65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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Yahya Snow
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65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Yahya Snow »

I hope all is well.
Only somebody with a hateful agenda or somebody very ignorant of Islam would claim that the Quran allows sex with immature girls. No religion allows this and it is an insult to the intelligence when a bigot levels this false claim at Muslims. This article of mine refutes the claim and shows the claim to be nothing but hot air. More articles debunking the propaganda here:

<spam deleted by M>

Does the Quran allow Sex with immature girls? No!
An allegation by Islamophobes on the internet; they claim the Quran allows sex with pre-pubescent girls, this is a hateful and bigoted allegation that has no other intention but to demonize Muslims. By Yahya Snow

Of course this claim contains no truth and is absurd. There are abundant claims of this fallacious and hateful nature on the internet. The internet is an unregulated media which means it can be a safe-haven for all sorts of hate-mongers and aberrations; in this case their vile and unscholarly claims are directed at Muslims.

I am a student of comparative religion and it astounds me that anybody can make such sullying claims against any religion, through study you realise that all religions tech good basic morals and encourage good and just actions.
Another aspect of this bizarre claim that truly saddens me is that this ignorant claim is supported by some Christian evangelical groups on the internet. I say anybody who supports claims of this nature has nothing to do with any religion but has everything to do with the devil’s work. My message to any Christian who supports such dehumanising claims is thus; fear God, for you are working inequity.

Having condemned their actions as hateful, ignorant and as propaganda used to demonize Muslims we must do the scholarly thing and look at their claim and show it to be false in a scholarly fashion so that people who may be unsure realise that the Quran does not support pedophilia. Let us examine their claim.

They claim that the Quran, chapter 65 verse 4, allows pedophilia. The verse in question is speaking of…As their fallacious claim is hinged on this reference allow us to quote an English translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali:

65:4- Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.

As you can see, the verse is actually pertaining to divorce and it is not instructing Muslims in pedophilia. One may ask how did the Islamophobes come to such a horrific allegation. Is it a totally baseless allegation or do they support it with some sort of argumentation?

Well their allegations are based on two fallacious arguments, both of which are addressed:

Their first argument:
Their allegation is in fact based on ‘those who have no courses’. They allege that this term refers to those who are still pre-pubescent. They are correct; it does refer to those who are yet to have their period. The problem here is that the islamophobic critic adds into this verse their own interpretation. They allege that this verse means that Muslims can have sex with pre-pubescent girls (paedophilia) as Muslims are allowed to conduct marriages between immature girls and men. This, of course, is their mischievous addition to the text. It may fool the one who is unversed with the context and the norms of the time in Arabia.

In Semitic communities, including Jewish communities (the community of Jesus included too) people would marry off their daughters to older men despite their daughters being immature (i.e. pre-pubescent). The girls would have to wait for maturity (ie puberty) before consummating the marriage. Of course (in Islam) once the girl has reached a mature age she decides if she wants the marriage to stand (I stress this so nobody goes away with the idea that Islam allows forced marriage). If she agrees upon it then she can consummate the marriage and live as husband and wife. The term to describe this (marrying off before maturity) would be ‘betrothal’, the most well known example of betrothal in history would be that of Mary being betrothed to Joseph, before Mary and Joseph came together for consummation (i.e. before Mary’s full maturity) she became pregnant with Jesus via immaculate conception.

