Debunker Versus CharlesMartel: Quran, A Threat to NonMuslims

[charleslemartel]

Hello Debunker,

As you suggested, I am opening this thread to discuss the verses in Quran which I think are threat to non Muslims like myself. To begin with, I would quote the following verse:

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

This verse seems to be exhorting the Muslims to fight me, only because I don't believe what a Muslim is supposed to believe, till I am subdued. Please explain why should I not feel threatened by this Quranic instruction to Muslims.

[debunker]

Charles, these verses are mentioning the Islamic conquest (which I already admitted I have a problem with in my original thread and debated Aksel about). I'll copy/paste:

Conquest: The rules of war of conquest in Islam are well known: First, don't start a war until you're strong enough. Second, offer the city you want to conquer a chance for peace. What are the terms of peace? Either convert or pay taxes or give up sovergnty. If they refuse, then go to war with them and engage ONLY those men who come to the battlefield. After you win the war, the people of that city shall keep their homes/lands/belongings/freedom EXCEPT they shall pay taxes until they convert.

Honestly, I struggled a lot with these rules. To me, the whole thing reeked of imperialism. But I finally came to the conclusion that 1400 years ago everyone was trying to conquer everyone else so why not give the Muslims the same tool only with restrictions? Of course, Muslims throughout history frowned on these rules of engagement (they were not violent enough to satisfy their greed). One rule in particular (keeping the lands to its owners) was challenged even in the earliest days of Islam. Muslims from the east during the rule of Abu Bakr, Omar and Othman demanded that they steal some of the lands from its owners, but the answer was always a firm NO. They, however, saw weakness in Othman (the 3rd Caliph) and revolted against him and assassinated him hoping the next Caliph (Ali) would agree to their desires of stealing the lands, but Ali's answer was still NO. This whole thing, by the way, was the seed for the first Musllim Civil War which later caused Muslims to become 3 main sects. Sunnis, Shiites and Khawarij.

Now, I wonder why do you claim that the Quran ordered Muslims to kill every non-Muslim? It did order killing those men coming to the battlefield (which I don't like at all) but they didn't kill non-combatants. How do you explain the Covenant of Omar after he conquered Jerusalem? Have you ever heard of it? Not only did he protect the Christian population, but later he even allowed the Jews to live in Jerusalem (after being banned for ages from entering the city by the Romans/Benzyntines)

"In fact, Omar allowed the Jews, formerly excluded from Jerusalem by the Christians, to return and live there, though under Muslim rule, each group lived in different quarters of the city."--Ami Isseroff.
http://www.mideastweb.org/covenantofomar.htm

Of course, as I said I didn't like conquest (despite these strict rules) because to me it seemed very much for imperialistic goals. The Romans called upon their soldiers to fight for the glory of Rome and the Quran called upon Muslims to fight for the glory of God and Americans (today) are fighting for "freedom". Different pretexts, same goal: building an empire.

To which Aksel responded and I responded back.
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1308&start=40#p18803
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1308&start=50#p18821

So yes. Islamic conquest sought to build an empire (with rules that have been broken too many times by Muslims). Yes, I don't like it and yes, I think it was a tool given to Muslims "then" because everyone else used it (although Islam's conquest rules were very liberal for that time as acknowledged by Ami Isseroff).

Next verse please (and by the way, I'll take my time to respond, and please take your time)

[charleslemartel]

I quoted one verse and you admit that you have problems with it. I would take that as your admission that this verse indeed threatens people like me, and that too only on account of my refusal to believe in Islamic fairy tales. It threatens my freedom and that is no better than any threat to my life. A Muslim, who takes his religion seriously, is likely to try his best to subdue me rightly believing that Allah himself has commanded him to do so.

There is only one point left for me in your post to address, and that is, "I think it was a tool given to Muslims "then" because everyone else used it". Are you claiming that this verse was applicable only in the times of Muhammad? I think I can establish that this verse has been followed throughout history by Muslim victors. That would mean Muslims believe this verse to be applicable for all the times.

Secondly, "since everyone was doing it" is an extremely poor excuse to be used on behalf of the creator God. He should have shown the way to avoid this evil and not sown the seeds for far too many future conflicts.

Shall we declare the debate to be over?

[debunker]

You said: "Are you claiming that this verse was applicable only in the times of Muhammad? I think I can establish that this verse has been followed throughout history by Muslim victors. That would mean Muslims believe this verse to be applicable for all the times."

--No my claim is: as long as it is common for nations (of any age) to use conquest, then the Quran demands Muslims should use the same tool (with restrictions as I explained). As I said I don't like this. I believe strictly in self-defense only.

You said: "Secondly, "since everyone was doing it" is an extremely poor excuse to be used on behalf of the creator God. He should have shown the way to avoid this evil and not sown the seeds for far too many future conflicts."

--what way would that be? The only just way I can think of is be well prepared for an attack, but when all nations around you gain strength via this tool (conquest), standing still until these nations try to conquer you won't be a good strategy I guess. As I said, I truly believe this tool was given for any time when nations take up conquest against other nations as way of life. I personally think this tool is obselete in this age. Because in this age nations aren't trying to conquer each other militarily any more (except for a few isolated examples.)

If you think that Islamic conquest is all what you wanted to debate me about then I guess the debate is indeed over. It's up to you.

[Pragmatist]

I quoted one verse and you admit that you have problems with it. I would take that as your admission that this verse indeed threatens people like me, and that too only on account of my refusal to believe in Islamic fairy tales. It threatens my freedom and that is no better than any threat to my life. A Muslim, who takes his religion seriously, is likely to try his best to subdue me rightly believing that Allah himself has commanded him to do so.

