A debate on Scriptures

[KhaliL FarieL]

____________________________________________

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Quoting various scriptures to authenticate the prophet-hood of Muhammad is a technique adopted by Muslims of this era. For the purpose, they will turn to Bible, Vedas, and perhaps more importantly a Bhavishya Purana that is alleged to have predicted the coming of a “Mlecha” (foreign) prophet named “Mahamada”.

But what these Muslims conveniently forget is the fact; none of these scriptures (other than Bible and scriptures related to it) are mentioned in Qur’an. The holy book of Muslims is so constricted that it could not go beyond Bible. Qur’an was written in the context of seventh century Middle East, so it is no surprise it is constricted in Bible and Biblical prophets. The text has no depth to incorporate anything or anyone outside this sphere.

See what an Islamic website says on scriptures mentioned in Qur’an:

We can see that all these prophets came to the people who lived in different lands in different periods of history. And we know that all the prophets were not given Books; in fact only to a few of them did Allah reveal His Books of Guidance.
Among those who received Books, were the four mentioned in the Glorious Qur'an: Moses, David, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be on them all). The Books were the Tawrah (Torah) given to Moses (Musa), The Zaboor (Psalms) given to David (Dawud), the Injeel (Gospel) given to Jesus (`Isa) and the Qur'an given to Muhammad (peace be upon them all).
Apart from these, Abraham (Ibrahim) is mentioned as the recipient of suhuf or scrolls.
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Sat ... 7365884857

No Muslims can have an argument the great Vedas of Indians are pure and uncorrupted religious scriptures sent down by Allah to the people of India. There is no indication to this conception in any of Islamic sources. Yet, they quote Vedas and the hymns in it when they suit them. Same is true of Puranas too. Bhavishya Purana which Muslims habitually quote because of a prophecy included in it of Muhammad’s arrival, has gone through various transformations throughout ages and it is no surprise we find incidents mentioned in it that are occurred in nineteenth century too.

The text dates back to BC but when we understand even Queen Victoria is mentioned in it, we can rightly assume of its highly corrupted status. And it is the penury of Muslims that they have to rely on such a corrupted work to authenticate the prophet-hood of Muhammad..!!

I have a question to Muslims: since Vedas and Puranas are not divine, why should you quote them to authenticate the prophet-hood of Muhammad? If you want to quote from these scriptures, you must have a claim that Vedas and Puranas are divine scriptures from Allah but human beings corrupted them. Such a claim requires substantiation from authentic Islamic sources too. But as I said earlier, Allah never went beyond the sphere of Middle East. Islam has a Middle East context for the same reason. As a result, however Muslims try to misinterpret their sources, they can never find any mention to any community that was alive and thriving in China or India at the time their prophet was wandering all over the desert of Arabia in the north. And for the very reason, they can never find indication to Chinese or Hindu scriptures in their Qur’an or other authentic sources.

The Muslim I am currently debating with argues, if he/she finds anything in Vedas or Puranas that are corroborating to Qur’an, he/she would accept it. Good for the Muslim I would say but that does not make any difference at all. Only if Muslim can attest to the divinity of Vedas, Upanishads or Puranas that will make any difference but as long as Muslim can not, there is no importance for a highly corrupted Bhavishya Purana predicting the coming of Muhammad.

Do you understand this logic Muslim? I can revise any Purana and add in it a prediction to the coming of a prophet called David Koresh or Shoko Asahara. Does that make either David Koresh or Shoko Asahara divine prophets of god?

If NOT, then what makes a “Mahamada” predicted in Bhavishya Purana a true prophet of god?

Muslim might argue, I do not have any proof of the corruption of “Bhavishya Purana”. In fact, I do have, because the very fact Bhavishya Purana contains incidents that are occurred in the past century is a proof of its corruptness. I can not prove who inserted the prophecy concerning Muhammad in the same Purana. So what? As a Muslim, you believe Bible is corrupted. But you have no proof of its corruptness. You can not prove when the corruption of Bible occurred. You can not prove who inserted corrupted verses in Bible.