This example is not given to digress but to illustrate that this did happen it is an example that Christians, Jews and Muslims can relate to. None of the communities mentioned (Islamic, Christian or Jewish) allowed sex with the girl before maturity so any accusation that disagrees with this fact is a false accusation. As we are speaking of Muslims I feel compelled to show that Islam does not allow sex with immature girls. This will be highlighted through two examples:

1. Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) took part in this type of union too where the parents of a lady named Aisha betrothed their daughter (Aisha) to Muhammad (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) and the parents of the girl waited until she had reached puberty before consummation of the marriage was allowed to take place. This is a recorded fact in history and the waiting period was roughly three years.
2. The all-encompassing example in this regard is given by looking at Islamic Law which is based on the Quran and the teachings of the last Prophet of Allah. So the bigot really should have looked at Islamic law (Jurisprudence) concerning marriage before making such an allegation. Islamic law does not allow sex with minors (both girls and boys). According to Islamic Law males can only have sexual contact with a female, if both parties are physically and mentally mature. The physical aspect refers to the maturity (having reached puberty) and mentally mature refers to somebody who is mentally capable (for example, you may have a mentally handicapped lady who has attained physical maturity but may be mentally handicapped, thus she would be deemed to be amongst those who are not eligible for marriage).


Their second argument:

The alternative argument follows a slightly different despite leading to the same allegation. The argument follows the same unscholarly skeleton as their first argument; both arguments are built on their own interpolations and interpretations into the clear text of the Quran.

In this case they bring forth another verse from the Quran (33:49) and try to impose their understanding of the verse into the previously mentioned Quranic verse (65:4); I will quote an English translation of the Quran of the new verse, 33:49-

O ye who believe! When ye marry believing women, and then divorce them before ye have touched them, no period of 'Iddat have ye to count in respect of them: so give them a present. And set them free in a handsome manner.

Just to help the reader understand an Iddah/Iddat is merely a woman's post marital waiting period (of time), this period of time must expire before she marries again. There are four wisdoms behind the Iddat period (given by Abdul-Karim Zidan, Nazarat fi ash-Shari`ah al-Islamiyyah):

1- To discern whether the woman is pregnant or not. 2- Shari`ah has ordained the period of `Iddah to avoid any confusion of lineage which may result from the woman's pressing need of marriage. 3- The period a woman spends in `Iddah whether short or otherwise sheds light on the seriousness of marriage and how far it is a sacred bond. 4- It allows the man and the woman to think twice before breaking up the family tie, especially in cases where divorce is revocable. (Source: The Kuwaiti Encyclopaedia of Fiqh)


So, in short, the Quran (33:49) teaches us that that there is no Iddat if the man did not touch the wife (i.e. he did not have sex with her). However, for the immature girl we realise she has an Iddat. One may wonder what is the benefit for an immature girl to have an Iddat. We must remember that the girl’s family would have been responsible for setting up the marriage therefore any breaking of this marriage contract would have been between the husband (and/or his family) and the family of the girl. Family ties are very important in Islam therefore an Iddat gives the two parties a period of time to reconcile. In short, emotions would be more prominent in this type of divorce as opposed to a divorce between a mature female and male.

Going back to their claim; the Islamophobe uses verse 33:49 and then suggests that the previously mentioned verse (65:4) allows sex with pre-pubescent girls as 65:4 teaches Muslims that girls who have not had puberty have an Iddat if they are divorced. This is their claim, it is not substantiated by the Quran, and nowhere does the Quran allow sex with pre-pubescent girls. The Islamophobe uses textual acrobatics and his own interpolations in order to argue for his allegation.
The Quran gives a general instruction in 33:49 but simply gives an exception in 65:4. So it is clear that girls (immature) who have been married and are divorced are afforded an Iddat despite not having had sex with her husband. These girls are immature girls who have never even lived with the husband never mind having had sex with the husband. These immature girls live with their parents/guardians until they reach maturity and only after that they can consummate the marriage if the girl agrees to the union. Contrary to the Islamophobes’ claims these girls are not allowed to have sex with the husband until they reach maturity. This is proven by the following five pieces of evidence:

The Prophet Muhammed married an immature girl and waited three years (i.e. waited for her to reach maturity before consummating the marriage, this is documented in the reference section).(1) This action of the Prophet Mohammed shows Muslims that sex with pre-pubescent girls is not allowed, this is evidenced by the fact that the Prophet Mohammed did not consummate the marriage immediately (i.e. when the girl was pre-pubescent).(4) This action scuppers the Islamophobe’s argument because the actions of the Prophet oppose their unscholarly claims.
Islamic Law is based on the Quran and the actions of the Prophet Muhammed. Islamic Law does not allow sex with pre-pubescent girls, in fact Islamic Law does not allow sex with minors (both girls and boys), and this is shown in al-Fath by Al-Hafiz ibn Hajar. According to Islamic Law males can only have sexual contact with a female, if both parties are physically and mentally mature. This is a key point as the Law is based on the Quran as well as teachings of the Prophet so if the Islamophobe was correct then Islamic Law would allow sex with pre-pubescent girls. This is not the case and pours a comprehensive refutation upon the perverted claims of the Islamophobe. (3)
No mufassireen (commentators of the Quran) or companion of the Prophet viewed the verse 65:4 as allowing sex with immature girls. The mufassireen and companions of the Prophet are authoritative sources on the Quran and if they did not deem it to allow pre-pubescent sex then it is safe to say that the Quran does not allow such a thing.
The Quran (4:6) illustrates to us quite clearly that there is an ‘age of marriage’. This is another key point as it directly opposes the claim of the Islamophobe. (2)
No non-Muslim scholar such as Karen Armstrong or W.M. Watt made such a claim, surely if they believed the Islamophobe then they would have voiced the claim.

Based on the evidence outlined above; it is clear that the Quran does not allow sex with pre-pubescent girls.
Just to put all this into perspective, the Quran, the Prophet, the companions of the Prophet, the Mufassireen, Muslims scholars, non-Muslims scholars and Islamic Law all disagree with the Islamophobe’s claim. The Islamophobe has no evidence to back up his claim; he merely has conjecture and his own perverted interpretation of the Quran. An interpretation that is in opposition to the Quran, the Prophet, the companions of the Prophet, the Mufassireen, Muslims scholars, non-Muslims scholars and Islamic Law.

So my message to the Islamopobe is thus; if you make a claim in a scholarly field then you must bring evidence to back your claim up and not conjecture and your own faulty interpretations that differ to all the authoritative interpretations and sources.

The first rule of making a positive assertion is:

‘Bring your evidence if you are truthful’

The Islamophobe is making a positive claim, therefore the burden of proof is on him, just to remind him; your own interpretation, speculation and conjecture does not constitute as evidence and nor can it be substituted for evidence. If I employed the same shoddy scholarship and deceptive argumentative approach as the Islamophobes have shown here I could state:

‘Barack Obama is from the planet Mars and his parents are Superman and Lara Croft. Because Mars is in the same solar-system as the Earth and Superman came to the planet Earth and met Lara Croft’

The questioner may ask me to prove this claim, using the Islamophobe’s argument I would merely restate my claim and interpolate a load of speculation and conjecture into the fold. Silly! The Islamophobe’s claim is also described as ‘silly’!

Their claim can be dismissed as untruthful, untrustworthy, unsubstantiated and shoddy to the extent that is an insult to the term ‘a school-boy error’.


To summarize:

The Islamophobe interpolates his own sad views into the Quran by claiming that the Quran allows sex with the pre-pubescent girl. This is dismissed as errant nonsense by all those who know about the concept of betrothal, Islamic history, Islamic scholarship, Islamic Law, the Quran, the Seerah and non-Muslim scholarship of Islam. It just goes to show that a ‘little knowledge is dangerous’, I would like to add that severely stunted knowledge coupled with a hateful agenda is even more dangerous as illustrated by the nature of the ignorant claims of the Islamophobes. W.Montgomery Watt (a Western scholar of Islam) speaks about the sexually charged critique that critics of Islam level at Islam and he suggests that men often project their own faults onto others and criticize others for what is really a more serious flaw in themselves. (5) This is food for thought for the Islamophobe as it points the finger at them. The issue of Christian clergy and abuse of children in their care and extreme evangelical Chrsitian’s ‘sexual claims’ against Islam springs to mind. This is quite apposite as a lot of anti-Islamic material originates from ‘not so loving’ evangelical Christians.

