65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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Aksel Ankersen
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Aksel Ankersen »

debunker wrote:@ Aksel,

Actually she did say Nisa can mean "infants" among other things which is quite laughable.

And yes when an orphan girl becomes a woman, she becomes an orphan woman...
Sorry, I don't get it, why does verse say test the Yatama until they reach marriageable age if some of them are already women?

Shouldn't it be something like "test the Atfal from among the Yatama until they reach marriageable age"?
Last edited by Aksel Ankersen on Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by debunker »

@ Aksel

could you explain more.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Aksel Ankersen »

If the verse 4:127 is supposed to mean "female children from among the orphans", and orphaned adult women are included as orphans, shouldn't it be something like this?

أطفال من اليتامى

4:6 suggests to me that the Yatama in general are children.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by kenmirzz »

Referring to Debunker, the word "Nisa" can indicate even a female babies and do not exclusively meant "woman". Read this Quranic verses:

And [remember the time] when we saved you from Pharaoh's people, who afflicted you with cruel suffering, slaughtering your sons and sparing [only] your women - which was an awesome trial from your Sustainer;
(Waith najjaynakum min ali firawna yasoomoonakum sooa alAAathabi yuthabbihoona abnaakum wayastahyoona Nisaakum wafee thalikum balaon min rabbikum AAatheemun) [Quran. 2:49]


Said the chiefs of Pharaoh's people: "Wilt thou leave Moses and his people, to spread mischief in the land, and to abandon thee and thy gods?" He said: "Their male children will we slay; (only) their females will we save alive; and we have over them (power) irresistible."
(Waqala almalao min qawmi firawna atatharu moosa waqawmahu liyufsidoo fee alardi wayatharaka waalihataka qala sanuqattilu abnaahum wanastahyee Nisaahum wainna fawqahum qahiroona) [Quran 7:127]


And remember we rescued you from Pharaoh's people, who afflicted you with the worst of penalties, who slew your male children and saved alive your females: in that was a momentous trial from your Lord.
(Waith anjaynakum min ali firawna yasoomoonakum sooa alAAathabi yuqattiloona abnaakum wayastahyoona Nisaakum wafee thalikum balaon min rabbikum AAatheemun) [Quran 7: 141]


Remember! Moses said to his people: "Call to mind the favour of Allah to you when He delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: they set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons, and let your females live: therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.
(Waith qala moosa liqawmihi othkuroo niAAmata Allahi AAalaykum ith anjakum min ali firawna yasoomoonakum sooa alAAathabi wayuthabbihoona abnaakum wayastahyoona Nisaakum wafee thalikum balaon min rabbikum AAatheemun) [Quran 14:6]


And when he brought them the Truth from Our presence, they said: Slay the sons of those who believe with him, and spare their females. But the plot of disbelievers is in naught but error.
(Falamma jaahum bialhaqqi min AAindina qaloo oqtuloo abnaa allatheena amanoo maAAahu waistahyoo Nisaahum wama kaydu alkafireena illa fee dalalin) [Quran 40:25]


Humanity is but one family. :)

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Aksel Ankersen »

Thanks for that Kenmirzz, I'd forgetten about that example; Ibnaahum is contrasted with Nisaahum, obviously their male vs. their female children.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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I guess you have a problem with the expression "orphan women".

In Arabic, an orphan *girl* keeps the title of orphan even when she reaches womanhood as long as she's not married yet. In fact, this is still the case even today in some Arabic cultures. When my father died, my youngest two sisters (who were both above 18) were still referred to as orphans in my culture because they weren't married yet.

Anyway, check this dictionary:
يقال للمرأة يَتيمةٌ لا يزول عنها اسمُ اليُتْمِ أَبداً؛ وأَنشدوا: وينْكِح الأَرامِل اليَتامى وقال أَبو عبيدة: تُدْعى يتيمةً ما لم تَتزوج، فإِذا تَزوَّجت زال عنها اسمُ اليُتْم؛
http://www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;يتيم
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by debunker »

@ ken

first off "Abna" means sons. but in the context of the verse, it means specifically male new-borns. And they spared the women.