But you still believe Bible is corrupted. Aren’t you Muslim?

On the other hand, we infidels can prove the corrupted status of Qur’an. From the Sahih sources of Islam, we understand some verses are removed from Muslims' holy book. See Omar the second caliph of Islam testifies to the loss of verses in Qur’an:

'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession. [Sahih Muslim: Book 17, Hadith :4194]

What do you say Muslim? Omar’s concern was right, the verses pertaining to Rajam (stoning of adulterers) are lost in the present day Qur’an. Since Omar testifies they were revealed to prophet and Muslims recited the verses and prophet implemented the punishment in his times, we should see them in the present day Qur’an but I challenge any Muslim to come up with a Qur’an that contains verses of Rajam.


Regards
KF

[paarsurrey]

Hi friend KhaliL FarieL

Do you testify that Vedas and Bible are uncorrupted. I think being an Atheist you don't testify as such. Corrupted does not mean that the whole of it is corrupted. Corrupted means, things have been added or things have bee subtracted to the original.

I think you would agree with me on this point.

If you are not a Hindu or a Jew or Christian; but you are an Atheist, then you should come out from your own standpoint. Why should you then take cover of the Vedas and Bible? Are they the Scriptures of the Atheists? You don't have any scriptures of your own; that is your weakness.

If you have to attack Muslims; attack from your own stronghold, if you have any. Probably the Atheists don't have a ground of their own to stand upon. They could not develop a system of their own; they just walk confused in doubts.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

[KhaliL FarieL]

Hi friend KhaliL FarieL

Do you testify that Vedas and Bible are uncorrupted.

I don’t testify to the purity or impurity of either Vedas or Bible. Because….

I think being an Atheist you don't testify as such.

....being an atheist, I don’t view either scriptures are from god. The notion of purity or corruptness of scriptures stems from a premise; the scriptures are from a divine authority. I don’t attest to this divine authority. So, you are right.

Corrupted does not mean that the whole of it is corrupted. Corrupted means, things have been added or things have bee subtracted to the original.
I think you would agree with me on this point.

I agree with you on this.

If you are not a Hindu or a Jew or Christian; but you are an Atheist, then you should come out from your own standpoint.

Of course, I have my standpoint. But the question whether I am an atheist or not is no more relevant than a question whether I am European or African. Pay attention to what is said, and pay little attention to the person who said.

Why should you then take cover of the Vedas and Bible?

Where did you get this hint that I am taking over Vedas and Bible?

Are they the Scriptures of the Atheists?

Atheists do not claim to have any scriptures of their own. But your point?

You don't have any scriptures of your own; that is your weakness.

Oh really? Then would you please enlighten me what makes me weak because of the lack of any scriptures?

If you have to attack Muslims; attack from your own stronghold, if you have any.

That is what I am doing all these times. As you get along, you will get used to it;

Probably the Atheists don't have a ground of their own to stand upon.

??? What ground are you talking about? Do you think this ground (standpoint) is a luxury that we atheists can not afford? What makes you think so?

They could not develop a system of their own;

And why it is important to have a system? Or what do you mean by we atheists could not develop a system? What kind of system?

they just walk confused in doubts.

I have doubts on many things as any human being living over this planet should have. If you have cleared all of your doubts by disembarking them on supernatural; that means you have found your way of escapism.

But that hardly is answer to any. If you think it is, best of luck but let me say:

“Deep in the ocean are riches beyond compare, but if you seek safety, it is on the shore”.

You may stay on the shore;

Anything else?

KF

[paarsurrey]

Hi friends

‎Quran as the word means was the revelation ‎descended on the heart of Muhammad from God Allah YHWH and he was guaranteed ‎from Him that he need not worry about making strenuous effort to remember the ‎Revelation; he would remember it naturally and he would not forget it. From Muhammad ‎his companions learnt it by heart or committed it to their memory.Writing the revelation ‎was only an auxiliary measure adopted by Muhammad.

