Contradiction: Allah cannot be just and merciful.

[debunker]

But that is because you are a nice person, and perhaps also one who had not a great many bad experiences with people they thought of as friends. (At least not that many that your faith in the goodness of people has been shattered That is definitely something you should treasure!!!)

I believe that in general the goodness in people is proportional to the amount of goodness they're shown by others. But that's a different topic.

Sadly, as you get older, the chances get higher that you reach the conclusion that genuinely unselfish people are rare.

Where I come from, the people are not only selfish, they're evil. This is despite their being rich... that's because where injustice dominates evil prevails.

Let's change the analogy slightly: A stranger in the street offers you $100. Would you take it without being curious enough to ask questions? Or would you just assume it's too good to be true, and ignore the stanger?

It depends on my state. If I looked like a miserable person who's in dire need for money and someone gave me a $100, I'll immediately interpret their action as extreme generosity and be thankful for it... if, on the other hand, I didn't look like someone in need, I'd be very suspicious, of course, and refuse their dubious offer of generosity, even if it were genuine, since my pride won't allow me to reduce myself to the level of a beggar.

[Wootah]

I really hope that there is a chance you can see the absurdity in this action by you. I owe you $100, but you want to forgive me, so what do you do? Hmm? .... What do you do? You give me another $100 to "pay" you back what I already owed you? Why give me another $100? Simply forgive!!!!

We are talking about justice not mercy. That is your confusion.

You want to be forgiven, I get that, it's the wickedness of your desire for mercy without justice. All criminals want mercy do they not? Trust me if God compromised on his justice he would be worse than the devil.

I'll try to make it plain why mercy without justice is wicked: You get tyrants.

[debunker]

@ Wootah

So God paid Himself you said? Why don't you respond to my previous post, point by point? So, I owe you $100, you give me $100 to pay you back?

Should we really keep up this conversation? How about you go back to my previous post and tell me: why does Yahweh need to pay Himself by sacrificing Himself?

You want to be forgiven, I get that, it's the wickedness of your desire for mercy without justice. All criminals want mercy do they not? Trust me if God compromised on his justice he would be worse than the devil.

And by killing Himself, He satisfied your definition of justice, how?

So what we have here is: Yahweh sacrificed Himself to Himself in justice to Himself.

[sparky]

@ Wootah

So God paid Himself you said? Why don't you respond to my previous post, point by point? So, I owe you $100, you give me $100 to pay you back?

Should we really keep up this conversation? How about you go back to my previous post and tell me: why does Yahweh need to pay Himself by sacrificing Himself?

You want to be forgiven, I get that, it's the wickedness of your desire for mercy without justice. All criminals want mercy do they not? Trust me if God compromised on his justice he would be worse than the devil.

And by killing Himself, He satisfied your definition of justice, how?

So what we have here is: Yahweh sacrificed Himself to Himself in justice to Himself.

Yes, this is what I suspected you were trying to do. I'm sure you are much happier talking about Christianity. A shame that Wootah took the bait.

We are still waiting for you to provide Quranic justification for your definition of justice. The Quranic verses that BK and you provided all imply that there is a 'deserved' punishment for sin. This implies a 'just' God in the sense that Wootah provided at the beginning. This must be so for God's mercy to mean anything at all. If there is no 'deserved' punishment (i.e. justice) there can be no forgoing this punishment (i.e. mercy).

If you want to claim that Allah 'pays' for a debt himself when he forgives someone, you need to both explain where this idea is reflected in the Quran and explain how, as a victim obviously suffers when he forgives in this way (forgoes what was stolen, bears the pain of an insult, endures a broken relationship, etc), in what way does God 'suffer' when he forgives someone.

Cheers,
sparky

[manfred]

It depends on my state. If I looked like a miserable person who's in dire need for money and someone gave me a $100, I'll immediately interpret their action as extreme generosity and be thankful for it... if, on the other hand, I didn't look like someone in need, I'd be very suspicious, of course, and refuse their dubious offer of generosity, even if it were genuine, since my pride won't allow me to reduce myself to the level of a beggar.

Well, you have summarised the problem very well here: Most of us do not think of ourselves as beggars, and most of us are suspicious of "free" gifts.

