A challenge to Ghaith on did muslims or qurysh draw first blood

[Jonah]

Not active so often kaimana. Disapointment i was looking forward to have some good active debates.

[kaimana1]

The Alawis might not have existed at that time but the Quran is universal and timeless.

Univeral to arabia at that time perhaps.

I honestly dont see why they translated it as Besides. Min Dooni makes much more sense as it adresses both those who say Jesus is god and those who say Mary is god

because the translators knew it was referring to christians Ghaith. those who say 1 jesus 2 mary as gods besides 3 allah -remember those that say allah is third of three? It's the same.

[kaimana1]

Not active so often kaimana. Disapointment i was looking forward to have some good active debates.

No my dear yos- my work load and personal life has been busy lately- in fact i probably wont be able to respond again to you for the next three days.

[Jonah]

The Alawis might not have existed at that time but the Quran is universal and timeless.

Univeral to arabia at that time perhaps.

I honestly dont see why they translated it as Besides. Min Dooni makes much more sense as it adresses both those who say Jesus is god and those who say Mary is god

because the translators knew it was referring to christians Ghaith. those who say 1 jesus 2 mary as gods besides 3 allah -remember those that say allah is third of three? It's the same.

Kai by me saying universal i mean timeless aswell. There is a problem with the trinty because in the bible jesus said Alpha and the Omega so the trinty doesnt really have a Nr 1 nr 2 nr 3.

The translaters might have tought it was reffering to christians, but they where wrong

Now you know quiet alot about Islam Kai. But do you know just as much about your own religion Mithraism? I know your an agnostic but why not an Agnostic Muslim?

[Ghaith]

Just posted to say got by account back.

[pr126]

Just posted to say got my account back.

Congratulations.

[Ghaith]

Just posted to say got my account back.

Congratulations.

Thank you make sure you dont ban me for no reason this time

[kaimana1]

Okay,Ghaith now i have some time to reply to some of your posts

Kai by me saying universal i mean timeless aswell. There is a problem with the trinty because in the bible jesus said Alpha and the Omega so the trinty doesnt really have a Nr 1 nr 2 nr 3.

I am very familiar with the alpha and the omega passages,especially- rev 22;12 or 13 i believe- it's been a while- but that's not the point yos- im not defending the trinity per se- im merely pointing out the error in the quran regarding the trinity- all mo had to do was say jesus said "do not worship me and the holy spirit as gods with allah and that problem would not have existed.

The translaters might have tought it was reffering to christians, but they where wrong :

alright Ghaith.

Now you know quiet alot about Islam Kai

I have studied it in depth off and on over the last 23 years
.

But do you know just as much about your own religion Mithraism?

Am i smelling ZEITGEIST?!?

I know your an agnostic but why not an Agnostic Muslim

You know how i feel about islam by now, so why would i be an agnostic muslim

Anyways lets start off with your mithraism allegations.

I take it you are going to say something like christians worship the sun jesus is sun god right? just to let you know first of all... son and sun in greek are entirely different words they dont sound alike like they do in english. Mithra wasnt born on december 25th- and mithra wasnt ressurected - also, he only had 4 disciples not twelve like zeitgeist made it out to be.

On to you Ghaith.

[kaimana1]

Just posted to say got my account back.

Congratulations.

Hi pr26 was Ghaith banned like he insists?

[Ghaith]

Ive taken all our debates trough the forum and put them here so we dont bother other people. I hope you dont mind.

he error in the quran regarding the trinity

There is no error Kai, i already showed you cannot use the third of three. And ive showed you the translators tought it was talking about christian trinty and the translators them self tought the trinty was father mother son so they made an error. You should be fair and make an arabic speaker read it to you.

I have studied it in depth off and on over the last 23 years

Hmm

Am i smelling ZEITGEIST?!?

No, muslims are quiet familiar with pagan roots of Judaism and Christianity. Egypt belongs to us after all(talking about other pagan roots). Ive only watched 1 episode i think, and it wasnt about Mithra.

You know how i feel about islam by now, so why would i be an agnostic muslim

I know also you are a wise man, and you would se the false hood of Christianity and would find more truth in Islam.

Mithra wasnt born on december 25th- and mithra wasnt ressurected - also, he only had 4 disciples not twelve like zeitgeist made it out to be.

Dont worry, 25th is the sun day nothing to do with Mithraism.

You want to debate paganism and Christianity. I am afraid that if we debate this issue we would get to deep into Masonic symbolism and such and i know how you feel about "conspiracy theories".

You mind if we move the topics from Robert Spencer and David Wood debate: Did Muhammad exist? Here and debate them all together 1 by 1?

First of Kai, i have to say i am dispointed at your Smoke screen gameplay. You keep bringing in the Quran.

Yeah even when many muslims have to perform ghusl after reciting 78:33

No they dont.

You are right he whipped shabir too.

That a lie and you know, Shabir is better than any Christian debater alive today. Dr Zakir Naik and Ahmed Deedat no Christian have come close to their knowledge neither on Christianity or Islam.

But that wikiislam article frankie posted was a great read- why don't you try to answer it. like i did the osama abdullah article you posted a while back

WikiIslam are liars and i wouldnt read an article that would rotten my mind. If you want to bring quotes from wikiislam feel free.
If you like i can expose some of their lies here? We got all the time in the world Kai.

We discussed this before- that black stone embedded inside the wall of the kaabah is one GLARING pagan root.

Interesting you brought the black stone up. If we can find out how old it is maybe it will shut you up about it being an Pagan Idol and you would know it belonged to Abraham(pbuh). Maybe it even shut you up on the case that Mecca is only 1500 years old?

ND YOU ENJOY OSAMA Eeven after i proved him a liar??

I dont remember what the case was but people make mistakes.

So you judge the debators on their money flow?

All of todays debaters are about money. And the Zionists are happy to give out some. Just like they did for Robert Spencer.
Sam Shamoun wasnt lucky on this case. So he has to beg for donations.

I never said he was- but he is of high repute in the islamic community

That a cool story Kai, but i just showed you how all the translators have no knowledge about Quran. So debate me out of the Quran not out of what other Muslims say.

What a bad boy

I was hoping you would give me a freebie on your toughts about the Qatm case instead of insulting me Kai.

Read what i wrote i said they are NOT qadianis though- meaning they are not ahmadiyas- however ahmadiyas believe they are muslims just as much as mormons believe they are christians

They can have their wishful thinking.

I know some sunnis who will never cast a good light with you about 33:33 and many shias would have a heart attack if they read your post calling them grave worshippers.

Then tell me who 33:33 is talking about. And tell me Shias are they not grave worshippers?
Here you can se the stupidity of Shia.
So i follow Quran, and Bukhari and Muslim and try not to get into any sects. (note sunnis have way more books than Muslim and Bukhari so dont say i am a sunni).



I have great respect for Ali Ibn Talib and the grand children of Prophet Muhammad (saw)(Hassan and Hussein), more than most sunnis have. That why i am open minded to some of there narrations about them. As for shia i just find them to be clowns.

Many thought (rightly so) that sperm came from where there penis was.

Sources?

It seems you have a wishfull thinking about Josephus Kai. Ive already shown you he was an idiot and didnt even know the bible.

As for Pliny the Younger, frankie brought him up so i quoted to him so he could se what his Christian friends back then was worshipping.

Really Ghaith? the quran disagrees with you

Now peter lets examin the verse.

Yusuf Ali
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

Superior can have many meanings Kai. Also the follower of Jesus are Muslims. And almost every Christian a few year after Constantine was a disbeliver. And God made those who follow Jesus more superior than those who reject faith. There are more faithful Muslims than faithful Christians. And when we read further

3:56
"As to those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a severe torment in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers."
Remember the Crusade era? The Ottoman Era?

3:57
And as for those who believe and do good works, He will pay them their wages in full. Allah loveth not wrong-doers.

God did pay the first muslims wages in full. It was not only after Muslims started going astray (1800-today) that Muslims started falling. But now Islam is on the rise again.

61:14
O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah , as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah ?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah ." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant.

So We supported those who believed against their enemy
This enemies here are adressed in

4:157
Pickthall
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

The enemies lost because it appeared to them that Isa ibn Mariam was crucified. This hypocrites are followers of the hypocrite Paul.

Lets go to 5:117
I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.

No where in the Quran does it mention the Genocidal Paul, stupid Christians tried to take Ibn Kathirs tafsir out of context so dont try that against me.

As for "became dominant" that doesnt necessarily mean in numbers. We know there was Those who addapted Pauline faith, then we had those who still kept the original Christianity than we had the Pagan the Jews. Today Christianity is polytheism.They are the mushrikun addresed in the Quran. And god condems trinty.

People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity'—stop, that is better for you—God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust.
— Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa), ayat 171

Paul himself admited he is a hypocrite

1 Corinthians 9:20-22
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain those who are under the law, to those who are outside the law, as outside the law, that I might gain those who are outside the law. To the weak I became as weak, that I might gain the weak. I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

We know the deciples rejected Paul. As before bringing me the Bible and telling me Jesus came back to life and all that remember the 4 gospels are the choice of humans. They are all corrupted.

It's really funny how you destroy your own quran in your attempt in destroying the bible.

Nope im still destroying the bible

Why would pliny who was a roman pagan call jesus a holy prophet or the messiah

My point was he never mentioned the biblical Jesus. Some pagan god.

You mean yasua al masih

Isa al Masih.

Wrong!! The earliest ms of tacitus comes from the 11th century.

Source please

really, well it is the same with the above spurious quote from pliny because supposedly that comes from the year 134 ad

I used pliny because frankie wishfull thinking that there exists a historical Jesus. I quoted it to show that some Christians already became Pagan.