‎
It was not made incumbent on Muhammad, in my opinion, by any clear verse in Quran to ‎commit it to writing; I don’t see any such verse in Quran. Muhammad and his ‎companions loved Quran and exactly as the word Quran meant they recited Quran very ‎often, in the prayers and even without it; this is not an unusual thing, upto our times this ‎practice continues among Muslims. The text of Quran was compiled already in the ‎memory of Muhammad and his companions in the same form as it is found in our times ‎without any change. It needed no further compilation or collection.

‎
One could go to any Muslim Mosque in any part of the world; there one could find ‎persons who remember Quran by heart. One may take a copy of Quran with one and ‎request them to recite Quran from their memory. One would find that there is no ‎difference in the written and the recited Quran from the heart.
‎
There are so many verses in Quran from God Allah YHWH which say that He had made ‎it very easy to learn Quran and to commit it to memory. The Creator has made the human ‎mind and memory aligned and attuned to remember Quran with ease and convenience. I ‎don’t think there is any other Book in the world of the size of Quran which is committend ‎to memory with love as the Muslims do with Quran, only because it is a natural ‎Revelation from God Allah YHWH- the Creator and He has taken it on Himself that it would remain ‎secure and protected in all times to come.

I think our research minded and wise friend, KhaliL FarieL and other Atheist friends and brothers in humanity, would testify to it.
‎
The written Quran was and is but a reflection of the loving heart of Muhammad, his ‎companions and the faithful believers in the whole world. Nobody could scratch it out of ‎their hearts; howsoever one tries.
‎
It is remarkable indeed.

With the preservation of Quran; since all the pricipled teachings of all the world revealed religions have been included in it; in this sense the truthful books/teachings of all the revealed religions of the world have been secured through Quran and hence made redundent.

The Atheists did not receive any revelation from the Creator; so their stance is unnatural that is their weakness, in my opinion.
‎
All human beings are just like a family; every one of them is to loved and respected and noone is to be hated.

Thanks

[sword_of_truth]

One could go to any Muslim Mosque in any part of the world; there one could find ‎persons who remember Quran by heart. One may take a copy of Quran with one and ‎request them to recite Quran from their memory. One would find that there is no ‎difference in the written and the recited Quran from the heart.

Uthman burned the different Qurans in order to standardize them. You forgot about that part.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/uthman.htm

See if you can refute that article for us.

Even if you were to succeed in that, which you won't, this still illustrates how it is possible for Qurans today to agree, but still have been corrupted. That claim is FAR, FAR from being established, even if it turns out that Uthman's standardization was legitimate.

[paarsurrey]

Uthman burned the different Qurans in order to standardize them. You forgot about that part.

Hi friend sword_of_truth

Please let me know your denomination/sect/faith/religion while replying.

Usman's only , but very appreciable, contribution was to publish the Quran and to standardise it. It was the same as was revealed on the heart of Muhammad and which a larg number of his companions had already committed to their memory.

Muhammad had also as an axiliary measure or as a supporting measure, got the revelation of Quran written by appointed scribes, on pieces of cloth,pieces of leather or leaves of the trees, as the verses of the Quran were not and could not be in a sequence.They got revealed as and when an event would happen. Whenever the Angel revealed a portion of a chapter; he guided Muhammad as to where the same were to be put, before or after such and such verse. This was possible in the memory of heart but not otherwise. The paper was also not available in abundance; so the pieces could not be in the book form.

Usman collected all these pieces and arranged them in the sequence of what was already committed to heart and memory by a large number of the companions of Muhammad. The axiliary utility of those pieces of leaves, bones, pieces of cloth, leather etc had reached to it logical and purposeful conclusion so these were not needed anymore and were disposed off appropriately.

