65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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Maersk
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Maersk »

fudgy wrote:MBL you are simply wasting your time. The term "lamp" suggest something that is gaseous/plasmic of nature and are capable of giving off radiation. Meteroids are solid objects made of irons. Lamp and meteroids doesn't go hand in hand. If the translators thinks it's talking about a meteroid then it is their problem. What I said makes hell lot more sense. A magnetar is a neutron star that shoots of radiation such as Gamma Rays, which does indeed work like a missile and fits description of a lamp much better than does a meteroid. Now, I am not claiming that Quran is talking about magnetars or blazars, but Allah fires something to that effect to deter the Jinns. And also please spare me your ignorance that Allah could not fire something that is already moving as a missile. Yeah how in the world can Allah fire something as a missile that is already moving lol. I am done with this very ignorance topic.

Nabil,
And all these must have taken place under the Big Top of Allah. How low were these lamps hung at the lower heaven? What lower heavens?!!

I have heard Muslims speaking of Islam as being progressive. And that to the morons of Muslims must mean that they can twist and turn stories around as they receive new information Allah given to non - Muslims.

Of course the morons that Modk was didn't know that but it served him well back when idiots were easily impressed by the Clown of the Big Top.

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by fudgy »

Maersk please instead of talking gibberish you are better off spending your precious energy on something else.

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by fudgy »

debunker wrote:@ ken
Now, let's scrutinize the Suraa 65:4, the verse "Yaisna mina al-maheedhi" means "those women who desperate of menses" implying those women who have reached puberty but still do not menstruate. It can refer to those women who have reached menopause.
:lol:
Here's another tidbit for you to witness the injunction of Quran in application: 'Umar asked 'Ali for the hand of his daughter, Umm Kulthum in marriage. 'Ali replied that she has not yet attained the age (of maturity). 'Umar replied, 'By Allah, this is not true. You do not want her to marry me. If she is underage, send her to me'. Thus 'Ali gave his daughter Umm Kulthum a dress and asked her to go to 'Umar and tell him that her father wants to know what this dress is for. When she came to Umar and gave him the message, he grabbed her hand and forcibly pulled her towards him. 'Umm Kulthum asked him to leave her hand, which Umar did and said, 'You are a very mannered lady with great morals. Go and tell your father that you are very pretty and you are not what he said of you'. With that 'Ali married Umm Kulthum to 'Umar." [In Tarikh Khamees, Volume 2, p. 384 ('Dhikr Umm Kalthum') and Zakhair Al-Aqba, p. 168]

You can just deny the story but historically speaking, marriage among minors were never a prohibited action in 7th century Arabia. It's democratically( due to accepted by majority) held to be normal at that time.
My my, you just shot yourself in the foot. Ali said NO! because he thought his daughter was NOT mature yet and Omar said yes she was but Ali didn't want to marry her off to him... so far what does that mean? Hmm? Both men were aware that immature girls are not to be married.

Now, the rest of this story is simply laughable: So Ali agrees to send his daughter to the home of a man to check her up, huh? Ok, I'll pretend that this is possible but how did the mariage eventually take place? Umar convinced her to tell her father that she's not like what her father claimed... meaning that she's not immature... Of course the whole thing is an obvious silly lie, but it does indicate that at least Umar/Ali were convinced that those who didn't attain the age of maturity can't be married.
As for your defence on the word "Nisa" that exclusively refer to women without compromy, it's a lame excuse. "Nisa" refers to women of all ages which may incluse either infant or adult women.
Stop wasting my time kid. Nisa can only mean women. Period.
Hahaha, welcome to the world of Bukhari or whoever wrote that.

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Maersk
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Maersk »

fudgy wrote:Maersk please instead of talking gibberish you are better off spending your precious energy on something else.
Talking about the clown gives me great pleasure. Its the gibberish Islam giving energy to Muslims that is something else. Maybe its the gamma rays.

How low is the the LOWER heavens according to Clown of the Big Top ( Canopy )?? And at what level would muslims consider as HIGHER heavens?!! :lotpot:

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Maersk »

Before you 'clove' together an answer for FFI readers. Let FFI readers ponder over what moving navigation lamps that they see which adorn the night sky?

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by kenmirzz »

My my, you just shot yourself in the foot. Ali said NO! because he thought his daughter was NOT mature yet and Omar said yes she was but Ali didn't want to marry her off to him... so far what does that mean? Hmm? Both men were aware that immature girls are not to be married.
Did I? I dont think so. Check her(Umm Khultum) age at that time and dont waste time defending something indefensible. Either you accept the story as whole or you discard as a whole, no medial way here ok. Their disagreement on her maturity obviously means that puberty or first menstruation was not a hindrance to marriage back then. They know that Quran sanctioned it, "Prophet" allowed it and Muslims ( 7th century Arabia) generally practiced it. Taking the Hadiths, Siraa and all Islamic literatures with a "grain of salt" will salvage you partially though.
Stop wasting my time kid. Nisa can only mean women. Period.
OK. Are you an Arab? If an Arab wife just delivered a baby, her husband will ask her: "Nisa'un Aw Rijaalun"? Boy or Girl? I hope this helps.