You built yourself a HUGH glasshouse in your argument with frankie so i thought i would throw a pebble at it and let it crash down.

Sadly you hit the tree and not my glasshouse : D

Well, the book of mormon is also a historical book that says jesus exists so does that mean you will be mormon- see how that works Ghaith.

Ahmadiyyans says jesus came back as a hindu your point? Frankie tried to use Quran against me so i gave him that argument.

I can show you more from Josephus book but i belive you have read it? Atleast it show that the bible Josephus had was different than that one of today. Or that he was an idiot who misunderstood Christianity.

The 10,000 and 100,000 is an issue of translation between the greek of josephus and the hebrew of 1 chronicles

That a sad excuse they use for the contradictions-

The whole 25 december deal comes at the time of Constantine. Show me sources about your claims on Mithra before we debate it.


As for your Sam Shamoun and your bashing on Osama. This is how your Sam Shamoun aka "Shamu the whale" debates on paltalk He is Answering-Islam on the chat. Look how he insults Osama.











This is why he never made it in the big league, he has adhd, so dont defend him Kai.

Again Here is how Christian(Sam Shamoun and Christian Prince) debate against Osama. So dont insult Osama Kai he is a decent man.

CP say Osama just lost his virginity http://www.answering-christianity.com/cp_foul_mockery.mp3

Christian Prince tells Sam to shut up
http://www.answering-christianity.com/cp_shutting_up_shamoun.mp3



This are the 2 best debaters christians have today against Muslims.

That is why the Cross-Worshipper will never have great debater like Ahmed Deedat and Dr Zakir Naik.


Kai ive already showed you that Paul was a hypocrite and if he had to mix paganism in so be it all he wanted was followers for his new cult. As for Constantine corrupting Christianity thats a no brainer. Sunday so they can worship the sun, 25th December is the day Sun is worshipped and such which we will get into later.


And here are the rest of the clowns who cannot even handle Osama and want to debate Dr Zakir Naik



This guys are not even fit to poolish his shoes

[Ghaith]

Just posted to say got my account back.

Congratulations.

Hi pr26 was Ghaith banned like he insists?

Kai if you belive me or not i dont really care, i was ip banned before i was banned and i used proxy to send you a message so that when my account might get disabled we could keep contact.

[kaimana1]

There is no error Kai, i already showed you cannot use the third of three. And ive showed you the translators tought it was talking about christian trinty and the translators them self tought the trinty was father mother son so they made an error. You should be fair and make an arabic speaker read it to you.

How is that proving that they errored in the translation?

It's wishful thinking on the part of a muslim apologist- i showed you that you can use third of three- Why would i make an arabic speaker read it to me when i can read it myself?

Hmm

You don't have to believe me! I am just telling you.
[

No, muslims are quiet familiar with pagan roots of Judaism and Christianity

No, muslims are good at spinning those pagan roots

. Egypt belongs to us after all(talking about other pagan roots). Ive only watched 1 episode i think, and it wasnt about Mithra.

What does egypt being apart of the islamic world have anything to do with muslims knowing about pagan roots?
Well, they do use mithra example along with horus etc...

I know also you are a wise man, and you would se the false hood of Christianity and would find more truth in Islam.

Hopefully Ghaith you will see the falsehoods of islam and wont waste your life on such nonsense-

Dont worry, 25th is the sun day nothing to do with Mithraism.

The movie zeitgeist did try to make the connection, however, no doubt winter starts around december 22-27 so many cultures would hold a winter solstice

You want to debate paganism and Christianity. I am afraid that if we debate this issue we would get to deep into Masonic symbolism and such and i know how you feel about "conspiracy theories".

Masonic symbolism" cmon Ghaith why waste your time with such absurdities?

You mind if we move the topics from Robert Spencer and David Wood debate: Did Muhammad exist? Here and debate them all together 1 by 1?

I dont mind at all.

First of Kai, i have to say i am dispointed at your Smoke screen gameplay. You keep bringing in the Quran.

I could use the farjaha verses- but i was actually being soft on you- BTW why wouldnt i bring in thhe quran it is very relevant to topic i gave you explanation for ezekiel 23 prophecy- and explained how it was never meant to be bedtime story for 6 year old child.

[

No they dont.

I quoted and even provided link to haddads website showing that yes they do.

That a lie and you know, Shabir is better than any Christian debater alive today

That is a matter of opinion and you know it. What happened to the objectivity?

. Dr Zakir Naik and Ahmed Deedat no Christian have come close to their knowledge neither on Christianity or Islam.

let me show you a sunni MUSLIM link regarding deedat
http://www.scribd.com/doc/92950955/Calamities-of-Ahmed-Deedat

In it this muslim says

Deedat’s ignorance of Islam and the Sunnah leads him to propagate the deviantQuranic translation of Abdullah Yusuf Ali throughout his booklets and videos. Infact, it would not be wrong to say that it was Ahmed Deedat and his IPCIorganization who spread this filthy translation to all corners of the world. Almostevery single booklet produced by Deedat and his organization has some kind of advertising of this translation. According to Deedat, this is a“…learnedcommentary…”(Al-Qur’an –The Miracle of Miracles page 55) and:“…If you own...

He goes on to scour deedat for propogating the michael hart infuential person in history- i agree with the muslim on those issues and more just read the article when you have time.

Anyways deedat had no real knowledge of the bible- like for example his claim that isa was esau which he claimed was a common name in hebrew- he never realized that the 60 times esau was mentioned in genesis was the same person, that is genuine sitcom Ghaith! same with his combat kit- he never read who rabshekah was?

Zakir is another liar- that guy is a salafist clown.

WikiIslam are liars and i wouldnt read an article that would rotten my mind. If you want to bring quotes from wikiislam feel free.

rot your mind?!! it might clear your mind there's many good articles in wikiislam

If you like i can expose some of their lies here? We got all the time in the world Kai.

HMMM anyways i wished i had all the time in the world

Interesting you brought the black stone up. If we can find out how old it is maybe it will shut you up about it being an Pagan Idol and you would know it belonged to Abraham(pbuh). Maybe it even shut you up on the case that Mecca is only 1500 years old?

The dating of the meteorite would not prove anything regarding age of mecca or abraham being the re builder as the age of the meteorite is DIFFERENT then when it crashed on to earth.
In fact the stone there now is probably not the same stone that was there in mo's day.
Nice try Ghaith!

I dont remember what the case was but people make mistakes.

Sure people make mistakes - but his deliberate insertion regarding dahaha was deceptive to say the least.

All of todays debaters are about money. And the Zionists are happy to give out some.

Do you notice the inconsitency with your comment there? the zionists should be thrilled to give money to sam
But as you said

Just like they did for Robert Spencer.
Sam Shamoun wasnt lucky on this case. So he has to beg for donations.

Really? ha ha

That a cool story Kai, but i just showed you how all the translators have no knowledge about Quran. So debate me out of the Quran not out of what other Muslims say.

Where did you show me that?? so you are saaying that the translators who mostly have phds in quranic arabic and islamic studies and are devout muslims have no knowledge of quran??

And i did debate you out of quran regarding 3:55 and 61:14

I said

What a bad boy

and
You said

I was hoping you would give me a freebie on your toughts about the Qatm case instead of insulting me Kai.

I want insulting you i just merely said you were a bad boy for insulting those shia- i knew there was alot of posts to reply, so i didnt see it relevant to get into qatm issue

They can have their wishful thinking.

Okay

Then tell me who 33:33 is talking about. And tell me Shias are they not grave worshippers?

It's talking about mo's family was not abu bakr family through aisha- same with umar and uthman- generally that is the sunni counter argument

Sure shia are grave worshippers- all muslims are meteorite worshippers and muhammad worshippers- That sounds harsh, but it is the truth Ghaith

Here you can se the stupidity of Shia.

Sure

So i follow Quran, and Bukhari and Muslim and try not to get into any sects. (note sunnis have way more books than Muslim and Bukhari so dont say i am a sunni).

I am aware of that - they have the the ا لكتب السته they also have malik ibn anas muwatta, ahmed ibn hanbal's musnad etc..
what criteria do you use to only accept bukhari and muslim?

I have great respect for Ali Ibn Talib and the grand children of Prophet Muhammad (saw)(Hassan and Hussein), more than most sunnis have. That why i am open minded to some of there narrations about them. As for shia i just find them to be clowns.

They are just people like anyone else but that is why i say muslims in general worship muhammad

Sources?

Are you serious? it was common sense! people knew that when you have sex with women you shoot a wad into her and usually the woman gets pregnant. that is why the term offspring from a persons loins was common.

It seems you have a wishfull thinking about Josephus Kai. Ive already shown you he was an idiot and didnt even know the bible.

Huh no i never said he was an expert on bible - the point was he was a historian that knew jesus had a brother named james.

As for Pliny the Younger, frankie brought him up so i quoted to him so he could se what his Christian friends back then was worshipping.

Well i showed you the problem with the quote and showed you how it was probably spurious

Now peter lets examin the verse.

You mean kai?

I showed arabic- and it clearly says superior till ressurection day to those who disbelieved. Ghaith jews don't believe jesus was messiah

Yusuf Ali
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

Superior can have many meanings Kai. Also the follower of Jesus are Muslims. And almost every Christian a few year after Constantine was a disbeliver. And God made those who follow Jesus more superior than those who reject faith. There are more faithful Muslims than faithful Christians. And when we read further

Noo ibn kathir believed that allah made christians uppermost to jews because they were closer to truth.

3:56
"As to those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a severe torment in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers."
Remember the Crusade era? The Ottoman Era?

Huh no what exactly is your point?
3:57
And as for those who believe and do good works, He will pay them their wages in full. Allah loveth not wrong-doers.

God did pay the first muslims wages in full. It was not only after Muslims started going astray (1800-today) that Muslims started falling. But now Islam is on the rise again.