Quran is a Revelation with the systems ;that is why it is and was called a book. If it would have not been written altogether, even then it would have been called a book due to this reason and in this sense.

Usman's contribution was that he published the revelation that was already being recited by everybody from memory; for the convenience of the people in other lands where people had converted to Islam in large numbers and hence there was a demand of it. Usman or anyone else could not and did not change or could not afford to change anything of the Quran.

I think it is reasonable and should be easy to understand for our reasonable friends here.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

[expozIslam]

Uthman burned the different Qurans in order to standardize them. You forgot about that part.

Hi friend sword_of_truth

Please let me know your denomination/sect/faith/religion while replying.

Stop your non-sense. If you want to debate an argument, do so based on the argument and not the person. Why is it so hard for you to understand?

Usman's only , but very appreciable, contribution was to publish the Quran and to standardise it.

Standardise it? So, he fixed the loose ends. :erm:

It was the same as was revealed on the heart of Muhammad and which a larg number of his companions had already committed to their memory.

which begs the question why God did not send a proper recording device to Mohammad when the message was so important?

Muhammad had also as an axiliary measure or as a supporting measure, got the revelation of Quran written by appointed scribes, on pieces of cloth,pieces of leather or leaves of the trees,

and yet no Allah failed to give him a recording tape, a dvd. Why? Oh yeah, because the infidels had not invented it yet.

as the verses of the Quran were not and could not be in a sequence.

Very odd indeed. Isn't it? We all are born, eat, shit and die in a sequence but your allah forgot to reveal the most important book in a sequence.

They got revealed as and when an event would happen.

which implies that God did not know what would happen. Some smelling rotten here?

Whenever the Angel revealed a portion of a chapter; he guided Muhammad as to where the same were to be put, before or after such and such verse.

really. how do you know that?

This was possible in the memory of heart but not otherwise.

Can you tell me what you said exactly one month ago at 5pm?

The paper was also not available in abundance; so the pieces could not be in the book form.

which again begs the question that Allah was too dumb to not realize that kafirs will invent paper and printers not too longer after he reveals his most important book.

Usman collected all these pieces and arranged them in the sequence of what was already committed to heart and memory by a large number of the companions of Muhammad.

is this written in Quran somewhere? how do you know? The last time we talked, you did not believe in hadiths and how do you know he got it all right. To err is human. isn't it?

The axiliary utility of those pieces of leaves, bones, pieces of cloth, leather etc had reached to it logical and purposeful conclusion so these were not needed anymore and were disposed appropriately.

says who?

Quran is a Revelation with the systems ;that is why it is and was called a book. If it would have not been written altogether, even then it would have been called a book due to this reason and in this sense.

I cannot make any sense of what you are tyring to say.

Usman's contribution was that he published the revelation that was already being recited by everybody from memory; for the convenience of the people in other lands where people had converted to Islam in large numbers and hence there was a demand of it.

How do you manage to lie to yourself everyday?

Usman or anyone else could not and did not change or could not afford to change anything of the Quran.

and why not?

I think it is reasonable and should be easy to understand for our friends here.

yes it is and that is why we wonder why you don't get it. It is quite easy to understand that quran is a hate manual that should be flushed down the toilet.

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey wrote:

They got revealed as and when an event would happen.

which implies that God did not know what would happen.

Hi friend expozIslam

The revelation and arrangement/collection of verses of Quran had two modes. Quran's Revelation is rational and practical; it not all concepts. As the events happened and the Muslim's needed guidance; Quran recorded the needed history and also as to what was to be done. It is entirely based on Revelation from the Creator- God Allah YHWH.

Whenever the Angel revealed a portion of a chapter; he guided Muhammad as to where the same were to be put, before or after such and such verse; and Muhammad and his companion would memorize the Quran as per the guidance provided.

When Revelation of all the verses of Quran got completed; the Angel recited the whole Quran on Muhammad two times; which was the same as we have today with us and which was the same as described in the last passage.