So imagine this scenario:
God wants to make a free gift to mankind. He also wants to do it is such a way that it raises us up in dignity, and not reduces us to a beggar. He wants to tell us that He wants to overcome the gulf between Him and man called "sin". And he wants to do all that in a way that people will believe and yet still have a choice to accept or reject.

Quite a tall order, I think, you agree. A "listen here" from a prophet will not do, something stronger is needed.

I told you what Christians say how this conundrum was solved.

Ok, just imgine YOU are in God's place. You want to raise all of mankind up to bring close to you in genuine love. How would you tackle that? Is there and easy way?

[debunker]

@ manfred

God wants to make a free gift to mankind. He also wants to do it is such a way that it raises us up in dignity, and not reduces us to a beggar. He wants to tell us that He wants to overcome the gulf between Him and man called "sin". And he wants to do all that in a way that people will believe and yet still have a choice to accept or reject.

Ok, just imgine YOU are in God's place. You want to raise all of mankind up to bring close to you in genuine love. How would you tackle that? Is there and easy way?

Ok, you are the ONLY Christian I ever heard of or met anywhere who could FINALLY explain the relevance of Jesus' sacrifice. Ok... I admit that within the Christian concept of God as a Father, what you said makes perfect sense. But this Father clearly loves His children so much, He was willing to humiliate Himself a GREAT deal, just that they don't feel humiliated themselves.

Well, although I don't like this idea at all, it DOES make sense within the fatherly love concept in Christianity. Bravo! Finally, a Christian who could solve the puzzle!

[debunker]

@ sparky

Yes, this is what I suspected you were trying to do. I'm sure you are much happier talking about Christianity. A shame that Wootah took the bait.

We are still waiting for you to provide Quranic justification for your definition of justice. The Quranic verses that BK and you provided all imply that there is a 'deserved' punishment for sin.

I agree. But also the Quranic verses I provided clearly show that we can also be saved by God's grace. So where is the problem?

This implies a 'just' God in the sense that Wootah provided at the beginning. This must be so for God's mercy to mean anything at all. If there is no 'deserved' punishment (i.e. justice) there can be no forgoing this punishment (i.e. mercy).

So? Where is the problem? We deserve to be punished, but with God's mercy/grace we could be forgiven, as the verses I shown amply clarify.

If you want to claim that Allah 'pays' for a debt himself when he forgives someone, you need to both explain where this idea is reflected in the Quran

See above. I never said God 'pays' for sin. He doesn't owe us anything to pay, in the first place. Like I said, He makes us pay for our sins against others.

039.031
YUSUFALI: In the end will ye (all), on the Day of Judgment, settle your disputes in the presence of your Lord.
PICKTHAL: Then lo! on the Day of Resurrection, before your Lord ye will dispute.
SHAKIR: Then surely on the day of resurrection you will contend one with another before. your Lord.

and explain how, as a victim obviously suffers when he forgives in this way (forgoes what was stolen, bears the pain of an insult, endures a broken relationship, etc), in what way does God 'suffer' when he forgives someone.

Why does He have to suffer?!!!! What's in it for a victim if God suffers in the place of an agressor? It's like if I committ a murder, my victim's family should be satisfied by punishing an innocent man in my place.

Anyway, in the Islamic version, the *agressor* (not God) suffers... I said that a million times. God makes the agressors pay and then He decides whether they can be saved or not.

[CuteCoot]

Ok... You made a claim: "young men are also provided for the purposes of most excellent".

Now, prove this statement by you. I know you can't because you know that the Quran condemns homosexulaity, so the idea of homosexulaity in a paradise created by a God who condemns it, is obviously a ridiculous lie.

Are you for real? Do you really not know about the young boys provided in the Islamic heaven? And since when was the Koran ever consistent?

Homosexuality was and is widely practised in Islamic conutries. To please the homosexuals among his followers he promised them pre-pubescent boys in Paradise. So after committing plunder, loot, rape and murder in this life, the followers of Islam get "rewarded" by untouched virginal youths who are fresh like pearls.

The relevant verses from the Koran are:

Koran 52:24
Round about them will serve, to them, boys (handsome) as pearls well-guarded.

Koran 56:17
Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness.

Koran 76:19
And round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls.

source

Are you really so very naive?

[debunker]

@ CuteCoot

And since when was the Koran ever consistent?

