65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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debunker
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by debunker »

So you are saying Nisa exclusively refers to women, not to female children?
Of course, Nisa is EXCLUSIVELY used for women. Just like Rijal is exlusively used for men.

Also "Lam" = did not. Period. So, "Lam Yahidna" = did not menstruate.
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Aksel Ankersen
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Aksel Ankersen »

debunker wrote:"Lam Yahidna" = did not menstruate.
Does Lam Yahidna = "did not menstruate (at any time in the past)" as Lam Tamassuhunna = "you did not touch them (at any time in the past)" as per 2:236?
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by debunker »

I don't understand your question.

EDIT: I guess I understand your question.

In the other verse it said "did not touch", naturally it's understood that the man never touched his wife before.

Now, when I say "I did not go to college". It can mean: I never went to college or simply I did not go to college this day.

So "did not menstruate" can be understood as:

1- did not menstruate (at any time in the past). That's what Bukhari did to support his opinion (using the Quran as well) that little children can be married. Every other scholar followed their beloved Bukhari... while the idiots contradicted themselves when they interpreted 4:6.

Or

2- did not menstruate (when divorced). Since, by default, the verse was talking about the waiting period for the divorced.
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Cassie
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Cassie »

debunker wrote:So "did not menstruate" can be understood as:

1- did not menstruate (at any time in the past). That's what Bukhari did to support his opinion (using the Quran as well) that little children can be married. Every other scholar followed their beloved Bukhari... while the idiots contradicted themselves when they interpreted 4:6.

Or

2- did not menstruate (when divorced). Since, by default, the verse was talking about the waiting period for the divorced.
Your #2 cannot be right because then the woman would have to wait three monthly courses, not three months. The fact that 65-4 refers to three months, not monthly courses, means the woman cannot menstruate.

Also, nisa can mean infants too. See 4-127.

ويستفتونك في النساء قل الله يفتيكم فيهن ومايتلى عليكم في الكتاب في يتامى النساء اللاتي لاتؤتونهن ماكتب لهن وترغبون ان تنكحوهن والمستضعفين من الولدان وان تقوموا لليتامى بالقسط وماتفعلوا من خير فان الله كان به عليما

When Muslims ask about who are these nisa, Allah (aka Muhammad) said they are:

1. Orphans
2. Female wards
3. Those you desire to marry
4. The weakened from the children or new born.


These are the categories of females for whom the term 'nisa' in surah al-nisa refers to.

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by fudgy »

Debunker, not every scholar. Asad doesn't think it refers to immature girls. Women who do not have any courses does not mean little girls in the swing.

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Cassie »

You wouldn't call a mature married woman a jaria, would you? Unless she is pre-pubertal.

65-4 may refer to 2 types of nisa who do not menstruate - those who are too young to menstruate or those who suffer from a menstrual disorder. Because allah failed to clarify which, both must apply. Also, the number of girls who are too young to menstruate far far far outnumber those women who suffer from amennorrhea.

That is why ancient Muslims like Bukhari interpret 65-4 to apply to young pre-pubertal girls. To claim that this is not so is to admit allah is an effwit who misled Muslims for 14 centuries until Western kafir scientists recognize the menstrual disorder of amenorrhea. Without us, you people would have no idea at all. All the pre-20th century tafsirs interpret 65-4 to apply to pre-pubertal girls.

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by yeezevee »

fudgy is fudging here...
fudg: Debunker, not every scholar. Asad doesn't think it refers to immature girls. Women who do not have any courses does not mean little girls in the swing.
yes..yes..

Women who do not have any courses means 60 year old women that is what Prophet says.. you can see that from his women and 13 marriages he had after his first wife death..

learn this...
Women usually have periods until menopause. Menopause occurs between the ages of 45 and 55, usually around age 50. Menopause means that a woman is no longer ovulating (producing eggs) and can no longer get pregnant. Like menstruation, menopause can vary from woman to woman and these changes may take several years to occur. The time when your body begins its move into menopause is called the menopausal transition. This can last anywhere from two to eight years. Some women have early menopause because of surgery or other treatment, illness, or other reasons. If a woman doesn’t have a period for 90 days, she should see her doctor to check for pregnancy, early menopause, or other medical problems that can cause periods to stop or become irregular.
and Learn this also..
When does a girl usually get her first period?

