charleslemartel wrote:I quoted one verse and you admit that you have problems with it. I would take that as your admission that this verse indeed threatens people like me, and that too only on account of my refusal to believe in Islamic fairy tales. It threatens my freedom and that is no better than any threat to my life. A Muslim, who takes his religion seriously, is likely to try his best to subdue me rightly believing that Allah himself has commanded him to do so.
There is only one point left for me in your post to address, and that is, "I think it was a tool given to Muslims "then" because everyone else used it". Are you claiming that this verse was applicable only in the times of Muhammad? I think I can establish that this verse has been followed throughout history by Muslim victors. That would mean Muslims believe this verse to be applicable for all the times.
Secondly, "since everyone was doing it" is an extremely poor excuse to be used on behalf of the creator God. He should have shown the way to avoid this evil and not sown the seeds for far too many future conflicts.
Shall we declare the debate to be over?
debunker wrote:You said: "Are you claiming that this verse was applicable only in the times of Muhammad? I think I can establish that this verse has been followed throughout history by Muslim victors. That would mean Muslims believe this verse to be applicable for all the times."
--No my claim is: as long as it is common for nations (of any age) to use conquest, then the Quran demands Muslims should use the same tool (with restrictions as I explained). As I said I don't like this. I believe strictly in self-defense only.
You said: "Secondly, "since everyone was doing it" is an extremely poor excuse to be used on behalf of the creator God. He should have shown the way to avoid this evil and not sown the seeds for far too many future conflicts."
--what way would that be? The only just way I can think of is be well prepared for an attack, but when all nations around you gain strength via this tool (conquest), standing still until these nations try to conquer you won't be a good strategy I guess.
As I said, I truly believe this tool was given for any time when nations take up conquest against other nations as way of life. I personally think this tool is obselete in this age. Because in this age nations aren't trying to conquer each other militarily any more (except for a few isolated examples.)
If you think that Islamic conquest is all what you wanted to debate me about then I guess the debate is indeed over. It's up to you.
debunker wrote:Spoiler! :
As for today, Islamic conquest should be obselete. If Muslims want to spread their religion they can do it very easily and peacefully. Religious freedom is guaranteed in all nations of today (except in some Islamic countries unfortunately). So today's Muslims (after cleaning up their act) can preach their religion all they want. But they don't! Because, they don't care for others to share their religion, they want conquest! Greed and lust for power is all what occupies the minds of Muslims these days (and throughout history, except for the brief era of "early" Islam--the first 4 Caliphs).
kamaal wrote:I was recommended FFI by a friend two-three years ago. Until then I knew Islam to be just another creed with a mammoth following and its originator a spiritualist. I was stunned when truth began to unfold and I realized that Islam is the worst catastrophe to occur since the dawn of civilization.
kamaal wrote:Ideally Islam should have been nipped in the bud like Nazism. I request the friends at FFI to let me know if any such attempts were made in the early days of Islam. It would take vast efforts to establish if the wave of Islam was ever proactively challenged because the relevant details have been twisted beyond recognition by the early and contemporary Islamists.
kamaal wrote:I have my own inferences on the “tolerant” face of Islam which figured in this debate. It is frequently argued by the Muslim apologists that the Muslim “victors” (read “raiders” because “victory” needs a “battle” first. Cite me a single instance in the bloodied history of Islam when Muslims met their adversaries squarely on the battlefield without using inconceivable deceits) spared the “invaded” (read “taken unawares”) masses only with penal levies. Please note that for the Muslims, penal levy on non-believers is a compassionate gesture.
kamaal wrote:Do I need to explain further?
Lincoln wrote:Greetings kamaal,kamaal wrote:I was recommended FFI by a friend two-three years ago. Until then I knew Islam to be just another creed with a mammoth following and its originator a spiritualist. I was stunned when truth began to unfold and I realized that Islam is the worst catastrophe to occur since the dawn of civilization.
Great that you have been recommended by a friend, but for me I found out by myself! Until then you knew Islam is a another creed but you know things arent similar as you thought before. So, what about the idea that after few years again your thinking will get changed and you will find out the Islam is the world's most beautiful religion with all the aspects of human life covered.
Lincoln wrote: You were stunned simply for the fact that you had little idea about Islam and you are more stunned because you haven’t tried to get an authentic look on Islam and its real teaching from an authentic source.