Usman's contribution is only to publish Quran far and wide; as the Muslims have spread to many lands now.

I don't see, why my Atheist friends are compelled to find fault with the Quran; while they uphold reason and rationality. They should not be compelled by their specific circmstances to find fault with Quran. It is true that the true Muslims have their minds/brains washed, as sometimes our Atheist friends say, with the revelation from the Creator, and hence we Ahmadi peaceful Muslims don't use the unclean language and style as our Atheists friends are used to.

I pray/request the Atheists should also wash off their brains of any base/dirt that be there; and when they come with a reason it should be clean and purified. The languge one speaks shows the dirt/cleanliness one has in ones mind/brain; it is easy to understand.

The Athesist are reasonable, research oriented and arguments loving people ; why mix their bright arguments if they have with dirty words and style they use.

One of the purposes of advent of Muhammad as set by the Creator- God Allah YHWH, was to :

‎[2:129] ‘Our Lord, make us submissive to Thee and make of our offspring a people ‎submissive to Thee. And show us our ways of worship, and turn to us with mercy; ‎for Thou art Oft-Returning with compassion and Merciful. ‎
‎[2:130] ‘And, our Lord, raise up among them a Messenger from among themselves, ‎who may recite to them Thy Signs and teach them the Book and Wisdom and may ‎purify them; surely, Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.’ ‎
‎[2:131] And who will turn away from the religion of Abraham but he who is foolish of ‎mind? Him did We choose in this world, and in the next he will surely be among the ‎righteous.‎

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh ... h=2&verse=‎‎128‎

This is what I believe from my own free will; others could believe differently; no compulsion.‎

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey wrote:
‎
They got revealed as and when an event would happen.‎

‎

expozIslam wrote:

which implies that God did not know what would happen. ‎
‎

‎
Hi friend expozIslam
‎
The revelation and arrangement/collection of verses of Quran had two modes. Quran's ‎Revelation is rational and practical; it not all concepts. As the events happened and the ‎Muslim's needed guidance; Quran recorded the needed history and also as to what was to ‎be done. It is entirely based on Revelation from the Creator- God Allah YHWH.
‎
Whenever the Angel revealed a portion of a chapter; he guided Muhammad as to where ‎the same were to be put, before or after such and such verse; and Muhammad and his ‎companion would memorize the Quran as per the guidance provided.
‎
When Revelation of all the verses of Quran got completed; the Angel recited the whole ‎Quran on Muhammad two times; which was the same as we have today with us and ‎which was the same as described in the last passage.
‎
Usman's contribution is only to publish Quran far and wide; as the Muslims have spread ‎to many lands now.
‎
I don't see, why my Atheist friends are compelled to find fault with the Quran; while they ‎uphold reason and rationality. They should not be compelled by their specific ‎circmstances to find fault with Quran. It is true that the true Muslims have their ‎minds/brains washed, as sometimes our Atheist friends say, with the revelation from the ‎Creator, and hence we Ahmadi peaceful Muslims don't use the unclean language and ‎style as our Atheists friends are used to.
‎
I pray/request the Atheists should also wash off their brains of any base/dirt that be there; ‎and when they come with a reason it should be clean and purified. The languge one ‎speaks shows the dirt/cleanliness one has in ones mind/brain; it is easy to understand.
‎
The Athesist are reasonable, research oriented and arguments loving people ; why mix ‎their bright arguments if they have with dirty words and style they use.
‎
One of the purposes of advent of Muhammad as set by the Creator- God Allah YHWH, ‎was to :
‎
‎[2:129] ‘Our Lord, make us submissive to Thee and make of our offspring a people ‎‎submissive to Thee. And show us our ways of worship, and turn to us with mercy; ‎for ‎Thou art Oft-Returning with compassion and Merciful. ‎
‎[2:130] ‘And, our Lord, raise up among them a Messenger from among themselves, ‎who ‎may recite to them Thy Signs and teach them the Book and Wisdom and may ‎purify ‎them; surely, Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.’ ‎
‎[2:131] And who will turn away from the religion of Abraham but he who is foolish of ‎‎mind? Him did We choose in this world, and in the next he will surely be among the ‎‎righteous.‎
‎
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh ... h=2&verse=‎‎128‎
‎
This is what I believe from my own free will; others could believe differently; no ‎compulsion.‎
‎
I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.
‎
Thanks

[expozIslam]

paarsurrey wrote:

They got revealed as and when an event would happen.

which implies that God did not know what would happen.

