65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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debunker
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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@ cassie
I think you're misreading the verse. Read it again. Some people asked Muhamamd about Nisa - he went on to talk about THEM (feminine) and then said, os you also have to be kind to orphans - without specifying who those orphans were. They were both males and females. But the context was to clarify what was answered about nisa
yeah I remember you had a big list of what Nisa means in the other post... that was pretty impressive!
So? It beggars belief that Pharaoh would kill boys and spare the adult women. And not mention the pre-adult girls. Both the story - which is well-known, and the contast between the boys and nisa - show that the nisa must include pre-adult girls.
why? I could easily understand it this way: they killed your sons and spared your women... your sons = your boys, your women = your wives (the mothers of the boys)... to emphasize that they didn't kill any pregnant woman for example... yes, the verse is ambiguous but Nisa does NOT mean anything but women!
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Cassie
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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debunker wrote:@ cassie
I think you're misreading the verse. Read it again. Some people asked Muhamamd about Nisa - he went on to talk about THEM (feminine) and then said, os you also have to be kind to orphans - without specifying who those orphans were. They were both males and females. But the context was to clarify what was answered about nisa
yeah I remember you had a big list of what Nisa means in the other post... that was pretty impressive!
It is not my list but Muhammad's. He answered what was meant by nisa in 4;127.
debunker wrote:
So? It beggars belief that Pharaoh would kill boys and spare the adult women. And not mention the pre-adult girls. Both the story - which is well-known, and the contast between the boys and nisa - show that the nisa must include pre-adult girls.
why? I could easily understand it this way: they killed your sons and spared your women... your sons = your boys, your women = your wives (the mothers of the boys)... to emphasize that they didn't kill any pregnant woman for example... yes, the verse is ambiguous but Nisa does NOT mean anything but women!
There are three flaws with this:

1. this doesn't match the actual story about Pharaoh killing boys only and leaving the girls. Pharaoh's command was to kill only the male children and spare the female children.

2. the contrast between the boys and nisa makes it clear that nisa must mean the opposite of boys - i.e. girls of the same age.

3. the ambiguity means you're wrong.

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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ok cassie, you must be right... after all I'm still chasing after a PhD and you ALREADY have two!
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Cassie »

debunker wrote:ok cassie, you must be right... after all I'm still chasing after a PhD and you ALREADY have two!
It's quite easy to get PhDs - almost everyone I know has one.

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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But *TWO* PhDs is VERY impressive!!! Lucky you! Are you planning on getting a third one?
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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debunker wrote:But *TWO* PhDs is VERY impressive!!! Lucky you! Are you planning on getting a third one?
No. I'm past doing that. My next goal is to achieve a DSc. PhDs are what we called "Junior doctorates". I only had two because I was undecided as to my career - I started young. My second was an adjunct which I had to have to work in the field of my choice. Some PhDs are easier to get than others - like in Mathematics, for example. Brilliant mathematicians can write a doctorate (if they manage to find a solution to an unsolved theorem) in months. I have a mathematician friend who wrote his in 9 months, but had to wait for almost 3 years to get his PhD because that's the University regulations.

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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WOW! So you're still getting a THIRD (bigger & tougher) doctorate?!!! :surprised: I must admit, I feel jealous!

By the way, I was interviewed once for my US visa by someone who had TWO PhDs... I was very impressed.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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debunker wrote:WOW! So you're still getting a THIRD (bigger & tougher) doctorate?!!! :surprised: I must admit, I feel jealous!
In UK and related countries, it is not awarded for submitting a thesis like a PhD, but a lifetime achievement award by a University. In the US, it may be equivalent to a PhD.

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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lifetime achievement award
That makes me even more green with jealousy!
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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debunker wrote:
lifetime achievement award
That makes me even more green with jealousy!
Not many people get that - it's very rare, but it's certainly a goal. One must have goals in life. In the UK (after the Cambridge model), it's like an honorary doctorate, except it's not honorary but real. You have to achieve a lot over a substantial period to even get considered. You don't have to do anything for it, except your job.

In the US, it is equivalent (or maybe a little higher) to a PhD. It is also called a ScD. But in most US universities, its equivalent. Very confusing.

