we can have happiness in this world also. Remember, that Quranic verse that says that believing in Tawhid will give human being happiness in this world and in hereafter as well. So, your logic simply looses its validity for it having too much wrong assumptions in that which generalized many things..Its true that we believe that Paradise will be most cozy place to live and everyone will be happy there. But this belief is shared by all the other major religions also. Therefore, on that basis , you reasoning to accuse Muslim of having indifference to this world is not right. Hell is created for the sinners who does wrong deeds and they will have to face trial and punishment. I don’t find anything too much disturbing there. If you live in USA , you will have to face serious consequences of doing some terrible crimes.. So, you get the fact as Almighty God promised you eternal life in paradise, there has to be an opposite thing that will be applicable for those who betrays God.

Now, coming to the point of a pretty lady.. You can look at that pretty lady and that will not be regarded as crime as long as long you don’t look at her with the intention to have intercourse with her! You will have to make sure that you arent looking at her with burning lust! If you don’t make sure that you are doing a sin of coveting her in illicit love affair. Therefore, You will have to know how to lead you life and when you know that you don’t need to think to escape this life. You alluded Keats! Isnt it Keats who said Beauty is truth , truth beauty.. Keats was sensuous poet who loved escapism..!!

Now, the solution! The Solution is to lead our life in a way that will please God.. That is remembering Him in our deeds. If you want to read and start reading saying Bismillahir-rahmanir Rahim, the whole passage of time you have read afterwards will be counted as good deeds. This is what we need to do.. I don’t follow escapism but Keats himself was an escapist! You might be an escapist as well though that quality of you is dormant in yourself. If its otherwise, I wonder, How you feel that much attraction to escapism.. Now, to the last point, God hasn’t asked us to blow ourselves in a crowded street rather we are asked to lead our life as it is without even thinking of escapism!! The psychosis , you mentioned is nothing but what you like to use..


Khalil Fariel wrote:Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet said, "Nobody who dies and finds good from Allah (in the Hereafter) would wish to come back to this world even if he were given the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to the world and get killed again (in Allah's Cause)." Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "A single endeavor (of fighting) in Allah's Cause in the afternoon or in the forenoon is better than all the world and whatever is in it. A place in Paradise as small as the bow or lash of one of you is better than all the world and whatever is in it. And if a houri from Paradise appeared to the people of the earth, she would fill the space between Heaven and the Earth with light and pleasant scent and her head cover is better than the world and whatever is in it." [Sahih Bukhari: Book: 52, Hadith:53]

Focus on the bolded part and ask yourself does it mean valuing this precious life. Your prophet did not mean it, then how can you?


Thank you Khalil for presenting us with this. You seemingly think that this Hadith shows that Muslims don’t value this life. So, let me dive into that!.. Apparently , this Hadith is glorifying the ones who fight for Allah and those who become martyrs. Whats wrong with that. Havent you seen and read that every nation glorifies the martyrs highest even in worldly terms?. Is this wrong to glorify the martyrs of a nation that they are the best citizens because they battled and died for their country.. In every nation, they fighters and the martyrs are given highest status.. Now, does this mean that those nations don’t value the precious human life?.. This doesn’t mean that.. And everyone is aware of that. A Muslim martyr is therefore, will be glorified and this in anyway cant be used to say that Islam doesn’t value life. If you say differently, then you would have to oncur with me that no nation in this earth values human life as they glorifies the martyrs.. Therefore , my friend, this hadith doesn’t prove your case..




Have great time.

Re: Debunker Versus CharlesMartel: Quran, A Threat to NonMuslims

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:09 pm
by sunshine
Hello Lincoln,
you have already singled me out for quoting out of context. that in o.k. Not everyone is same. i want to ask you a simple question. Please ignore it if you dont want to answer.

Do you accept that according to a verse from Koran, a muslim can have sex with a slave women (that right hand possess) without marrying her??

Re: Debunker Versus CharlesMartel: Quran, A Threat to NonMuslims

PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:25 am
by Brendalee
You are saying that you disagree with current Islamic fiqh.

Fair enough.

I note that you define Muslims as those who observe the pillars of Islam. So clearly there are large numbers of MUSLIMS who do not interpret the verses you quote the same way that you do. The only conclusion one can possibly reach is that their RELIGION, as THEY interpret it, is in fact a threat to any and all non-Muslims. Islam IS therefore a threat to non-Muslims.

Re: Debunker Versus CharlesMartel: Quran, A Threat to NonMuslims

PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:32 pm
by KhaliL
__________________________

Hello Lincloln,

I think our discussion deserves to be in a separate thread as we both put much of our time and effort in it. I have answered your recent posts creating another thread in this same section. You may reach there by clicking the link below:

Lincoln Vs KhaliL <<Click Here>>

See you there,

KF

Re: Debunker Versus CharlesMartel: Quran, A Threat to NonMuslims

PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:16 am
by Agnostic Indian
Lincoln Speaketh:
In the area of family, the Prophet (SAWS) said: The best of you is the best of you to his family, and I am the best to his family.
With regards to parents, the Qur'an says: (fa la taqullahmuaa uffin wa la tanharhumaa) - say not even a word to them in contempt and don't repel them (surah al-israa verse 23).

