Faith Freedom International

Centaur wrote:
dear paar
would you mind explaining the context in which Allah made the earth flat.

Hi friend Centaur

There is no such verse in Quran which mentions that earth is flat.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

nonsense there are plenty of them

Centaur wrote:nonsense there are plenty of them

Hi friend Centaur

Not even one that you could quote here for sure.

Thanks

paar
are you drunk? Incase if you missed the beginning I have alredy provided many verses from Koran and Ibn Kathir atfsir for the same.
Allah repeatedly says he made the earth flat/carpet like/spread out/bed. which part of it is that you dont understand.

I like this one

Sura Al-Kahf (18:47)

And (remember) the Day We shall cause the mountains to pass away (like clouds of dust), and you will see the earth as a levelled plain, and we shall gather them all together so as to leave not one of them behind.

Remove the pegs (i.e mountains) and we will have a levelled plain. I guess Allah have never been to the savana or the great plains.

Really I say unto you paars : It is a grave sin for Mo, the 20%Profit, to claim that the pagan Deity called Allah was THE creator of the universe!

paarsurrey wrote:

Centaur wrote:nonsense there are plenty of them

Hi friend Centaur

Not even one that you could quote here for sure.

Thanks

Are you playing dumb?

Centaur already gave you tons of quotes from the Koran that shows its author(s) thought the earth was flat here are the links:

viewtopic.php?p=74471#p74471
viewtopic.php?p=74474#p74474
viewtopic.php?p=74529#p74529


I say you only need 18.86 because the Koran tells us the Sun sets in a muddy spring which is false and would only makes sense if you believe in a flat earth cosmology.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... ml#018.086

YUSUFALI: Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
PICKTHAL: Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.
SHAKIR: Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.

There are plenty of other examples of the Koran getting the cosmology of the universe wrong again and again, and don't get me started on its inaccurate calendar system.

jm

junkmaster wrote:
Q. 2:22

WHO made the earth a bed for you, and the heaven a roof, and caused water to come down from the clouds and therewith brought forth fruits for your sustenance; so do not set up equals to ALLAH, while you know. Sher Ali

Hi friend junkmaster

Please mention where the Quran says that earth is flat in the first quote mentioned in your post; it is neither there in the text of Quran in Arabic , nor its translation. Since it is your first quote , it should be your strongest one in your favour.

You are obviously mistaken my friend and also our friend Centaur. There is no such verse in Quran; it is only your misconception and misunderstanding that find it there.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

paarsurrey wrote:

junkmaster wrote:
Q. 2:22

WHO made the earth a bed for you, and the heaven a roof, and caused water to come down from the clouds and therewith brought forth fruits for your sustenance; so do not set up equals to ALLAH, while you know. Sher Ali

Hi friend junkmaster

Please mention where the Quran says that earth is flat in the first quote mentioned in your post; it is neither there in the text of Quran in Arabic , nor its translation. Since it is your first quote , it should be your strongest one in your favour.

You are obviously mistaken my friend and also our friend Centaur. There is no such verse in Quran; it is only your misconception and misunderstanding that find it there.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

I told you all you need is 18.86 which incorrectly tells Muslims that the sun sets in a muddy spring, but you continue to ignore the evidence. Don't you find it strange that no one has ever found this place the Koran claims exist where the Sun sets in a muddy spring?

Hi friend junkmaster

Please acknowledge that Quran does not mention that Earth is flat which is the topic of the thread.Then we will come to your next misunderstanding. Be a large hearted Atheists.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

paarsurrey wrote:Hi friend junkmaster

Please acknowledge that Quran does not mention that Earth is flat which is the topic of the thread.Then we will come to your next misunderstanding. Be a large hearted Atheists.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Hi paarsurrey,

Clearly you have no understanding of logic or deductive/inductive reasoning and only know how to play semantic games.

I can't acknowledge what isn't true. The Koran repeatedly mentions the earth is flat, sets up impossible prayer times based on a flat earth, incorrectly instructs muslims how to face Mekkah , incorrectly claims the sun sets in a muddy spring, and chooses an inaccurate calendar system. All of which leads an honest investigator to the conclusion that the author(s) of the Koran believed in a flat earth cosmology. I'm sorry your mind isn't able to comprehend the deceptions you have been fed and continue to feed yourself.

Do you believe the Koran when it incorrectly claims the Sun sets in a Muddy spring?