Well, isn't that just too convenient an excuse! I'm sorry for calling you a liar... apparently you're just STUPID or too lazy to read just a few more verses. Here's my rebuttal.

1- These immortal boys are SERVANTS. They serve non-intoxicating drinks. This is even clear by reading the surrounding verses, for example:

056.017
YUSUFALI: Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness),
PICKTHAL: There wait on them immortal youths
SHAKIR: Round about them shall go youths never altering in age,

056.018
YUSUFALI: With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains:
PICKTHAL: With bowls and ewers and a cup from a pure spring
SHAKIR: With goblets and ewers and a cup of pure drink;

056.019
YUSUFALI: No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication:
PICKTHAL: Wherefrom they get no aching of the head nor any madness,
SHAKIR: They shall not be affected with headache thereby, nor shall they get exhausted,

2- These verses were revealed in Mecca where no thoughts of fighting were ever contemplated. Same thing with the virgin verses, by the way (they too were revealed in Mecca except one).

So, the brilliant idea that these were promised to encourage fighting is also false.

3- And if for whatever reason you think these verses are vague, then check EVERY Tafsir you can find and see what it tells you.

4- Homosexulaity is condemned as unnatural http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/q ... /long.html

5- The author of that article you provided is so shameless a liar, he quoted a Hadith that does NOT even exist: Al Hadis, Vol. 4, p. 172, No. 34. There is no book called Al Hadis.. (there's Bukhari, Muslim, Sunan Abu Dawud, etc).


I have been on FFI about 9 months now... this claim was by far the most outrageous I ever heard.

[manfred]

I am not sure if going into the minutiae of the Islamic paradise will help with the topic. Debunker, correct me if I am wrong, but is it fair to say that the quranic description of paradise is largely allegorical, i.e. a verbal "image" portraying a concept not of this world to a group of 9th century desert people? If we start poking around with the details, we will naturally discover limitations of the image. Some work is required by the reader to understand what is being said. Allegories are like pictures behind a reflective glass, you can see the picture, but you also always see yourself.

Islamic paradise is, to me, a rather big topic all of its own. So, instead, let’s have a look at who gets admission to this paradise, as that is at the heart of this topic.

The quran is quite clear that Islamic paradise is a Muslim only “place” (for lack of a better description). Islam also teaches that Allah chooses those who he wants to call to be Muslims, and our final destination, be it paradise or hell, is decided before we are even born. Allah even “seals the hearts” of those who are destined for hell.

In some ways Allah can be likened to a rather wilful gardener: He plants all sorts of crops, but then he nurtures one some of his crop, providing for its needs, and taking a delight in them, but ignoring all of his other plants, leaving them to grow by themselves, even at times leaving them to interfere with his “chosen” crop.

In the end Allah harvests his “favourite” crop and burns the rest.

How is predestination compatible with a just God? Is our fate determined by our deeds? But do we choose what we do or do we simple carry out a pre-ordained plan, like puppets in a show?

[debunker]

@ manfred

Islamic paradise is, to me, a rather big topic all of its own. So, instead, let’s have a look at who gets admission to this paradise, as that is at the heart of this topic.

Good... like you, I think it's off topic, but CuteCoot begs to differ.

The quran is quite clear that Islamic paradise is a Muslim only “place” (for lack of a better description). Islam also teaches that Allah chooses those who he wants to call to be Muslims, and or final destination be it paradise or hell, is decided before we are even born. Allah even “seals the hearts” of those who are destined for hell.

Actually, the Quran claims God *knows* us before we're even born... it did not say He *decided* our destination... He knew everything that would happen since forever. "Deciding" our destination is not actually, in the Quran. But it's in the teachings of Paul.

In some ways Allah can be likened to a rather wilful gardener: He plants all sorts of crops, but then he nurtures one some of his crop, providing for its needs, and taking a delight in them, but ignoring all of his other plants, leaving them to grow by themselves, even at times leaving them to interfere with his “chosen” crop.

In the end Allah harvests his “favourite” crop and burns the rest.

How is predestination compatible with a just God? Is our fate determined by our deeds? But do we choose what we do or do we simple carry out a pre-ordained plan, like puppets in a show?.