The average age is ~12. This does not mean that all girls start at the same age. A girl can start her period anytime between the ages of eight and 15. Usually, the first period starts about two years after breasts first start to grow. If a girl has not had her first period by age 15, or if it has been more than two to three years since breast growth started, she should see a doctor.
And DO NOT FUDGE in FFI., you can do that with some brain washed brain dead Muslims who says Jazakallah...Jazakallah..Jazakallah...Allah hoooo akbaaar.,.......

O.k. dear fudgy

yeezevee

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

fudgy wrote:Debunker, not every scholar. Asad doesn't think it refers to immature girls. Women who do not have any courses does not mean little girls in the swing.
Asad also lies in 67:5 and tries to change missiles to "futile guesses" to hide the embarrassment of that verse. Now THAT'S a blatant liar for you.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by fudgy »

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
fudgy wrote:Debunker, not every scholar. Asad doesn't think it refers to immature girls. Women who do not have any courses does not mean little girls in the swing.
Asad also lies in 67:5 and tries to change missiles to "futile guesses" to hide the embarrassment of that verse. Now THAT'S a blatant liar for you.
Off topic here. I do not treat the Quran as a scientific nor a historical book. But what exactly is the embarrassment part again?

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by yeezevee »

Off topic here. I do not treat the Quran as a scientific nor a historical book. But what exactly is the embarrassment part again?
people like you FUDGING from Q'uran is the worst embarrassment part .

and.. and millions of Muslims considering Quran as a scientific , historical, Political, Psychological, geological.. biological ..embryological ..Allah manual..

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by charleslemartel »

fudgy wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
fudgy wrote:Debunker, not every scholar. Asad doesn't think it refers to immature girls. Women who do not have any courses does not mean little girls in the swing.
Asad also lies in 67:5 and tries to change missiles to "futile guesses" to hide the embarrassment of that verse. Now THAT'S a blatant liar for you.
Off topic here. I do not treat the Quran as a scientific nor a historical book. But what exactly is the embarrassment part again?
The embarrassing part here is the obvious ignorance of Allah in the matters of the cosmos; now the humans know far better than Allah of Quran that shooting stars (meteors) are NOT the missiles to fire at some jinns :lol:

It is immaterial how YOU choose to treat Quran. If it claims to be the word of God, it must not contain even a single error, scientific, historic or on any subject. A single error is enough to prove that it cannot be from the creator God. That Muslims do not accept this simple fact is another matter.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Trojan »

fudgy wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
fudgy wrote:Debunker, not every scholar. Asad doesn't think it refers to immature girls. Women who do not have any courses does not mean little girls in the swing.
Asad also lies in 67:5 and tries to change missiles to "futile guesses" to hide the embarrassment of that verse. Now THAT'S a blatant liar for you.
Off topic here. I do not treat the Quran as a scientific nor a historical book. But what exactly is the embarrassment part again?
Then what the heck is it? Allah telling bedtime stories ? ? ? Your admission of the lack of scientific and historical accuracy of the koran itself is embarrasment enough.

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Trojan »

charleslemartel wrote:
fudgy wrote: Off topic here. I do not treat the Quran as a scientific nor a historical book. But what exactly is the embarrassment part again?
The embarrassing part here is the obvious ignorance of Allah in the matters of the cosmos; now the humans know far better than Allah of Quran that shooting stars (meteors) are NOT the missiles to fire at some jinns :lol:

It is immaterial how YOU choose to treat Quran. If it claims to be the word of God, it must not contain even a single error, scientific, historic or on any subject. A single error is enough to prove that it cannot be from the creator God. That Muslims do not accept this simple fact is another matter.
His admission of the fact proves that he knows very well that the koran contains scientific and historical blunders, and yet it is ironic that he does not see this as being an embarassment. Is fudgy's trying to fudge his way out of this one?

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by debunker »

@ cassie
Your #2 cannot be right because then the woman would have to wait three monthly courses, not three months. The fact that 65-4 refers to three months, not monthly courses, means the woman cannot menstruate.
Really? I am not a woman but I guess a 3 month period is equivalent to 3 courses.

Example:

Say Maha had her last period in the 2nd week of July and she was divorced Aug 1st. This means on Nov. 1st she can get remarried. During this waiting period of 3 months she will have had exactly 3 courses. (during the 2nd week of Aug, the 2nd week of Sep and the second week of Oct.)

Of course, I'm not sure if women do have their periods regularly like clock work, but I guess a 3 month period guarantees 3 menstruation periods unless the woman is pregnant?