Huh no you are reading your own interpretation in it again Ghaith.Actually it was from 1600-today

61:14
O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah , as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah ?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah ." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant.

So We supported those who believed against their enemy
This enemies here are adressed in

No that is not supported by those verses the verse says those who believed against their enemy became dominant.

4:157
Pickthall
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

The enemies lost because it appeared to them that Isa ibn Mariam was crucified. This hypocrites are followers of the hypocrite Paul

So jews dominated paul who believed ??? also the problem arises with 4:157 that it says WE SLEW THE MESSIAH christians dont believe they slew the messiah nor did paul.

It's talking about jews.

Lets go to 5:117
I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.

read above

No where in the Quran does it mention the Genocidal Paul, stupid Christians tried to take Ibn Kathirs tafsir out of context so dont try that against me.

thats the thing if the quran was clear it would have singled paul out as the bogeyman but it doesnt- when it should have. ibn kathir and al-tabari have many things to say regarding paul and none of them are negative about paul.

As for "became dominant" that doesnt necessarily mean in numbers. We know there was Those who addapted Pauline faith, then we had those who still kept the original Christianity than we had the Pagan the Jews. Today Christianity is polytheism.They are the mushrikun addresed in the Quran. And god condems trinty.

Wrong, The nasara mentioned in 9:30 are the same christians-also christians of najran were also pauline- so that argument flies out the window.

People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity'—stop, that is better for you—God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust.
— Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa), ayat 171

Paul himself admited he is a hypocrite

No he didnt

1 Corinthians 9:20-22
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain those who are under the law, to those who are outside the law, as outside the law, that I might gain those who are outside the law. To the weak I became as weak, that I might gain the weak. I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

This is paul saying if you proselytize amongst hindus if you eat with them use only right hand. if you are in china take shoes off before entering. in other words if you respect their culture you might win some of them over.

We know the deciples rejected Paul. As before bringing me the Bible and telling me Jesus came back to life and all that remember the 4 gospels are the choice of humans. They are all corrupted.

No the disciples did not reject paul- the four gospel accounts are of one gospel in fact the whole NT is the gospel- the quran doesnt say so.

Nope im still destroying the bible

And the quran with it.

My point was he never mentioned the biblical Jesus. Some pagan god.

according to quote he mentioned both

Isa al Masih.

Yasua al masih

Source please

sure http://books.google.com.om/books?id=dgU9AAAAIAAJ&lpg=PP1&hl=en&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false

I used pliny because frankie wishfull thinking that there exists a historical Jesus. I quoted it to show that some Christians already became Pagan.

If they were pagan they werent christian and of course a historical jesus exists- if that is the case then muhammad didnt exist because the few references of muhammad outside of islamic sources could be put under scrutiny check out muhammad sven kalisch
[

Sadly you hit the tree and not my glasshouse : D

You say that with glass crackling under your shoes. ha haaaa

Well, the book of mormon is also a historical book that says jesus exists so does that mean you will be mormon- see how that works Ghaith.

Ahmadiyyans says jesus came back as a hindu your point? Frankie tried to use Quran against me so i gave him that argument.

he did use quran against you

I can show you more from Josephus book but i belive you have read it? Atleast it show that the bible Josephus had was different than that one of today. Or that he was an idiot who misunderstood Christianity.

No it doesnt prove that- your point was proving that the bible in its original form shows that moses vanished and didnt die??
[

That a sad excuse they use for the contradictions-

It's not an excuse its true.

The whole 25 december deal comes at the time of Constantine. Show me sources about your claims on Mithra before we debate it.

Well i believed you were going the zeitgeist way- i have debated this issue with muslims before many times-

quote]

As for your Sam Shamoun and your bashing on Osama. This is how your Sam Shamoun aka "Shamu the whale" debates on paltalk He is Answering-Islam on the chat. Look how he insults Osama.

[/quote]

Those guys have a long history with osama etc... on paltalk. sam gets caught up with the insults that are often hurled at him so its only human nature that he will hurl back at him

This is why he never made it in the big league, he has adhd, so dont defend him Kai.

LOl

Again Here is how Christian(Sam Shamoun and Christian Prince) debate against Osama. So dont insult Osama Kai he is a decent man.

I know that osama writes trash and lies about his sources many times- thats all i need to know.

CP say Osama just lost his virginity http://www.answering-christianity.com/cp_foul_mockery.mp3

Christian Prince tells Sam to shut up
http://www.answering-christianity.com/cp_shutting_up_shamoun.mp3

Osama sure is whining about it. hmmm

This are the 2 best debaters christians have today against Muslims.

Have you ever seen saami zataari insult sam over the years?

That is why the Cross-Worshipper will never have great debater like Ahmed Deedat and Dr Zakir Naik.

Kai ive already showed you that Paul was a hypocrite and if he had to mix paganism in so be it all he wanted was followers for his new cult. As for Constantine corrupting Christianity thats a no brainer. Sunday so they can worship the sun, 25th December is the day Sun is worshipped and such which we will get into later.

No you failed- lets get it.

And here are the rest of the clowns who cannot even handle Osama and want to debate Dr Zakir Naik

naik is a fraud which we will get into

[Ghaith]

A 24hours response from Kai that not bad

i showed you that you can use third of three

This does not fit if Jesus is Alpha and Omega. So saying father is first is wrong. No error here moving on.

No, muslims are good at spinning those pagan roots

This is comming from a guy who think the black rock is a pagan god

Well, they do use mithra example along with horus etc...

Well there are many similaraties between horus and Jesus.

The movie zeitgeist did try to make the connection, however, no doubt winter starts around december 22-27 so many cultures would hold a winter solstice

Zeitgeist is a movie hmm, i tought it was a serie. I might have watched a snippet out of the movie

Masonic symbolism" cmon Ghaith why waste your time with such absurdities?

Are you denieng the existens of freemasonry kai?

I could use the farjaha verses- but i was actually being soft on you

Use any verse you like.

let me show you a sunni MUSLIM link regarding deedat

Seems like some Muslims are haters to.

Zakir is another liar- that guy is a salafist clown.

Respect Kai, respect. Christians are the biggest clown when it comes taking things out of context. Like the deal with Thomas calling Jesus god when he was only talking in shock when he saw Jesus. So Zakir is doing his best. And i cant recall him taking in thing out of context.

rot your mind?!! it might clear your mind there's many good articles in wikiislam

Here is an exampel. This is on sex with Animals, which Christians keep bashing muslims on out of Abu Dawood. I wanted to see how they twist it and what do you know?

In fact the stone there now is probably not the same stone that was there in mo's day.

This is funny, since you should know that after they got it back from Qarmatians it pretty much havent moved at all since then.

Nice try Ghaith!

How do you suggest we can find out how old it is?

Sure people make mistakes - but his deliberate insertion regarding dahaha was deceptive to say the least.

Matter infact dahaha is sill being debated, ive seen muslim denie it and ive seen muslim accept it. it goes way way deeper than that the Ostrich flattens the sand. There are other ayas that tells us the earth is round so this is an extra.

the zionists should be thrilled to give money to sam

Well Sam is just horrible. But zionists do sponser Answering-Islam, but not Sam solo like they do with others.

you are saaying that the translators who mostly have phds in quranic arabic and islamic studies and are devout muslims have no knowledge of quran??

Kai look at how old their translations are. And one of the newiest translators are that idiot Rashid. Code 19 rememeber

all muslims are meteorite worshippers and muhammad worshippers-

That like saying Jews are wall worshipers and Moses worshippers.
Btw, this is comming from a guy saying Catholics dont worship Mary.

I am aware of that - they have the the ا لكتب السته they also have malik ibn anas muwatta, ahmed ibn hanbal's musnad etc..
what criteria do you use to only accept bukhari and muslim?

God wanted Bukhari to do his work, that is irefetuable fact,and Bukhari not only did he memorize all that hadith but also the narrators compared with all those other copy pasters. Muslims hadith seems to be as stable as Bukharis so i have no problem with those books. When we start to get to Sunan Abu Dawood i start having problems.
Some sunnis even accept Ibn Ishaq as being authentic.

They are just people like anyone else but that is why i say muslims in general worship muhammad

There a different between worship and obediance, showing respect. Catholics worship Mary, Christians worship Jesus. Nazareth Jews respect and obey Jesus they dont worship him same with Muslims and Muhammad.

Are you serious? it was common sense! people knew that when you have sex with women you shoot a wad into her and usually the woman gets pregnant. that is why the term offspring from a persons loins was common.

The greeks that found out the earth was not flat tought the sperm came from the brain.

Huh no i never said he was an expert on bible - the point was he was a historian that knew jesus had a brother named james.

Still no proof of a historical Jesus

Well i showed you the problem with the quote and showed you how it was probably spurious

People dont have a problem with Pliny, few will say its a forgery, unlike Josephus.

You mean kai?

Sorry about that.

Noo ibn kathir believed that allah made christians uppermost to jews because they were closer to truth.

As good as Ibn Kathir tafsir is, it is outdated. So i dont care what Ibn Kathir belived.

Huh no what exactly is your point?

God punished those who disbelived. Followed Paul and Constantine etc.

And as for those who believe and do good works, He will pay them their wages in full. Allah loveth not wrong-doers.

Didnt god pay them their wages, im sure you know the miraculous battles Muslims won.

Actually it was from 1600-today

Why would you say that.

your own interpretation

Might be try, but it fits the puzzle well

So jews dominated paul who believed ??? also the problem arises with 4:157 that it says WE SLEW THE MESSIAH christians dont believe they slew the messiah nor did paul.

Umm Kai, you misunderstood me. 61:14 Is talking about pre-Paul. To those who disbelived appeared as they slew Isa ibn Mariam.

ibn kathir and al-tabari have many things to say regarding paul and none of them are negative about paul.

They dont know the real paul, the Homosexual that hijacked Christianity.

Wrong, The nasara mentioned in 9:30 are the same christians-also christians of najran were also pauline- so that argument flies out the window.

We need to look at the time, 9:30 is talking about Christians in the time of Prophet Muhammad when they adapted the Gods son doctrine. Same with Jews. You dont hear jews today saying Ezra is son of god, even if i have heard a jew say it before its not common.

This is paul saying if you proselytize amongst hindus if you eat with them use only right hand. if you are in china take shoes off before entering. in other words if you respect their culture you might win some of them over.

We know Paul was desperate for follower, that why he took a bit from Mithraism to trick the pagans in.

four gospel accounts are of one gospel in fact the whole NT is the gospel

That the biggest bs ive heard any 1 say. And the most biased Christian shcolar would laught at you if you said that. Regardless what Paul said in his book any 1 who is educated on this matter nows the churche choose what books to be and what books to not be.This is why There are 66 books in the protestant bible and 73 in the catholic. Where did you leave out Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary Mag? Secret Gospel of Mark?. I am being fair and did not include barnabas in this section. Haha silly
That Garbage NT is not Injil.

according to quote he mentioned both

Not if the pagan god was also regarded as Christos.

historical jesus exists

No historical Jesus exists, same with Paul.

muhammad didnt exist

Didnt Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman, Ali exist? This did exist without a doubt because they went to war with Byzantine and with Persians.

Also we have Muhammads, belongings, We have his Hair, teeth, footstep etc.

Any 1 who say Muhammad didnt exist is an Idiot.

Also Muhammad didnt exist myth was laid to rest by Petra Sijpesteijn

apyrus manuscripts have been found in their thousands in the sand and at ancient rubbish tips all over the Middle East but especially in Egypt. Dr Sijpesteijn explains that they are often difficult to read because they are partially destroyed, badly written out or in dialect. “But if you can read them, they offer a unique glimpse of ordinary life at the dawn of Islam.”

The study of Arabic papyri is in its infancy. Only a fraction of the hundreds of thousands of available manuscripts have been studied. As far as the work done so far is concerned, the Muslim faithful can set their minds at ease: Dr Sijpesteijn says the texts largely confirm the official Islamic version of events.

http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/evidence-says-muhammad-existed
She German to.


And where did you leave out non-islamic sources such as Sebeos,

Twelve peoples representing all the tribes of the Jews assembled at the city of Edessa. When they saw that the Persian troops had departed leaving the city in peace, they closed the gates and fortified themselves. They refused entry to troops of the Roman lordship. Thus Heraclius, emperor of the Byzantines, gave the order to besiege it. When the Jews realized that they could not militarily resist him, they promised to make peace. Opening the city gates, they went before him, and Heraclius ordered that they should go and stay in their own place. So they departed, taking the road through the desert to Tachkastan Arabia to the sons of Ishmael. The Jews called the Arabs to their aid and familiarized them with the relationship they had through the books of the Old Testament. Although the Arabs were convinced of their close relationship, they were unable to get a consensus from their multitude, for they were divided from each other by religion. In that period a certain one of them, a man of the sons of Ishmael named Muhammad, became prominent. A sermon about the Way of Truth, supposedly at God’s command, was revealed to them, and Muhammad taught them to recognize the God of Abraham, especially since he was informed and knowledgeable about Mosaic history. Because the command had come from on High, he ordered them all to assemble together and to unite in faith. Abandoning the reverence of vain things, they turned toward the living God, who had appeared to their father–Abraham. Muhammad legislated that they were not to eat carrion, not to drink wine, not to speak falsehoods, and not to commit adultery. He said: “God promised that country to Abraham and to his son after him, for eternity. And what had been promised was fulfilled during that time when God loved Israel. Now, however, you are the sons of Abraham, and God shall fulfill the promise made to Abraham and his son on you. Only love the God of Abraham, and go and take the country which God gave to your father Abraham. No one can successfully resist you in war, since God is with you”.

And what about Hadiths 200years after Muhammad with solid Chains to the time of Muhammad.

Im sorry Kai a Historical Muhammad exists without a doubt, Jesus dont neither do Paul. Ive already showen Josephus inaccuracy of the bible and he only spoke of a Jesus known then, not a historical one, the bible states his brother was James. And Pliny you your self dont want to recognize the same of the early Christians, and the other are heavily edited.

No it doesnt prove that- your point was proving that the bible in its original form shows that moses vanished and didnt die??

That what Josephus said.

It's not an excuse its true.

Its a major excuse, if not post the Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic text here and show me they state the same numbers on Solomons stall etc.

Well i believed you were going the zeitgeist way- i have debated this issue with muslims before many times-

Im going to watch this Zeitgeist movie and i will se how we view it different.

Those guys have a long history with osama etc... on paltalk. sam gets caught up with the insults that are often hurled at him so its only human nature that he will hurl back at him

If you have adhd yeah sure.

I know that osama writes trash and lies about his sources many times- thats all i need to know.

His not the best writer of AC, but he is decent.

Osama sure is whining about it. hmmm

Wouldnt you, 2 debater against you + a room full of Christian who attack you.

Have you ever seen saami zataari insult sam over the years?

Not using words like Sam did.

No you failed- lets get it.

Ohh?

naik is a fraud which we will get into

yes you hate naik because he rips your bible apart.

[Ghaith]

Anyways Kai i am traveling to Gibraltar, so i wont be online much. So dont get any ideas that a ran away or i am playing games like you did when i was banned

[kaimana1]

A 24hours response from Kai that not bad

I have work and a family- so, i post when i can.

This does not fit if Jesus is Alpha and Omega. So saying father is first is wrong. No error here moving on.

Ghaith you are missing the point entirely saying mary at all is wrong- all the quran had to do was say do not take the ruh as a god with allah-First of all show where the quran calls jesus the first and the last- and the beginning and the ending?

This is comming from a guy who think the black rock is a pagan god

Correction- it's coming from a guy who knows the black rock is worshipped by muslims- they do it five times a day every day (devout muslims anyways)

Well there are many similaraties between horus and Jesus.

Not really- you mean like the supposed virgin birth? ha haa

Zeitgeist is a movie hmm, i tought it was a serie. I might have watched a snippet out of the movie

It is called zeitgeist the movie it has three parts.

Are you denieng the existens of freemasonry kai?

Not at all Ghaith, i am denying the silly loony crackpot theories regarding them like the pyramid with one eye symbol- Beneath it are the words, novus ordo seclorum, which translate as "A new order of the ages. It does not mean "a new world order," as has been alleged by those crazy crackpots- . (New world order would be written as novus ordo mundi

e any verse you like.

Are you sure?

Seems like some Muslims are haters to.

Yeah- some muslims are at least somewhat honest out there.

Respect Kai, respect. Christians are the biggest clown when it comes taking things out of context

A fraudulent person like zakir naik does not deserve any respect.
.

Like the deal with Thomas calling Jesus god when he was only talking in shock when he saw Jesus

Talking in shock huh

So Zakir is doing his best. And i cant recall him taking in thing out of context.

You are very selective with those blindfolds on called wishful thinking.

re is an exampel. This is on sex with Animals, which Christians keep bashing muslims on out of Abu Dawood. I wanted to see how they twist it and what do you know?

There are a few articles on wikiislam i disagree with and some parts i dont see eye to eye with but overall it's a great source.

This is funny, since you should know that after they got it back from Qarmatians it pretty much havent moved at all since then.

There's no guarantee that the stone the green grocers returned to mecca was the same one they took. with that being said there's word out there that the stone was taken and destroyed by wahabis in 1700s.

How do you suggest we can find out how old it is?

Like i said you can get a rough idea of how old it is but not how long it has been there in the kaaba (wall of) crazy thing is it's more than likely not even the same stone mo kissed on.

Matter infact dahaha is sill being debated, ive seen muslim denie it and ive seen muslim accept it

The muslims who accept it are in deep denial- it shouldnt even be an issue up for debate the lisan al arab dictionary is very clear on the matter

. it goes way way deeper than that the Ostrich flattens the sand.

Great dramatics there yos- but at the end of the day that is pure unadulterated BS.

There are other ayas that tells us the earth is round so this is an extra.

More wishful thinking Ghaith.

Well Sam is just horrible. But zionists do sponser Answering-Islam, but not Sam solo like they do with others.

So the zionists are so desperate and believe sam is so horrible they still let him write the plurality of articles on AI- Ghaith you know how silly that all sounds?

Kai look at how old their translations are

Hmm so the meanings of allahs words change every so few years?

after your next snippet i will destroy this argument
.

And one of the newiest translators are that idiot Rashid. Code 19 rememeber

He is not one of the newest translators- but Yes that is the same rashid who i recalled you jumping on in our dahaha debate a while back Ghaith ha haha Yes i also remember deedat jumping on the code 19 BS and made a fool out of himself for more than ten years before he retracted it.

Anyways lets take a look at the translations rashid had his translation published in 1981 then revised in 1992

ahmed ali had his published in 1984
revised in 2001
muhammad asad had his in 1980

abdel haleems was in 2004

Syed Vickar Ahamed in 2007

aisha bewley shes sufi had hers published in 1999

you know shakir had his in 1982 his first edition with his most recent edition in 2005

You know hilali and mushin khans and ali unals alis was done in 2006 khans in 1999

Those are all new compared to yusuf alis and pickthalls

That like saying Jews are wall worshipers and Moses worshippers.

From the perspective of the torah those jews who do that are wall worshippers

Btw, this is comming from a guy saying Catholics dont worship Mary.