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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please cassie stop it! I already feel defeated by the fact that you have 2 PhDs, so please stop talking about this special award for life achievment thing...
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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debunker wrote:please cassie stop it! I already feel defeated by the fact that you have 2 PhDs, so please stop talking about this special award for life achievment thing...
Look, it's just an award like any other. The fact is I probably won't get it. I only know two people who've got that. It's just a goal.

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by fudgy »

charleslemartel wrote: Fudgy, let us change the "shooting stars" to meteors or meteorites if you wish. They couldn't be fired at anything, let alone Jinns, because firing implies something stationary thrown/hurled/propelled suddenly towards some target. We know that meteorites are not stationary before they enter in to the earth's atmosphere; they keep revolving around the sun at various speeds. Because of the difference in their speeds compared to that of the earth, they enter in to the earth's atmosphere; faster ones catch up with earth and the slower ones are caught up by the earth. Then they are pulled in by the earth's gravity and we see them tracing a fiery trail.

Secondly, if you claim that their movement towards the earth's surface is due to their being fired towards the jinns who flee towards the earth's surface, it would imply the following:

1. Allah resides within the earth's atmosphere, because it is only when these already moving meteorites enter the atmosphere, they get pulled in by the earth's gravity and hence change their original course.

2. As a corollary to the point 1 above, it would appear that Allah thought planets, stars (including the sun) and other heavenly bodies were contained within the earth's atmosphere.

3. Jinns are earth bound entities and they reside on earth's surface or somewhere below it. They feel they would be safer on the earth's surface, so they flee towards it.
lol that's it? First of all Charles Quran is not specifically talking about Meteroids. Secondly, things that work like a missile in the cosmos are not stationary at all they are moving since everything in space moves. This is God we are talking about He can fire stuff that are already moving. Are you picturing some guy holding a gun and firing a bullet? lol.

At any rate, what the Quran is saying is that Allah has beautified the cosmos with luminous entities, and although these entities are beautiful in nature some of them are just as deadly. There is nothing scientifically absurd about it. It is saying that some of the Jinns are being deterred/pursued with a Shihaab i.e. a blaze. This could be referring to a magnetar shooting out gamma rays, God firing blazars, and so many other weird stuff in cosmos to deter the Jinns. Again things need not be stationary for God to fire them.

Although, I do not treat the Quran to be scientific, what deemed to be absurd turning out to be quite accurate statement by the Quran.

Nabil,

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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@Debunker Cassie has one in computer and the other in electrical. She is now working on physics. And all of these phds are walk in the park for her :D . You should be jealous!

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by charleslemartel »

fudgy wrote: lol that's it? First of all Charles Quran is not specifically talking about Meteroids.
What it is talking about then?
Secondly, things that work like a missile in the cosmos are not stationary at all they are moving since everything in space moves. This is God we are talking about He can fire stuff that are already moving. Are you picturing some guy holding a gun and firing a bullet? lol.
Everything moving in space is scientific knowledge. Quran does not say that at all. It says that stars are created for three purposes: for navigation, for shooting Jinns and for adorning the sky; a childish knowledge by modern standards. So was Quran talking of stars or planets as missiles? That would be still funnier :lol:
At any rate, what the Quran is saying is that Allah has beautified the cosmos with luminous entities, and although these entities are beautiful in nature some of them are just as deadly. There is nothing scientifically absurd about it.
Stars or planets being deadly as in a bullet/missile being fired? :lol:
It is saying that some of the Jinns are being deterred/pursued with a Shihaab i.e. a blaze. This could be referring to a magnetar shooting out gamma rays, God firing blazars, and so many other weird stuff in cosmos to deter the Jinns. Again things need not be stationary for God to fire them.

Although, I do not treat the Quran to be scientific, what deemed to be absurd turning out to be quite accurate statement by the Quran.
A quite accurate statement with "could be"? Such a statement is speculation, and it is never accurate. Neither of the things you tried can be thought of as "lamps" or used for navigation so your attempt did not succeed.