There is only one point left for me in your post to address, and that is, "I think it was a tool given to Muslims "then" because everyone else used it". Are you claiming that this verse was applicable only in the times of Muhammad? I think I can establish that this verse has been followed throughout history by Muslim victors. That would mean Muslims believe this verse to be applicable for all the times.

Secondly, "since everyone was doing it" is an extremely poor excuse to be used on behalf of the creator God. He should have shown the way to avoid this evil and not sown the seeds for far too many future conflicts.

Shall we declare the debate to be over?

LOL at least this little Mohammedan has learned enough not to get caught in the Historical Krap Kran nonsense. But as Islam was spread by the sword from its inception right up to the present day then your accusation against Islam is extremely valid Charles. In fact Mohammedans themselves split the world in to Dar al Harb and Dar al Islam proof if any were needed that Islam is CONSTANTLY at war with Kaffirs everywhere. The only ones who do not recognise it are self deluding Western Politicians and Taqqiya spouting Mohammedans bent on the 'soft jihad'.

[charleslemartel]

You said: "Are you claiming that this verse was applicable only in the times of Muhammad? I think I can establish that this verse has been followed throughout history by Muslim victors. That would mean Muslims believe this verse to be applicable for all the times."

--No my claim is: as long as it is common for nations (of any age) to use conquest, then the Quran demands Muslims should use the same tool (with restrictions as I explained). As I said I don't like this. I believe strictly in self-defense only.

It is good to know that you do not like this and believe in self defense only. However, the God of Quran is not satisfied with only self-defense. Firstly, there was no threat to Arabia, especially in the north from any outside forces. Secondly, Arabs of pre-Islamic era seem to be perfectly content without any desires of conquest. It was the command by the God of Quran which made them fan out lustily in all the directions to spread Islam at the point of sword. How many people and nations, which had no intention to fight or conquer Arabia, were massacred by this commandment of Allah?

Since the verse is clearly for the offensive, it is threat to me. You may not like it, but Muslims do and hence the threat is real.

The exhortation for Islamic conquest by Allah is no ordinary conquest; it is for establishing Islam as the only religion on earth. It means not only the loss of my political or economic freedom, but also intellectual and religious freedom.

Pre-Islamic Arabians did not conquer any nations. There were blood feuds but they never stretched beyond the borders. So, if it was common for nations to use conquest, Pre-Islamic Arabians were an exception and Allah turned them in to blood thirsty, intolerant religious bigots.

You said: "Secondly, "since everyone was doing it" is an extremely poor excuse to be used on behalf of the creator God. He should have shown the way to avoid this evil and not sown the seeds for far too many future conflicts."

--what way would that be? The only just way I can think of is be well prepared for an attack, but when all nations around you gain strength via this tool (conquest), standing still until these nations try to conquer you won't be a good strategy I guess.

As I said, I truly believe this tool was given for any time when nations take up conquest against other nations as way of life. I personally think this tool is obselete in this age. Because in this age nations aren't trying to conquer each other militarily any more (except for a few isolated examples.)

If you think that Islamic conquest is all what you wanted to debate me about then I guess the debate is indeed over. It's up to you.

As I said, the verse is not talking of a simple conquest; it threatens far more than political or economic freedom. Your belief does not matter much because Muslims do not think any verse or command in Quran is ever going to be obsolete.

Allah exhorting Arabs to go on the offensive wars means either that he favored Arabs over other people or Islam over other religions. He did not show any inclination in the peaceful doctrine of "Live and Let Live"; He is an extremely partisan God.

Islamic conquest is not what I am debating; I am debating the harm to human beings like me that Islam prescribes. You are trying to deflect it into conquests..!! So what? Killing a human being or humiliating him socially and economically just because he did not convert to a seventh century cult is also a form of conquest. This time a person is being conquered. Either way, it is abominable indeed and a god is not supposed to prescribe it.

After all, my contention remains: Islam is a threat to my life and freedom.

[debunker]

Charles,

You have just made a very strong argument. Indeed, no one wanted to conquer Arabia proper. And the Arabs conquering the Levant, Egypt and Iraq was not a survival strategy for that time.

However, I would like to make a weak argument, an assumption. Perhaps rival religions in these areas (Christianity to be specific) would have been a real impending threat in that time? I'll have to check, I'm not sure.

As for today, Islamic conquest should be obselete. If Muslims want to spread their religion they can do it very easily and peacefully. Religious freedom is guaranteed in all nations of today (except in some Islamic countries unfortunately). So today's Muslims (after cleaning up their act) can preach their religion all they want. But they don't! Because, they don't care for others to share their religion, they want conquest! Greed and lust for power is all what occupies the minds of Muslims these days (and throughout history, except for the brief era of "early" Islam--the first 4 Caliphs).

[charleslemartel]

Spoiler! :

Charles,

You have just made a very strong argument. Indeed, no one wanted to conquer Arabia proper. And the Arabs conquering the Levant, Egypt and Iraq was not a survival strategy for that time.

However, I would like to make a weak argument, an assumption. Perhaps rival religions in these areas (Christianity to be specific) would have been a real impending threat in that time? I'll have to check, I'm not sure.

As for today, Islamic conquest should be obselete. If Muslims want to spread their religion they can do it very easily and peacefully. Religious freedom is guaranteed in all nations of today (except in some Islamic countries unfortunately). So today's Muslims (after cleaning up their act) can preach their religion all they want. But they don't! Because, they don't care for others to share their religion, they want conquest! Greed and lust for power is all what occupies the minds of Muslims these days (and throughout history, except for the brief era of "early" Islam--the first 4 Caliphs).