If that is not enough for the Islamophobes then nothing will suffice.

May Allah guide us all and keep us away from the trickery of the Islamophobes, may Allah also help the Islamophobes see the inequity and deception in their claims. Ameen.

References

1. Karen Armstrong, Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, Harper San Francisco, 1992, page 157
2. Quran translation (A.Y. Ali) for 4:6-
And try orphans (as regards their intelligence) until they reach the age of marriage; if then you find sound judgement in them, release their property to them, but consume it not wastefully, and hastily fearing that they should grow up, and whoever amongst guardians is rich, he should take no wages, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable (according to his work). And when you release their property to them, take witness in their presence; and Allah is All Sufficient in taking account.
3.
http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/Show ... on=FatwaId" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
4. http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/ ... %20Refuted" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
5. What Is Islam by W.Montgomery Watt, Longman Group, Second Edition, 1979, pg230
Defending Islam against misinformation at:

http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yeezevee
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by yeezevee »

Are yout trying to fill the board with 10 page writings that goes on and on in circular path dear Yahya Snow? what you wrote here in defense of Islam on the subject of OLD FOOLS marrying prepubescent girls is same as that in the other thread you opened., why don't you put this stuff in that folder??
65:4- Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.
So what it says?? what do you understand by those colored words??

Did you watch this guy??

Image
Please watch Dr. Ahmad Al-Mub'i, a Saudi Marriage Official June 19, 2008 - 00:03:08 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak0_UvzjgnU&feature=fvw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

listen to him..

yeezevee

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Maersk
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Maersk »

Why don't we decide for Muslims when their daughters are matured to be married to an infidel.

Connedbymo+co
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Connedbymo+co »

Yahya Snow wrote:I hope all is well.
Only somebody with a hateful agenda or somebody very ignorant of Islam would claim that the Quran allows sex with immature girls. No religion allows this and it is an insult to the intelligence when a bigot levels this false claim at Muslims.
Are you calling the major scholars of Islam ignorant? What about Bukhari Hadeeth?
Stop kidding yourself and deal with the facts.

Ps This is in the wrong sub forum-CALLING MODERATORS!!
Muslims have no interest in the truth, they only care about maintaining their delusion.

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kenmirzz
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by kenmirzz »

Mr Yahya Snow, you are denying the 1400 years old of Islamic scholarships that consist mostly of the Sunni and Shia view on this. Mr Yeezewee already presented to you the view of one of Sunni scholar, then here it is from Ayatullah Khomeini, the Shia: A man can quench his sexual lusts with a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. Sodomizing the baby is halal (allowed by sharia). If the man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister. It is better for a girl to marry when her menstruation starts, and at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven."

Khomeini, "Tahrirolvasyleh" fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990


Quran and Sunnah are unanimous in legalizing such practice though later, certain Islamic scholars being ashamed of this and instituted limits of age. But overall, Quran and Sunnah silence about this issues were to be taken as permission according to the basic rules of Fiqh or Islamic Jurispundence. Please go and do research about the age of Umm Khulthum, the daughter of Ali Bin Talib when she was married to Umar Bin Al Khattab. These two are the among the closest companion of Muhammad and their deeds are taken as canonical by many Islamic Scholars.

Mr Snow, please avoid labelling certain people as Islamophobes just because you disagree with their approach. The Quran and Sunnah and practice of companions were clear, do not try to cover the sun with sticky mud. You wont be able to conceal the brightness.

Humanity is but one family. :)

yeezevee
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by yeezevee »

Image
Ghada Jamsheer was the first person and brave lady to speak out on these ISLAMIC TRADITION OF CHILD MOLESTATION ..

watch her videos here to learn what goes on with certain STUPID MUSLIMS.,,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izUv-ywBeg4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

please watch until the end.. and I also say Kudos to that interviewer ., he appears to be the best guy..