By the way, why wouldn't you treat the Quran to be scientific if it contains no error while talking of the subjects science studies and explains?
Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

fudgy wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
fudgy wrote:Debunker, not every scholar. Asad doesn't think it refers to immature girls. Women who do not have any courses does not mean little girls in the swing.
Asad also lies in 67:5 and tries to change missiles to "futile guesses" to hide the embarrassment of that verse. Now THAT'S a blatant liar for you.
Off topic here. I do not treat the Quran as a scientific nor a historical book. But what exactly is the embarrassment part again?
It's not off topic, I am attacking the character of the person you are referencing. How do you ignore the fact that this guy is so willing to blatantly lie and change the meaning of verses? Why would you cite someone who I can show you blaatantly lies. Quit ignoring this glaring lie fudgy, it's right in front of you. Do you really think all of the old translators who translated it as missiles or projectiles were wrong and suddenly this guy comes along after seeing the embarrassment and knowing enough to realize how embarrassing it is changed it to it's correct meaning? Oh bull, even you can't be stupid enough to believe that. This is so typical of Muslims. Every time their book gets caught being wrong, they merely change the meaning to MAKE it fit. Fudgy, how do you reconcile these clear lies in your mind? How?

As far as the embarrassing part, read the other translators and tell me if shooting stars are fired at anything. Do you know anything about meteors? There's a very good reason why Asad had to blatantly change the entire meaning. He knew the embarrassment. All one normally has to do is just look at it. Do you mean you can't see it? Never mind, you're too far gone and a waste of time.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

fudgy wrote:
charleslemartel wrote: Fudgy, let us change the "shooting stars" to meteors or meteorites if you wish. They couldn't be fired at anything, let alone Jinns, because firing implies something stationary thrown/hurled/propelled suddenly towards some target. We know that meteorites are not stationary before they enter in to the earth's atmosphere; they keep revolving around the sun at various speeds. Because of the difference in their speeds compared to that of the earth, they enter in to the earth's atmosphere; faster ones catch up with earth and the slower ones are caught up by the earth. Then they are pulled in by the earth's gravity and we see them tracing a fiery trail.

Secondly, if you claim that their movement towards the earth's surface is due to their being fired towards the jinns who flee towards the earth's surface, it would imply the following:

1. Allah resides within the earth's atmosphere, because it is only when these already moving meteorites enter the atmosphere, they get pulled in by the earth's gravity and hence change their original course.

2. As a corollary to the point 1 above, it would appear that Allah thought planets, stars (including the sun) and other heavenly bodies were contained within the earth's atmosphere.

3. Jinns are earth bound entities and they reside on earth's surface or somewhere below it. They feel they would be safer on the earth's surface, so they flee towards it.
lol that's it? First of all Charles Quran is not specifically talking about Meteroids. Secondly, things that work like a missile in the cosmos are not stationary at all they are moving since everything in space moves. This is God we are talking about He can fire stuff that are already moving. Are you picturing some guy holding a gun and firing a bullet? lol.

At any rate, what the Quran is saying is that Allah has beautified the cosmos with luminous entities, and although these entities are beautiful in nature some of them are just as deadly. There is nothing scientifically absurd about it. It is saying that some of the Jinns are being deterred/pursued with a Shihaab i.e. a blaze. This could be referring to a magnetar shooting out gamma rays, God firing blazars, and so many other weird stuff in cosmos to deter the Jinns. Again things need not be stationary for God to fire them.

Although, I do not treat the Quran to be scientific, what deemed to be absurd turning out to be quite accurate statement by the Quran.

Nabil,
OK, time to expose the liar

15:16 (Y. Ali) It is We Who have set out the zodiacal signs in the heavens, and made them fair-seeming to (all) beholders;
It's talking about the stars, not meteors because meteors have nothing to do with the zodiacal signs, right? Right.

15:17 (Y. Ali) And (moreover) We have guarded them from every evil spirit accursed:
The Stars are gaurded from evil spirits going to the lower heavens to evesdrop

15:18 (Y. Ali) But any that gains a hearing by stealth, is pursued by a flaming fire, bright (to see)
So the stars are protected by meteors? How so? Stars are millions of miles away. But, of course, nobody knew that in the 7th century and neither did Allah, apparently :lol: Also, do meteors "pursue" or "follow" anything? Of course not, it just looked like they flew across the sky chasing something. But we all no today, that this idea is radically wrong, although fully expected from a 7th century man.