Please stop telling me that Nisa can mean anything other than women.

Finally, I see that you have no signature... how about you make your little sentence (humanity is but one family :) ) your signature? just a friendly suggestion.

EDIT:

Besides, where did you get this goofy translation from? I can't believe that I'm still doing this, but see these 3 popular translations:
002.049
YUSUFALI: And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.
PICKTHAL: And (remember) when We did deliver you from Pharaoh's folk, who were afflicting you with dreadful torment, slaying your sons and sparing your women: that was a tremendous trial from your Lord.
SHAKIR: And when We delivered you from Firon's people, who subjected you to severe torment, killing your sons and sparing your women, and in this there was a great trial from your Lord.
007.127
YUSUFALI: Said the chiefs of Pharaoh's people: "Wilt thou leave Moses and his people, to spread mischief in the land, and to abandon thee and thy gods?" He said: "Their male children will we slay; (only) their females will we save alive; and we have over them (power) irresistible."
PICKTHAL: The chiefs of Pharaoh's people said: (O King), wilt thou suffer Moses and his people to make mischief in the land, and flout thee and thy gods? He said: We will slay their sons and spare their women, for lo! we are in power over them.
SHAKIR: And the chiefs of Firon's people said: Do you leave Musa and his people to make mischief in the land and to forsake you and your gods? He said: We will slay their sons and spare their women, and surely we are masters over them.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Aksel Ankersen »

debunker wrote:I guess you have a problem with the expression "orphan women".

In Arabic, an orphan *girl* keeps the title of orphan even when she reaches womanhood as long as she's not married yet. In fact, this is still the case even today in some Arabic cultures. When my father died, my youngest two sisters (who were both above 18) were still referred to as orphans in my culture because they weren't married yet.

Anyway, check this dictionary:
يقال للمرأة يَتيمةٌ لا يزول عنها اسمُ اليُتْمِ أَبداً؛ وأَنشدوا: وينْكِح الأَرامِل اليَتامى وقال أَبو عبيدة: تُدْعى يتيمةً ما لم تَتزوج، فإِذا تَزوَّجت زال عنها اسمُ اليُتْم؛
http://www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;يتيم
Sorry to hear your father died.

WordReference.com dictionary appears to disagree about Yatim.

Anyway the words of the Koran don't mean exactly the same thing in MSA, I would appreciate if we could see a Koran verse where Yatama = adults.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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that's an English Arabic dictionary link... you won't find all the details.

Besides, NO, NOT all adults whose fathers are dead can be called Yatama. ONLY if the adult is unmarried + woman, they can still be referred to as yatama... men (whether married or not) are never called yatama in Arabic... only unmarried women can still be referred to as yatama in the Arabic language/culture.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Aksel Ankersen »

Then I will concede Yatama. Kenmirzz's example was better, in truth.
debunker wrote:Besides, where did you get this goofy translation from?
Please look again at al-Baqara 49, some competent translators did understand it as female children rather than women; Rodwell, Dawood, Khalifa, Malik, Sale...
Spoiler! :
JM Rodwell: And remember when we rescued you from the people of Pharaoh, who had laid on you a cruel chastisement. They slew your male children, and let only your females live: and in this was a great trial from your Lord:

NJ Dawood: Remember how we delivered you from Pharaoh's people, who oppressed you cruelly, slaying your sons and sparing only your daughters. Surely that was a great trial by your Lord.

Rashad Khalifa: Recall that we saved you from Pharaoh's people who inflicted upon you the worst persecution, slaying your sons and sparing your daughters. That was an exacting test from your Lord.