Unfortunately, Quran being the word of Allah and for all the people for all the times, a believing Muslim will always have the urge to fight the kuffar and subdue them till they accept the religion of Allah. Existence of Dar-Ul-Kufr anywhere on earth will not let them rest in peace till they convert it in to Dar-Ul-Islam. Before Muhammad, Jews, Christians and Pagans lived in Arabia in a harmony; with the advent of a powerful Muhammad, the non Muslims became persona-non-Grata in their own lands. This history kept on repeating wherever (except for a very few lands) Islam became the dominant force. I do not see this conflict started by Allah (Muhammad) subsiding anytime. It seems Islam and any other ideology are mutually exclusive and cannot co-exist happily for ever on this tiny earth.

[kamaal]

A lot is being discussed here but my friends seem to be overlooking a vital point. It’s “Should we in the nuclear, IT and space age now, allow ourselves to be outwitted by the Bedouins of the sixth century and earlier who rode asses and mules?” Whilst continuing our tirade against Islam we should add this one too on the debate menu.

[kamaal]

I was recommended FFI by a friend two-three years ago. Until then I knew Islam to be just another creed with a mammoth following and its originator a spiritualist. I was stunned when truth began to unfold and I realized that Islam is the worst catastrophe to occur since the dawn of civilization. Ideally Islam should have been nipped in the bud like Nazism. I request the friends at FFI to let me know if any such attempts were made in the early days of Islam. It would take vast efforts to establish if the wave of Islam was ever proactively challenged because the relevant details have been twisted beyond recognition by the early and contemporary Islamists.
I have my own inferences on the “tolerant” face of Islam which figured in this debate. It is frequently argued by the Muslim apologists that the Muslim “victors” (read “raiders” because “victory” needs a “battle” first. Cite me a single instance in the bloodied history of Islam when Muslims met their adversaries squarely on the battlefield without using inconceivable deceits) spared the “invaded” (read “taken unawares”) masses only with penal levies. Please note that for the Muslims, penal levy on non-believers is a compassionate gesture.
You can discover more in this gesture of allowing freedom of faith to non Muslims. If the entire populace were converted, who do you think could have been made to pay for the Muslim raiders and their weaponry? Those Muslims were not known to be enterprising except on their pillaging missions (not battles). Even to this day Muslims are rarely seen into industry or anything creative. Jizya was a vicious ploy to condemn the diligent populace into ruthless toil and siphon off their gains (half of what they produced, to be precise) to support the Muslim marauders and their armaments.
The debater’s claim that the overwhelming Muslims were no threat to non combating civilians is a blatant travesty of the facts recorded by Muslim chroniclers themselves. Does he think that in face of the advancing Muslims the Hindu royal women in their fallen forts threw themselves into the consuming flames for the sake of fun? Islam imperils the very existence of the mankind. Its homicidal doctrines are apparently dormant yet liable to be invoked as the time and situation suit. This is an alarming truth which the non Islamic states the world over should recognize. America is spearheading the crusade against Islam which is visible in the middle-east, Afghanistan and Pakistan. This is an assault on Islam not the hapless Muslims who are the prime casualties of Islam.
Imagine what could have been the destiny of Iran had it not been subdued by Islam. Iran would have been packed with Rustoms, JRD Tatas, Manekshaws, Soli Sorabjis, Fali Narimans etc. Please also note that every single personality among those named here has or had the capability to alter the road map of an entire nation. I have pointed out only the plight of Iran. Go over to the world map and have your own conclusions.
Do I need to explain further?

[Lincoln]

Greetings kamaal,

I was recommended FFI by a friend two-three years ago. Until then I knew Islam to be just another creed with a mammoth following and its originator a spiritualist. I was stunned when truth began to unfold and I realized that Islam is the worst catastrophe to occur since the dawn of civilization.

Great that you have been recommended by a friend, but for me I found out by myself! Until then you knew Islam is a another creed but you know things arent similar as you thought before. So, what about the idea that after few years again your thinking will get changed and you will find out the Islam is the world's most beautiful religion with all the aspects of human life covered. You were stunned simply for the fact that you had little idea about Islam and you are more stunned because you haven’t tried to get an authentic look on Islam and its real teaching from an authentic source. Thus this stunning saga will continue for a good period of time and during this period you will be learning more about the negative sides of Islam from those who are the embodiment of hatred. You will get stunned more and more and your ever biggest stunning fact will be when you would find out that all the things you are learning on FFI are mere defaming lies against the Holy religion Islam…

Ideally Islam should have been nipped in the bud like Nazism. I request the friends at FFI to let me know if any such attempts were made in the early days of Islam. It would take vast efforts to establish if the wave of Islam was ever proactively challenged because the relevant details have been twisted beyond recognition by the early and contemporary Islamists.

Oh Boy! You don’t know about history!! Why don’t you google ? You would get all the information you want!! Nazism ! Ya, Its Nazism that sprang out from the Christian Europe which failed to provide basic premise to the Europeans so that they could become united!! And Islam unlike anyother religion in the world created a civilization , great in its magnitude , great in its achievement in the field of science and technology that paved the way of this modern civilization. It is Islam that made barbarian Arabs to be named as "OUR ARAB MASTERS" by " THE LEARNED EUROPEANS"..
So. Kamaal! Were you drunk when you wrote and try to summarize that incoherent , illogical comparisons just for the sake of your inner urging and temptations to say something against Islam. Wake up, man! Life is really short. After your time is passed , none can bring it back to you.