And, of course, as the Quran always does, it repeats the same concept in other places

37:6 (Y. Ali) We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars,-
That's not meteors, it's stars, just like in 15:16. The proof is that it mentions the zodiacal signs in 15:16, so there's no escaping this, we KNOW what it's referring to.

37:7 (Y. Ali) (For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits,
Just like in 15:17. Why do the stars need to be gaurded, or why would we even say that they themselves guard? And you don't think this is embarrassing? You must be blind.

37:8 (Y. Ali) (So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side,
So the jinn try to go to the region of the stars and evesdrop on heaven's conversations, never realizing how far the stars are from each other when this little fairy tale was created.

37:9 (Y. Ali) Repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty,
Stars or even meteors protects one from reaching the region of the stars? Come on fudgy, even you can't be this oblivious.

37:10 (Y. Ali) Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness.
Do meteors "pursue" anything, even invisible jinn? Even a space shuttle?

67:5 (Y. Ali) And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
See how it says "adorned". We can use any word we want like decorate etc...but the meaning is still the same. And in order for something to be an adornment, it means it's always there are there for a long period of time so that it can adorn. But the adornment from meteors lasts for a mere second or two, so he's talking about the stars in the sky and maybe meteors as well and simply associating both as the same thing or possibly saying that the stars shoot meteors.

72:8 (Y. Ali) 'And we pried into the secrets of heaven; but we found it filled with stern guards and flaming fires.
72:9 (Y. Ali) 'We used, indeed, to sit there in (hidden) stations, to (steal) a hearing; but any who listen now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush.
In ambush? Huh? Meteors ambush? Stars ambush?

Fudgy, what does it take? I guess it takes nothing because you are unreachable. If Allah has seled my heart, then surely he has sealed your mind.

And about your attempted lie and gamma rays and the like, I'll debunk that it two seconds. 15:18 says these flames are bright to see. Are gamma rays bright for us to see? No. Are meteors or even stars? Yes. Case closed. Totaly busted and lie rejected, and you deserve it for even attempting it, but it seems like you'll attempt anything as long as it allows you to hold on to your precious beliefs.

Now you can clearly see why Asad went out of his way to lie about these verses. He knew the problem as do others such as even Zakir Naik. The curious problem is that mister answer man Naik with all of the answers won't comment on this issue. Isn't that curious? It sure is.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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to Mr Debunker

Thanks for your suggestion about having my signature. I am more comfortable with writing the sentence everytime in order to remind myself about the brotherhood of humanity per se, without exception.

Coming back to our discussion, Suraa 65:4 talked about the "Iddah" period to be observed after divorce. We see in Suraa 33:49: O ye who believe! If ye wed believing women and divorce them before ye have touched them, then there is no period that ye should reckon. But content them and release them handsomely.

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo itha nakahtumu almuminati thumma tallaqtumoohunna min qabli an tamassoohunna fama lakum AAalayhinna min AAiddatin taAAtaddoonaha famattiAAoohunna wasarrihoohunna sarahan jameelan


These verses are complementing each other and instruct the divorced wife not to observe "Iddah" if she gets the separated prior to having sexual intercourse. Thus, we conclude that Suraa 65:4 is elaborating about "Iddah" after intercourse has occurred between two parties.

Now, let's scrutinize the Suraa 65:4, the verse "Yaisna mina al-maheedhi" means "those women who desperate of menses" implying those women who have reached puberty but still do not menstruate. It can refer to those women who have reached menopause. The verse "“Wallaee Lam yahidhna" in Arabic refer to "those who have not menstruated yet”. Since the first case has been covered in "Yaisna mina al-maheedhi", it is obvious that the second case is for those immature girls that already married and consummated the marriage, then get divorced.

As for your defence on the word "Nisa" that exclusively refer to women without compromy, it's a lame excuse. "Nisa" refers to women of all ages which may incluse either infant or adult women. Pharaoh's order was clear, that was to slay the male infant and spare the female one. Logically speaking, why refer to the male infant and then jump to female adult in an instant? The answer none other than bigotry to cover up facts.