Damn Islam is filed with CHILD ABUSERS one way or other way, in so many different ways, Not just sexual .. watch these kids and imagine their mental status

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQPMt7LM_IE&NR=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBb8H2cR3CU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


STUPID RELIGION SILLY PEOPLE
yeezevee

Yahya Snow
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Yahya Snow »

yeezevee and connedbymo...

Are you guys for real...I show you a scholarly article and you just spout empty rhetoric and link me to youtube videos of no scolarly use whatsoever..

Try challenging your pre-prepared thoughts and read the material I have outlined for you on this forum, this material is also at the blogsite:

<spam deleted by M>

So at least read it.

By the way, if you cannot challenge me then bring somebody you think can challenge my material intellectually and via EVIDENCE rather than spouting futile rhetoric.

Thanks, peace.

Email me when you find that 'somebody' because it is quite clear that this forum is beset by Islamophobes who have no knowledge whatsoever.
Defending Islam against misinformation at:

http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yahya Snow
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Yahya Snow »

kenmirzz...

You have been duped by the propaganda against Islam too.

The shia that you cite is not an authority on Islam, 90% of Muslims are Sunni and do not regard the shia you quoted.


Concerning your quote...from my information, it is not about sex with humans...strangely enough it is about it is about animals and whether they are lawful to eat if somebody abuses them. So you need to think about where you are getting your information from.

BUT more importantly, the citation you quote has no confirmation and is considered a forgery.
So, whichever site you got it from has duped you and in the process the site has been exposed as an unscholarly source that is more interested in producing propaganda against islam rather than citing accurate sources. in any academic setting your argument would be thrown out, in any court of law your argument would be instantly dismissed...so the question is why did you use this argumentation...? Food for thought...



A book "Tahrirolvasyleh", cited on the Internet, which quotes the Shia Ayatollah Khomeini approving of sex with animals under certain conditions, is unconfirmed and possibly a forgery.[63][64][65][66] It is however contested whether such a fourth volume of Tahrirolvasyleh ever in fact existed (see Tahrirolvasyleh). No evidence of verified translations or cited references seems to be found in the hands of independent (Western) or other notable Islamic scholars and the main sources seem to be anti-Islamic in nature. Though the book Tahrir-ul-Vasyleh does exist, there is widespread suspicion concerning the existence and authenticity of such a "fourth book".

see..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestiality" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For more info on lies about Islam:

<spam deleted by M>

So ken, please do not use sources of that nature to support arguments against Islam as they are not evidence-based!

Also, Ken..I label anybody who produces inaccurate information for propaganda purposes against Islam as an 'Islamophobe'...I do have a criteria:)

But do watch your sources and tell the website owner (from where you got the shia 'quote' from) that he is wrong and being unfair...i am sure he does not want to continue deceiving people about Islam:)

Thanks
Defending Islam against misinformation at:

http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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ixolite
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by ixolite »

Stop spamming.

This is a discussion site and not a site to dump your links.

M.


Connedbymo+co wrote:Ps This is in the wrong sub forum-CALLING MODERATORS!!
Next time simply use the report button. :wink:

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Aksel Ankersen
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Aksel Ankersen »

Hello Yahya Snow

This will be my 2nd response now that you've opened a new thread with updates concerning al-Ahzab verse 49.

Yahya Snow wrote:Their second argument:

The alternative argument follows a slightly different despite leading to the same allegation. The argument follows the same unscholarly skeleton as their first argument; both arguments are built on their own interpolations and interpretations into the clear text of the Quran.

In this case they bring forth another verse from the Quran (33:49) and try to impose their understanding of the verse into the previously mentioned Quranic verse (65:4); I will quote an English translation of the Quran of the new verse, 33:49-

O ye who believe! When ye marry believing women, and then divorce them before ye have touched them, no period of 'Iddat have ye to count in respect of them: so give them a present. And set them free in a handsome manner.

Just to help the reader understand an Iddah/Iddat is merely a woman's post marital waiting period (of time), this period of time must expire before she marries again. There are four wisdoms behind the Iddat period (given by Abdul-Karim Zidan, Nazarat fi ash-Shari`ah al-Islamiyyah):

1- To discern whether the woman is pregnant or not. 2- Shari`ah has ordained the period of `Iddah to avoid any confusion of lineage which may result from the woman's pressing need of marriage. 3- The period a woman spends in `Iddah whether short or otherwise sheds light on the seriousness of marriage and how far it is a sacred bond. 4- It allows the man and the woman to think twice before breaking up the family tie, especially in cases where divorce is revocable. (Source: The Kuwaiti Encyclopaedia of Fiqh)


So, in short, the Quran (33:49) teaches us that that there is no Iddat if the man did not touch the wife (i.e. he did not have sex with her). However, for the immature girl we realise she has an Iddat. One may wonder what is the benefit for an immature girl to have an Iddat. We must remember that the girl’s family would have been responsible for setting up the marriage therefore any breaking of this marriage contract would have been between the husband (and/or his family) and the family of the girl.
It's harder for the girl to get re-married if she is not a virgin, therefore the 3iddah is applied equally even for pre-pubescent girls who one would not expect to fall pregnant.

However it is possible for a girl to conceive on her first menstrual cycle, thus, a girl who has as per 65:4 "not yet menstruated" could still become pregnant if an adult man had sexual intercourse with her.

Yahya Snow's claim that 3iddah is required for prepubescent girls even if they are virgins is not supported by the Koran. Furthermore according to the hadith - I am assuming he accepts Sunni hadith - there is no reason why, in Islam, the family of the bride arranging for a minor to be married is any different to their arrangements for the marriage of a mature virgin:

Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that al-Qasim ibn Muhammad and Salim ibn Abdullah were marrying off their daughters and they did not consult them. Malik said, "That is what is done among us about the marriage of virgins." Malik said, "A virgin has no right to her property until she enters her house and her state (competence, maturity etc.) is known for sure."

-Malik's Muwatta number 28.2.6
Yahya Snow wrote:Family ties are very important in Islam therefore an Iddat gives the two parties a period of time to reconcile. In short, emotions would be more prominent in this type of divorce as opposed to a divorce between a mature female and male.
This is a strange claim; how can you possibly argue that an immature girl will have deeper feelings for her husband than a mature woman and therefore the divorce will be harder on her?
Yahya Snow wrote:Going back to their claim; the Islamophobe uses verse 33:49 and then suggests that the previously mentioned verse (65:4) allows sex with pre-pubescent girls as 65:4 teaches Muslims that girls who have not had puberty have an Iddat if they are divorced. This is their claim, it is not substantiated by the Quran, and nowhere does the Quran allow sex with pre-pubescent girls. The Islamophobe uses textual acrobatics and his own interpolations in order to argue for his allegation.

The Quran gives a general instruction in 33:49 but simply gives an exception in 65:4.
Where is the proof that 65:4 either abrogates or specifies an exception for 33:49? This is wishful thinking.