I have my own inferences on the “tolerant” face of Islam which figured in this debate. It is frequently argued by the Muslim apologists that the Muslim “victors” (read “raiders” because “victory” needs a “battle” first. Cite me a single instance in the bloodied history of Islam when Muslims met their adversaries squarely on the battlefield without using inconceivable deceits) spared the “invaded” (read “taken unawares”) masses only with penal levies. Please note that for the Muslims, penal levy on non-believers is a compassionate gesture.

Man! Why don’t you take a course on History!! You have amazed me with your knowledge and I am sure you are gonna amaze many more!! Almost all the battles Muslims fought , fought being an inferior side! Don’t blush man! Read history! … read history of 3000 Muslims fighting against 100000 mighty Romans!!

Do I need to explain further?

Read History! Not the last 100 years. Start from the beginning and find you are fooling yourself. Things will automatically get explained to you!


Take care, Buddy.

[sunshine]

Hello Lincoln,
Great preaching indeed.
you talk about history of islam how much history of mohammed have you read. if muslims were inferior in all the wars they fought (which is a blatant lie) why Koran orders mohammed to slay captives. what kind of humanity is it?
if islam is a religion of peace why allah is in favour of slavery. what about the women that right hand possesses(sex slaves). why Koran orders muslims to slay unbeliever wherever they find them.

can you deny any of these facts in Koran. How did FFI lied when these verses are inscribed your hate manual.
Boy o boy! please read the life history of your cruel profit. then come to talk about your bloody cult.

[KhaliL]

__________________________________________

Hello Lincoln,

I am not speaking for Kamaal, but since we are good friends, I hope you will excuse this intrusion.

Greetings kamaal,

I was recommended FFI by a friend two-three years ago. Until then I knew Islam to be just another creed with a mammoth following and its originator a spiritualist. I was stunned when truth began to unfold and I realized that Islam is the worst catastrophe to occur since the dawn of civilization.

Great that you have been recommended by a friend, but for me I found out by myself! Until then you knew Islam is a another creed but you know things arent similar as you thought before. So, what about the idea that after few years again your thinking will get changed and you will find out the Islam is the world's most beautiful religion with all the aspects of human life covered.

Oh too subjective a claim dear Lincoln.., there are objective and subjective truths and the latter can be almost defined as “truth is in the eyes of the beholder” but it is not what we are going to accept. There is a universal consensus on some truths and Islam being an evil cult is one or prime of them. All those we leave for future to decide of their veracity are motile because the doors are wide opened in their cases. Let me ask is it the same with Islam? Your cult is stuck on a certain backdrop of history my man.., it is not going to bring any miraculous truth as time goes by because there is the factor of inalterable Quran and a prophet whose relevance is pertinent to the end of times. How are you going to evolve from this? After all, you guys had enough time (1400 years is a long wait) to show if there is any hidden treasures in your credo but you failed miserably. So, don’t talk sheer nonsense my mate.

You were stunned simply for the fact that you had little idea about Islam and you are more stunned because you haven’t tried to get an authentic look on Islam and its real teaching from an authentic source.

You are repeating this nonsense again and again in the forum that we have to learn of your cult from an authentic source. What the hell is this authentic source? Mate, in another post I pointed out my willingness to accept your traditional scholars who have interpreted your holy book and your prophet’s Sunna to come up with authentic Tafasir and schools of thought. We are going by their interpretation and we are criticizing your Islam as viewed or submitted to us by them. Then what of an authentic source you are babbling about?

Thus this stunning saga will continue for a good period of time and during this period you will be learning more about the negative sides of Islam from those who are the embodiment of hatred. You will get stunned more and more and your ever biggest stunning fact will be when you would find out that all the things you are learning on FFI are mere defaming lies against the Holy religion Islam….

FFI is not using any sources extraneous to authentic Islam and if as you accuse FFI is defaming Islam, first of all turn towards your scholars who said unanimously “Kill the pagans wherever you find them” has abrogated all peaceful verses of Islam. There is not a stunning saga to be carried on in your Islam’s case because it is a seventh century tribal system which later earned some universality because of the valor of then Arabian nomads. How can you move along from a system which turns you backwards? Real Islam means the Islam of Muhammad and he was a product of history, to be specific seventh century Arabia. However you try to advance there is the factors of Quran and Muhammad’s prophet-hood to pull you back to seventh century. And you claim someone will be finding some marvelous truths about this already tried out failed cult if he moves ahead with it?

Oh Boy! You don’t know about history!! Why don’t you google ? You would get all the information you want!!

So, you Google out and have known the entire history so far…!!! Great and thanks for explicating it.

And Islam unlike anyother religion in the world created a civilization , great in its magnitude , great in its achievement in the field of science and technology that paved the way of this modern civilization.

I am certain that you meant a joke. Or I don’t consider you brain-dead to this extent of claiming Islam built modern civilization..!!! Is it why we see, Islamic hellholes over this planet? Islam’s civilizing process should have been more observable in Sordid Arabia because this cult sprang from there, but do you know of this Islamic hellhole my dear friend? Being on top in human rights abuse is civilization for you?

It is Islam that made barbarian Arabs to be named as "OUR ARAB MASTERS" by " THE LEARNED EUROPEANS"..

Hey man… there is a thread in this very section in which myself and an Al-Boriqee contested on this subject. It would take some of your precious time but still I think it is worthy given the magnitude of your misconceptions on Islam and scientific and cultural advancement. Click the link if you are interested in knowing what paved way to the earlier scientific advancement in Islam: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=56

Without knowing the facts do not speak nonsense or blame other members of this forum based on your nonsensical perceptions.