Lincoln wrote: Thus this stunning saga will continue for a good period of time and during this period you will be learning more about the negative sides of Islam from those who are the embodiment of hatred. You will get stunned more and more and your ever biggest stunning fact will be when you would find out that all the things you are learning on FFI are mere defaming lies against the Holy religion Islam….
Lincoln wrote: Oh Boy! You don’t know about history!! Why don’t you google ? You would get all the information you want!!
Lincoln wrote: And Islam unlike anyother religion in the world created a civilization , great in its magnitude , great in its achievement in the field of science and technology that paved the way of this modern civilization.
Lincoln wrote: It is Islam that made barbarian Arabs to be named as "OUR ARAB MASTERS" by " THE LEARNED EUROPEANS"..
Lincoln wrote: So. Kamaal! Were you drunk when you wrote and try to summarize that incoherent , illogical comparisons just for the sake of your inner urging and temptations to say something against Islam. Wake up, man! Life is really short. After your time is passed , none can bring it back to you.
Lincoln wrote: Man! Why don’t you take a course on History!! You have amazed me with your knowledge and I am sure you are gonna amaze many more!! Almost all the battles Muslims fought , fought being an inferior side!
Lincoln wrote: Don’t blush man! Read history! … read history of 3000 Muslims fighting against 100000 mighty Romans!!
Lincoln wrote: Read History! Not the last 100 years. Start from the beginning and find you are fooling yourself. Things will automatically get explained to you!
Take care, Buddy.
kamaal wrote:Dear LincolnI am not as incorrigible as the Koran is.Spoiler! :
Are you confident that Muslims might dump the existing Koran in the years to come and rewrite it? If it happens I certainly will be too happy to revisit Islam in its new manifestation. This is what millions like me are eager to see.
You’re not the first, and of course not the last, to discover pearls of science and technology in the Koran. Do you think all information reproduced at FFI is figments of someone’s imagination? What could have been the “authentic” source of information contained here on Islam if not Koran and the numerous hadiths? Anyone can see that those sources are duly quoted everywhere on FFI. How can I work through the pages of Bible or Torah or Upanishads to find facts on Islam? Everyone at FFI (including Muslims) is relying on the authentic Islamic relics to keep going.
Now please tell me which Muslim army had joined the allied forces to overthrow Hitler and rescue the German Jews who were facing extermination by that monster? Did Muslims ever consider the Jews to be fellow humans? Nazism was crushed by none other than the Christian Europe.
It’s no surprise that the learned Europeans’ “Our Arab masters” jibe poured music into your ears. It undeniably flows from your ridiculous belief that 3000 Muslims could fight 100000 Romans. Is this the claim to fame of Islam? If so, be happy because I can show you one “true” Muslim fighting thousands of “coward” infidels in crowded markets, metro stations, hospitals and elsewhere.
I do drink. All it needs to restrain me is my quarreling wife, not a charlatan of the yore where people hunted lizards for food. Have a nice day.
KhaliL FarieL wrote:Hello Lincoln,
KhaliL FarieL wrote:I am not speaking for Kamaal, but since we are good friends, I hope you will excuse this intrusion.
KhaliL FarieL wrote:Oh too subjective a claim dear Lincoln.., there are objective and subjective truths and the latter can be almost defined as “truth is in the eyes of the beholder” but it is not what we are going to accept.
KhaliL FarieL wrote:There is a universal consensus on some truths and Islam being an evil cult is one or prime of them.
KhaliL FarieL wrote: All those we leave for future to decide of their veracity are motile because the doors are wide opened in their cases. Let me ask is it the same with Islam? Your cult is stuck on a certain backdrop of history my man.., it is not going to bring any miraculous truth as time goes by because there is the factor of inalterable Quran and a prophet whose relevance is pertinent to the end of times. How are you going to evolve from this? After all, you guys had enough time (1400 years is a long wait) to show if there is any hidden treasures in your credo but you failed miserably. So, don’t talk sheer nonsense my mate.
KhaliL FarieL wrote:What the hell is this authentic source?
KhaliL FarieL wrote:So, you Google out and have known the entire history so far…!!! Great and thanks for explicating it.
KhaliL FarieL wrote:I am certain that you meant a joke. Or I don’t consider you brain-dead to this extent of claiming Islam built modern civilization..!!!
