Comments : Abrogation in the quran. Mesmorial vs Skynightbl

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Gauge123
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Comments : Abrogation in the quran. Mesmorial vs Skynightbl

Post by Gauge123 »

I think Blaze has got you in Check or Checkmate MesMorial. Please do not pretend otherwise. It doesn't wash mate.

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Gauge123
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Re: Mesmorial vs Skynightblaze- Abrogation in the quran

Post by Gauge123 »

Let us establish some parameters for the exchange:

1. Do you take the "revelation" in the Quran as immutably true and the word of God?

2. Was this always the case or only in it's final form?
“Skynightblaze” needs to re-read my last response and explain how abrogation can exist in the Qur’an when “substitute” means to replace (2), not override. The substitution of verses means that one verse would disappear and the other take its place, making it impossible for abrogation to be present inside the Qur’an itself. As I have explained, we are talking about the substitution of verses, not the laws of the verses.
(2) voids any argument you wish to profer if you answered no to the final form in question 2 i.e. the Quran was perfect at every stage of revelation. If so, then what required the replacement of verses? Non-sequitur.

If you say it's it perfect only in it's final form, it means the Quran was imperfect in it's development...with only the possibility of perfection in it's final form.

Now, addressing question 1, if the Quran is perfect in it's final form, and IF you required evolution to make it so, then the revealer is also subject to time and evolution too.

Of course, if your answer to 1 is no, then there is no argument.

If it is yes, you must ask yourself this question. Why did God in his revelation to Muhammad indulge in partial truths in the course of revelation? If so, how many partial truths were indulged in? How much more of the Quran needs to be "replaced" in order to achieve perfection?

MesmericMorals...please face the truth. The Quran is a fairy tale revealed by a far from exemplary human being.

To summarise:
1 Yes
2 Yes, in it's final form
=> God of the Quran is imperfect and subject to time and evolution

1 Yes
2 Yes, perfect at every stage
=> God of the Quran is imperfect and worse, illogical. He improves on the perfect...not knowing what perfection is...subject to time and perception. A very human God

1. No

No argument. It's just another story. Metaphor to be interpreted. That's okay...in it's good parts.

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MesMorial
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Re: Mesmorial vs Skynightblaze- Abrogation in the quran

Post by MesMorial »

@ Gauge

I never claimed that Allah (SWT) abrogated ayat under any circumstance. SKB is forced into the position where there is no abrogation present these days. As I said I have no reason to believe there was ever abrogation.

I will request the moderators to remove your posts.
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Gauge123
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Re: Mesmorial vs Skynightblaze- Abrogation in the quran

Post by Gauge123 »

As you wish..I forgot this is one on one. My apologies.

Do remove my posts...but please bear my argument.

p.s. I quoted your post and nowhere did I mention abrogation. Only replacement, as you coined it.

Let's establish at least one fact before I get obliterated from this thread. You contend there have been no "replacements" in the Quran?

Despite the ahadith stating so?

Even iif you ignore that...The Quran saying "we" (Allah in plural...or Allah and Muhhammad...or Allah, Muhammad and Gabriel...) in reference to it's own revelation in scripture?
16:101
When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

This is dishonest. Now go ahead and do what you have to...

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Re: Comments : Abrogation in the quran. Mesmorial vs Skynightbl

Post by MesMorial »

you can read many high quality hadith critiques here:
http://islam-and-muslims.com/islamic-books-online.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Strange parallels between Sunni/Shia and Judaism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_Torah" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Comments : Abrogation in the quran. Mesmorial vs Skynightbl

Post by ygalg »

dear Skynightblaze mistaken
there is no explicit in the Christian bible that jesus is god. there are branches in christianity that disagree on that account. they agree however that jesus is the messiah and the son of god. for the father and the son to be same persona ... there is a disagreement.

I cannot grasp that indeed 16:101 speaks of different verses of Koran. to suggest there abrogations in Koran itself.