So. Kamaal! Were you drunk when you wrote and try to summarize that incoherent , illogical comparisons just for the sake of your inner urging and temptations to say something against Islam. Wake up, man! Life is really short. After your time is passed , none can bring it back to you.

Yaaawn… sentimental nonsense or appealing to emotions.., get over it man. You are living in the real world and yes, this is the only life you have so try to bear some fruit in this life. No civilized brain bothers to blaze for an after-life in this age and time. You need to wake up… mate..,

Man! Why don’t you take a course on History!! You have amazed me with your knowledge and I am sure you are gonna amaze many more!! Almost all the battles Muslims fought , fought being an inferior side!

Yup; right here because the motivation for those seventh century barbarians to march on had been a “win-win” situation in all battles. If the battle is won, booties along with pretty women are theirs. If they fail, more riches and Houris are waiting for them in heavens. If conditioned in such a way, one man will go on daring to take the whole world. Do not forget what motivates your brothers to blow up in crowded streets and schools..!!1

Don’t blush man! Read history! … read history of 3000 Muslims fighting against 100000 mighty Romans!!

So what? Your god offered rewards in both cases in a war. We know there cannot be a runner-up in war but in Islam war means a victory game for Muslims even if the victory favored the other side. I said it above of the motivation that led your ancestors to fight the mighty empires.

Read History! Not the last 100 years. Start from the beginning and find you are fooling yourself. Things will automatically get explained to you!
Take care, Buddy.

Oh boy… read something about your cult you too. You are absolutely clueless of the real Islam, let alone history in general still you will urge another to learn something in which you do not possess any riches at all…,

Best of luck my mate, but don’t try to be so unattractive posting stupidity in this forum,

KF

[kamaal]

Dear Lincoln,
Why hang around for another few years for an untarnished perception of Islam when it can be sorted out here? You are within your rights to presume that I may have a second opinion on this holiest of religions should contradictory proof come to light. I am not as incorrigible as the Koran is. Are you confident that Muslims might dump the existing Koran in the years to come and rewrite it? If it happens I certainly will be too happy to revisit Islam in its new manifestation. This is what millions like me are eager to see.
You’re not the first, and of course not the last, to discover pearls of science and technology in the Koran. Do you think all information reproduced at FFI is figments of someone’s imagination? What could have been the “authentic” source of information contained here on Islam if not Koran and the numerous hadiths? Anyone can see that those sources are duly quoted everywhere on FFI. How can I work through the pages of Bible or Torah or Upanishads to find facts on Islam? Everyone at FFI (including Muslims) is relying on the authentic Islamic relics to keep going.
Now please tell me which Muslim army had joined the allied forces to overthrow Hitler and rescue the German Jews who were facing extermination by that monster? Did Muslims ever consider the Jews to be fellow humans? Nazism was crushed by none other than the Christian Europe.
It’s no surprise that the learned Europeans’ “Our Arab masters” jibe poured music into your ears. It undeniably flows from your ridiculous belief that 3000 Muslims could fight 100000 Romans. Is this the claim to fame of Islam? If so, be happy because I can show you one “true” Muslim fighting thousands of “coward” infidels in crowded markets, metro stations, hospitals and elsewhere.
I do drink. All it needs to restrain me is my quarreling wife, not a charlatan of the yore where people hunted lizards for food. Have a nice day.

[sunshine]

Science in Koran

Of course Koran does have science,
Einstein, Edison, Newton, all find their innovation in Koran. They just forgot give it proper credit.
Infact alfred Nobel was inspired so much by the Jihadi verses of Koran that he invented Dynamite for the future use of Muslims

[charleslemartel]

Dear Lincoln

Spoiler! :

,
Why hang around for another few years for an untarnished perception of Islam when it can be sorted out here? You are within your rights to presume that I may have a second opinion on this holiest of religions should contradictory proof come to light.

I am not as incorrigible as the Koran is.

You are great, man. I think FFI is going to be a bit richer by your wit.

Are you confident that Muslims might dump the existing Koran in the years to come and rewrite it? If it happens I certainly will be too happy to revisit Islam in its new manifestation. This is what millions like me are eager to see.

I don't know about millions, but I would be happy to join you

You’re not the first, and of course not the last, to discover pearls of science and technology in the Koran. Do you think all information reproduced at FFI is figments of someone’s imagination? What could have been the “authentic” source of information contained here on Islam if not Koran and the numerous hadiths? Anyone can see that those sources are duly quoted everywhere on FFI. How can I work through the pages of Bible or Torah or Upanishads to find facts on Islam? Everyone at FFI (including Muslims) is relying on the authentic Islamic relics to keep going.
Now please tell me which Muslim army had joined the allied forces to overthrow Hitler and rescue the German Jews who were facing extermination by that monster? Did Muslims ever consider the Jews to be fellow humans? Nazism was crushed by none other than the Christian Europe.
It’s no surprise that the learned Europeans’ “Our Arab masters” jibe poured music into your ears. It undeniably flows from your ridiculous belief that 3000 Muslims could fight 100000 Romans. Is this the claim to fame of Islam? If so, be happy because I can show you one “true” Muslim fighting thousands of “coward” infidels in crowded markets, metro stations, hospitals and elsewhere.
I do drink. All it needs to restrain me is my quarreling wife, not a charlatan of the yore where people hunted lizards for food. Have a nice day.