I bet you don't. I bet you don't even use the inaccurate calendar of the Koran either?

junkmaster wrote:

paarsurrey wrote:Hi friend junkmaster

Please acknowledge that Quran does not mention that Earth is flat which is the topic of the thread.Then we will come to your next misunderstanding. Be a large hearted Atheists.

Hi paarsurrey,

Clearly you have no understanding of logic or deductive/inductive reasoning .

Hi friends

The fact is that Quranic Text in Arabic does not mention that Earth is flat; if somebody misunderstood it , it is his misunderstanding which should be corrected, as simple as that. Quran is not responsible for those who misunderstand a verse.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Iraqi TV Debate: Is the Earth Flat? A video..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wppjYDj9JUc

flat earth logic deduced from Quran.. please read..
http://www.islam-watch.org/Logical/Proo ... s-Flat.htm

yeezevee

paarsurrey wrote:

junkmaster wrote:

paarsurrey wrote:Hi friend junkmaster

Please acknowledge that Quran does not mention that Earth is flat which is the topic of the thread.Then we will come to your next misunderstanding. Be a large hearted Atheists.

Hi paarsurrey,

Clearly you have no understanding of logic or deductive/inductive reasoning .

Hi friends

The fact is that Quranic Text in Arabic does not mention that Earth is flat; if somebody misunderstood it , it is his misunderstanding which should be corrected, as simple as that. Quran is not responsible for those who misunderstand a verse.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Hi brother paarsurrey,

You seem like a nice guy, now please be honest.

Does the Koran 'mention that Earth is' similar to flat things such as carpets, beds, and being spread out with mountains for pegs?

The honest answer is yes.

Does the Koran tell us that the earth is any other shape other than compared to flat things?

The honest answer is no.

Will you admit the Koran compares the earth to flat things?

Can you provide any evidence the Koran compares the Earth to other non-flat shapes?


jm

Hi friend junkmaster

I would like to ask you a little question. Who and when the Atheists started believing that the Earth is round? Please name the person also.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Good ol' google and wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth

From the link: "The concept of a spherical Earth dates back to around the 6th century BCE in ancient Greek philosophy.[1] It remained a matter of philosophical speculation until the 3rd century BCE when Hellenistic astronomy established the spherical shape of the earth as a physical given."

[1]: Dicks, D.R. (1970). Early Greek Astronomy to Aristotle. Ithaca, N.Y.: Cornell University Press. pp. 72–198. ISBN 9780801405617.

If one thinks of a single society or culture that was MORE theistic than the ancient Greeks, one has to think pretty hard. Blasphemy and atheism were very serious charges during that time and place.

So "The atheists" didn't "invent it" at all. THEISTS mathematically proved the spherical shape of the Earth. Your Quran was relying on information known to be faulty for centuries.

Does the Quran Teach a Flat Earth? No!Some Chrisitans claim that the Muslims believe the earth to be flat because of Quran??

Despite the critic’s claims the Quran does not say the Earth is flat. The critic tries to use 71:19 from the Quran, however if we view the translation of the Quran we realise the Quran is saying nothing about a flat Earth but is talking about the expanse of the Earth, i.e. it is spread out.

71:19 And Allah has made for you the earth a wide expanse (Muhsin Khan and Al-Hilali translation).

After viewing the translation one would clearly see the critic to be in manifest error. The question is how the critic came to his /her inaccurate claim.

The critic utilizes another translation of the same verse (71:19); the translation the critic uses is the Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation as this translation uses the word “carpet”. The translation:

71: 19: “‘And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out),

However, even this translation does not indicate a flat earth as in the brackets the meaning of the comparison to the carpet is clarified, it simply means “spread out”, hence the earth is spread out in the sense it is spacious for mankind to reside and move over. Dr Zakir Naik goes into further detail concerning this issue:

“The surface of the earth i.e. earth’s crust is less than 30 miles in thickness and is very thin as compared to the radius of the earth which is about 3750 miles. The deeper layers of the earth are very hot, fluid and hostile to any form of life. The earth’s crust is a solidified shell on which we can live. The Qur’an rightly refers to it like a carpet spread out, so that we can travel along its roads and paths.” (1)

To further show the inaccuracy of the critic’s claim, the authoritative explanations (tafasir) of the Quran (e.g. tafsir of Ibn Abbas) has no mention of a flat earth and merely indicates to us that it refers to the expanse of the earth:

And Allah hath made the earth a wide expanse for you) to lay and sleep on (2)

Further refutation of the critics (though further refutation is not required as the evidence already provided is sufficient) we can highlight early Muslim understanding from no less than Ibn Taymiyah who tells us all celestial bodies are round:

[That] celestial bodies are round (istidaaratul-aflaak) – as it is the statement of astronomers and mathematicians (ahlul-hay’ah wal-hisab) – it is [likewise] the statement of the scholars of the Muslims; as Abul-Hasan ibn al-Manaadi, Abu Muhammad ibn Hazm, Abul-Faraj ibn al-Jawzi and others have quoted: that the Muslim scholars are in agreement [that all celestial bodies are round]. (3)

The Earth is a celestial body so we realise Taymiyyah believed the earth to be round. Ibn Taymiyah informs us that he and other Muslims scholars view all celestial bodies to be round.

As we are speaking of the great ibn-Taymiyyah it is opportune to mention one of his admirers; Sheikh Bin baz (passed away in 1999). The reason why I mention this is because many critics use a forgery (a lie) falsely ascribing a quote to Sheikh Bin Baz which claims the earth to be flat. Bin Baz (before his death) denied this and even denounced it as “a lie” (5).

Bin Baz, contrary to what critics allege, did not believe the earth to be flat. This is the depraved and morally bankrupt level the critic would go to in order to attack the Quran; they would basically use forgeries and lies! I mention this to protect the good name of Sheikh Bin Baz and to highlight the critic’s arguments as well as the untruthful nature of their work.

So I ask Muslims to be aware of their claims when they make claims such as “Saudi scholar believes the earth is flat”, I ask Muslims and non-Muslims to know the critics are using forgeries and effectively telling lies/untruths.

Going back to their claim; the Quran (55:17) seems to indicate the earth is round by referring to two easts and two wests. The critics fail to mention this, I guess the truth and scholarly etiquette is of little concern to the critics

However, ironically enough for the Christian critic, the Bible in Job 26:7 uses a similar term; ‘spreads out’ when it concerns the northern (skies) (4). A disingenuous method (the same method the Christian critic employs to attack the Quran concerning verse 71:19) could also be employed by non-Christians to attack this verse of the Bible. This would be unscholarly and intellectually dishonest, the same applies to anybody who attacks the Quran with such a methodology, and hence the critics of the Quran concerning this verse are intellectually dishonest and unscholarly.

May Allah guide the critics and save people from their misleading information. Ameen

Further reading:

http://islam.thetruecall.com/modules.ph ... le&sid=206

http://www.answering-christianity.com/earth_round.htm

Yahya Snow wrote:Does the Quran Teach a Flat Earth? No!Some Chrisitans claim that the Muslims believe the earth to be flat because of Quran??

You can't lay the blame of what the Quran says on the Christians.

Yes, it does teach a flat earth.

Despite the critic’s claims the Quran does not say the Earth is flat. The critic tries to use 71:19 from the Quran, however if we view the translation of the Quran we realise the Quran is saying nothing about a flat Earth but is talking about the expanse of the Earth, i.e. it is spread out.

71:19 And Allah has made for you the earth a wide expanse (Muhsin Khan and Al-Hilali translation).

After viewing the translation one would clearly see the critic to be in manifest error. The question is how the critic came to his /her inaccurate claim.

The critic utilizes another translation of the same verse (71:19); the translation the critic uses is the Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation as this translation uses the word “carpet”. The translation:

71: 19: “‘And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out),

However, even this translation does not indicate a flat earth as in the brackets the meaning of the comparison to the carpet is clarified, it simply means “spread out”, hence the earth is spread out in the sense it is spacious for mankind to reside and move over.

So it's cool for Mr. "Context" (Yahya Snow) here to use a terrible translation that nobody else uses, then claim that the closer translation (Y. Ali) is wrong- based on... what, personal preference?

Let's use a few other translations, shall we:

First, I want to note that Yahya is being quite dishonest, in that he's trying to imply that the Quran doesn't repeat the same point elsewhere. By accident, I found this:

79:30 (Y. Ali): "And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);"
79:30 (Pickthal): "And after that He spread the earth,"
79:30 (Shakir): "And the earth, He expanded it after that."

Now, it's interesting to note that the work that's a clear work of latter-day apologetics, trying to reconcile the Quran with modern sciences (Shakir) says "expanded".

To go back to Yahya's original quote:

71:19 (Y. Ali): "And Allah has made for you the earth a wide expanse,"
71:19 (Pickthal): "And Allah hath made the earth a wide expanse for you"
71:19 (Shakir): "And God has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out),"

So sure, that one might not be talking specifically about a flat earth, but there are other verses that clearly do refer to a flat earth.