16:101
"If We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals, they say: Thou art but a forger most of them do not know"

16:103
"I know they say: Only a mortal teaches him the tongue, which is notably the outlandish, and this is clear Arabic"

the translators tried to hint it speaks of verses of Koran (look into the parenthesis of the verse 16:101 by different translators) to conceal contradictions which clearly perceivable.

in one verse people blames the author for forgery. what it really means copycatting.
16:103 of the Koran support this notion. when in this verse people blame the author for learning from human sources the foreign language. but it answers but they can see it is arabic. as supposedly to be logical defends against copycatting claim. which is lame.

but it leaves another problem replacing revelation for another and allah knows best let us to understand that there is no good reason for such act aside it is the will of god. allah changes his mind?

the ten commandments are firm laws that were inscribed in stone tablets. the message in the bible is clear when moses broke the first tablets and brought another the laws were same as in the first. and here in Koran it suggest another character of god that is unknown. again the verse is clearly says revelation for another (revelation)
it disqualifies the notion of corrupted text. it simply suggesting god changes his mind.

I agree with MesMorial that it is not directed to verses of Koran but to biblical scriptures (Torah and the gospel etc)

however Skynightblaze suggestion of contradiction between 2:4 and 3:85 is the correct one. and it lift out defence on any contradiction in Koran that found.

the author of Koran tried to cork any loopholes could be found in Koran. but unfortunate by doing that he created another.
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MesMorial
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Re: Comments : Abrogation in the quran. Mesmorial vs Skynightbl

Post by MesMorial »

Dear ygalg;

Can you please elaborate on the contradiction between 2:4 and 3:85.
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Re: Comments : Abrogation in the quran. Mesmorial vs Skynightbl

Post by The Cat »

As usual, snb build his case upon a wrong premise
skynightblaze wrote:Ayatan means verse and not scripture so essentially quran is talking about itself and not other scriptures.
Well there are at least four different meanings to it:
A miracle (17.101); An example to take heed from (25.37); A sign (19.10); A revealed verse (or message, 38.29).

In my study over the name of 'Isa' in the Koran, I came to these reflections:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8769" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

**Ayatin (translated: sign, portent, tokens).
Means a probing act of creation, in opposition to the signs (6.37) asked by doubters (5.111/4). Could be translated as a manifest miracle,
in opposition to an act of human magic or prestidigitation. The differences are underlined in 43.47-48: ''But when he brought them Our
tokens (āyātinā), behold! they laughed at them. And every token (Āyatin) that We showed them was greater than its sister.
''

23.50: And We made the son (Abna) of Mary and his mother a portent (Āyatan**)...

The Koran, trees and stars are such signs. On the meaning of Ayatin, 30.20-27 are very informative...
up to 30.46: And of His signs (Ayâtihi) is this: He sendeth herald winds to make you taste His mercy....

3.50:
And confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you.
I come unto you with a sign from your Lord (Bi'āyatin Min Rabbikum), so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.


2.106: Nothing of our revelation (Āyatin) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten....
Yusuf Ali explains, in his commentaries, the term "aayatin": ''What is the meaning here? If we take it in a general sense, it means
that God's Message from age to age is always the same, but that its form may differ according to the needs and exigencies of the
time. That form was different as given to Moses and then to Jesus and then to Muhammad.
''

A post of mine, over a year ago, on the abrogations...
viewtopic.php?p=104171#p104171" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thus the abrogations refer us to the previous scriptures abrogated by the Arabic Koran (much like Jesus did in 3.49-50, or Mat.5).

This truthful concept was in turn ABROGATED by Imam Shafi'i, the patron saint of the Islamic Pharisees.
He wanted bowing sheeps, raised on imitation rather than knowledge, so he couldn't bear verses like 10.94:
And if thou art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee,
then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(tafsir" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Even in the hadiths, I don't think there's one single instance where Muhammad said that some Koranic verse was abrogated by another...
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

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skynightblaze
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Re: Comments : Abrogation in the quran. Mesmorial vs Skynightbl

Post by skynightblaze »

Ygalg wrote:I agree with MesMorial that it is not directed to verses of Koran but to biblical scriptures (Torah and the gospel etc)
If you read the tafsir for the verses in question these verses are directed towards pagans and not christians or jews.Even the surrouding verses make it clear that these verses talk about pagans and not christians or jews. Now Mesmorial is desperately clutching straws and his new argument that it makes no difference even if its pagans shall be crushed easily. I shall prove now that its talking about quran itself and not about any other scripture.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Re: Comments : Abrogation in the quran. Mesmorial vs Skynightbl

Post by ygalg »

MesMorial wrote:Dear ygalg;

Can you please elaborate on the contradiction between 2:4 and 3:85.
I missed the verse 3:84 which is similar but more elaborating

2:4
And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and have the assurance of the Hereafter.

3:84
"Say: We believe in God and revealed to us and revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that given to Moses, Jesus and the prophets from their Lord, do not differentiate between one of them and we are a Muslim"

3:85
"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam will not accept it, a loser in the Hereafter"

all revelation prescribed to one religion; islam. at least that is the stand in Koran. thus even judaism and christianity are considered islam. tho it doesn't explicit say that. except define the personages as muslims that hints to that direction. but it void the contradiction which I suspect exist. but raises another. and that return us to 16:101

where it says
"We substitute one revelation for another" thus it voids the previous revelations. thus you cannot be firm with previous revelations. you cannot place your faith on them. but verses (2:4 and 3:84) suggest to do that. to be firm with previous voided revelations.

furthermore it does not support corrupted text claim. as it clearly saying revelation substitute. a word of god by another word of god. not a word of god by distorted word of god...

the corrupted text claim came I presume later on. Koran does not support the claim. however due to contradictions that exist the translators deliberately as devote apologist do try to whitewash by saying that 16:101 suggest Koranic verses.

so jews are muslims and christians are muslims?
“a true believer as a person so fanatically committed to a cause that no amount of reality can make him abandon it” Eric Hoffer

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skynightblaze
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Re: Comments : Abrogation in the quran. Mesmorial vs Skynightbl

Post by skynightblaze »

The Cat wrote:As usual, snb build his case upon a wrong premise
skynightblaze wrote:Ayatan means verse and not scripture so essentially quran is talking about itself and not other scriptures.
Well there are at least four different meanings to it:
A miracle (17.101); An example to take heed from (25.37); A sign (19.10); A revealed verse (or message, 38.29).

In my study over the name of 'Isa' in the Koran, I came to these reflections:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8769" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

**Ayatin (translated: sign, portent, tokens).
Means a probing act of creation, in opposition to the signs (6.37) asked by doubters (5.111/4). Could be translated as a manifest miracle,
in opposition to an act of human magic or prestidigitation. The differences are underlined in 43.47-48: ''But when he brought them Our
tokens (āyātinā), behold! they laughed at them. And every token (Āyatin) that We showed them was greater than its sister.
''

23.50: And We made the son (Abna) of Mary and his mother a portent (Āyatan**)...

The Koran, trees and stars are such signs. On the meaning of Ayatin, 30.20-27 are very informative...
up to 30.46: And of His signs (Ayâtihi) is this: He sendeth herald winds to make you taste His mercy....

3.50:
And confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you.
I come unto you with a sign from your Lord (Bi'āyatin Min Rabbikum), so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.


2.106: Nothing of our revelation (Āyatin) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten....
Yusuf Ali explains, in his commentaries, the term "aayatin": ''What is the meaning here? If we take it in a general sense, it means
that God's Message from age to age is always the same, but that its form may differ according to the needs and exigencies of the
time. That form was different as given to Moses and then to Jesus and then to Muhammad.
''

A post of mine, over a year ago, on the abrogations...
viewtopic.php?p=104171#p104171" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thus the abrogations refer us to the previous scriptures abrogated by the Arabic Koran (much like Jesus did in 3.49-50, or Mat.5).