No its coming from a guy who knows catholics dont say they worship mary kind of like muslims who say they dont worship there stone but bow to it every day.

God wanted Bukhari to do his work, that is irefetuable fact

Really? even after you yourself pointed out conflicting hadiths regarding solomons wives? i did point out how those were different chains but it leaves the muslims in conjecture.
BTW Why not ahmed ibn hanbal or abi dawud or malik ibn anas god didnt care about their works?

,

and Bukhari not only did he memorize all that hadith but also the narrators compared with all those other copy pasters.

Sure buddy

Muslims hadith seems to be as stable as Bukharis so i have no problem with those books. When we start to get to Sunan Abu Dawood i start having problems.
Some sunnis even accept Ibn Ishaq as being authentic.

well, ibn muslim was a direct student of bukhari- that is why is hadees are labeled sound or SAHIH automatically- as far as abu dawuds sunan is concerned his criteria was a little different regarding isnad he required only four main chain links in the narrations as opposed to the 6 of muslim and bukhari

There a different between worship and obediance, showing respect

PURE BULLSH!T Ghaith you dont obey stones or walls

. Catholics worship Mary, Christians worship Jesus. Nazareth Jews respect and obey Jesus they dont worship him same with Muslims and Muhammad.

Catholics dont claim too- and trinitarian christians worship trinity like catholics

Who are these nazareth jews? you mean messianic jews? those guys believe in trinity

The greeks that found out the earth was not flat tought the sperm came from the brain.

Not entirely true yos- they had numerous competing theories like the one about that sperm come from all parts of the parents' bodies and are composed of the four bodily forms: blood, phlegm, yellow bile, and black bile and aristotles theory. but hippocrates i believed said that semen comes from the scrotum

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/philosophyscience/a/031511-Ancient-Greek-Genetic-Theory.htm

Still no proof of a historical Jesus

You are in deep denial yos- here is earlier post i made from the same link you provided L O L Those two josephus passages regardning jesus are real. Most experts regard them as sound and legit one of them may have additions. but the one about jesus having a brother named james is solid. Why i will even quote your wikipedia for you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesussays

The overwhelming majority of modern scholars consider the reference in Book 20, Chapter 9, 1 of the Antiquities to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James" to be authentic and to have the highest level of authenticity among the references of Josephus to Christianity.[4][1][2][5][6] Almost all modern scholars consider the reference in Book 18, Chapter 5, 2 of the Antiquities to the imprisonment and death of John the Baptist to also be authentic.[7][8][9]

Scholars have differing opinions on the total or partial authenticity of the reference in Book 18, Chapter 3, 3 of the Antiquities to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate, a passage usually called the Testimonium Flavianum.[10][1] The general scholarly view is that while the Testimonium Flavianum is most likely not authentic in its entirety, it is broadly agreed upon that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate which was then subject to Christian interpolation,[10][11][12][13][14] Although the exact nature and extent of the Christian redaction remains unclear[15] there is broad consensus as to what the original text of the Testimonium by Josephus would have looked like

ealize is the fact that josephus being familiar with some of the christian books show that the gospel accounts and james was in existence in the middle of the first century.

But go on i do find it amusing to see a muslim trying to disprove the existence of the 2nd greatest prophet of islam.

People dont have a problem with Pliny, few will say its a forgery, unlike Josephus.

Wrong- the quote from pliny is viewed as spurios that is fact.

As good as Ibn Kathir tafsir is, it is outdated. So i dont care what Ibn Kathir belived.

Holy batsh!t call the press- you are getting there Ghaith - so is the quran outdated?

Ghaith ibn kathir was much closer to time of quran and understood the meanings of those verses.

God punished those who disbelived. Followed Paul and Constantine etc.

No, otherwise they would have never been superior to those that disbelieved. its referencing christians the same christians of egypt arabia ethiopia that believed in trinity.

Didnt god pay them their wages, im sure you know the miraculous battles Muslims won.

Sure like the battle of uhud- and what about all those miraculous battles genghis khan won in the 1200s. etc...

Why would you say that.

Because the ottomans began their decline in the late 1500s they never gained territory after early 1600s-

Might be try, but it fits the puzzle well

Sounds more like you hammering a square peg into a circle hole.

Umm Kai, you misunderstood me. 61:14 Is talking about pre-Paul. To those who disbelived appeared as they slew Yasua ibn Mariam.

no i didnt 61:14 wouldnt make any sense then Ghaith it doesnt say for a couple of years your followers will be uppermost. it says they will be uppermost period and it goes with 3:55 thats a perfect fit in puzzle

They dont know the real paul, the Homosexual that hijacked Christianity

.
Not even the quran says any such thing that paul would become uppermost if he was disbeliever! and im sure you could prove that paul is homosexual as easily as i could prove muhammad was a bisexual.

We need to look at the time, 9:30 is talking about Christians in the time of Prophet Muhammad when they adapted the Gods son doctrine.

BS Ghaith the christians always believed jesus was son of god even the non trinitarians like the arians- it didnt happen during mos lifetime- that is ridiculous.

Same with Jews. You dont hear jews today saying Ezra is son of god, even if i have heard a jew say it before its not common.

Jews never have believed ezra was the son of god the encyclopedia judaica article that many muslims post on their website is entirely out of context-

The jewish dr simply quotes a muslim writing from yemen in tenth century that says jews used to believe ezra was son of god yet the muslim provided no evidence - he just wrote it because the quran says this.

I believe i explained this too you a while back- but mo might have misunderstood the hebrew word banou meaning messenger with the word ibnou meaning son- Often mo would hear judaized arabs recite torah and prophets in hebrew- and he would get lost explaining these silly errors in quran

Or it is possible that muhammad was making an equivelancy argument by saying the jews were just like the christians- this was amongst his last revelations he already subdued the jewish tribes of hijaz.

We know Paul was desperate for follower, that why he took a bit from Mithraism to trick the pagans in.

Huh No roman mithraism didnt even get in the picture until 75 or more years after paul died

That the biggest bs ive heard any 1 say. And the most biased Christian shcolar would laught at you if you said that

Ghaith you just exposed your own ignorance again- almost every christian calls the four gospel accounts as one gospel and the epistles supplement the gospels therefore, it is seen as ONE GOSPEL that is fact same with torah technically it is only first five books but the prophets had their basis on torah so the tanakh or ot can be seen as THE TORAH.
.

Regardless what Paul said in his book any 1 who is educated on this matter nows the churche choose what books to be and what books to not be.This is why There are 66 books in the protestant bible and 73 in the catholic

They chose books that were already seen as inspired by christian writers going to first century- augustine believed that those 7 OT books that were eventually added in catholic canon were LESS INSPIRED but he believed they should be in there- in any case the NT is the same

.

Where did you leave out Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary Mag? Secret Gospel of Mark?. I am being fair and did not include barnabas in this section. Haha silly
That Garbage NT is not Injil.

Because those gospels were written long after the first four and couldnt have possibly be written by supposed authors. even then dont you realize that many of those books are FAR MORE TRINITARIAN FRIENDLY if the gospel of thomas and the apocalypse of paul and letter to magnesiuns you have statements supposedly of jesus telling his disciples that he is the GOD and creator. even athanasius knew those books were fraudulent- because they were not mentioned by 2nd century writers despite the fact those books would have put trinity case to rest.

Not if the pagan god was also regarded as Christos.

For arguments sake- lets say its not spurious- pliny was not a christian- what do you expect him to say about christians or jesus?

No historical Jesus exists, same with Paul.

Wrong if that were the case then just as strong a case can be made for mo using your logic.

Didnt Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman, Ali exist? This did exist without a doubt because they went to war with Byzantine and with Persians.

My point was if a small number of scholars scrutinize their existence =that means they must not have ACCORDING TO YOUR LOGIC.

Also we have Muhammads, belongings, We have his Hair, teeth, footstep etc.

No you don't! if thats the case catholics and orthodoax believe they have the bones of various apostles of jesus.

Any 1 who say Muhammad didnt exist is an Idiot.

Just like any1 who denies the existence of a historical jesus

Also Muhammad didnt exist myth was laid to rest by Petra Sijpesteijn

Actually i believe a historical muhammad existed i was just using a counter argument showing you how flawed your logic is Ghaith. Interesting link here Ghaith i especially agree with the last part of link you provided

Even so, her discoveries form a potential threat to the image some modern Muslims have of their history. The papyri contradict the belief held by many of today’s Muslims that Muhammad delivered Islam as a sort of ready-made package. “It looks as though Islam in its first centuries developed a form gradually. There was an awful lot of discussion about precisely what it meant to be a Muslim.”

I have always believed this to be the case- so i like this petra for proving this.

apyrus manuscripts have been found in their thousands in the sand and at ancient rubbish tips all over the Middle East but especially in Egypt. Dr Sijpesteijn explains that they are often difficult to read because they are partially destroyed, badly written out or in dialect. “But if you can read them, they offer a unique glimpse of ordinary life at the dawn of Islam.”

The study of Arabic papyri is in its infancy. Only a fraction of the hundreds of thousands of available manuscripts have been studied. As far as the work done so far is concerned, the Muslim faithful can set their minds at ease: Dr Sijpesteijn says the texts largely confirm the official Islamic version of events.

http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/evidence-says-muhammad-existed

She German to.

So is muhammad sven kalisch in fact he was germanyd first muslim scholar.

And where did you leave out non-islamic sources such as Sebeos

,

I didnt leave him out even though the earliest mss of any of sebeos works dont survive before the seventeenth century (see how that can be scrutinized)

And what about Hadiths 200years after Muhammad with solid Chains to the time of Muhammad.

it would be easy for a skeptic to say the chains were made up!

sorry Kai a Historical Muhammad exists without a doubt, Jesus dont neither do Paul.