Dr Zakir Naik goes into further detail concerning this issue:

“The surface of the earth i.e. earth’s crust is less than 30 miles in thickness and is very thin as compared to the radius of the earth which is about 3750 miles. The deeper layers of the earth are very hot, fluid and hostile to any form of life. The earth’s crust is a solidified shell on which we can live. The Qur’an rightly refers to it like a carpet spread out, so that we can travel along its roads and paths.” (1)

What sort of carpet is rolled up into a ball-like shape?

NONE!!!

Dr. Naik, as usual, is dissimulating.

To further show the inaccuracy of the critic’s claim, the authoritative explanations (tafasir) of the Quran (e.g. tafsir of Ibn Abbas) has no mention of a flat earth and merely indicates to us that it refers to the expanse of the earth:

And Allah hath made the earth a wide expanse for you) to lay and sleep on (2)

What's the source of this Tafsir? Why is it basically just a repeat of the verse, and not an explanation?

Very dishonest of you Yahya.

Further refutation of the critics (though further refutation is not required as the evidence already provided is sufficient) we can highlight early Muslim understanding from no less than Ibn Taymiyah who tells us all celestial bodies are round:

[That] celestial bodies are round (istidaaratul-aflaak) – as it is the statement of astronomers and mathematicians (ahlul-hay’ah wal-hisab) – it is [likewise] the statement of the scholars of the Muslims; as Abul-Hasan ibn al-Manaadi, Abu Muhammad ibn Hazm, Abul-Faraj ibn al-Jawzi and others have quoted: that the Muslim scholars are in agreement [that all celestial bodies are round]. (3)

Where is this source from? This could have been a made-up quote.

The Earth is a celestial body so we realise Taymiyyah believed the earth to be round. Ibn Taymiyah informs us that he and other Muslims scholars view all celestial bodies to be round.

Source again, please. Otherwise this is just so much hot air.

As we are speaking of the great ibn-Taymiyyah it is opportune to mention one of his admirers; Sheikh Bin baz (passed away in 1999). The reason why I mention this is because many critics use a forgery (a lie) falsely ascribing a quote to Sheikh Bin Baz which claims the earth to be flat. Bin Baz (before his death) denied this and even denounced it as “a lie” (5).

Where's the source? "5" is not a source.

Gah, if you're going to copy-paste from sources, AT LEAST copy/paste the references!

Going back to their claim; the Quran (55:17) seems to indicate the earth is round by referring to two easts and two wests. The critics fail to mention this, I guess the truth and scholarly etiquette is of little concern to the critics

No, they "fail to mention it" because it's a red herring and has nothing to do with the flat earth issues in the Quran.

However, ironically enough for the Christian critic, the Bible in Job 26:7 uses a similar term; ‘spreads out’ when it concerns the northern (skies) (4).

*GASP* The Torah has flat earth cosmology! NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!


Too bad for you that most Christians aren't Biblical literalists. Remember that next time your mullah tells you how to relate to the Bible.

A disingenuous method (the same method the Christian critic employs to attack the Quran concerning verse 71:19) could also be employed by non-Christians to attack this verse of the Bible. This would be unscholarly and intellectually dishonest, the same applies to anybody who attacks the Quran with such a methodology, and hence the critics of the Quran concerning this verse are intellectually dishonest and unscholarly.

Actually, no, it can't, because like I said: Most Christians aren't Biblical literalists. You Muslims, on the other hand, are to a man literalists with regards to the Quran.

Which means you've still got to explain how it's wrong about embryology, why the Quran mentions the sun setting in a muddy pool, why it mentions characters (as opposed to actual living human beings) that have been discarded as history by everyone except religious text-believing literalists like yourself (CF: No Moses, no Exodus, the Flood physically impossible, Adam and Eve metaphorical at best, and so forth).... the problems go on and on.

The flat earth problems in the Quran are the LEAST of your problems.

Since we are on the topic of the Qur'an being flat I want to thank Zorasta_Russ for this one.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... sc&start=0

Zorasata_Russ looked up the word flat in an Arabic dictionary. He found several Arabic words that mean flat. He then did a word search in an Arabic text file of the Qur'an and found several of the words meaning flat describing the earth.

Here is one word sutihat.

Zorasata_Russ wrote:وَإِلَى الْأَرْضِ كَيْفَ سُطِحَتْ

And this is what the verse sounds like in Arabic.