Remind me if I have committed error somewhere, I will retract with apology. Afterall, I am but a truthseeker.

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

fudgy wrote:MBL you are simply wasting your time. The term "lamp" suggest something that is gaseous/plasmic of nature and are capable of giving off radiation.
It specifically mentions the zodiacal signs, liar. That refers to the stars.
fudgy wrote: Meteroids are solid objects made of irons. Lamp and meteroids doesn't go hand in hand. If the translators thinks it's talking about a meteroid then it is their problem. What I said makes hell lot more sense. A magnetar is a neutron star that shoots of radiation such as Gamma Rays, which does indeed work like a missile and fits description of a lamp much better than does a meteroid.
Then why does 15:18 tell us that they are clear flame pursuing and bright to see? Do we see gamma rays? No. i said this in my last post. Read it for a change, ok? I guess it just floated right past your head because you didn't like it. Shees, what does it take to get anything through your skull?

fudgy wrote: Now, I am not claiming that Quran is talking about magnetars or blazars, but Allah fires something to that effect to deter the Jinns.
What else is in the sky, that we can see brightly, that looks like a flame, that appears to fly across the sky chasing something as if it was fired? Come on fudgy, quit lying to us, and more importantly, quit lying to yourself.
fudgy wrote: And also please spare me your ignorance that Allah could not fire something that is already moving as a missile. Yeah how in the world can Allah fire something as a missile that is already moving lol. I am done with this very ignorance topic.

Nabil,
See above. Every single excuse you attempted was thoroughly debunked. Every single one. So what's your new excuse? Here's the simple question again, that I know you won't answer.

What is in the sky, that we can brightly see, that looks like a flame and seems to fly across the sky as though it was fired or it is chasing something?


Come on fudgy, let's hear it. What else could meet all of those criteria that we gain from the verses? Something tells me you'll find a personal oriented excuse not to answer. I know you because you are a Muslim, and all Muslims are always desperately trying anything that they can in any conversation, regardless of plausibility or integrity. How long are you people going to continue to consistently behave this way? When are you going to look at yourselves in the mirror?
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

fudgy wrote:Maersk please instead of talking gibberish you are better off spending your precious energy on something else.
Perhaps when you do so first, eh? Now you have some very damaged excuses that you need to repair or else you have a very big problem on your hands. Perhaps now you've learned why I can't find any comment from Zakir Naik on this issue. Gee, he always seems to have a silly excuse for everything else, so why not this too? But apparently, he doesn't and won't comment on it.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by debunker »

@ ken
Did I? I dont think so. Check her(Umm Khultum) age at that time and dont waste time defending something indefensible. Either you accept the story as whole or you discard as a whole, no medial way here ok. Their disagreement on her maturity obviously means that puberty or first menstruation was not a hindrance to marriage back then. They know that Quran sanctioned it, "Prophet" allowed it and Muslims ( 7th century Arabia) generally practiced it. Taking the Hadiths, Siraa and all Islamic literatures with a "grain of salt" will salvage you partially though.
Dear.. in my response I dismissed it but I also shown you that it can't help YOU but to the contrary it's evdidence against your claim. Sure you want to still pretend that it helps you, but any sane reader will see that this story of yours does NOT serve your goal at all!
OK. Are you an Arab?

Yes. And I can understand classical Arabic too.
If an Arab wife just delivered a baby, her husband will ask her: "Nisa'un Aw Rijaalun"? Boy or Girl? I hope this helps.


Wow! Thanks for the heads up! So an Arab husband asks his wife after delivery if the baby was men or women?!!! Did you just dream up this LIE? No dear, the question is: "Walad Am Bint?" OR "Sabi Am Sabiah", etc, etc.
Remind me if I have committed error somewhere, I will retract with apology. Afterall, I am but a truthseeker.
A truthseeker? Tell me then truthseeker who told you this lie about Arab men asking their wives if they delivered men or women?