I proved that they are the same

Ive already showen Josephus inaccuracy of the bible and he only spoke of a Jesus known then, not a historical one, the bible states his brother was James

.

Josephus inaccuracies dont prove josephus was not a writer writing in first century about jesus. Yes the bible states that again proving the bible was in existence BEFORE josephus.

And Pliny you your self dont want to recognize the same of the early Christians, and the other are heavily edited.

I recognize pliny just some of his quotes seem to be spurious. heavily edited like that sebeos quote LMAO

That what Josephus said.

I agree that IS WHAT JOSEPHUS SAID

]

Its a major excuse, if not post the Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic text here and show me they state the same numbers on Solomons stall etc.

I thought we were talkin about 10,000 talents verses 100,000 talents. i will look into it.

Im going to watch this Zeitgeist movie and i will se how we view it different.

Im surprised you never watched that it's right up your alley part 2 is about 9/11 cuke theories- and it proves that moses jesus etc.. never existed. you know all that stuff muslims believe.

If you have adhd yeah sure.

Hmm

His not the best writer of AC, but he is decent.

Decent at lying

Wouldnt you, 2 debater against you + a room full of Christian who attack you.

I wouldnt be surprised if osama had that planned out- in any case i would never attack anyones family i do insult back if im insulted- believe me my family has been insulted by several muslims online- i do insult them but never against their families they might have good families it is not their childrens or wives fault for how they are.

Not using words like Sam did.

Now we are back at what words is worse

This is so juvenile

Ohh?

Ohh YES


[

yes you hate naik because he rips your bible apart

No because he is a compuldive deliberate liar.

[kaimana1]

Anyways Kai i am traveling to Gibraltar, so i wont be online much. So dont get any ideas that a ran away or i am playing games like you did when i was banned

Ghaith you don't have anything to prove to me regarding why you are running JUST KIDDING But you can't blame me for that it doesnt seem right- after you were banned you should have came on as a guest to see post by ariel to me on same thread but you didnt for more than two weeks. not only that when you came on as jonah they could have zapped you by your third post


I doubt you were banned for the reasons i stated above-

[Ghaith]

I have work and a family- so, i post when i can.

No summer in ..... where every you live what every you do.

Ghaith you are missing the point entirely saying mary at all is wrong- all the quran had to do was say do not take the ruh as a god with allah-First of all show where the quran calls jesus the first and the last- and the beginning and the ending?

This is not my point kai, i agree 100% that the translators tought the Quran said Mary was a part of the trinty. But when i read it in Arabic it doesnt give any impression at all. Min Dooni if you know what that means, means without. So clearly Quran is talking about whoever worships Jesus and/or Mary as Gods. Catholics are a perfect exampel.

Correction- it's coming from a guy who knows the black rock is worshipped by muslims- they do it five times a day every day (devout muslims anyways)

That just disrespectfull what wrong with having a Qibla? Unlike christians who worship idols that goes against Exodus 20:4 . But i guess the Jewish Pagan Paul fixed that problem.

Not really- you mean like the supposed virgin birth? ha haa

Crucifixion.

It is called zeitgeist the movie it has three parts.

Still havent gotten around to it.

Not at all Ghaith, i am denying the silly loony crackpot theories regarding them like the pyramid with one eye symbol- Beneath it are the words, novus ordo seclorum, which translate as "A new order of the ages. It does not mean "a new world order," as has been alleged by those crazy crackpots- . (New world order would be written as novus ordo mundi

Crackpot theories. Like the nr 13?

Are you sure?

Yes let us just finish this sub topics first.

Yeah- some muslims are at least somewhat honest out there.

Muslims are good people Kai.

A fraudulent person like zakir naik does not deserve any respect.

And i guess the Christian clown that tought that Ezekiel prophecy being fullfield in the Lebanon war 2006 are better? Or how they twist 300 verses in the OT to make it talk about Messiah?

Talking in shock huh

I hope you dont think he was calling Jesus god.

You are very selective with those blindfolds on called wishful thinking.

There's no guarantee that the stone the green grocers returned to mecca was the same one they took. with that being said there's word out there that the stone was taken and destroyed by wahabis in 1700s.

And you call people crackpot consptheo

The muslims who accept it are in deep denial- it shouldnt even be an issue up for debate the lisan al arab dictionary is very clear on the matter

Seeing how there was no gramar before the Quran. A dictionary isnt worth using.

So the zionists are so desperate and believe sam is so horrible they still let him write the plurality of articles on AI- Ghaith you know how silly that all sounds?

Go do a google search on who pays the bill for AI. Robert Spencer and other clowns.

Hmm so the meanings of allahs words change every so few years?

Nope, the quran gets clearer over the years. Like all those Miracles that you christians hate.

ahmed ali had his published in 1984
revised in 2001
muhammad asad had his in 1980

abdel haleems was in 2004

Syed Vickar Ahamed in 2007

aisha bewley shes sufi had hers published in 1999

you know shakir had his in 1982 his first edition with his most recent edition in 2005

You know hilali and mushin khans and ali unals alis was done in 2006 khans in 1999

Those are all new compared to yusuf alis and pickthalls

Original numbers not revised.

From the perspective of the torah those jews who do that are wall worshippers

Christian are the biggest idol worshippers. Even to you are agnoustic you shouldnt bring this up for the shame your brothers are doing.

No its coming from a guy who knows catholics dont say they worship mary kind of like muslims who say they dont worship there stone but bow to it every day.

Nah catholics worship Mary. Just like they worship the sun and other pagan gods. Like baby Nimrod.

BTW Why not ahmed ibn hanbal or abi dawud or malik ibn anas god didnt care about their works?

Did god miraclous heal them after a dream?

Sure buddy

Come on Kai you have studied Islam more than i have walked on this planet. Surly you know about how Bukhari did his work.

Who are these nazareth jews? you mean messianic jews? those guys believe in trinity

Nope not messianic. Nazareth Jews acctual hate messianic jews and call them wolf is sheep cloathing. I belive their real name are Nazarenes, i just regard one of them told me he liked being called Jew. Im sure you heard of the Church of the Nazarene.

ealize is the fact that josephus being familiar with some of the christian books show that the gospel accounts and james was in existence in the middle of the first century.

But go on i do find it amusing to see a muslim trying to disprove the existence of the 2nd greatest prophet of islam.

Not disproving i am saying there is not Historical evidence. Josephus had no knowledge of the bible. And one cannot cherry pick passages from his book. Pliny younger that is authentic shows us Christians where pagans. And never mentions that Christos(Messiah) was Jesus.

Wrong- the quote from pliny is viewed as spurios that is fact.

Fact... Lol where did you get that from?

Ghaith ibn kathir was much closer to time of quran and understood the meanings of those verses.

Nah dont think so Kai.

No, otherwise they would have never been superior to those that disbelieved. its referencing christians the same christians of egypt arabia ethiopia that believed in trinity.

Ive told you superior can mean alot of things Kai. Christians are not followers of Jesus.

Sure like the battle of uhud- and what about all those miraculous battles genghis khan won in the 1200s. etc...

Matter infact Muhammad predicted Genghis khan. And battle of uhud was 1 loss. How about all the wins Kai.

Because the ottomans began their decline in the late 1500s they never gained territory after early 1600s-

Hmm.

Sounds more like you hammering a square peg into a circle hole.

Nah Kai its all good. Just you who thinks translators are wise people and cannot make mistakes.

no i didnt 61:14 wouldnt make any sense then Ghaith it doesnt say for a couple of years your followers will be uppermost. it says they will be uppermost period and it goes with 3:55 thats a perfect fit in puzzle

3:55 is talking about Muslims of the time of Jesus (deciples etc), and Muslims of today who do indeed follow Jesus. Christians are not followers of Jesus.
Matter infact 61:14 says Children of Israel not Romans.

muhammad was a bisexual.

What?!??! I hope your not going to give me those weak hadiths of him and his grandson. I can proof Paul was a homosexual you cannot prove Muhammad was Bi. If Muhammad was a false prophet he could make any rules he wanted. He said kill those who do whatever the the people of Lut did. Please show respect and dont go to those weak hadiths.

BS Ghaith the christians always believed jesus was son of god even the non trinitarians like the arians- it didnt happen during mos lifetime- that is ridiculous.

You misunderstood me. Son of God was way way older than Prophet Muhammads time. But in the time of Jesus no1 belived he was son of God.This came much later.Matter infact he was Son of Man. Not God. And we can study the Gospels and se how the lies evolved.

Jews never have believed ezra was the son of god the encyclopedia judaica article that many muslims post on their website is entirely out of context-

They did. I have personaly heard a jew say it before. And if Jews never belived it. Than why didnt any 1 object to this in Prophet Muhammads time. Christians came running when they misunderstood the Sister of Aaron claim. No Jews came running. matter infact many Jews converted. Regardles of what encyclopedia judaica says.

Huh No roman mithraism didnt even get in the picture until 75 or more years after paul died

We get to Paul later. Even to it didnt get 75 years later. They knew what the persians did belive.

Ghaith you just exposed your own ignorance again- almost every christian calls the four gospel accounts as one gospel and the epistles supplement the gospels therefore, it is seen as ONE GOSPEL that is fact same with torah technically it is only first five books but the prophets had their basis on torah so the tanakh or ot can be seen as THE TORAH

The 4 Gospel.WHO WROTE THE 4 GOSPELS KAI!??!?!? AND WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER 20 GOSPELSSS?!!?!?!? Show me how Paul even knew about these 4 Gospels.

For arguments sake- lets say its not spurious- pliny was not a christian- what do you expect him to say about christians or jesus?
[/quote
So because he is exposing Chrisians. You are saying he would lie because he was not a Christian?

No you don't! if thats the case catholics and orthodoax believe they have the bones of various apostles of jesus.