Allah Speaketh: Quran ( 9:23, 9:24)
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... ml#009.023
"O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers."

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... ml#009.024
"Say: If your fathers and your sons and your brethren and your mates and your kinsfolk and property which you have acquired, and the slackness of trade which you fear and dwellings which you like, are dearer to you than Allah and His Messenger and striving in His way, then wait till Allah brings about His command: and Allah does not guide the transgressing people."


Winner: Allah!
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Lincoln Speaketh:
In the area of neighbours, the Prophet (SAWS) said: The angel Gabriel kept advising me about neighbours until I thought he would make him entitled to some part of the inheritance.

Allah Speaketh: Quran (5:51, 9.28)
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... ml#005.051
O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... ml#009.028
O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.


Winner: Allah!

---------------------------------------------------

Lincoln Speaketh:
In speech, the Prophet (SAWS) said: Nothing is weightier on the scales of the day of judgement than his good behaviour. Allah treats a person who is given to loose and vulgar talk with displeasure.

With regards to backbiting, the Qur'an says: ``wa la yaghtab ba'dukum ba'da ayuhibby ahadukum and ya'kula la'hma akheehi mayyitan fakarihtumuuhu''.(surah al hujuurat, verse 12) And do not backbite, would one of

you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother; you would surely hate it (so you should likewise hate backbiting).

Allah Speaketh: Quran( 5:60)
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.html#005.060
"Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? (Worse is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road. "

Crybaby Allah HIMSELF cursing on behalf of muhammad : Quran (111:) [ WTF has this RANT got to do with ALL TIMES TO COME???!!!]

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... 1.qmt.html
"The power of Abu Lahab will perish, and he will perish"

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... ml#004.047
"O ye People of the Book! believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming what was (already) with you, before We change the face and fame of some (of you) beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be carried out. "


Winner: Allah!

--------------------------------------------

Lincoln Speaketh:
In controlling one's temper, the Prophet (SAWS) says: The strong man is not the good wrestler, but the strong man is he who controls himself when he is angry.

Bukari Speaketh:
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/092.sbt.html#009.092.394
Allah's Apostle was asked about things which he disliked, and when the people asked too many questions, he became angry and said, "Ask me (any question)." A man got up and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Who is my father?" The Prophet replied, "Your father is Hudhaifa." Then another man got up and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Who is my father?" The Prophet said, "Your father is Salim, Maula Shaiba." When 'Umar saw the signs of anger on the face of Allah's Apostle, he said, "We repent to Allah."

Allah Speaketh:quran(5:101,102)
O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.

Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.


Winner: Allah
------------------------------------------

Lincoln Speaketh:
With regards to being forgiving and kind, the Prophet (SAWS), said to one of the Sahabah: ``You have two qualities which Allah (SWT) likes and loves: one is mildness and the other is toleration''.

"Say: 'O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of God: for God forgives all sins (except shirk): for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.'" (39:53)

"And it is He who accepts repentance from His servants and pardons the evil deed and knows what you do." (42:25)

"...if any of you did evil in ignorance, and thereafter repented and amended (your conduct), lo! Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (6:54)

"Forgiveness is only incumbent on Allah towards those who do evil out of ignorance and then turn quickly (in repentance) to Allah. Toward them will Allah turn in mercy; for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom." (4:17)

Allah Speaketh:Quran ( 2.216-217)
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... ml#002.216
Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

Fight even in the sacred months:
They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

Don't forgive those who do not believe in Allah
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... ml#003.085
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

Allah shows his forgiveness through jizya, beheading and enslaving too . He's just great..you know the sooras hence omitting the reference ;-)


Winner: Allah!

----------------------------------------------------

Lincoln speaketh:
Islam as a whole is a beautiful ideology with wonderful teachings.

Me speaketh:
yes of course! a beautiful ideology of breaking your oaths and lying at will.

If you can't defend your cult ..lie

if your lies are busted ..say that you don't believe in those verses.

Allah speaketh in my favor of my argument:
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... ml#016.106
Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief - save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith - but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... ml#002.225
Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... ml#066.002
Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths (in some cases): and Allah is your Protector, and He is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom.
[ The case here is about muhammad dissolving his oath to not sleep with his wives ever again !! :-)) ]


Winner: Allah



YOU LOSE BIG TIME MR LICOHN!!

ALLAH IS INCORRIGIBLE..HE DOES NOT BELIEVE WHAT YOU BELIEVE

Re: Debunker Versus CharlesMartel: Quran, A Threat to NonMuslims

PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:16 pm
by Lincoln
Greetings everyone,

I generally dont have any time to come and post here in this forum because its life that takes away a lot of moments just to lead it.

Agnostic Indian's post has dragged me here and I believe that just a few points will make things clear to everyone.
Therefore, lets see what is the point of logic of our dear AGNOSTIC INDIAN..