Yahya's case revolves around the assumption that it is permissible in Islam to marry but not have sex with pre-pubescent girls, the Koran on the other hand tells us that wives are a "tilth" for their husbands, who may "sow" them whenever they please:

Your wives are your field: go in, therefore, to your field as ye will; but do first some act for your souls' good: and fear ye God, and know that ye must meet Him; and bear these good tidings to the faithful.

al-Baqara verse 223
Yahya Snow wrote:So it is clear that girls (immature) who have been married and are divorced are afforded an Iddat despite not having had sex with her husband. These girls are immature girls who have never even lived with the husband never mind having had sex with the husband. These immature girls live with their parents/guardians until they reach maturity and only after that they can consummate the marriage if the girl agrees to the union. Contrary to the Islamophobes’ claims these girls are not allowed to have sex with the husband until they reach maturity. This is proven by the following five pieces of evidence:

The Prophet Muhammed married an immature girl and waited three years (i.e. waited for her to reach maturity before consummating the marriage, this is documented in the reference section).(1) This action of the Prophet Mohammed shows Muslims that sex with pre-pubescent girls is not allowed, this is evidenced by the fact that the Prophet Mohammed did not consummate the marriage immediately (i.e. when the girl was pre-pubescent).(4) This action scuppers the Islamophobe’s argument because the actions of the Prophet oppose their unscholarly claims.
Islamic Law is based on the Quran and the actions of the Prophet Muhammed. Islamic Law does not allow sex with pre-pubescent girls, in fact Islamic Law does not allow sex with minors (both girls and boys), and this is shown in al-Fath by Al-Hafiz ibn Hajar. According to Islamic Law males can only have sexual contact with a female, if both parties are physically and mentally mature. This is a key point as the Law is based on the Quran as well as teachings of the Prophet so if the Islamophobe was correct then Islamic Law would allow sex with pre-pubescent girls. This is not the case and pours a comprehensive refutation upon the perverted claims of the Islamophobe. (3)
No mufassireen (commentators of the Quran) or companion of the Prophet viewed the verse 65:4 as allowing sex with immature girls. The mufassireen and companions of the Prophet are authoritative sources on the Quran and if they did not deem it to allow pre-pubescent sex then it is safe to say that the Quran does not allow such a thing.
As to Muhammad's example and the maturity of Aysha at Nikah, I feel that should be discussed in another thread as the issue of whether or not Muhammad comitted paedophilia is not strictly relevant to whether or not Islam condones paedophilia; Muhammad did not personally partake in everything made Halal to the Muslims. As for the Koranic commentators, I wish to see evidence that they specifically forbade intercourse with pre-pubescent girls, as the Tafsirs all interpret 65:4 as permitting marriage, a union under which sexual relationships are made lawful. The onus is therefore upon Yahya Snow to prove that sexual relationships are forbidden in this specific form of marriage.
Yahya Snow wrote:The Quran (4:6) illustrates to us quite clearly that there is an ‘age of marriage’. This is another key point as it directly opposes the claim of the Islamophobe. (2)
The Koran did not specify an age of marriage in years or rule that menarche was a prerequisite, and therefore the reference of an-Nisa verse 6 is not helpful in proving maturity is required for sexual relationships in Islam.
بدرود , بدرود , بدرود

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by debunker »

@ Aksel

The verse said: those who did not menstruate (there' no "yet" in the verse.) I understood it as "those who did not menstruate (when divorced)" should wait 3 months before remarrying (after all, the verse was talking about divorcing *women*).

Anyway, here's an excellent article by Sam Shamoun.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Co ... e_age.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Using Tafsir + Hadith, Sam Shamoun did 2 things:
1- He proved that 4:6 contradicts 65:4 on the age of marriage.
2- Muhammed violated 4:6

I agree with Sam Shmoun's analysis (which was based on Hadith & Tasfsir) 100%. The *great scholars* contradicted themselves when interpreting both 4:6 and 65:4. Our great scholars never cease to astonish!
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by kenmirzz »

to Mr Yahya Snow

Sayyid Abul A'laa Mawdudi in his tafsir Tafheemul Quran intepreted the verse in Suraa 65:4 like this, I quote him word by word:

Here, one should bear in mind the fact that according to the explanations given in the Quran the question of the waiting period arises in respect of the women with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waiting-period in case divorce is pronounced before the consummation of marriage. (Al-Ahzab: 49). Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Quran has held as permissible.