Hi friend expozIslam

The revelation and arrangement/collection of verses of Quran had two modes. Quran's Revelation is rational and practical; it not all concepts. As the events happened and the Muslim's needed guidance; Quran recorded the needed history and also as to what was to be done. It is entirely based on Revelation from the Creator- God Allah YHWH.

Whenever the Angel revealed a portion of a chapter; he guided Muhammad as to where the same were to be put, before or after such and such verse; and [color=#FF00BF]Muhammad and his companion would memorize the Quran as per the guidance provided.

and what about the billions of events that took place after that. How is a person on north pole supposed to offer prayers, observe ramadan? Is traveling by plane haram or halal? Is use of nuclear bombs halal or haram? Is use of medicines halal or haram?
What does your Quran say about conjointed twins? Should they be separated or not? Did your allah will them to be conjoined? There are millions of questions that one can ask but only if one uses just 2% of ones brain. You have left your brains in Quran and are talking like a pre-programmed device.

[paarsurrey]

And what about the billions of events that took place after that. How is a person on north pole supposed to offer prayers, observe ramadan? Is traveling by plane haram or halal? Is use of nuclear bombs halal or haram? Is use of medicines halal or haram?
What does your Quran say about conjointed twins? Should they be separated or not? Did your allah will them to be conjoined? There are millions of questions that one can ask but only if one uses just 2% of ones brain. You have left your brains in Quran and are talking like a pre-programmed device.

Hi friends

All these problems have and would be solved under guidance from Quran/Islam/Muhammad. It is a system and it is always reasonable to understand a system under a system; otherwise all the issues would be mixed up and the confused Atheists would be more confused due to not following any sytem in their life. Better follow a sytem rather than to move about haphazardly under the name of free will; that is the history of the Atheists since inception. Theirs sum total of contribution to human knowledge is not much; they try to own things attributed to persons who never boldly ever admitted to be Atheists with a conviction.

So fashion up your minds to discuss issues which are basic; and the issues which are not basic should be discussed later.

I think it is reasonable.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

[ygalg]

that is bizarre. and how convenient that not enough to claim Jews and Christians corrupted the Scriptures. but also entire followers of other religions. and islamists are the ones who have the ability to keep their scripture intact.

are islamists demigods? angels?

isn't the schism that exist in Islamic ummah, evident that islamists are far from perfect? and therefore to trust on their ability to keep purity it is absurd? I'm convinced it is.

[expozIslam]

Let me ask you a few very simple questions
You claim that God made us so that we could worship him and that is why he sent Mohammad to us. Right?
Now, tell me what would you do if you expect someone to do something for you? Would you not insulate that person from all the other worries so that he may focus on one activity that you expect him to do?

[piscohot]

Let me ask you a few very simple questions
You claim that God made us so that we could worship him and that is why he sent Mohammad to us. Right?
Now, tell me what would you do if you expect someone to do something for you? Would you not insulate that person from all the other worries so that he may focus on one activity that you expect him to do?

9 wives including one who's a juvenile, concubines, sex slaves and 20% of booties are what you call....... incentives.

revelations as and when Muhammad needed them (eg, marrying daughter in law) are special bonuses.

Don't you know 'prophets' get special privileges?