Wa-ila al-ardi kayfa sutihat

Wa-ila = and to
al-ardi = the earth
kayfa = how
sutihat = it has been flattened

سَطَّحَ = سَطَحَ = بَسَطَ
outspread , unfold , unroll , roll , lengthen , level , range , pave , pervade , circulate , grade , reach , even , level off , spread out , prostrate , plane , outstretch

http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2 ... 8%f3%cd%f3

Zorasata_Russ was debating with a Muslim. The Muslim couldn't read Arabic or he forgot to read the Tafsir that he used to reply Zorasta_RUSS' s argument . The Tafsir was an interpretation of the verse 88:20. Here it is.

this is the interpretation of the verse 88: 20 by Tabari


وَقَوْله : { وَإِلَى الْأَرْض كَيْف سُطِحَتْ } يَقُول : وَإِلَى الْأَرْض كَيْف بُسِطَتْ , يُقَال : جَبَل مُسَطَّح : إِذَا كَانَ فِي أَعْلَاهُ اِسْتِوَاء . وَبِنَحْوِ الَّذِي قُلْنَا فِي ذَلِكَ قَالَ أَهْل التَّأْوِيل . ذِكْر مَنْ قَالَ ذَلِكَ : 28703 - حَدَّثَنَا بِشْر , قَالَ : ثَنَا يَزِيد , قَالَ : ثَنَا سَعِيد , عَنْ قَتَادَة { وَإِلَى الْأَرْض كَيْف سُطِحَتْ } : أَيْ بُسِطَتْ , يَقُول : أَلَيْسَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ هَذَا بِقَادِرٍ عَلَى أَنْ يَخْلُق مَا أَرَادَ فِي الْجَنَّة

The Tafsir by Tabari is difficult to translate but the relevant part of it means that the earth is a flat mountain on top of the equator. You will never find an English translation of the Tafsir by Tabari on verse 88:20 from any Islamic website.

paarsurrey wrote:Hi friend junkmaster

I would like to ask you a little question. Who and when the Atheists started believing that the Earth is round? Please name the person also.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

I will not answer your red herring question because it is irrelevant to the topic at hand and merely another diversion on your part to avoid answering our valid questions.

Does the Koran espouse a flat earth cosmology?

Yes, we have provided you with many examples of the Koran describing the earth as flat. You have provided us with no evidence the Koran describes the earth any other way other than flat.

Does the Koran claim mountains are 'pegs' that stabilize the 'flat' earth? Yes, we have provided you with evidence as well.

Are mountains acting as 'pegs' to stabilize the earth? No, in fact they are created through instability of the earth.

And the list goes on and on of things the Koran got wrong. None of which you can explain or even address because your mind is washed of all rational thought and instead of honest debate we get dishonest debate and distractions.

I hope one day you can be honest with yourself and us on the inaccuracies of the Koran.

jm

Actually its even more funny when mohammed teaches science

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421 Narrated Abu Dhar:
The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west

Muslims ask mohamed, where did the sun go at night?
mohamed told his men that the sun will go and hide under allah's throne.
and will wait for allah's permission to rise next day.
this show that allah doesnt even know that the sun do not orbit or travel at all.
he thinks that at night the sun go and hide under his throne

if allah knew the earth is round and is orbiting the sun, he would have said that at night our earth is facing away from the sun. poor allah is so ignorant.


Point Learned: The night is a result of Hiding Sun



does anyone want to enrol for mohammed's science class?


not impressed ? then you might be interested in mohammeds master allah


O apostle what are the flaming missiles(meteors) in the night sky.?
muhammad: do you not know allah make the lamps to decorate the night sky? allah will change the lamps into missile and throw at the jinns if they try to eavesdrop on the engels meeting in heaven. here allah doesnt know that the lamps are giant stars. allah thinks that stars and meteors are the same. he is so retarded. but the arabs were fooled by muhammad. what baloney. clearly allah is ignorant





Q. 72: 8/9
“And (the Jinn who had listened to the Qur'an said): We had sought the heaven but had found it filled with strong warders and meteors.
And we used to sit on places (high) therein to listen. But he who listeneth now findeth a flame in wait for him"

He repeated the same absurd idea again.

Q. 37: 6/10
”We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars,
(For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits,
(So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side,
Repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty,
Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness.

And

Q. 67: 5
“And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.”


The most notable thing about Koran is being repititive and inconsistent.See how many times the forgetfull allah talks about adornig heaven with lamps.