[kamaal]

Thank you charlesmartel and sunshine. More than wits, it’s my anguish and disappointment at play against a seventh century unread, savage Arab who is holding the whole world to ransom even after fourteen centuries of his demise. It’s shame on humanity.
Why care too much for Muslim sentiments when humanity has already suffered to the highest degree because of Islam? In fact enough has been discussed about this monster called Muhammad. Focus should now shift to a direct action against Islam and demolition of its symbols everywhere. If Muslims are hurt let them be so. Hasn’t the humanity been hurt colossally by Islam?
It’s urgent. Powerful nations should demonstrate solidarity similar to what the world witnessed seven decades ago against Nazism. I am not advocating any injury to Muslims but I certainly am for artillery shelling of the epitomes of incredible betrayals and brutalities. This alone can push Muslims to revisit the “holiest of religions” with an open mind.

[Lincoln]

Hello Lincoln,

Hi Khalil.

I am not speaking for Kamaal, but since we are good friends, I hope you will excuse this intrusion.

You are excused without any charge or even without even any attempted charge!!!

Oh too subjective a claim dear Lincoln.., there are objective and subjective truths and the latter can be almost defined as “truth is in the eyes of the beholder” but it is not what we are going to accept.

Its neither subjective nor objective. It lies in between these two extremes as I was talking about the possibility of him getting changed. And obviously we can talk a lot about the possibility but in the end we might get stuck again the middle of that two extremes.

There is a universal consensus on some truths and Islam being an evil cult is one or prime of them.

There is no universal consensus about Islam. At most you can say that there are two types of opinions about Islam: one that does not hate Islam, another that does hate Islam. You my friend fall into the second category.

All those we leave for future to decide of their veracity are motile because the doors are wide opened in their cases. Let me ask is it the same with Islam? Your cult is stuck on a certain backdrop of history my man.., it is not going to bring any miraculous truth as time goes by because there is the factor of inalterable Quran and a prophet whose relevance is pertinent to the end of times. How are you going to evolve from this? After all, you guys had enough time (1400 years is a long wait) to show if there is any hidden treasures in your credo but you failed miserably. So, don’t talk sheer nonsense my mate.

If a group of 1400 million living human beings can be called a cult according to standard English definition, I don’t have any objection with that because then I would see out green planet Earth is full of so many small and big cults that its really wonderful. Islam is indeed a large cult! ! What do you say?. If you use cult in a derogatory sense , you will find yourself in a downtrodden cult that loves to preach hate rather than love and reconciliation.

What Miraculous points , you are trying to refer my erudite friend! In your Islamic days , You might have thought of some miracle but for me thing is a little different. Islam itself is the truth as it propagates the Unity of God, and being unadulterated during these 1400 years is the Miracle.

The Unalterable Quran gives you supreme chance to excel in the fields of science and technology simply because of the fact that you wont have to worry about your religion and you need not edit it now and then and get spiritually vacuumed. Your response as I assume would be about current miseries of Muslim, and the reason behind Muslims current condition is the imperialism from a section of earth. But you would love to remind you one verse of the Quran where Allah says that HE IS NEVER UNJUST TO ANYONE. Therefore, if Muslims work for the development of their society , they will get developed . If they don’t strive, they wont get developed.


What hidden treasures are you talking about Khalil!! There is no hidden treasure and we don’t look for any hidden treasures as well. When you talk with this tone , my friend you do confuse a lot of readers and the most who get confused are those who knows nothing about Islam and trust your erudite style of speech!

What the hell is this authentic source?

The hell of authentic source is guys who pretend to know a lot of Islam and make people confused!
And the heaven of authentic source! The real authentic source here means asking a proven scholar of Islam about the rulings of Islam according to the holy Quran and sunnah. For example, people should ask the scholars of :- http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... waCounselE
Who are Muslims and bear responsibility hold the authority .
Rather than asking www.faithfreedom.org where instead of credible answers , we find people getting incredible lies with the misinterpretation!! And as a result, you guys can easily make people buffoon though I understand one fact that some people here are really touched and have tremendous problem and I feel the origin of their psychological unhappiness is their dissatisfaction with faith and their inability to find serenity in it and inability to find proper explanation of their instinctive ambiguous questions about faith.

So, you Google out and have known the entire history so far…!!! Great and thanks for explicating it.

Your intentional sarcasm is not appreciated!

I am certain that you meant a joke. Or I don’t consider you brain-dead to this extent of claiming Islam built modern civilization..!!!

I strongly believe that you are definitely learned enough to find out the differences between " paving the way of modern civilization" and "building the modern civilization". No more comments..

It would take some of your precious time but still I think it is worthy given the magnitude of your misconceptions on Islam and scientific and cultural advancement.

Everyone's time is very precious in this modern world! Your statement is quite baffling not in the sense that you have struck at my head but in the sense that what you have just said, its actually the other way around….

Without knowing the facts do not speak nonsense or blame other members of this forum based on your nonsensical perceptions.

Its neither my perception nor my opinion. It’s the truth and it indeed does not make any sense to when you are out to prove the opposite point.

. You are living in the real world and yes, this is the only life you have so try to bear some fruit in this life. No civilized brain bothers to blaze for an after-life in this age and time. You need to wake up… mate..,

Thanks dude. I am perfectly fine with this world and with my thinking as well. You cant say that you are more happy than me because you don’t believe in the after-life. But frankly speaking , believing in the after-life has made my life in this world more enjoyable and more significant and I value this life really a lot because of my Islamic teachings and you know, for that I cant destroy my life like a person who doesn’t believe in after life. The logic can come from the opposite way too. As you don’t believe in these, I would urge you to meditate about your life though I know it going to be real tough for you because spiritually you are dying. This comment is not for offending you but a sympathetic comment!! Awake!! Buddy
.

You are absolutely clueless of the real Islam, let alone history in general still you will urge another to learn something in which you do not possess any riches at all…,

Well, thanks for insulting! I am clueless about my religion which I practice and you are full of clues of my religion! Sounds great, isn’t it!! …The logic of general understanding will go against your perception and that might have a conclusion for you that is "Pseudo scholar"… But one thing for sure, I do feel for your fall and for your catastrophic degeneration. I am fully aware of your thinking that you might say that I know nothing of my religion, and my friend, it’s the joke of the age to say that I don’t know my religion!.

The difference between you and me is that "you are fallen and couldn’t resist the onslaught of negativism and lost the power to perceive the wonderfully beautiful aspects of Islam, so nothing left to you " …and… "I haven’t lost my sight"…
This earthly life is our first and last earthly life, lets use it for the development of humanity both spiritually and materially .…

Thanks a lot for your time. You will remain a good friend of mine.


Best wishes.

[sunshine]

There is no universal consensus about Islam. At most you can say that there are two types of opinions about Islam: one that does not hate Islam, another that does hate Islam. You my friend fall into the second category.

but we know Islam is the religion of peace!!!! Why should people hate Islam instead they should embrace it, shouldn't they ???

If a group of 1400 million living human beings can be called a cult according to standard English definition, I don’t have any objection with that because then I would see out green planet Earth is full of so many small and big cultsthat its really wonderful.

which cult other than Islam slits throat, bombs public places, launches rocket towards civilians??? do u have an answer for it???

Islam is indeed a large cult! ! What do you say?. If you use cult in a derogatory sense , you will find yourself in a downtrodden cult that loves to preach hate rather than love and reconciliation.

So islam preaches love,, what about these suras:

IX/28:
O ye who believe! The idolaters only are
unclean. So let them not come near the
Inviolable Place of Worship after this their
year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of
their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you
of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is
Knower, Wise.

IX/73:
Oh Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers
and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them.
Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless
journey's-end.

IX/5:
Then, when the sacred months have passed,
slay the idolaters wherever ye find them,
and take them (captive), and besiege them,
and prepare for them each ambush. But if
they repent and establish worship and pay
the poor-due, then leave their way free.
Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The Unalterable Quran gives you supreme chance to excel in the fields of science and technology simply because of the fact that you wont have to worry about your religion and you need not edit it now and then and get spiritually vacuumed.

yes Koran is a ground for science and technology, here is one example:

Proclaim!
In the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, who created -
created man, out of a mereclot of congealed blood.
-- 96:1-2

It is he who has created man from water
-- Sura 25:54

And God has created every living creature from water.
-- 24:45

We created man from sounding clay,
from mud moulded into shape.
-- 15:26

What a wonderful display of science from the supreme God.

Your response as I assume would be about current miseries of Muslim, and the reason behind Muslims current condition is the imperialism from a section of earth. But you would love to remind you one verse of the Quran where Allah says that HE IS NEVER UNJUST TO ANYONE.

how pity you didnt even know what ur cruel allah says. please look at these barbaric suras

Koran 8:12) "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."

(Koran 69:30-37) "It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desires for you the hereafter and Allah is Mighty, Wise.. Now enjoy what you have won as lawful and good and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful."

The hell of authentic source is guys who pretend to know a lot of Islam and make people confused!
And the heaven of authentic source! The real authentic source here means asking a proven scholar of Islam about the rulings of Islam according to the holy Quran and sunnah. For example, people should ask the scholars of :- http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... waCounselE
Who are Muslims and bear responsibility hold the authority .
Rather than asking http://www.faithfreedom.org where instead of credible answers

Anyone who shows the ugly hatread of koran is biased and those interpret it in a islamic way is always right, isnt it. Muslim logic really SUCKS.

we find people getting incredible lies with the misinterpretation!!

huh.. Koran claims itself clear and consistent yet it gets misinterpreted again and again??? Hypocrisy is indeed a pillar of Islam and Muslims

And as a result, you guys can easily make people buffoon though I understand one fact that some people here are really touched and have tremendous problem and I feel the origin of their psychological unhappiness is their dissatisfaction with faith and their inability to find serenity in it and inability to find proper explanation of their instinctive ambiguous questions about faith

This is people like you don't try to reason. we all know what your cult leader said in koran " when a matter has been decided by Allah and his messenger, don't doubt it." the real psychological unhappiness is inside all zombie Muslims who are yet stuck in 7th century stupid logical thinking.

I strongly believe that you are definitely learned enough to find out the differences between " paving the way of modern civilization" and "building the modern civilization". No more comments..

yes they not only paved the way but destroyed great civilization like Persia, phonecia, Sumeria.

Its neither my perception nor my opinion. It’s the truth and it indeed does not make any sense to when you are out to prove the opposite point.
I would urge you tomeditate about your lifethough I know it going to be real tough for you because spiritually you are dying.

Meditate with the wet dream of 72 big breasted virgins i guess

The difference between you and me is that "you are fallen and couldn’t resist the onslaught of negativism and lost the power to perceive the wonderfully beautiful aspects of Islam, so nothing left to you " …and… "I haven’t lost my sight"…

show us WHAT ARE THE BEAUTIFUL ASPECTS OF ISLAM WITHOUT BEATING AROUND THE BUSH

This earthly life is our first and last earthly life, lets use it for the development of humanity both spiritually and materially .…

can u tell us the ways to achive spirituality in Islam, can i attain spirituality if i wear a bomb in my chest and blow up some buses ??? please tell me the answer, i cant wait to meet 72 virgins anymore.

[Lincoln]

but we know Islam is the religion of peace!!!! Why should people hate Islam instead they should embrace it, shouldn't they ???