Here's another tidbit for you to witness the injunction of Quran in application: 'Umar asked 'Ali for the hand of his daughter, Umm Kulthum in marriage. 'Ali replied that she has not yet attained the age (of maturity). 'Umar replied, 'By Allah, this is not true. You do not want her to marry me. If she is underage, send her to me'. Thus 'Ali gave his daughter Umm Kulthum a dress and asked her to go to 'Umar and tell him that her father wants to know what this dress is for. When she came to Umar and gave him the message, he grabbed her hand and forcibly pulled her towards him. 'Umm Kulthum asked him to leave her hand, which Umar did and said, 'You are a very mannered lady with great morals. Go and tell your father that you are very pretty and you are not what he said of you'. With that 'Ali married Umm Kulthum to 'Umar." [In Tarikh Khamees, Volume 2, p. 384 ('Dhikr Umm Kalthum') and Zakhair Al-Aqba, p. 168]

You can just deny the story but historically speaking, marriage among minors were never a prohibited action in 7th century Arabia. It's democratically( due to accepted by majority) held to be normal at that time.

Just my two cents though.

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by fudgy »

MBL you are simply wasting your time. The term "lamp" suggest something that is gaseous/plasmic of nature and are capable of giving off radiation. Meteroids are solid objects made of irons. Lamp and meteroids doesn't go hand in hand. If the translators thinks it's talking about a meteroid then it is their problem. What I said makes hell lot more sense. A magnetar is a neutron star that shoots of radiation such as Gamma Rays, which does indeed work like a missile and fits description of a lamp much better than does a meteroid. Now, I am not claiming that Quran is talking about magnetars or blazars, but Allah fires something to that effect to deter the Jinns. And also please spare me your ignorance that Allah could not fire something that is already moving as a missile. Yeah how in the world can Allah fire something as a missile that is already moving lol. I am done with this very ignorance topic.

Nabil,

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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@ ken
Now, let's scrutinize the Suraa 65:4, the verse "Yaisna mina al-maheedhi" means "those women who desperate of menses" implying those women who have reached puberty but still do not menstruate. It can refer to those women who have reached menopause.
:lol:
Here's another tidbit for you to witness the injunction of Quran in application: 'Umar asked 'Ali for the hand of his daughter, Umm Kulthum in marriage. 'Ali replied that she has not yet attained the age (of maturity). 'Umar replied, 'By Allah, this is not true. You do not want her to marry me. If she is underage, send her to me'. Thus 'Ali gave his daughter Umm Kulthum a dress and asked her to go to 'Umar and tell him that her father wants to know what this dress is for. When she came to Umar and gave him the message, he grabbed her hand and forcibly pulled her towards him. 'Umm Kulthum asked him to leave her hand, which Umar did and said, 'You are a very mannered lady with great morals. Go and tell your father that you are very pretty and you are not what he said of you'. With that 'Ali married Umm Kulthum to 'Umar." [In Tarikh Khamees, Volume 2, p. 384 ('Dhikr Umm Kalthum') and Zakhair Al-Aqba, p. 168]

You can just deny the story but historically speaking, marriage among minors were never a prohibited action in 7th century Arabia. It's democratically( due to accepted by majority) held to be normal at that time.
My my, you just shot yourself in the foot. Ali said NO! because he thought his daughter was NOT mature yet and Omar said yes she was but Ali didn't want to marry her off to him... so far what does that mean? Hmm? Both men were aware that immature girls are not to be married.

Now, the rest of this story is simply laughable: So Ali agrees to send his daughter to the home of a man to check her up, huh? Ok, I'll pretend that this is possible but how did the mariage eventually take place? Umar convinced her to tell her father that she's not like what her father claimed... meaning that she's not immature... Of course the whole thing is an obvious silly lie, but it does indicate that at least Umar/Ali were convinced that those who didn't attain the age of maturity can't be married.
As for your defence on the word "Nisa" that exclusively refer to women without compromy, it's a lame excuse. "Nisa" refers to women of all ages which may incluse either infant or adult women.
Stop wasting my time kid. Nisa can only mean women. Period.
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