As for the misunderstanding of the issue of 'sealing the hearts', I explained it in this very thread to Centaur by providing a link to a previous discussion. Anyway, let me explain it again using very similar examples from the NT:

Matthew 11:20-25
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=31;
20Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths.[d] If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." 25At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

At first it would appear that if Jesus is indeed full of love then he should have prayed for them rather than praised his Father for their blindness. But another way to view this is that Jesus has already passed his judgement regarding them... maybe he saw in them so much arrogance and disbelief he knew that his Father has already judged them and blinded them from seeing the truth? It seems that the test was over for them already even before their death (for their sins were great enough for a judgement to pass before the end of the test period--marked by their death).

keep reading:

Mark 4:10-12
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=31;
10When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'[a]"

Why does he speak in parables? So that the codified message reaches the intended audience?... These verses again strongly suggest predestiny. But maybe they have another meaning? Again, I think that Jesus somehow knew that even if they heard his message plain and clear they would still never believe. Maybe indeed the Father knew their hearts anddecided the test for those is over even before their death. (For the original post, click here.)

The point is when the Quran speaks of 'sealing hearts', I think it is to indicate that such hearts were so full pride and arrogance and disbelief that God has already passed His judgement against them even before they're dead. Come to think of it, why should the end of this test be marked by the end of our lives? Some people screw up so bad the test is cut short for them by terminating it even before they die.

[Centaur]

@debunker
would you care to explain the context of sealing of hearts in koran.Its just says non believers not any specific people.From your explanation its look like you are making up things.also you are quoting wrong context from bible .Context from NT to explain Koran???

[manfred]

First, I am not sure why we are looking at biblical texts here... they are irrelevant to the question as they tell us nothing about Islamic Allah. We are, I assume, talking about Islam, and not Christianity in this topic...

If you are saying that Islam teaches only pre-knowledge, but not pre destination (at least your version of Islam, I assume) then you stand alongside most Christians and Jews, but I am not sure that Muslims would generally agree with you. Still you use your own mind in deciding this, and you don't need anybody's approval.

“Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.” S. 4:88

It seems Allah CAUSES people to “go astray”.

“Allah leads astray whomsoever He will and guides whomsoever he will.” S. 14:4

Allah chooses according to his own preferences who to save. We seem to have nothing to do with this choice.

“And when We desire to destroy a city, We command its men who live at ease, and they commit ungodliness therein, then the Word is realized against it, and We destroy it utterly.” S. 17:16

Here the quran tells us that Allah first turns the people “ungodly” and then, for that ungodliness, destroys their city…

This little hadith is also very interesting:

Narrated ‘Imran:

I said, “O Allah's Apostle! Why should a doer (people) try to do good deeds?” The Prophet said, “Everybody will find easy to do such deeds as will lead him TO HIS DESTINED PLACE FOR WHICH HE HAS BEEN CREATED.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 641)

Mohammed says here that people will have a propensity to act according to their destiny. People destined for hell will do bad things BECAUSE of their destination.

St Augustine of Hippo said something rather similar to this saying of Mohammed, but with a subtle difference: “A good deed is a sign of God’s grace acting upon that person, and sign of a man who have found and gratefully accepted God’s grace. A bad deed signifies the absence of God’s grace in that same person, because he has rejected God.”
Have you spotted the difference? To Augustine we sometimes accept, sometime reject God’s grace, and we act very differently depending on what we do. Our relationship with God is fluid, constantly changing. There are good days and bad days. But the important part is this: WE ARE IN CONTROL. We choose. Because we choose we can be responsible.

Our final destiny is not even found in our actions, much less in our knowledge or beliefs, it’s found in the sum of our choices. To a Christian, our destiny is determined by our choices, to be precise, by our choice to accept God’s love and grace, offered to us for free for the asking, by the sincerity of that choice and by the extent we have allowed that fundamental choice to rule our life.

By contrast, Mohammed seems to say that God makes the choice, and we are merely acting out the choice already made.

Perhaps we get a little further with this topic if you tell us what, according to YOU, is the “Thing” that gets you to paradise?

[Centaur]

Islamic Pre-destination is quiet explicit

Pre-ordained sin - but man's responsibility?

In a dispute between Adam and Moses (!), which is reported in the Hadis ("Sahih Muslim", pages 1396 - 1398), Moses argues with Adam,

"'You are our father, you did us harm and caused us to get out of Paradise. Adam said to him ... 'You blame me for an act which Allah had ordained for me 40 years before he created me.' Allah's Apostle then said (or added): 'This is how Adam came the better of Moses."'

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Apostle as saying:

"Verily Allah has fixed the very portion of adultery which a man will indulge in, and which he of necessity must commit (or "there would be no escape from it)."

We find the "interpretation" in a footnote (2900 of Sahih Muslim):

"... the simple and straight meaning of this Hadis is ..." that "each person is endowed with a sexual lust of a certain measure, according to which he has his sexual yearnings from which he cannot escape."

We hold that, if words mean anything at all, the commentator in this footnote deliberately twisted the meaning of the original Hadis. The orthodox Sunni view (Asharian) states the Allah has written preserved tablets. He wills good and evil. Man is under compulsion to do what Allah decrees. Allah may - or may not - admit to Paradise, or cast into hell. ("Dictionary of Islam" pages 472 ff.).

This is in keeping with the Quran (Sura 76:29-31):

"This is an admonition: whosoever will, let him take a path to his Lord. But ye will not, except as Allah wills ... He will admit to his mercy whom He wills. But the wrongdoers - for them has he prepared a grievous penalty."

Christians view mercy as grace or an undeserved favour. It cannot be earned, for then mercy would not be needed. Since all mankind is in need of mercy from God, all mankind is dependent on His action.

The above-mentioned text from Sura 76 was used as an argument by the Asharians against the Mutazilites (rejected as heretics, because they advocated the free will of man). In contrast, the Jabrians (from jabr = complusion) deny all free agency in man and say that man is necessarily constrained by the force of Allah's eternal and immutable decree to act as he does. Allah can, if he so wills, admit all men to Paradise, or cast all into hell. Elsewhere it says that:

"nothing can happen in the world, whether it respects the conditions and operation of things, or good or evil, or obedience and disobedience, or faith and infidelity ... that is not contained in the written tablet of the decree of Allah." ("Dictionary of Islam" by T.P. Hughes, pages 472-473).

Ohh debunker you keep on lying


http://www.answeringislam.net/Nehls/Ask/predestination.html

[debunker]

@ manfred

I'll discuss this later with you but please, no Hadith, Ok? it's a non-sacred corruptible book for me, no different than the Bible... In fact, if you want to use Hadith, then you might as well use the Bible because both books to me are of the same value. (I do study the Bible as a corrupted religious source just like Hadith).

@ Centaur

you're so cute! what makes you think I'm going to reply to copy/paste? You can copy/paste whole sites, it's all the same to me.

[Centaur]

@ manfred

I'll discuss this later with you but please, no Hadith, Ok? it's a non-sacred corruptible book for me, no different than the Bible... In fact, if you want to use Hadith, then you might as well use the Bible because both books to me are of the same value. (I do study the Bible as a corrupted religious source just like Hadith).

Its not about what you consider holy or not holy.For example I consider hadiths more valuable than Koran for the simple fact that it contains more history than koran.On the otherhand I consider koran as a deluded claims of a Paedophiles alter ego.If democracy is, of the people by the people for the people. Koran is, of the Paedophile by the paedophile for the paedophile


@ Centaur

you're so cute! what makes you think I'm going to reply to copy/paste? You can copy/paste whole sites, it's all the same to me.

oh please dont address the whole link.just the stuff I brought up

[paarsurrey]

The Quran is quite clear that Islamic paradise is a Muslim only “place” (for lack of a better description).

Hi friend manfred

I don't agree with you. You have certainly misunderstood Quran/Islam/Muhammad.

[2:63] Surely, the Believers, and the Jews, and the Christians and the Sabians — whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds — shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.
[2:64] And remember the time when We took a covenant from you and raised high above you the Mount, saying: ‘Hold fast that which We have given you and bear in mind what is therein, that you may be saved.’
[2:65] Then you turned back thereafter; and had it not been for Allah’s grace towards you and His mercy, you would surely have been of the losers.

http://www.*you_got_to_be_kidding*/quran/search2/sh ... 2&verse=56

The above verse very clearly mentions that those persons who have the truthful beliefs and those who do good deeds suited to the situation and time would go to heaven. One who is a Muslim in name only and does not have good beliefs and or good deeds has no claim to heaven, it is purely the grace and the mercy of the Creator-God Allah YHWH, nobody else has any monopoly on the heaven; no intercession, nothing of this sort.