KhaliL FarieL wrote:It would take some of your precious time but still I think it is worthy given the magnitude of your misconceptions on Islam and scientific and cultural advancement.
KhaliL FarieL wrote:Without knowing the facts do not speak nonsense or blame other members of this forum based on your nonsensical perceptions.
KhaliL FarieL wrote:. You are living in the real world and yes, this is the only life you have so try to bear some fruit in this life. No civilized brain bothers to blaze for an after-life in this age and time. You need to wake up… mate..,
KhaliL FarieL wrote:You are absolutely clueless of the real Islam, let alone history in general still you will urge another to learn something in which you do not possess any riches at all…,
There is no universal consensus about Islam. At most you can say that there are two types of opinions about Islam: one that does not hate Islam, another that does hate Islam. You my friend fall into the second category.
If a group of 1400 million living human beings can be called a cult according to standard English definition, I don’t have any objection with that because then I would see out green planet Earth is full of so many small and big cultsthat its really wonderful.
Islam is indeed a large cult! ! What do you say?. If you use cult in a derogatory sense , you will find yourself in a downtrodden cult that loves to preach hate rather than love and reconciliation.
O ye who believe! The idolaters only are
unclean. So let them not come near the
Inviolable Place of Worship after this their
year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of
their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you
of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is
Oh Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers
and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them.
Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless
Then, when the sacred months have passed,
slay the idolaters wherever ye find them,
and take them (captive), and besiege them,
and prepare for them each ambush. But if
they repent and establish worship and pay
the poor-due, then leave their way free.
Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
The Unalterable Quran gives you supreme chance to excel in the fields of science and technology simply because of the fact that you wont have to worry about your religion and you need not edit it now and then and get spiritually vacuumed.
In the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, who created -
created man, out of a mereclot of congealed blood.
It is he who has created man from water
-- Sura 25:54
And God has created every living creature from water.
We created man from sounding clay,
from mud moulded into shape.
Your response as I assume would be about current miseries of Muslim, and the reason behind Muslims current condition is the imperialism from a section of earth. But you would love to remind you one verse of the Quran where Allah says that HE IS NEVER UNJUST TO ANYONE.
Koran 8:12) "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."
(Koran 69:30-37) "It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desires for you the hereafter and Allah is Mighty, Wise.. Now enjoy what you have won as lawful and good and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful."
The hell of authentic source is guys who pretend to know a lot of Islam and make people confused!
And the heaven of authentic source! The real authentic source here means asking a proven scholar of Islam about the rulings of Islam according to the holy Quran and sunnah. For example, people should ask the scholars of :- http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... waCounselE
Who are Muslims and bear responsibility hold the authority .
Rather than asking http://www.faithfreedom.org where instead of credible answers
we find people getting incredible lies with the misinterpretation!!
And as a result, you guys can easily make people buffoon though I understand one fact that some people here are really touched and have tremendous problem and I feel the origin of their psychological unhappiness is their dissatisfaction with faith and their inability to find serenity in it and inability to find proper explanation of their instinctive ambiguous questions about faith
I strongly believe that you are definitely learned enough to find out the differences between " paving the way of modern civilization" and "building the modern civilization". No more comments..
Its neither my perception nor my opinion. It’s the truth and it indeed does not make any sense to when you are out to prove the opposite point.
I would urge you tomeditate about your lifethough I know it going to be real tough for you because spiritually you are dying.
The difference between you and me is that "you are fallen and couldn’t resist the onslaught of negativism and lost the power to perceive the wonderfully beautiful aspects of Islam, so nothing left to you " …and… "I haven’t lost my sight"…
This earthly life is our first and last earthly life, lets use it for the development of humanity both spiritually and materially .…
sunshine wrote:but we know Islam is the religion of peace!!!! Why should people hate Islam instead they should embrace it, shouldn't they ???
sunshine wrote:which cult other than Islam slits throat, bombs public places, launches rocket towards civilians??? do u have an answer for it???
sunshine wrote:yes Koran is a ground for science and technology,
sunshine wrote:huh.. Koran claims itself clear and consistent yet it gets misinterpreted again and again??? Hypocrisy is indeed a pillar of Islam and Muslims
sunshine wrote:This is people like you don't try to reason. we all know what your cult leader said in koran " when a matter has been decided by Allah and his messenger, don't doubt it." the real psychological unhappiness is inside all zombie Muslims who are yet stuck in 7th century stupid logical thinking.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest