Sharia law is illogical.

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zamie
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Sharia law is illogical.

Post by zamie »

Muslims say that western law is dumb as we put all out criminals in jail and feed them, cloth them and care for them with tax money for their entire sentence. This, according to muslims, is unproductive and a burden on society. All i have to ask is this. Is it not unproductive to have people walking around with no hands????/ How are people with no hands and no fingers supposed to contribute to society without being a major burden.

This would have been a major problem during muhammds time due to the more physical aspect of work, but even today, one would need 24/7 around the clock help if he hand no hands. He would also be unable to work in most fields. Utter..utter retardation.


[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

And yes, to the people who say that harsh punishments deter criminals, obviously this is not true, as muhammad himself decreed many punishments unto his fellow muslims and Saudi Arabia still does this (though rarely i believe)
The muslim challenge. If you cannot answer it, your religion is refuted.
(viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8341)

"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes
calhounite
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Re: Sharia law is illogical.

Post by calhounite »

Sharia is not so much a set of laws rather than a systemic system of slave containment and enforcement or, as "law", can be said to enforce an inverted set of mores, or, in simplest terms it is the placement of all humanity on the Arabian desert of the 7th century.

Murder, for instance, was actually legal and highly desirable back in Mo's environment. The meager resources in the desert never could support the existing population, and the murdering of a member of some tribe was legal, welcomed and desired. The desert society as a whole got a 2 for 1 on the deal because the murder was paid for by the permitting of a recipricating murder of a member of the tribe to which the perpetrator belonged. Thus, Arabian tribes of the time got along fabulously with each other so long as they warred with each other suffiently to keep the population down.

Sharia pretty much kills off all non-Muslims immediately, so in order to keep the murder rate sustained beyond that, and since Muslims are more gutless these days, it has been modified so that murders can be paid for with cash.

The basic thing though, is blood. Muslims can't get enough of it. Theft is a common crime, so that is good for tearing a body apart. but a Muslim will do anything to grub for blood.

True story. A Scotchman was arrested in Saudi Arabia. Beaten until he confessed. Couldn't make up their minds so sentenced to be both cruxified and beheaded. But then didn't feel the guy would feel the nails, so decreed his neck would only be cut in half....slooooowly.

Was repatriated tho before the sentence could be carried out.
Mughal
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Re: Sharia law is illogical.

Post by Mughal »

No law is good when it is looked at out of its proper context.

No law can be perfect because situations we find ourselves in are not perfect.

All we can do is try our best to think out better laws to serve better purposes.

The purpose of law is to keep a society moving smoothly towards its declared aim by controlling the elemnets in the society that may prove troublesome.

A law is only good if it is well thought out taking into account all related aspects of the soceity for the good of people and it is enforced appropriately.

In case of islam and muslims it is rulers and governments who claim to be muslims that we should criticise instead of islam. This way we can isolate individual governments of individual countries and get results. By criticising islam wholesale we make more people enemies than we really need to. Criticism of islam helps divert attention from offenders to ideology and so we get no results because it is people we need to target not ideas which are thier own interpretations of the ideology that can be changed under pressure.
Brendalee
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Re: Sharia law is illogical.

Post by Brendalee »

Hello Mughal,

I utterly disagree with you.

Ideology is the fuel for human actions. It would never have mattered how many nazis were killed in the second world war. The ideology had to be eradicated from the German psyche. The allies were obliged to de-nazify the schools, universities, media, etc.etc. Had we left the ideology intact, we would have won the physical fight (temporarily)but still lost the war.

The same sort of thing had to be undertaken in Japan.

And it is often NOT the governments which are so keen on Sharia; They are generally more interested in the international trade and aid that keeps their coffers full. But they must please their own people (eg the "Arab street") for fear of an uprising. As long as their people are happy to act on the ideology,things cannot change.

Where this is NOT so much the case, eg Iran & North Korea, and it is the government imposing the ideology, pressuring makes no difference because they care not a whit whether their people suffer from pressures like sanctions.
Yohan
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Re: Sharia law is illogical.

Post by Yohan »

zamie wrote:Sharia law is illogical.
Sharia law is logical only to Allah, and to those who totally belive in him. It is illogical to everyone else. What's wrong with that?

Praying 5 times a day is totally logical to Muslims (and loved by Allah), but illogical to everyone else. You see where I am leading -----.
Mughal
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Re: Sharia law is illogical.

Post by Mughal »

Brendalee wrote:Hello Mughal,

I utterly disagree with you.

Ideology is the fuel for human actions. It would never have mattered how many nazis were killed in the second world war. The ideology had to be eradicated from the German psyche. The allies were obliged to de-nazify the schools, universities, media, etc.etc. Had we left the ideology intact, we would have won the physical fight (temporarily)but still lost the war.

The same sort of thing had to be undertaken in Japan.

And it is often NOT the governments which are so keen on Sharia; They are generally more interested in the international trade and aid that keeps their coffers full. But they must please their own people (eg the "Arab street") for fear of an uprising. As long as their people are happy to act on the ideology,things cannot change.

Where this is NOT so much the case, eg Iran & North Korea, and it is the government imposing the ideology, pressuring makes no difference because they care not a whit whether their people suffer from pressures like sanctions.
Thank you dear Brendalee for your thoughts and greetings. Hope you are fine.

I think I did not clarify what I was saying there about islam and islamic laws. You are absolutely right that laws are based on some sort of ideology or concept. Islamic laws are based on islamic ideology. However the problem is to see which ideology is actually islamic out of all the ideologies claimed by so many different muslim sects to be islamic.

Again I do not accept any ideology as proper islamic ideology that does not take into account quranic context of it. Only and only quranic context based ideology is proper islamic ideology and its laws are also quranic context based laws.

The question is, are all muslim claimed islamic ideologies are islamic and their those islamic laws are islamic just because muslims claim them to be so? I think not, because islam is only and only that which is in the quran in its own context and like was only those laws are proper islamic that can be proven to be based on the quranic context of them?

I agree with you that many muslims are barbaric and their islams are barbaric and their laws are barbaric but is the quranic islam barbaric and its laws are barbaric? I say no they are not.

We exmuslims almost all come from shia sunni back grounds and we left islam because we did not like what we were taught as islam. However, if we study shia sunni islam and the quran in its own context, we see a totally different islam. This quranic islam has no worldy barbaric punishment for apostasy, adultery or even murder as of one off mistake. The punishments told in the quran for things are for serial and hard criminals as maximum possible punishments. Death penalty is for serial killers for example otherwise there is compensation law.

I am an original member on this forum and my aim was originally to spread information about islam and muslims to make wider humanity aware of the dangers of islam and muslims. I participated on various forums to get peoples' attention and suggested the same on this forum to fellow exmuslims. Some did do that and today the whole world is aware of what we told the world.

We are now at the next stage of the process ie how to contain the danger we warned people about. For a little while now I am of the view that the best way forward is to start differentiating between the quranic islam in quranic context and islam of wider muslim societies worldwide.

As you may be aware of it I have started a thread; is it possible to reform islam? In that thread I am trying to show that it is possible to contain the danger of islam by bringing muslims to their senses by telling them that they have been misled by their corrupt religious and political leaders regarding islam.

I have argued on basis of three things a)definition of islam ie that the quranic islam in quranic context is not a comprehensive islam that gives laws about each and everything for ever to follow. This is true and no muslim can prove it wrong. I put up this as a challenge for muslims on secularislam.org of ibn waraq many years back. There was no ffi at that time and ali sina used to participate on the gurest book their as well. The same challenge is here as well even today for anyone muslim or exmuslim orany nonmuslim. The laws muslim make and attribute to islam are their own selfmade laws for their own reasons not laws from the quran for quranic purpose.

My other challenge for all is to prove that sunnah means living like muhamamd in the 7th century arabian setting in the quranic context. Again this challenge is open to all here and everywhere.

Again the point is that almost all so called sunnahs are muslim make beliefs by themselves. Nowhere in the quran it is said live like muhammad as muslims at large understand it and try to do so as well. This is their own lack of understanding of the quran in its own context.

The 3rd point is rule of abrogation, this has nothing to do with the quran in its own context. This too is muslim invention to divert masses from quranic islam.

So see if anyone can successfully argue against these points. If anyone succeeds that will mean that sunni shia mullahs are right and I am wrong in understanding of the quranic text in its own context regarding these points. However if one cannot prove me wrong then it means that muslims have been led away from quranic islam by their religious and poitical leaders and rulers. My point is that muslims have been led away from real islam by their muslim rulers so that they could achieve their own goals and so they used and abused muslims and nonmuslims along the way.

This is an experiment, if it is successful then once again I invite my exmuslim friends to start participing on muslim forums and challenge muslims about their interporetation of islam on basis of the quranic interpretation by the quran itself and let them beat this interpretation if they can. If they cannot and I know they cannot then they will have to accept that they have been dooped. This should be enough to help them wake up and start using their own brains.

regards and all the best.
Brendalee
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Re: Sharia law is illogical.

Post by Brendalee »

Hello Mughal. Of course I am fine, thank you.

The Quran is a matter of interpretation and it has NO contextual background that is not made up for it. You cannot give "context" to verses advising hate and violence; many will take it at face value.

So, to try to say that there is ONE (peaceful) version of the Quran and the bulk of Muslims and their jurists and scholars (and the entirety of 1400 years of practised violence and slaughter) are all wrong is simply not credible.

Until evidence proves otherwise, the Quran will always hold the same violent ideology, espousing the superiority of Muslims (like Aryans in Nazi ideology) and the inferiority of non-Muslims (like Jews and non Aryans in Nazi ideology). You cannot put the Quran AWAY from its constant de-humanising of non-Muslim humanity.
The Quran is full of hatred and de-humanising of non-Muslims. Whatever context some spin tries to put it in, it is simply MORALLY WRONG.

You cannot build a sound house on a rotten foundation.
BurgeoningKnowledge
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Re: Sharia law is illogical.

Post by BurgeoningKnowledge »

Brendalee wrote:Hello Mughal. Of course I am fine, thank you.

The Quran is a matter of interpretation and it has NO contextual background that is not made up for it. You cannot give "context" to verses advising hate and violence; many will take it at face value.

So, to try to say that there is ONE (peaceful) version of the Quran and the bulk of Muslims and their jurists and scholars (and the entirety of 1400 years of practised violence and slaughter) are all wrong is simply not credible.

Until evidence proves otherwise, the Quran will always hold the same violent ideology, espousing the superiority of Muslims (like Aryans in Nazi ideology) and the inferiority of non-Muslims (like Jews and non Aryans in Nazi ideology). You cannot put the Quran AWAY from its constant de-humanising of non-Muslim humanity.
The Quran is full of hatred and de-humanising of non-Muslims. Whatever context some spin tries to put it in, it is simply MORALLY WRONG.

You cannot build a sound house on a rotten foundation.
So you believe that the Quran is open to interpretation, but different interpretations are not possible?
...followed by cliched, blanket statements

Get back to me when you start making sense.
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zamie
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Re: Sharia law is illogical.

Post by zamie »

Yohan wrote:
zamie wrote:Sharia law is illogical.
Sharia law is logical only to Allah, and to those who totally belive in him. It is illogical to everyone else. What's wrong with that?

Praying 5 times a day is totally logical to Muslims (and loved by Allah), but illogical to everyone else. You see where I am leading -----.
Why don't you actually read my argument instead of ignoring more than half? Good idea?
The muslim challenge. If you cannot answer it, your religion is refuted.
(viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8341)

"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes
yeezevee
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Re: Sharia law is illogical.

Post by yeezevee »

Let me put some words of Mughal to get more clarification from him
Mughal wrote:No law is good when it is looked at out of its proper context.
that is NOT true dear Mughal., there are some laws that are universal for betterment of life of human being and other living systems. Let me give an example on the very highly discussed subject and worst crime often children go through without they comprehending the social or mental problems that they may face at a later age ..Pedophilia

Would it not be good idea to make law no 50 year old man should be able to marry any one under 18 or 20(whatever) whether it is a boy or a girl?? what proper context would you have to say it is O.k for 50 year old man to marry to sleep with 16 or <16 year old girl??
No law can be perfect because situations we find ourselves in are not perfect.
Again I disagree with you but I agree Laws, specially social laws that are made at a given time must always be open to question their validity.
All we can do is try our best to think out better laws to serve better purposes.
Yes for that one should be able change the laws .. "SO THERE IS NO LAW OF GOD" from some god book written by some guy some 100 or 1000 years back... Every law should be flexible to question it and to make it better
The purpose of law is to keep a society moving smoothly towards its declared aim by controlling the elemnets in the society that may prove troublesome.
That is true ., it is exactly like driving on a road on a given terrain in a given country. The goal is to move the traffic smoothly. NOT PUT A LAW and make life miserable to all drivers
Spoiler! :
A law is only good if it is well thought out taking into account all related aspects of the soceity for the good of people and it is enforced appropriately.

In case of islam and muslims it is rulers and governments who claim to be muslims that we should criticise instead of islam. This way we can isolate individual governments of individual countries and get results. By criticising islam wholesale we make more people enemies than we really need to. Criticism of islam helps divert attention from offenders to ideology and so we get no results because it is people we need to target not ideas which are thier own interpretations of the ideology that can be changed under pressure
.
that is all wonderful., but would you consider that Islamic Sharia laws are good for humanity?? and would you consider Questioning these Sharia law is questioning Islam and Quran?? you said this in that spoiler
In case of islam and muslims it is rulers and governments who claim to be muslims that we should criticise instead of islam.
Why do you think rulers and governments who claim to be Muslims are NOT Muslims? are they not Muslims??

with best regards
yeezevee
Last edited by yeezevee on Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:21 am, edited 3 times in total.
Mughal
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Re: Sharia law is illogical.

Post by Mughal »

Hello yeezevee, it is always nice to have your views on things. Thanks for your clarifications by additions about criticism of quran and islam. I am not gainst that as you already know.

Have a look at thread stoning against islam for more explanation of my position on things and hope to see your views on my thoughts.

My regards and best wishes dear yeezevee.
yeezevee
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Re: Sharia law is illogical.

Post by yeezevee »

Mughal wrote:Hello yeezevee, it is always nice to have your views on things. Thanks for your clarifications by additions about criticism of quran and islam. I am not gainst that as you already know.

Have a look at thread stoning against islam for more explanation of my position on things and hope to see your views on my thoughts.

My regards and best wishes dear yeezevee.
Yes I am reading that thread dear Mughal., I am just waiting to get more input from both sides., And I absolutley agree with you on elimination of every thing in Islam that comes out of Hadith but that doesn't mean Quran is unquestionable and you can get away making social/political/economical laws based upon Quran.
Mughal to Brendalee _ Mughal wrote:
However the problem is to see which ideology is actually islamic out of all the ideologies claimed by so many different muslim sects to be islamic.
what is the big deal about that dear Mughal? can't you make the ideology that you extract out of Quran and Quran only as true Islamic ideology?
Again I do not accept any ideology as proper islamic ideology that does not take into account quranic context of it. Only and only quranic context based ideology is proper islamic ideology and its laws are also quranic context based laws.
well tell me and the readers some laws based on Koranic context based that you think are good and are not their in NON-ISLAMIC SOCIETIES
I agree with you that many muslims are barbaric and their islams are barbaric and their laws are barbaric but is the quranic islam barbaric and its laws are barbaric? I say no they are not.
Well it depends how look at it., Some of the verse in Quran are STUPID and you make laws out stupid verses certain cases will end barbaric if not look like barbaric
We exmuslims almost all come from shia sunni back grounds and we left islam because we did not like what we were taught as islam. However, if we study shia sunni islam and the quran in its own context, we see a totally different islam. This quranic islam has no worldy barbaric punishment for apostasy, adultery or even murder as of one off mistake. The punishments told in the quran for things are for serial and hard criminals as maximum possible punishments. Death penalty is for serial killers for example otherwise there is compensation law.
well let us highlight those things on Mosques in Islamic societies ., if not in mosques in Islamic forums NOT IN FFI dear Mughal., what is the point of doing that in FFI unless you like ffi guys going in to other forums and highlighting Islam that is there which is NOT based on Quran only.
I am an original member on this forum and my aim was originally to spread information about islam and muslims to make wider humanity aware of the dangers of islam and muslims. I participated on various forums to get peoples' attention and suggested the same on this forum to fellow exmuslims. Some did do that and today the whole world is aware of what we told the world.
No no.. whole world is NOT aware., world is close 7 billion people FFI has hardly 1000 members (MUSLIMS + NON MUSLIMS) who may closely read the forum and articles.. rest of the guys are just read may be write few posts get out..
We are now at the next stage of the process ie how to contain the danger we warned people about. For a little while now I am of the view that the best way forward is to start differentiating between the quranic islam in quranic context and islam of wider muslim societies worldwide.
That is fine we can do that., and I think we should do that on OTHER ISLAMIC FORUMS., but here Quran doesn't escape criticism for that matter no religious books/scripture should escape criticism .
As you may be aware of it I have started a thread; is it possible to reform islam? In that thread I am trying to show that it is possible to contain the danger of islam by bringing muslims to their senses by telling them that they have been misled by their corrupt religious and political leaders regarding islam.
That is true we can do that in some threads but best is doing that in "ISLAMIC FORUMS"
I have argued on basis of three things a)definition of islam ie that the quranic islam in quranic context is not a comprehensive islam that gives laws about each and everything for ever to follow. This is true and no muslim can prove it wrong. I put up this as a challenge for muslims on secularislam.org of ibn waraq many years back. There was no ffi at that time and ali sina used to participate on the gurest book their as well. The same challenge is here as well even today for anyone muslim or exmuslim orany nonmuslim. The laws muslim make and attribute to islam are their own selfmade laws for their own reasons not laws from the quran for quranic purpose.
well if you say that., then let us see what laws can we make out of Quran that is acceptable to all and it betters the society.. Why not make some laws dear Mughal., Try to make few laws based on Quran in this thread.
My other challenge for all is to prove that sunnah means living like muhamamd in the 7th century arabian setting in the quranic context. Again this challenge is open to all here and everywhere.

Again the point is that almost all so called sunnahs are muslim make beliefs by themselves. Nowhere in the quran it is said live like muhammad as muslims at large understand it and try to do so as well. This is their own lack of understanding of the quran in its own context.
Well then throw Muhammad out of Quran., don't make that guy as model and super model ., That guy is as good as me and you or any other Muslim., in fact we are better., so throw him out of Islam and out of Quran.
The 3rd point is rule of abrogation, this has nothing to do with the quran in its own context. This too is muslim invention to divert masses from quranic islam.
That is all right, we don't need worry about abrogation or not abrogation..
So see if anyone can successfully argue against these points. If anyone succeeds that will mean that sunni shia mullahs are right and I am wrong in understanding of the quranic text in its own context regarding these points. However if one cannot prove me wrong then it means that muslims have been led away from quranic islam by their religious and poitical leaders and rulers. My point is that muslims have been led away from real islam by their muslim rulers so that they could achieve their own goals and so they used and abused muslims and nonmuslims along the way
. no..no., you should not even go to unni shia mullahs., JUST CALL THEM AS IDIOTS AND ASK THEM TO READ QURAN and make laws based upon Quran., but that again we should do it on Islamic forums ideally in a MOSQUE settings.
This is an experiment, if it is successful then once again I invite my exmuslim friends to start participing on muslim forums and challenge muslims about their interporetation of islam on basis of the quranic interpretation by the quran itself and let them beat this interpretation if they can . .
That is indeed extremely important where Non Muslims must go and participate in Islamic forums and support Quran only Muslims. Unfortunately those guys will ban Muslim like you and my grand father(WHO DIED YOUNG thanks to his father in-laws.....)

But there is nothing wrong in trying and playing with your experiment., After all Muslims are Human beings and as intelligent as non-Muslims and there is plenty in Quran and in Islam that is humanistic and nothing special to Muslim and Islam.

with best wishes
yeezevee
Mughal
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Re: Sharia law is illogical.

Post by Mughal »

Thank you dear yeezevee, I have explained further on other thread as to what my plan is now so hope that shall clarify my position on things.

Don't tell me you too think that I have forgetten the holy quran and the holy hadith or islam.

I work accoring to my own plan as always.

Hope to see you participating in my next experiment ie finding things which muslims do agains the quran.

regards and all the best.
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