Islam is the "religion of peace" or "religion of war" , is debatable but the point here is that there is no universal consensus! Hating a religion or an ideology isn’t alien to human nature, many hates an ideology only for the fact that it goes against their understanding or against their traditional belief. An ideology need not necessarily be that bad to get abhorred by a group of people, the only thing required is competition and rivalry, that’s all. You hate it.

which cult other than Islam slits throat, bombs public places, launches rocket towards civilians??? do u have an answer for it???

I have answers for every little, fragmented questions that you might have in regarding Islam. And regarding your question here, your generalization fallacy in asking the question puts you into the category of those people who have hard time distinguish majority of Muslims and some misguided emotional oppressed Muslim minds who might have become bombers even if they werent Muslims.! For example, a palestinian suicide bomber becomes a suicide bomber not because he/she is Muslim, but because they are oppressed! The similarity here is with the Tamil Tigers of Srilanka who are also respnosible for suicide bombing. But guess what!! they arent Muslim,they say they are fighting for freedom. Some Muslim youth in general have become quite antagonistic with the west because of the reason that Muslim believes in Brotherhood , so when Muslims are attacked and oppressed in one corner of the world, their heart also get broken!! So, some of them ,out of sheer anger and anguish become suicide bomber! But the point of the points is that ISLAM DOESNT ALLOW THIS THAT KILLS INNOCENTS INDIVIDUALS. So, there is no connection between Islam and suicide bomber!! Take for example, the Tamil Tigers!

yes Koran is a ground for science and technology,

You obviously haven’t got the point that I made in my post. I asserted the fact that the Unalterable Quran provides you the opportunity to research vigorously in the field of science and technology because of the fact that a researcher needs not worry about how to lead his life as the essential codes and conducts are certain and wont get changed!! The Quran provides tremendous mental strength and it is the ground that gives stability!

huh.. Koran claims itself clear and consistent yet it gets misinterpreted again and again??? Hypocrisy is indeed a pillar of Islam and Muslims

"Clear and consistent" doesn’t mean that you cant go to interpret differently. You might have forgot that majority of the people of the world don’t have any idea of Arabic language, therefore, the chance of the Quran getting misinterpreted is much higher! So, your exclaimed question has concrete answer. "Hypocrisy" is the term used against Muslims though its Muslims who hate hypocrisy most. And again you don’t believe this! Why don’t you ask a scholar to verify this and the site name , I have given above ….

This is people like you don't try to reason. we all know what your cult leader said in koran " when a matter has been decided by Allah and his messenger, don't doubt it." the real psychological unhappiness is inside all zombie Muslims who are yet stuck in 7th century stupid logical thinking.

Limitation is again a natural phenomenon to human beings and for that reason they cant use their brain not even to an extent of 30%. So, I acknowledge limitations of human beings in general but I don’t appreciate your blind attack on Muslims in general. Reasoning is always welcomed by us though you might not agree with me and the base of your naked attack is your misconception of Muslims. The Noble Quran is a theological book that do cover a lot important aspects of life but that doesn’t mean Muslims don’t know how to talk about other subjects.

"Logic and reason" is progressive human understanding that may differ from person to person and being a Muslim and following the Quran doesn’t mean you live in 7th century. This utter inability to understand this very simple fact has made many people making all the nonsensical argument against Islam and Muslim.
The Psychological unhappiness, is a disease to the people who are shaken for their faith and they sometimes try to forget and denounce faith but its actually them who suffer from this terrible psychological problem. Islam provides a unique shelter against this kind of psychological problems as long as you understand Tawheed, the Unity of God in perfect sense in the light of the Quran and proper logic and reason.

________________________________________________________

In the area of family, the Prophet (SAWS) said: The best of you is the best of you to his family, and I am the best to his family.

In the area of neighbours, the Prophet (SAWS) said: The angel Gabriel kept advising me about neighbours until I thought he would make him entitled to some part of the inheritance.

In speech, the Prophet (SAWS) said: Nothing is weightier on the scales of the day of judgement than his good behaviour. Allah treats a person who is given to loose and vulgar talk with displeasure.

With regards to backbiting, the Qur'an says: ``wa la yaghtab ba'dukum ba'da ayuhibby ahadukum and ya'kula la'hma akheehi mayyitan fakarihtumuuhu''.(surah al hujuurat, verse 12) And do not backbite, would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother; you would surely hate it (so you should likewise hate backbiting).


With regards to parents, the Qur'an says: (fa la taqullahmuaa uffin wa la tanharhumaa) - say not even a word to them in contempt and don't repel them (surah al-israa verse 23).


In controlling one's temper, the Prophet (SAWS) says: The strong man is not the good wrestler, but the strong man is he who controls himself when he is angry.

With regards to being forgiving and kind, the Prophet (SAWS), said to one of the Sahabah: ``You have two qualities which Allah (SWT) likes and loves: one is mildness and the other is toleration''.



"Say: 'O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of God: for God forgives all sins (except shirk): for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.'" (39:53)

"And it is He who accepts repentance from His servants and pardons the evil deed and knows what you do." (42:25)

"...if any of you did evil in ignorance, and thereafter repented and amended (your conduct), lo! Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (6:54)

"Forgiveness is only incumbent on Allah towards those who do evil out of ignorance and then turn quickly (in repentance) to Allah. Toward them will Allah turn in mercy; for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom." (4:17)




Hadith Qudsi: Allah, the Almighty, has said:

O Son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O Son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O Son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins as great as the earth, and were you then to face Me ascribing no partners to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.




Islam as a whole is a beautiful ideology with wonderful teachings.



Best Wishes.