Please amend your concept accordingly. Yours is a very narrow and stringent concept; nothing to do with Quran/Islam/Muhammad, who are very open minded,nonracial and unbiased.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

[Wootah]

Yes, this is what I suspected you were trying to do. I'm sure you are much happier talking about Christianity. A shame that Wootah took the bait.

I think it inevitable to discuss concepts of justice and mercy. The logic of the thread as it applies to Islam is very indicting on the religion. It would be good to hear from other Muslims on what they think of the logic but now also on what they think on Debunker's version of Justice. It seems reasonable to say that Debunker has thought on this topic a lot. To decide that 'justice is what the victim says it is really indicates the mental gymnastics he has put himself through. I do wonder if that version has any wider basis in Islam or it is just Debunker's view.

Why does Yahweh need to pay Himself by sacrificing Himself?

You need to pay, not God.

And by killing Himself, He satisfied your definition of justice, how?

The wages of sin are death. God paid for it in dying for those that accept that payment and use that payment when they are judged.

So what we have here is: Yahweh sacrificed Himself to Himself in justice to Himself.

To make you acceptable to dwell with him.

[manfred]

paarsurrey,
why do you often ask for context in quotes from the quran, but you carefully leave out context here...

If you read on, you find that the people your verse (it's 62, not 63) in fact talks about "hypothetical" Christians and Sabian only; in fact,the text is very clear just one verse on:

But ye turned back thereafter: Had it not been for the Grace and Mercy of Allah to you, ye had surely been among the lost.And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."

We get much the same message also here:

“O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.” Al-Ma'ida (The Table) 5:51

“O Prophet! strive hard [wage war] against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell, - an evil refuge indeed.” Al-Tawba (Repentance) 9:73

“O Prophet! make war on the infidels and hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their abode! and wretched the passage to it!” At-Tahrim (Prohibition) 66:9

“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth of the people of the Book (the Jews and the Christians) until they pay the Jizya [tax on non-Muslims] with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.” Al-Tawba (Repentance) 9:29

There really is no doubt at all that Islam teaches that only Muslims will be saved on the last day. The quran says, as you read on al baqara, that the people referred to in your verse have already gone astray and no more "good" Christians exist.

[Wootah]

I agree. But also the Quranic verses I provided clearly show that we can also be saved by God's grace. So where is the problem?

Debunker at the start of the thread I made it clear this was an issue of logic not exegesis. If I say to you, "I am merciful and just." it does not mean that I am. I think this is why no one is directly replying to your post. You just retreated to the Koran and said, "Look see it does say Allah is merciful and just." You seem to be more willing than Paarsurrey to think about the topic..

The proof must be in the deeds and what we can observe must be reconcilable with the logic.

So? Where is the problem? We deserve to be punished, but with God's mercy/grace we could be forgiven, as the verses I shown amply clarify.

And when he shows mercy he is no longer just. Unless justice is the victim's right (as you are saying). But (as I was saying) this is no longer justice but revenge.

See above. I never said God 'pays' for sin. He doesn't owe us anything to pay, in the first place. Like I said, He makes us pay for our sins against others.

Can we all pay for our sins against others?
Are you saying that even the worst of us can eventually pay our debts off? (ignore shirk)
Once our debt is paid off are we all fine for paradise?

Why does He have to suffer?!!!!

Well either we all die or he sacrifices himself for us.

What's in it for a victim if God suffers in the place of an agressor?

Well the victim receives justice, the aggressor receives mercy.

It's like if I committ a murder, my victim's family should be satisfied by punishing an innocent man in my place.

No it's really not because the innocent man can't pay for the crime of murder. In thinking of examples of what it is like, you need to think of how someone can pay. With murder, the victim really can't receive justice by human justice. In relation to murder the closest human justice can get is probably an eye for eye. However we are taught to show mercy because God offered us mercy if we take it.


I think God knew it was the only way to save any of us and so he took it. I guess that's why Christians think it was a pretty great act of love.