Agnostic Indian wrote:Lincoln Speaketh:
In the area of family, the Prophet (SAWS) said: The best of you is the best of you to his family, and I am the best to his family.
With regards to parents, the Qur'an says: (fa la taqullahmuaa uffin wa la tanharhumaa) - say not even a word to them in contempt and don't repel them (surah al-israa verse 23).
Allah Speaketh: Quran ( 9:23, 9:24)

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... ml#009.023
"O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers."

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... ml#009.024
"Say: If your fathers and your sons and your brethren and your mates and your kinsfolk and property which you have acquired, and the slackness of trade which you fear and dwellings which you like, are dearer to you than Allah and His Messenger and striving in His way, then wait till Allah brings about His command: and Allah does not guide the transgressing people."


It is evident from the quoted part above that Agnostic Indian has compared part of my post with a part of his post. But ironically , he hasnt given proper emphsis on the words that I previously posted. He termed those as my points. And its not hard to guess that he in doing so has overlooked the fact that I was just quoting Quran and the great prophet. I wasnt making up stories..

Sura Al-Israa, verse 23 says"
And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him. And that you be dutiful to your parents. If one of them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect, nor shout at them but address them in terms of honour.


As can be seen clearly from the aforementioned verse of the Holy Quran that we should become very much careful in dealing with our parents. And Islam is such an wonderful religion that it has declared this in the Holy Quran to assert this point.

Now, how come on this earth a person can accuse me of lying being in proper mental state!! And its not only sad but also true that our Dear Agnostic Indian has done exactly that in his post!!!!




Lincoln Speaketh:
In the area of neighbours, the Prophet (SAWS) said: The angel Gabriel kept advising me about neighbours until I thought he would make him entitled to some part of the inheritance.


http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... ml#005.051
O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... ml#009.028
O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.


Here, the point is how to behave with neighbours and what the great prophet said about it. Agnostic has culled verse that is completely irrelevant to the topic...



Lincoln Speaketh:
In speech, the Prophet (SAWS) said: Nothing is weightier on the scales of the day of judgement than his good behaviour. Allah treats a person who is given to loose and vulgar talk with displeasure.

With regards to backbiting, the Qur'an says: ``wa la yaghtab ba'dukum ba'da ayuhibby ahadukum and ya'kula la'hma akheehi mayyitan fakarihtumuuhu''.(surah al hujuurat, verse 12) And do not backbite, would one of

you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother; you would surely hate it (so you should likewise hate backbiting).


Allah Speaketh: Quran( 5:60)
[quote]http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.html#005.060
"Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? (Worse is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road. "



http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... 1.qmt.html
"The power of Abu Lahab will perish, and he will perish"

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... ml#004.047
"O ye People of the Book! believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming what was (already) with you, before We change the face and fame of some (of you) beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be carried out. "

Again irrelevant comparison. And its evident that I was just quoting the Glorious Quran and Agonistic clearly lacks the understanding of comparison of two facts.

Suraah Hujurat, verse 12. O you who believe! Avoid much suspicions, indeed some suspicions are sins. And spy not, neither backbite one another. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would hate it (so hate backbiting) . And fear Allah. Verily, Allah is the One Who accepts repentance, Most Merciful.




With regards to being forgiving and kind, the Prophet (SAWS), said to one of the Sahabah: ``You have two qualities which Allah (SWT) likes and loves: one is mildness and the other is toleration''.

"Say: 'O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of God: for God forgives all sins (except shirk): for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.'" (The Glorious Quran 39:53)

"And it is He who accepts repentance from His servants and pardons the evil deed and knows what you do." ( The Glorious Quran 42:25)
"...if any of you did evil in ignorance, and thereafter repented and amended (your conduct), lo! Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (The Glorious Quran 6:54)

"Forgiveness is only incumbent on Allah towards those who do evil out of ignorance and then turn quickly (in repentance) to Allah. Toward them will Allah turn in mercy; for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom." (The Glorious Quran 4:17)




Code: Select all
If you can't defend your cult ..lie


Your heart should have trembled before writing this down-right false comment. And for you as well as for everyone's sake I have highlighted the verse numbers of the Holy Quran so that you dont miss it again. I hope that in future you will never commit same mistake again and accuse others. Look at you!!!

We only depend on truth. Lying is alien to us when the topic is religion and Islam.

Islam is the ultimate truth whether you believe it or not.


Take care.
Adios.

Debunker Versus CharlesMartel Quran A Threat to NonMuslims

PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:11 am
by AlexmenCorn
LETS COMPARE..
Israelis living IN ISRAEL and Muslims invading and conquering Europe, lets see whos the threat.or the only threat
they did that hundreds of years ago before Israel existed so dont bother writing me that because Jews live in Israel MILLIONS of Muslims are invading Europe.
like you said you never met an Israeli so dont bother to judge us so quickly.
the only things you know about the Jews are hate propaganda written in stormfront.