Finally, I guess I should add #3

3- did not menstruate (for whatever reason). Again, I'm not a doctor but I think that pregnancy is not the only reason for women to miss their periods... Am I wrong? If women do indeed miss their periods for reasons other than pregnancy then they should wait 3 months to be sure they're not pregnant.
Also, nisa can mean infants too. See 4-127.

ويستفتونك في النساء قل الله يفتيكم فيهن ومايتلى عليكم في الكتاب في يتامى النساء اللاتي لاتؤتونهن ماكتب لهن وترغبون ان تنكحوهن والمستضعفين من الولدان وان تقوموا لليتامى بالقسط وماتفعلوا من خير فان الله كان به عليما
So Nisa can mean little BOYS too! Yeah right, thank you for the Arabic lesson... the verse started talking about orphan women and then also mentioned little BOYS as well...

EDIT:
Secondary amenorrhoea (menstruation cycles ceasing) is often caused by hormonal disturbances from the hypothalamus and the pituitary gland or from premature menopause, or intrauterine scar formation. It is defined as the absence of menses for three months in a woman with previously normal menstruation or nine months for women with a history of oligomenorrhea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amenorrhoea" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So women can indeed not menstruate for reasons other than pregnancy. (some as simple as stress.)
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by debunker »

@ cassie

I just saw this brilliant piece of refutation by you:
That is why ancient Muslims like Bukhari interpret 65-4 to apply to young pre-pubertal girls. To claim that this is not so is to admit allah is an effwit who misled Muslims for 14 centuries until Western kafir scientists recognize the menstrual disorder of amenorrhea. Without us, you people would have no idea at all. All the pre-20th century tafsirs interpret 65-4 to apply to pre-pubertal girls.
Are you saying that 7-th century Arab women never experienced secondary amenorrhea? I just saw a link that says this can happen for reasons as common as stress! Are you saying that those ancient women were somehow resistant to this phenomenon, so they never knew that a female may not menstruate even when she's NOT preganant, a child or an old lady?

I, as a man, didn't know this because I'm not married, nor do I have female relatives talking about their period patterns in front of me... any shaky knowledge I had about this issue was obtained from TV.

As for Bukhari, even if he didn't know this fact, then women of his (or *ANY*) time/place must have known this.

So what are you saying? Women of ancient times did NOT know that a woman can still cease to menstruate even if she weren't pregnant?
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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charleslemartel wrote: The embarrassing part here is the obvious ignorance of Allah in the matters of the cosmos; now the humans know far better than Allah of Quran that shooting stars (meteors) are NOT the missiles to fire at some jinns :lol:

It is immaterial how YOU choose to treat Quran. If it claims to be the word of God, it must not contain even a single error, scientific, historic or on any subject. A single error is enough to prove that it cannot be from the creator God. That Muslims do not accept this simple fact is another matter.
I do not get you Charles, can you clarify your positions again. Where exactly do you get a shooting star from? And why couldn't they be fired at Jinns?

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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YuckyBee can you please get the hell away from me? Trojan welcome to my Fudgy's recycle bin buddy.

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Maersk »

Its just Modk the Pedophile idea of Allah having fun in his own fun arcade. ; - Firing missiles at Jinns under his own Big Top. The muslim clowns enjoy the narration by Modk as Allah entertains the Muslim idiots. :lotpot:

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Aksel Ankersen »

debunker wrote:
Also, nisa can mean infants too. See 4-127.

ويستفتونك في النساء قل الله يفتيكم فيهن ومايتلى عليكم في الكتاب في يتامى النساء اللاتي لاتؤتونهن ماكتب لهن وترغبون ان تنكحوهن والمستضعفين من الولدان وان تقوموا لليتامى بالقسط وماتفعلوا من خير فان الله كان به عليما
So Nisa can mean little BOYS too! Yeah right, thank you for the Arabic lesson... the verse started talking about orphan women and then also mentioned little BOYS as well...
Debunker I think Cassie means these words i.e. يتامى النساء orphan girls.

This group of Nisa - the Yatama - are orphaned before reaching the age of marriage, the Koran tells us this much, ergo they are children.

وابتلوا اليتامى حتى اذا بلغوا النكاح

And examine the orphans (al-Yatama) until they attain the age of marriage

an-Nisa verse 6
Last edited by Aksel Ankersen on Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by debunker »

@ Aksel,

Actually she did say Nisa can mean "infants" among other things which is quite laughable.

And yes when an orphan girl becomes a woman, she becomes an orphan woman (an orphan who reached a marriageable age).
Last edited by debunker on Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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