Muhammad Malik: Remember how We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: they had subjected you to severe torment, killing your sons and sparing your daughters; you were facing a tremendous trial from your Lord

George Sale: Remember when we delivered you from the people of Pharaoh, who grievously oppressed you, they slew your male children, and let your females live: Therein was a great trial from your Lord.
Besides which, there is a logical problem if Nisa is taken to mean women exclusively: Pharaoh's order should simply have been recounted as "slay their sons". However, in the context of 2:49, Nisa is contrasted with Abna, it follows that since one translates to "sons" the other translates to "daughters".
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by debunker »

I don't think there is a logical problem in the verse. They spared the women means they never targeted the women for killing. Women were not the problem, the problem was when boys become men and the prophecy of an Israelite man threatening the Pharoah might become a reality.

Anyway, logical problem or not, Nisa can ONLY mean women. Period.

Edit:
Check 2:222 maybe you will be convinced that Nisa means women.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Aksel Ankersen »

debunker wrote:Anyway, logical problem or not, Nisa can ONLY mean women. Period.
If you say so.

The book recounts the Pharaoh giving an order to slay and an exception to spare. In the matter of exceptions, it is logical to contrast men with women, or to contrast male children with female children.

It's illogical for Pharaoh to give an exception which contrasts adult women with male children, as they have no common ground allowing someone to confuse the two: If Pharaoh ordered the killing of infants there would be no point in him excepting adult women, as no one would think the order applied to them.

Also, this story is in the Bible (Exodus 1:15-18), where clearly the order from Pharaoh is to slay male children and spare female children.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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maybe the women referred to in the verse is their mothers? or pregnant women? or women in general? I really don't care... Nisa strictly means women. Period.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Cassie »

debunker wrote:I don't think there is a logical problem in the verse. They spared the women means they never targeted the women for killing. Women were not the problem, the problem was when boys become men and the prophecy of an Israelite man threatening the Pharoah might become a reality.

Anyway, logical problem or not, Nisa can ONLY mean women. Period.

Edit:
Check 2:222 maybe you will be convinced that Nisa means women.
Actually, there is a verse where people asked Muhammad about the nisa - and he went on to talk about orphans and infants. So much for 2-222.

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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fudgy wrote:
charleslemartel wrote: The embarrassing part here is the obvious ignorance of Allah in the matters of the cosmos; now the humans know far better than Allah of Quran that shooting stars (meteors) are NOT the missiles to fire at some jinns :lol:

It is immaterial how YOU choose to treat Quran. If it claims to be the word of God, it must not contain even a single error, scientific, historic or on any subject. A single error is enough to prove that it cannot be from the creator God. That Muslims do not accept this simple fact is another matter.
I do not get you Charles, can you clarify your positions again. Where exactly do you get a shooting star from? And why couldn't they be fired at Jinns?
Fudgy, let us change the "shooting stars" to meteors or meteorites if you wish. They couldn't be fired at anything, let alone Jinns, because firing implies something stationary thrown/hurled/propelled suddenly towards some target. We know that meteorites are not stationary before they enter in to the earth's atmosphere; they keep revolving around the sun at various speeds. Because of the difference in their speeds compared to that of the earth, they enter in to the earth's atmosphere; faster ones catch up with earth and the slower ones are caught up by the earth. Then they are pulled in by the earth's gravity and we see them tracing a fiery trail.

Secondly, if you claim that their movement towards the earth's surface is due to their being fired towards the jinns who flee towards the earth's surface, it would imply the following:

1. Allah resides within the earth's atmosphere, because it is only when these already moving meteorites enter the atmosphere, they get pulled in by the earth's gravity and hence change their original course.

2. As a corollary to the point 1 above, it would appear that Allah thought planets, stars (including the sun) and other heavenly bodies were contained within the earth's atmosphere.