Anyway, to stop this nauseating questioning about the meaning of Nisa... how about you tell me what's the Arabic word for women? You do realize that this a pretty important word and every language must have one. (And don't say Niswa... Niswa = a group of Nisa).
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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Wow! Thanks for the heads up! So an Arab husband asks his wife after delivery if the baby was men or women?!!! Did you just dream up this LIE? No dear, the question is: "Walad Am Bint?" OR "Sabi Am Sabiah", etc, etc.
Hello Mr Debunker. I was asking you whether you are an Arab or not and did the Arab said "Nisaaun Aw Rijaalun" when asking about babies? I thought that by putting question mark at the back of my question will make you comprehend that my tone is enquiring tone, not explaining tone.
Did I lie, NO. My question was unclear to you. My apology.
Yes. And I can understand classical Arabic too.
What about the Quraisy dialect? It's imperative to know it for full comprehension of the Quran.
A truthseeker? Tell me then truthseeker who told you this lie about Arab men asking their wives if they delivered men or women?

Anyway, to stop this nauseating questioning about the meaning of Nisa... how about you tell me what's the Arabic word for women? You do realize that this a pretty important word and every language must have one. (And don't say Niswa... Niswa = a group of Nisa).
Mr Debunker, earlier in my post I have provided a few examples in the Quran where the word "Nisa" indicates female in general as substantiated by the story of Pharaoh( in this case, female babies included) but you insisted to the contrary. Arabic word for woman:


امرأة
المرأة
زوجة
خادمة
خليلة
الطبيعة النثوية
مرأة


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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by kenmirzz »

to Mr Debunker

Arabic word for female:

أنثى
نبات مدقي
أنثوي
نسائي
داخلي
غائر

Arabic word for ladies:

سيدة
إمرأة ذات سلطة
زوجة

Arabic word for infant:

رضيع
قاصر
طفل
ولد
طفل صغير

Arabic word for woman:

امرأة
المرأة
زوجة
خادمة
خليلة
الطبيعة النثوية
مرأة

Arabic word for girl:

فتاة
بنت
صبية
عاملة
خادمة
إمرأة متزوجة
محبوبة
معشوقة
ابنة
فتاة الملذات
إمراة فاجرة
آنسة

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by debunker »

@ ken
What about the Quraisy dialect? It's imperative to know it for full comprehension of the Quran
Will you please stop lecturing me? What we refer to today as classical Arabic is mainly Arabic in Quraish dialect.

Oh and by the way, the translations you provided were very laughable.

Arabic word for female:

أنثى --> female
نبات مدقي --> some sort of plant!
أنثوي-->femalish
نسائي --> woman-like
داخلي --> internal!
غائر -->intrusive!

Arabic word for ladies:

سيدة --> lady
إمرأة ذات سلطة--> powerful woman
زوجة --> wife

Arabic word for infant:

رضيع --> infant
قاصر --> minor
طفل --> child
ولد --> boy
طفل صغير --> little child

Arabic word for woman:
woman امرأة
المرأةthe woman
زوجة wife
a servant?! خادمة
خليلة concubine?!
female nature !!! الطبيعة النثوية
مرأة --> woman

Arabic word for girl:

girl فتاة
بنتdaughter/girl
صبية little girl
عاملة female worker?!
خادمة a servant?!
إمرأة متزوجةmarried woman?!!
a lover?!!!محبوبة
معشوقةa lover?!
ابنةdaughter
فتاة الملذات play-girl?!
obscene woman?! إمراة فاجرة
miss! آنسة
Now that I've shown you how ridiculous your translations are, could you please stop with your lectures? Anyway, the Arabic word for woman is Emra'a and for women, it's Nisa'. Now, quit it already.
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kenmirzz
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by kenmirzz »

Will you please stop lecturing me? What we refer to today as classical Arabic is mainly Arabic in Quraish dialect.

Oh and by the way, the translations you provided were very laughable.
Providing details make you laugh? JUst laugh when you heard of marriage among minors in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan. Stop dreaming of a utopian perfect Islam that is the "embodiment of truth".
Now that I've shown you how ridiculous your translations are, could you please stop with your lectures? Anyway, the Arabic word for woman is Emra'a and for women, it's Nisa'. Now, quit it already.
Nisaa means female of any age. Period.

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Aksel Ankersen »

debunker wrote:Now that I've shown you how ridiculous your translations are, could you please stop with your lectures? Anyway, the Arabic word for woman is Emra'a and for women, it's Nisa'. Now, quit it already.
Dear Debunker, what do you think of these verses?
فلما وضعتها قالت رب اني وضعتها انثى والله اعلم بما وضعت وليس الذكر كالانثى

When the baby was born she said, "Lord, it is a female." God knew this. Male and female are not alike.

al-Imran verse 36
Obviously the word untha (انثى) meaning female can refer even to a baby who has just been born, I mention this just for the sake of readers who are not Arabic literate.

Allah commands his believers:

يُوصِيكُمُ اللَّهُ فِى أَوْلَـدِكُمْ لِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الاٍّنْثَيَيْنِ

"This is a commandment from your Lord: Let the male inherit twice as much as the female"

فَإِن كُنَّ نِسَآءً فَوْقَ اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُنَّ ثُلُثَا مَا تَرَكَ

"If there are more than two girls, they will have two-thirds of the legacy."

an-Nisa verse 11
Now, since Nisa in 4:11 was used as a plural form of unthayayni i.e. two females of any age, therefore Nisa does not exclusively mean adult women, because of the equivalence made in 4:11 between Nisa and daughters of any age.
Last edited by Aksel Ankersen on Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by debunker »

Hello Aksel

Untha means female which is indeed a general term that can be used to refer to any age.

And no, the use of Nisa (women) in 4:11 does not mean that Nisa is a general term that can refer to girls as well... However, the verse still applies to girls.

Anyway, I will PRETEND, for the sake of argument, that Nisa does not exclusively mean women. Now let's go back to 65:4. The verse said, those who did not mentruate. Period. There are many reasons for women not to menstruate (miss their periods) other than pregnancy... now why do you have to presume that the ONLY reason for a "female" not to menstruate is when she's too young? are you saying that women of that time didn't know that women can miss their periods?

PS. Check out 2:222, 3:61 and 4:1 (just for you to see that Nisa means women, and in any case, you go to college, ask an Arabic language expert and see what they have to say about Nisa).
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Aksel Ankersen »

debunker wrote:Hello Aksel

Untha means female which is indeed a general term that can be used to refer to any age.

And no, the use of Nisa (women) in 4:11 does not mean that Nisa is a general term that can refer to girls as well... However, the verse still applies to girls.
Hello debunker.

In calculating the division of inheritance I am assuming every living female descendant of the deceased will be included, regardless of age and maturity, as such the word Nisa in 4:11 was used to indicate females of any age

I'm well aware that in modern Arabic Nisa only means adult women, but nomenclature is hardly constant over centuries; for instance the Latin word femina means woman rather than female of any age as in modern English.

debunker wrote:Anyway, I will PRETEND, for the sake of argument, that Nisa does not exclusively mean women. Now let's go back to 65:4. The verse said, those who did not mentruate. Period. There are many reasons for women not to menstruate (miss their periods) other than pregnancy... now why do you have to presume that the ONLY reason for a "female" not to menstruate is when she's too young? are you saying that women of that time didn't know that women can miss their periods?
And yet the phrase al-laa-ee Lam Yahidna uses the form of Arabic negation which specifically cancels the past, that is the word Lam rather than for instance Laa (لا - present tense), Laysa (ليس - present tense), Maa (مَاْ - all purpose negation, past or present) or In (إِنْ - all purpose negation, past or present) all of which would be viable alternatives if the point of the verse was that the women in question were experiencing amenorrhea i.e. a current suspension of their menstrual cycle. The suspension of their menstrual cycle at any time in the past would not be relevant to determining if they are pregnant for the purposes of iddah, therefore I conclude that al-laa-ee Lam Yahidna are those who have not yet had their first menstrual courses.
debunker wrote:PS. Check out 2:222, 3:61 and 4:1 (just for you to see that Nisa means women, and in any case, you go to college, ask an Arabic language expert and see what they have to say about Nisa).
I accept Nisa in MSA only means adult women. And I'm sorry, but I can't see how those verses prove Nisa in Koran exclusively means adult women.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by AhmedBahgat »

debunker wrote:Now that I've shown you how ridiculous your translations are, could you please stop with your lectures? Anyway, the Arabic word for woman is Emra'a and for women, it's Nisa'. Now, quit it already.

Indeed he is a clear cut ignornat clown

anyway there is another Arabic word for women which I believe is used also by the Quran, Niswah

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by AhmedBahgat »

debunker wrote:Hello Aksel

Untha means female which is indeed a general term that can be used to refer to any age.

And no, the use of Nisa (women) in 4:11 does not mean that Nisa is a general term that can refer to girls as well... However, the verse still applies to girls.
That's right, pal

However I believe that verse 4:11 inetentionally used the word Nisaa because the fact that imature men or women are not allowed to handle their inheritance, only after they mature, they will be able to take hold of their money that was kept by an adult

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by AhmedBahgat »

Aksel Ankersen wrote:In calculating the division of inheritance I am assuming every living female descendant of the deceased will be included, regardless of age and maturity, as such the word Nisa in 4:11 was used to indicate females of any age
That's right, all children must be inculuded, however a young child who has not reached puberity CANOT HADNDLE their money and they are also called Yatama in that case, only adults who can handle their own money

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by sum »

Hello Debunker and AhmedBahgat

Do you think that Allah could have made his guidance on this matter much clearer and so avoid all doubt as to what he means?

sum

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