Ask AhmedBag"O"BS

[paarsurrey]

That is bizarre. And how convenient that not enough to claim Jews and Christians corrupted the Scriptures; ‎but also entire followers of other religions;and Islamists are the ones who have the ability to keep their ‎scripture intact.‎

Are Islamists demigods? Angels? ‎

Hi friend yglag

It is not our doing; it is what they did themselves to their scriptures.

Now let us examine it in another way; we should look for the claim and reason for this.

The Atheists don't have any Scriptures; so they are very unlucky that the Creator did not like to talk to them ; very sorry for that; it is their free will or a wild free will indeed! They are there yet they not have been created by any Creator; it is like believing one is there but one has not been born of a mother or one's mother never mated with a male. The Atheists has not seen his mother mating with her male; and when she gave birth to her child; he/she never saw her or could not remember being born. The Atheist can only conjecture in this connection as wild as saying like he is born of a rabbit.


To start with the Christians. The Christians here or the ex-Christians, now turned Atheists or Agnostic; they should come forward and quote the verse from the New Testament where it had claimed that it will not be corrupted and it will remain secure and protected always.

Please quote such verse, in the original language revealed and together with its English translation from the New Testament with the context, five preceding and five following verses and establish you point of viwe.

Please don't shy off, if you are sincere and serious.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

[paarsurrey]

Let me ask you a few very simple questions
You claim that God made us so that we could worship him and that is why he sent Mohammad to us. Right?
Now, tell me what would you do if you expect someone to do something for you? Would you not insulate that person from all the other worries so that he may focus on one activity that you expect him to do?

Hi friend expozIslam

The Promised Messiah 1835-1908, through whom all religions have been revived by the grace of God, has explained this question:

The Object of Man’s Life and the
Means of its Attainment

Different people, being short-sighted and lacking high resolve appoint different ‎purposes for their lives and limit themselves to worldly goals and ambitions. But the ‎purpose that God Almighty has appointed for man in His Holy Word is as follows:‎

I have created men and jinn so that they may know Me and worship Me (51:57). ‎

Thus the true purpose of man’s life is the worship of God, His understanding and ‎complete devotion to Him.‎

It is obvious that man is not in a position to appoint the purpose of his own life, for he ‎does not come into the world of his own accord, nor will he depart therefrom of his ‎own will. He is a creature and the One Who created him and invested him with better ‎and higher faculties than those of all other animals, has also appointed a purpose for ‎his life. Whether anyone penetrates to it or not, the purpose of man’s creation without ‎a doubt is the worship and the understanding of God and complete devotion to Him. ‎At another place God Almighty has said in the Holy Quran:‎

The religion which provides true understanding of God and prescribes
His true worship is Islam (3:20).‎
‎ ‎
Islam is inherent in man’s nature and man has been created in accord with Islam. That ‎is the everlasting faith (30:31). ‎

This means that God has desired that man should devote himself to His worship and ‎obedience and love with all his faculties. That is why He has bestowed on man all the ‎faculties that are appropriate for Islam.‎

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Ph ... -Islam.pdf

Thanks

[expozIslam]

Let me ask you a few very simple questions
You claim that God made us so that we could worship him and that is why he sent Mohammad to us. Right?
Now, tell me what would you do if you expect someone to do something for you? Would you not insulate that person from all the other worries so that he may focus on one activity that you expect him to do?

Hi friend expozIslam

The Promised Messiah 1835-1908, through whom all religions have been revived by the grace of God, has explained this question:

The Object of Man’s Life and the
Means of its Attainment

Different people, being short-sighted and lacking high resolve appoint different ‎purposes for their lives and limit themselves to worldly goals and ambitions. But the ‎purpose that God Almighty has appointed for man in His Holy Word is as follows:‎

I have created men and jinn so that they may know Me and worship Me (51:57). ‎

Thus the true purpose of man’s life is the worship of God, His understanding and ‎complete devotion to Him.‎

When people outsource their thinking to a 7th century mad man, this is what we get.
Here are a few more questions based on your answer
a) Why would Allah want us to know him and yet hide himself away?
b) What would you do if you want your kids to have very good education? Would you make them work or would you ensure that that they don't have to fight for living and can focus on their studies?
Your God fails in this duty miserably. He wants you to worship him but he creates hurdles in your path and gives you a mind that can take you away from worship.May I ask why?