Yes Muslims do Kai.

Just like any1 who denies the existence of a historical jesus

There is no historical Jesus Kai.

I belive no need to comment on the Muhammad case as i provided irefuteble case that he existed. Also on the Petra case we wll se what the other hundreds of thousands manuscripts says.

it would be easy for a skeptic to say the chains were made up!

Its easy to say anything Kai.

I wouldnt be surprised if osama had that planned out- in any case i would never attack anyones family i do insult back if im insulted- believe me my family has been insulted by several muslims online- i do insult them but never against their families they might have good families it is not their childrens or wives fault for how they are.

hmm.

No because he is a compuldive deliberate liar.

LOL, wishfull Christian thinking.

Ghaith you don't have anything to prove to me regarding why you are running JUST KIDDING But you can't blame me for that it doesnt seem right- after you were banned you should have came on as a guest to see post by ariel to me on same thread but you didnt for more than two weeks. not only that when you came on as jonah they could have zapped you by your third post

I tought told you i had exams? I was never planning on comming back. Debating with atheist was boring. Main reason i wanted to come back was to acctualy ask you what your tought was about the Vaticans Catholic Muhammad claim was if you heard about it. I never got around to that yet.

[kaimana1]

This is not my point kai, i agree 100% that the translators tought the Quran said Mary was a part of the trinty. But when i read it in Arabic it doesnt give any impression at all. Min Dooni if you know what that means, means without. So clearly Quran is talking about whoever worships Jesus and/or Mary as Gods. Catholics are a perfect exampel.

let me give use an angle that might clear this up for you- the reason min dooni cant possibly mean without allah is because if it said without then that would imply worshipping jesus and mary as gods WITH ALLAH is okay- got it?

That just disrespectfull what wrong with having a Qibla? Unlike christians who worship idols that goes against Exodus 20:4 . But i guess the Jewish Pagan Paul fixed that problem.

Muslims worshipping idols also goes against exodus 20:4 show me one passage where paul says to worship idols?!!

Crucifixion.

Show me hard evidence that horus was cricified achrya is not hard evidence I guarantee you will can not find no references to Horus EVER dying- until he later becomes merged with Re the Sun god, after which he 'dies' and is 'reborn' every single day as the sun rises. And even in this 'death', there is no reference to a tomb anywhere.

Crackpot theories. Like the nr 13?

Nr 13 ??

Yes let us just finish this sub topics first.

Whatever suits you Ghaith.

Muslims are good people Kai.

I agree Ghaith there are many good people that are muslims- they are just misguided- i hate to see them waste their lives on such nonsense.

And i guess the Christian clown that tought that Ezekiel prophecy being fullfield in the Lebanon war 2006 are better?

Of course theres fraudulent christian clowns too no doubt about it yos- but zakir naik and deedat are and were (in case of deedat) some of the biggest frauds around.

Or how they twist 300 verses in the OT to make it talk about Messiah?

Hmmm so now you are calling allah and muhammad a liar again yos- i was going to post some quran verses here showing that jesus is messiah- especially the one where jesus came to confirm the torah but i think you know they exist so do i have to?

Also do you understand how ridiculous it is for muslims to make this argument that the ot doesnt confirm jesus. Many jews do that because they dont believe jesus was messiah.

I hope you dont think he was calling Jesus god.

Being a jehovahs witness the first 18 years of my life - with my parents still jws to this day- i can say i know this issue well.

And the argument that thomas was shocked and said my lord and my GOD is a weak argument- god or elah or eloah is a title word it was used for kings even moses like exodus 4:16 and the verse where God tells moses "im going to make you a god unto pharoah"
in any case at seeing the risen Christ Thomas recognized that Jesus was now the divine king and so the designation "My God and my Lord" was entirely appropriate. Yet, this in no way meant Thomas thought Jesus was almighty God any more than Israel's human kings were Yhwh almighty GOD just because they were also addressed as "God."

:lol:

I agree

And you call people crackpot consptheo

that is a reasonable theory

]

Seeing how there was no gramar before the Quran. A dictionary isnt worth using.

Wrong- if that was the case then how did uthman standardize the quran (supposedly)? prove that arabic wasnt in written form before quran

Go do a google search on who pays the bill for AI. Robert Spencer and other clowns.

Let's see im getting a christian group called the barnabas fund donates to them- perhaps david horowitz (your zionist nightmare) does a little

Nope, the quran gets clearer over the years. Like all those Miracles that you christians hate.

LOL no the miracles get read into the quran In fact anyone with a good understanding of the style and method of the Qur'an will know that references to nature and creation are used as devices to amaze and impress the audience- To exhort them to believe & worship their creator. Usually the references are to phenomena the Arabs could see for themselves or were aware of and often start with the words "Have you not seen?" They basically run like this- "Look at this marvellous thing - well God did it - see how great and powerful he is - so believe in him, thank him, fear him, worship him and praise him."

In other words Ghaith they are not scientific miracles left in the Qur'an to be discovered 1400 years later like some sort of coded message for a handful of eagle-eyed Muslims with a science text book in one hand and a Qur'an in the other.

Original numbers not revised.

I showed you the originals on most of them- besides a revision is a re-editing didnt you know that? anyways muhammad asad made his translation in 1980 mushin khan completed his work in 1996 abdel haleem ORIGINALLY published his in 2007 etc... yusuf ali and pickthalls are the oldest translations in use today.

Christian are the biggest idol worshippers. Even to you are agnoustic you shouldnt bring this up for the shame your brothers are doing.

Muslims are the biggest idol worshippers actually five times a day everyday.

Nah catholics worship Mary. Just like they worship the sun and other pagan gods. Like baby Nimrod.

Did god miraclous heal them after a dream?

It's utter rubbish Ghaith

Come on Kai you have studied Islam more than i have walked on this planet. Surly you know about how Bukhari did his work.

Are you serious Ghaith?

Nope not messianic. Nazareth Jews acctual hate messianic jews and call them wolf is sheep cloathing. I belive their real name are Nazarenes, i just regard one of them told me he liked being called Jew. Im sure you heard of the Church of the Nazarene.

I sure have- this is their website http://nazarene.org/ministries/administration/visitorcenter/questions/display.html

And in their faq they say this Answers to Frequently Asked Questions

What do Nazarenes believe about God?

As part of the Christian community, Nazarenes understand that there is one God, who has always existed and will always exist (Deuteronomy 6:4). We believe that He is creative (Genesis 1; Isaiah 40:25-26) and holy (Leviticus 19:2; Isaiah 5:16, 6:1-7) and that His purposes are carried out in this world (Jeremiah 29:11; Acts 1:6-7).

We also understand that God's nature is "three-fold": Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19-20; 2 Corinthians 13:14). This concept of God's three-fold nature, the Trinity, was understood by the early Christian Church as the best way to explain what they had experienced. They knew from their Jewish roots that there is only one God, but they also knew that Jesus acted as if He were God.

[/quote]

ealize is the fact that josephus being familiar with some of the christian books show that the gospel accounts and james was in existence in the middle of the first century.

Not disproving i am saying there is not Historical evidence

.
Ive showed you more then once
J

phus had no knowledge of the bible. And one cannot cherry pick passages from his book.

One can certainly take passages out of his book referring to christ and christians

Pliny younger that is authentic shows us Christians where pagans. And never mentions that Christos(Messiah) was Jesus.

No it just shows that he held alot of contempt for christians AND serapis worshippers

[

Fact... Lol where did you get that from?

Certainly not the jesus myth bunch

Nah dont think so Kai.

Now you are just being AMUSINGLY Stubborn

Ive told you superior can mean alot of things Kai. Christians are not followers of Jesus.

Yes they were according to quran

Matter infact Muhammad predicted Genghis khan

More gibberish Ghaith
.

And battle of uhud was 1 loss. How about all the wins Kai.

What about all the wins of genghis khan or of classical rome?

Hmm.

LMAO

Nah Kai its all good. Just you who thinks translators are wise people and cannot make mistakes.

No Ghaith they make all sorts of mistakes- they always use their wishful thinking on various verses.

3:55 is talking about Muslims of the time of Jesus (deciples etc), and Muslims of today who do indeed follow Jesus. Christians are not followers of Jesus.
Matter infact 61:14 says Children of Israel not Romans.

If that is the case then the passage is worthless because they were never uppermost to their enemies.in jesus day or after

Yes when jesus was on earth in judea - what nation was judea a part of? so coptic christians and other christians at that time were never christians or ahlekitab LOL

What?!??! I hope your not going to give me those weak hadiths of him and his grandson. I can proof Paul was a homosexual you cannot prove Muhammad was Bi. If Muhammad was a false prophet he could make any rules he wanted. He said kill those who do whatever the the people of Lut did. Please show respect and dont go to those weak hadiths.

You can not proof paul a homosexual anymore then i can prove muhammad a bisexual- and mo did make any rule he wanted

You misunderstood me. Son of God was way way older than Prophet Muhammads time. But in the time of Jesus no1 belived he was son of God.This came much later.Matter infact he was Son of Man. Not God. And we can study the Gospels and se how the lies evolved.

And what is son of man refering to in gospels Ghaith?

They did. I have personaly heard a jew say it before.

Bs you heard a jew say that ezra was THE son of god???

And if Jews never belived it. Than why didnt any 1 object to this in Prophet Muhammads time.

Because when that verse was revealed after fall of mecca- there were no more jews in arabia in a position of power anyways.

Christians came running when they misunderstood the Sister of Aaron claim. No Jews came running.

You mean when they caught mo LOL Yeah no jews were running because they were subdued and were not in a position to question anything unlike the christians of najran

matter infact many Jews converted. Regardles of what encyclopedia judaica says.