This truthful concept was in turn ABROGATED by Imam Shafi'i, the patron saint of the Islamic Pharisees.
He wanted bowing sheeps, raised on imitation rather than knowledge, so he couldn't bear verses like 10.94:
And if thou art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee,
then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(tafsir" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Even in the hadiths, I don't think there's one single instance where Muhammad said that some Koranic verse was abrogated by another...
Oh the messiah of quran alone muslims is back! :lol:

Let me refute in 3-5 lines. Many translators have used the word verses and not signs for AYAT. Anyway I aint an expert of arabic so I will stick with logic.. Quran itself confirm that Allah refrains from sending signs as people before it took them for jest so it cant be signs . More ever lets see from the verse it self..

[016:101]
And when we change one (sign) verse for another, and God knoweth best what He revealeth, they say,"Thou art only a fabricator." Nay! but most of them have no knowledge.

Why would a disbeliever accuse muhammad of forging signs ? How does this make sense?? Was Muhammad bringing any signs or showing any signs so that they accused him of fabrication??
Last edited by skynightblaze on Sat May 21, 2011 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Re: Comments : Abrogation in the quran. Mesmorial vs Skynightbl

Post by skynightblaze »

Ygalg wrote:where it says
"We substitute one revelation for another" thus it voids the previous revelations. thus you cannot be firm with previous revelations. you cannot place your faith on them. but verses (2:4 and 3:84) suggest to do that. to be firm with previous voided revelations.

furthermore it does not support corrupted text claim. as it clearly saying revelation substitute. a word of god by another word of god. not a word of god by distorted word of god...

the corrupted text claim came I presume later on. Koran does not support the claim. however due to contradictions that exist the translators deliberately as devote apologist do try to whitewash by saying that 16:101 suggest Koranic verses.

so jews are muslims and christians are muslims?
You got the contradiction right but I still dont see why is anyone supposed to consider the verse to be talking about substituting scriptures of jews and christians.

Secondly you also claimed Bible doesnt say jesus was GOd. You may be correct but I found a site where they have quoted verses that indeed talk of Jesus being GOd..What do you say about the following site?

http://www.bugman123.com/Bible/JesusIsGod.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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MesMorial
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Re: Comments : Abrogation in the quran. Mesmorial vs Skynightbl

Post by MesMorial »

Dear Ygalg;

There is no contradiction created. Allah (SWT) never named Jews "Jews" or Christians "Christians". They labelled themselves that:


"Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was [an] upright [man], a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists."

3:67


We were named "Muslims" from the start (22:78) and across the scriptures the Message remained the same. Some laws were abrogated (e.g. 6:145-46) but that does not mean that we cease to believe in the Message (the point) of all scriptures. We are obviously allowed to eat what was banned for them and they are allowed to eat was banned for them, but the Qur'an is consistent in that Muslims (whatever they call themselves) must uphold the Message of all scriptures.

Peace.
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Re: Comments : Abrogation in the quran. Mesmorial vs Skynightbl

Post by ygalg »

skynightblaze wrote:
Ygalg wrote:I agree with MesMorial that it is not directed to verses of Koran but to biblical scriptures (Torah and the gospel etc)
If you read the tafsir for the verses in question these verses are directed towards pagans and not christians or jews.Even the surrouding verses make it clear that these verses talk about pagans and not christians or jews. Now Mesmorial is desperately clutching straws and his new argument that it makes no difference even if its pagans shall be crushed easily. I shall prove now that its talking about quran itself and not about any other scripture.
can you point to me out to the tasfir address these verses in question I tried google out but unable to retrieve a result probably I made wrong words to search.

but I don't see why there is a need for tasfir, where it is clearly written substitute revelation to another and in along it also written you are but a forger

look at 3:84

"Say: We believe in God and revealed to us and revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that given to Moses, Jesus and the prophets from their Lord, do not differentiate between one of them and we are a Muslim"

it does not suggest believing in other revelations (pagans etc) except what is emphasized in that verse. these personages mentioned, represented certain revelation. according to Koran that would be the Torah the psalms and the gospel

now when it suggest substitute, it could not point out to pagans scriptures as it already rejected. it actually suggesting a replacement for what was accepted.

but you suggest it address the Koranic verses themselves as substitute. my impression the tasfir does what the translators did when they also suggested Koranic verses as defence against contradictions.

that is my opinion and I'm open for correction if I'm mistaken.
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Re: Comments : Abrogation in the quran. Mesmorial vs Skynightbl

Post by skynightblaze »

@Ygalg

I dont care whether Jesus is God or not as per bible or christians. Let us say you are correct. My claim was that if one must believe in previous scriptures then he must also believe in Jesus being GOd. IF you say Jesus was not GOd as per bible then muslims need to atleast believe that Jesus was the son of GOD . I don't think there is any issue among christians over jesus being son of GOd. The point I was trying to convey was that muslims need to believe teachings contradictory to Quran so be it son of GOd or GOd himself.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Re: Comments : Abrogation in the quran. Mesmorial vs Skynightbl

Post by skynightblaze »

ygalg wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:
Ygalg wrote:I agree with MesMorial that it is not directed to verses of Koran but to biblical scriptures (Torah and the gospel etc)
If you read the tafsir for the verses in question these verses are directed towards pagans and not christians or jews.Even the surrouding verses make it clear that these verses talk about pagans and not christians or jews. Now Mesmorial is desperately clutching straws and his new argument that it makes no difference even if its pagans shall be crushed easily. I shall prove now that its talking about quran itself and not about any other scripture.
can you point to me out to the tasfir address these verses in question I tried google out but unable to retrieve a result probably I made wrong words to search.

but I don't see why there is a need for tasfir, where it is clearly written substitute revelation to another and in along it also written you are but a forger

look at 3:84

"Say: We believe in God and revealed to us and revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that given to Moses, Jesus and the prophets from their Lord, do not differentiate between one of them and we are a Muslim"

it does not suggest believing in other revelations (pagans etc) except what is emphasized in that verse. these personages mentioned, represented certain revelation. according to Koran that would be the Torah the psalms and the gospel

now when it suggest substitute, it could not point out to pagans scriptures as it already rejected. it actually suggesting a replacement for what was accepted.

but you suggest it address the Koranic verses themselves as substitute. my impression the tasfir does what the translators did when they also suggested Koranic verses as defence against contradictions.

that is my opinion and I'm open for correction if I'm mistaken.
Here is the tafsir for you. The tafsir makes a mention of context and it doesnt just give the person opinion.
http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=16&tid=28221" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AS far substituting one revelation for another is concerned this can apply to quran also because every verse of quran is a revelation.

The verse 16:101 was referring to pagans claiming that Muhammad was forger because he substituted one verse of quran with other. Now its obvious that anyone is going to call muhammad a forger when they see him replacing verses in the quran because GOd would reveal the verses right in the first place.That's the context of the verse. THis is my opinion and again I to am open to correction.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Re: Comments : Abrogation in the quran. Mesmorial vs Skynightbl

Post by aceaxe2 »

I just want to reply to Cat's post , didn't want to butt in between SkB vs mesmorial
Cat wrote "...God's Message from age to age is always the same, but that its form may differ..."
Divorce : Moses allow it --> Jesus don't allow it --> Mohammed allow it
Was it same message ? :D
If someone believe commit crime in the name of god is divine act , then he not far from becoming a terrorist

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Re: Comments : Abrogation in the quran. Mesmorial vs Skynightbl

Post by ygalg »

skynightblaze wrote:
Ygalg wrote:where it says
"We substitute one revelation for another" thus it voids the previous revelations. thus you cannot be firm with previous revelations. you cannot place your faith on them. but verses (2:4 and 3:84) suggest to do that. to be firm with previous voided revelations.

furthermore it does not support corrupted text claim. as it clearly saying revelation substitute. a word of god by another word of god. not a word of god by distorted word of god...

the corrupted text claim came I presume later on. Koran does not support the claim. however due to contradictions that exist the translators deliberately as devote apologist do try to whitewash by saying that 16:101 suggest Koranic verses.

so jews are muslims and christians are muslims?
You got the contradiction right but I still dont see why is anyone supposed to consider the verse to be talking about substituting scriptures of jews and christians.