3. Jinns are earth bound entities and they reside on earth's surface or somewhere below it. They feel they would be safer on the earth's surface, so they flee towards it.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by debunker »

@ cassie

Since you have 2 PhDs, I'm going to presume that you work at a university... why don't you consult an Arabic expert in your university and ask them if Nisa can EVER mean anything other than women.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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debunker wrote:@ cassie

Since you have 2 PhDs, I'm going to presume that you work at a university... why don't you consult an Arabic expert in your university and ask them if Nisa can EVER mean anything other than women.
I am asking the Quran. 4-127 makes it very clear that when Muslims ask Muhammad about Nisa - he went to refer to little girls.

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Cassie »

debunker wrote:@ ken

first off "Abna" means sons. but in the context of the verse, it means specifically male new-borns. And they spared the women.

Please stop telling me that Nisa can mean anything other than women.

Finally, I see that you have no signature... how about you make your little sentence (humanity is but one family :) ) your signature? just a friendly suggestion.

EDIT:

Besides, where did you get this goofy translation from? I can't believe that I'm still doing this, but see these 3 popular translations:
002.049
YUSUFALI: And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.
PICKTHAL: And (remember) when We did deliver you from Pharaoh's folk, who were afflicting you with dreadful torment, slaying your sons and sparing your women: that was a tremendous trial from your Lord.
SHAKIR: And when We delivered you from Firon's people, who subjected you to severe torment, killing your sons and sparing your women, and in this there was a great trial from your Lord.
007.127
YUSUFALI: Said the chiefs of Pharaoh's people: "Wilt thou leave Moses and his people, to spread mischief in the land, and to abandon thee and thy gods?" He said: "Their male children will we slay; (only) their females will we save alive; and we have over them (power) irresistible."
PICKTHAL: The chiefs of Pharaoh's people said: (O King), wilt thou suffer Moses and his people to make mischief in the land, and flout thee and thy gods? He said: We will slay their sons and spare their women, for lo! we are in power over them.
SHAKIR: And the chiefs of Firon's people said: Do you leave Musa and his people to make mischief in the land and to forsake you and your gods? He said: We will slay their sons and spare their women, and surely we are masters over them.
The story is well known - Pharaoh was to kill the boys and spare the girls (children), not the women. Therefore, you're guilty of a circular argument. You, like these translators, presume nisa must mean only women. But that cannot be true from what we know of this story. Hence, nisa must mean both adult and pre-adult females.

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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@ cassie
I am asking the Quran. 4-127 makes it very clear that when Muslims ask Muhammad about Nisa - he went to refer to little girls.
And don't forget BOYS too.
The story is well known - Pharaoh was to kill the boys and spare the girls (children), not the women. Therefore, you're guilty of a circular argument. You, like these translators, presume nisa must mean only women. But that cannot be true from what we know of this story. Hence, nisa must mean both adult and pre-adult females.
Another gem by cassie... and since when the Quran ever matched the Biblical stories word for word? In fact, if I'm not mistaken ALL the stories in the Quran are usually *fundamentally* different from those in the Bible.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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debunker wrote:@ cassie
I am asking the Quran. 4-127 makes it very clear that when Muslims ask Muhammad about Nisa - he went to refer to little girls.
And don't forget BOYS too.
I think you're misreading the verse. Read it again. Some people asked Muhamamd about Nisa - he went on to talk about THEM (feminine) and then said, os you also have to be kind to orphans - without specifying who those orphans were. They were both males and females. But the context was to clarify what was answered about nisa.

debunker wrote:
The story is well known - Pharaoh was to kill the boys and spare the girls (children), not the women. Therefore, you're guilty of a circular argument. You, like these translators, presume nisa must mean only women. But that cannot be true from what we know of this story. Hence, nisa must mean both adult and pre-adult females.
Another gem by cassie... and since when the Quran ever matched the Biblical stories word for word? In fact, if I'm not mistaken ALL the stories in the Quran are usually *fundamentally* different from those in the Bible.
So? It beggars belief that Pharaoh would kill boys and spare the adult women. And not mention the pre-adult girls. Both the story - which is well-known, and the contast between the boys and nisa - show that the nisa must include pre-adult girls.

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