Some jews converted most never did- which is why mo held them in contempt when he had power

[

We get to Paul later. Even to it didnt get 75 years later. They knew what the persians did belive

.

No persian mithraism is much different then roman mithraism

The 4 Gospel.WHO WROTE THE 4 GOSPELS KAI!

Well, matthew mark luke and john

AND WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER 20 GOSPELSSS?!!?!?!?

I already answered that- read my post again!

Show me how Paul even knew about these 4 Gospels.

I will tommorow

So because he is exposing Chrisians. You are saying he would lie because he was not a Christian?

Exposing christians?!?!?! lol NO Ghaith

Yes Muslims do Kai.

Oh boy one day you will mature!

There is no historical Jesus Kai.

You are in DENIAL what else can i say?

I belive no need to comment on the Muhammad case as i provided irefuteble case that he existed.

Irrefutable HUH LOL

Also on the Petra case we wll se what the other hundreds of thousands manuscripts says.

Actually it wasnt based on one or a few papyrii Ghaith it was based on ALL of what she studied. sorry Ghaith

Its easy to say anything Kai.

Exactly!! that is my point.

hmm.

HMM what??

LOL, wishfull FACTUAL thinking.

Thank you

I tought told you i had exams? I was never planning on comming back

.
Yes you did but i didnt know you never planned on never coming

Main reason i wanted to come back was to acctualy ask you what your tought was about the Vaticans Catholic Muhammad claim was if you heard about it.

Really? well im tired now but i will give thoughts about it tommorow

[Ghaith]

let me give use an angle that might clear this up for you- the reason min dooni cant possibly mean without allah is because if it said without then that would imply worshipping jesus and mary as gods WITH ALLAH is okay- got it?

Jesus and mary as gods without Allah. What is the problem Kai?

Muslims worshipping idols also goes against exodus 20:4 show me one passage where paul says to worship idols?!!

Muslims dont worship Idols. Why dont you read exodus 20:4. What i mean about Paul was that he denied the laws.

Show me hard evidence that horus was cricified achrya is not hard evidence I guarantee you will can not find no references to Horus EVER dying- until he later becomes merged with Re the Sun god, after which he 'dies' and is 'reborn' every single day as the sun rises. And even in this 'death', there is no reference to a tomb anywhere.

The sources are weak i cant deny that. But atleast we have something there.

Nr 13 ??

As in 13 layer pyramid?

Whatever suits you Ghaith.

Thank you kai the first thing i want to do after this sub topics is debate Josephus. Im going to show you that your wishful thinking of a historical Jesus is ussless and will only break your heart once i destroy it Maybe not destroy it but atleast make you feel different about it.

I agree Ghaith there are many good people that are muslims- they are just misguided- i hate to see them waste their lives on such nonsense.

I also hate to se a wise man like your self wasting your life on being an agnoustic pagan.

Of course theres fraudulent christian clowns too no doubt about it yos- but zakir naik and deedat are and were (in case of deedat) some of the biggest frauds around.

I dont really se what problem you have with Deedat. Ive only seen him in 1 debate with Swaggart and he didnt use any lies. Im more of a Shabir Ally fan than Zakir Naik but im going to watch some of his vids to se why you are showing such negativ energy

Hmmm so now you are calling allah and muhammad a liar again yos- i was going to post some quran verses here showing that jesus is messiah- especially the one where jesus came to confirm the torah but i think you know they exist so do i have to?

Also do you understand how ridiculous it is for muslims to make this argument that the ot doesnt confirm jesus. Many jews do that because they dont believe jesus was messiah.

You misunderstood me Kai. Never put words in my mouth i dislike that. I am telling you how they twisted 300 OT verses making it talking about The Messiah Jesus and him being son of God. I know Jesus is the Messiah -.-

Being a jehovahs witness the first 18 years of my life - with my parents still jws to this day- i can say i know this issue well.

And the argument that thomas was shocked and said my lord and my GOD is a weak argument- god or elah or eloah is a title word it was used for kings even moses like exodus 4:16 and the verse where God tells moses "im going to make you a god unto pharoah"
in any case at seeing the risen Christ Thomas recognized that Jesus was now the divine king and so the designation "My God and my Lord" was entirely appropriate. Yet, this in no way meant Thomas thought Jesus was almighty God any more than Israel's human kings were Yhwh almighty GOD just because they were also addressed as "God

Im i smelling a trinitarian kai out there?

that is a reasonable theory

Seeing how Mecca is full 24/7 i really wonder how they got the time to destroy it. Also why on earth would they do that.

Wrong- if that was the case then how did uthman standardize the quran (supposedly)? prove that arabic wasnt in written form before quran

Im not saying it wasnt in a written form. Kufic did exist. I am saying the arabic language it self was well "coded" out of the Quran.

Let's see im getting a christian group called the barnabas fund donates to them- perhaps david horowitz (your zionist nightmare) does a little

A "little"

LOL no the miracles get read into the quran In fact anyone with a good understanding of the style and method of the Qur'an will know that references to nature and creation are used as devices to amaze and impress the audience- To exhort them to believe & worship their creator. Usually the references are to phenomena the Arabs could see for themselves or were aware of and often start with the words "Have you not seen?" They basically run like this- "Look at this marvellous thing - well God did it - see how great and powerful he is - so believe in him, thank him, fear him, worship him and praise him."

In other words Ghaith they are not scientific miracles left in the Qur'an to be discovered 1400 years later like some sort of coded message for a handful of eagle-eyed Muslims with a science text book in one hand and a Qur'an in the othe

As i said as you Christian hate. Im sure there are some science in bible like rumiant rabbit, dragons and Unicorns?

I showed you the originals on most of them- besides a revision is a re-editing didnt you know that?

Not edited as complete changed.

anyways muhammad asad made his translation in 1980 mushin khan completed his work in 1996 abdel haleem ORIGINALLY published his in 2007 etc... yusuf ali and pickthalls are the oldest translations in use today.

I gotta se this Abdel Haleem translation. Mushin Khan is more of a tafsir translation i got to say.

Muslims are the biggest idol worshippers actually five times a day everyday.

Again what is wrong with having a Qibla?

It's utter rubbish Ghaith

Ohh?

Are you serious Ghaith?

Yes. Dont you know how he collected hadiths? And how he got tested?

Any ways im going out i send you your part 2 when i come back.

[kaimana1]

Jesus and mary as gods without Allah. What is the problem Kai?

Because allah being third of three wouldnt be a bad thing.

Muslims dont worship Idols. Why dont you read exodus 20:4.

I have yos- and yes muslims worship an idol everyday i dont know what else to tell you

What i mean about Paul was that he denied the laws.

Paul emphasized that the law was in your heart like for example circumcision etc... and he taught how jesus new covenant put the law in ones heart.

The sources are weak i cant deny that. But atleast we have something there.

Something huh?

As in 13 layer pyramid?

Yeah thats whacked conspiracy nonsense too

Thank you kai the first thing i want to do after this sub topics is debate Josephus

Don't you see how hypocritical that is you are going to use jesus myth material to show that jesus never existed most EXPERTS in field christian and NON christian believe in historical jesus partially based on josephus works.
.

Im going to show you that your wishful thinking of a historical Jesus is ussless and will only break your heart once i destroy it Maybe not destroy it but atleast make you feel different about it.

Ive heard the arguments before they are as credible as the arguments about muhammad existing.

I also hate to se a wise man like your self wasting your life on being an agnoustic pagan.

Its AGNOSTIC yos- No im not wiccan or pagan

I dont really se what problem you have with Deedat. Ive only seen him in 1 debate with Swaggart and he didnt use any lies. Im more of a Shabir Ally fan than Zakir Naik but im going to watch some of his vids to se why you are showing such negativ energy

So you never heard of deedats other debates like with anis shorrosh ??? what about his books have you read his books? Probably not because he propogated the yusuf ali translation more than anything.

You misunderstood me Kai. Never put words in my mouth i dislike that.

I didnt Ghaith i knew where you were going- it's as simple as that i have debated many muslims about ot verses that are seen as predicting jesus as the messiah and muslims use the jewish arguments to destroy them (in their minds)

I am telling you how they twisted 300 OT verses making it talking about The Messiah Jesus and him being son of God. I know Jesus is the Messiah

Yes the messiah jesus and it was always understood that he would be the unique son of god

Im i smelling a trinitarian kai out there?

Why would you smell that?

Seeing how Mecca is full 24/7 i really wonder how they got the time to destroy it. Also why on earth would they do that.

Mecca is full 24/7 now but not in the 1700s during wars between ottomans and wahabis especially, during tenth century the green grocers littered the zamzam springs with dead bodies. the green grocers believed the normal muslims .

Im not saying it wasnt in a written form. Kufic did exist. I am saying the arabic language it self was well "coded" out of the Quran.

Not nearly as much as many dawahgandists claim though

A "little"

Yeah

Code: Select all

As i said as you Christian hate. Im sure there are some science in bible like rumiant rabbit, dragons and Unicorns?

Rumiant rabbit we will get into this later as for dragons and unicorns that was an translation issue in translations like king james

Not edited as complete changed

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Of course not complete change but you are ignoring the original dates of these qurans- remember when you said khalifas was newest?? thats BS

I gotta se this Abdel Haleem translation. Mushin Khan is more of a tafsir translation i got to say.

Haleems is on islamawakened.com yes not only hilali and khan uses tafsir and hadees alot so does muhammad asad and many others for that matter

Again what is wrong with having a Qibla?

If you are going to believe in god then you should be able to pray to him anywhere not in a direction or some other manmade tradition.

Ohh?

Yep

Yes. Dont you know how he collected hadiths? And how he got tested?

Theres different stories how that happened.

Any ways im going out i send you your part 2 when i come back

Il get to that later today or tonight.