Secondly you also claimed Bible doesnt say jesus was GOd. You may be correct but I found a site where they have quoted verses that indeed talk of Jesus being GOd..What do you say about the following site?

http://www.bugman123.com/Bible/JesusIsGod.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
they also use the Jewish bible to justify it...lol

all but hints. no explicit saying jesus is god.

here an entire passage
22 That winter, Jesus was in Jerusalem for the Temple Festival. 23 One day he was walking in that part of the temple known as Solomon's Porch, [a] 24 and the people gathered all around him. They said, "How long are you going to keep us guessing? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly!" 25 Jesus answered:

I have told you, and you refused to believe me. The things I do by my Father's authority show who I am. 26 But since you are not my sheep, you don't believe me. 27 My sheep know my voice, and I know them. They follow me, 28 and I give them eternal life, so that they will never be lost. No one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father gave them to me, and he is greater than all others. No one can snatch them from his hands, 30 and I am one with the Father. 31 Once again the Jewish leaders picked up stones in order to kill Jesus. 32 But he said, "I have shown you many good things that my Father sent me to do. Which one are you going to stone me for?"

33 They answered, "We are not stoning you because of any good thing you did. We are stoning you because you did a terrible thing. You are just a man, and here you are claiming to be God!"

34 Jesus replied:

In your Scriptures doesn't God say, "You are gods"? 35 You can't argue with the Scriptures, and God spoke to those people and called them gods. 36 So why do you accuse me of a terrible sin for saying that I am the Son of God? After all, it is the Father who prepared me for this work. He is also the one who sent me into the world. 37 If I don't do as my Father does, you should not believe me. 38 But if I do what my Father does, you should believe because of that, even if you don't have faith in me. Then you will know for certain that the Father is one with me, and I am one with the Father.

39 Again they wanted to arrest Jesus. But he escaped 40 and crossed the Jordan to the place where John had earlier been baptizing. While Jesus was there, 41 many people came to him. They were saying, "John didn't work any miracles, but everything he said about Jesus is true." 42 A lot of those people also put their faith in Jesus.

In your Scriptures doesn't God say, "You are gods"? wrong translation as it refers to Jewish bible the word Elohim not necessarily addressed god. it means lord. which also refer to humans of certain ranks.

because the verse says 16:101 you are but a forger
forger of what?
“a true believer as a person so fanatically committed to a cause that no amount of reality can make him abandon it” Eric Hoffer

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ygalg
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Re: Comments : Abrogation in the quran. Mesmorial vs Skynightbl

Post by ygalg »

skynightblaze wrote:IF you say Jesus was not GOd as per bible then muslims need to atleast believe that Jesus was the son of GOD . I don't think there is any issue among christians over jesus being son of GOd. The point I was trying to convey was that muslims need to believe teachings contradictory to Quran so be it son of GOd or GOd himself.
and that is where we have no dispute.

why do you think Koran does not addressed the claim Jesus is god? that should be perceivable with the christians present in Saudi Arabia.

but what with the claim the jews believe Ezra son of god? that would be a lie and to make it passed you need to insert a little truth too (jesus son of god)
Last edited by ygalg on Sat May 21, 2011 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Comments : Abrogation in the quran. Mesmorial vs Skynightbl

Post by ygalg »

skynightblaze wrote: AS far substituting one revelation for another is concerned this can apply to quran also because every verse of quran is a revelation.
I agree that any words in Koran considered revelation and hence could refer to it too.
The verse 16:101 was referring to pagans claiming that Muhammad was forger because he substituted one verse of quran with other. Now its obvious that anyone is going to call muhammad a forger when they see him replacing verses in the quran because GOd would reveal the verses right in the first place.That's the context of the verse. THis is my opinion and again I to am open to correction.
Koran stance, it does not accept other scriptures except what stated in 3:84 and of course Koran. you may have a point skynightblaze in regard 16:101.
yet vogue. this shows cunning nature of the author. this is not indicates a divine source behind writing of koran.
“a true believer as a person so fanatically committed to a cause that no amount of reality can make him abandon it” Eric Hoffer

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