[paarsurrey]

He wants you to worship him but he creates hurdles in your path and gives you a mind that can take you away from worship.May I ask why?

Hi friend expozIslam

I think you have miserably failed to understand the concept of Salat/Worship of Quran/Islam/Muhammad. The whole life of a true Muslim spent according to the guidance given by the Creator-God Allah YHWH is worship of Him. A man is working on a job to earn livelihood to earn bread and butter for his family is worship; the time he spends with his wife, children and friends is also worship etc, etc.

Atheists Agnostics are advised to study Quran only then they could understand Quran/Islam/Muhammad; just criticizing proves that they are very narrow minded.

Please think on the follwoing verses of Quran (in fact it is a full chapter on Salat/worship and its true concept):

‎[107:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful. ‎
‎[107:2] Hast thou seen him who rejects religion? ‎
‎[107:3] That is the one who drives away the orphan, ‎
‎[107:4] And urges not the feeding of the poor. ‎
‎[107:5] So woe to those who pray*, ‎
‎[107:6] But are unmindful of their Prayer**. ‎
‎[107:7] They like to be seen of men, ‎
‎[107:8] And withhold legal alms.‎

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh ... php?ch=107‎

‎* the worshippers ** salat/worship‎

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.‎

Thanks

[sparky]

To start with the Christians. The Christians here or the ex-Christians, now turned Atheists or Agnostic; they should come forward and quote the verse from the New Testament where it had claimed that it will not be corrupted and it will remain secure and protected always.

Please quote such verse, in the original language revealed and together with its English translation from the New Testament with the context, five preceding and five following verses and establish you point of viwe.

Hi paarsurrey,

I think you need to back up a bit. For the Jews and Christians, scripture was what recorded the events of God's interaction with his people - not just a long narrative of rules and regulations. It seems to me that Mohammed got a bit carried away with these books such that he understood them to be something that God 'sent down' to give a new list of rules to people on earth. Prior to this, at no point was God dependent on supernaturally 'protecting' these written words in order to make himself known to people.

So the question you need to answer is how it is that the Quran simultaneously endorses the earlier scriptures - even advising people to refer to them - while, according to you, also claiming that they were corrupted. Why would God advise people to consult corrupted scriptures?

This is why you get yourself in such a mess insisting on perfect prophets and perfect preservation of scriptures. Before Mohammed, God seemed quite able to carry out his purposes through people who were all too human in their failures. Noah was a drunkard, Abraham was a liar, Lot was also a drunkard and his daughters were incentuous, Jacob was a deceiver, Elijah was a moaner, Moses was a murderer, David was an adulterer and a murderer, Solomon was an idolater and a polygamist etc, etc.

Now you tell me, is it likely that the Jews corrupted their own scriptures to make their heroes look bad or that this is just how they were and God used them anyway?

So, in answer to your question, no, you won't find such a verse - in fact there is an admission that the OT law was completely lost for a couple hundred years - because God was never dependent on perfect transmission to make himself known. (Not that the Jews weren't careful in their transmission)

This is just one more example of something new that started with Mohammed. So when someone comes forward and starts claiming things that don't fit with anything that went before - does it make sense to accept it as a continuation of the same thing? Or a brand new invention that has nothing to do with the God of the Jews at all.

Cheers,
sparky

[ygalg]

Hi friend yglag

It is not our doing; it is what they did themselves to their scriptures.

I don't take an assertion based on myth, to be a compass to history. provide historical source that support your assertion.

and you don't answer my question.
"Are Islamists demigods? Angels?" that would tell us whether Islamists are exempt from same scrutiny.