Syeikh Muhammad Ibnu Uthaymeen in his Majmoo’at As’ilah tahumm al-Usrah al-Muslimah, p. 61–63; commented like this: If a woman does not menstruate, either because she is very young or old and past menopause, then her ‘iddah is three months, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise [Quran. Surah al-Talaaq 65:4]


Combine this with this Hadith:
Narrated Sahl bin Sad:
While we were sitting in the company of the Prophet a woman came to him and presented herself (for marriage) to him. The Prophet looked at her, lowering his eyes and raising them, but did not give a reply. One of his companions said, "Marry her to me O Allah's Apostle!" The Prophet asked (him), "Have you got anything?" He said, "I have got nothing." The Prophet said, "Not even an iron ring?" He said, "Not even an iron ring, but I will tear my garment into two halves and give her one half and keep the other half." The Prophet; said, "No. Do you know some of the Quran (by heart)?" He said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "Go, I have agreed to marry her to you with what you know of the Qur'an (as her Mahr)." 'And for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature). (65.4) And the 'Iddat for the girl BEFORE PUBERTY is three months (in the above Verse). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 63)

Refer to Ibnu Kathir Tafsir of this verse: Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. 2:228). The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their 'Iddah is three months like those in menopause. [Ibn Kathir on Quran 65:4]

Tafsir Jalalayn by Imam Suyuti intepreted like this: And [as for] those of your women who no longer expect to menstruate, if you have any doubts, about their waiting period, their prescribed [waiting] period shall be three months, and [also for] those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age, their period shall [also] be three months. [Tafsir Jalalain on Quran 65:4]

Please do check all the Tafsir books on this verse, Tafsir At Tabari, Tafsir Az- Zamakhshari, Tafsir Al Qurtubi and Tafsir Al Shawkani. They are unanimous on the permissiveness to marry an immature girl and having sex with them. The least you can defend is that though having sex with them is not allowed, enjoyment without penetration is allowed.

Is it the Islamophobes propaganda or not, you be the judge. The list of Islamophobes has included even the the most qualified Islamic scholars from ancient till now. Is it conspiracy theory again?

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Aksel Ankersen
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Aksel Ankersen »

Hello Debunker

As per your PM I considered debating this with you, but I knew you wanted to quit this site and so was in two minds about it. Mr Yahya Snow has taken a different position to you in that he accepts 65:4 to refer to pre-pubescent girls.

debunker wrote:@ Aksel

The verse said: those who did not menstruate (there' no "yet" in the verse.) I understood it as "those who did not menstruate (when divorced)" should wait 3 months before remarrying (after all, the verse was talking about divorcing *women*).

Anyway, here's an excellent article by Sam Shamoun.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Co ... e_age.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Using Tafsir + Hadith, Sam Shamoun did 2 things:
1- He proved that 4:6 contradicts 65:4 on the age of marriage.
2- Muhammed violated 4:6

I agree with Sam Shmoun's analysis (which was based on Hadith & Tasfsir) 100%. The *great scholars* contradicted themselves when interpreting both 4:6 and 65:4. Our great scholars never cease to astonish!
Mainstream Islam does not see a contradiction, as such, between 4:6 and 65:4.
[u]Sheik Saqr[/u] wrote:Islam does not specify a certain minimal age for marriage; rather, it placed a certain age for shouldering religious obligations in general. This age is the age of puberty, either by natural sign (the ability to ejaculate semen for a boy and menstruation for a girl) or by reaching the age of 15 lunar years. However, reaching this age is not necessary for validating the marriage contract, for it is up to the guardians to conduct marriages before [the bride or groom or both] have reached this age.
Could you please show me what word in the original tafsirs of 4:6 was translated as puberty?
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by debunker »

Like I said Shamoun did a great job and pointed out the contradiction (as per Tasfir). Apparently, this Sheik Saqr (you brought as evidence for no contradiction) was trying to wiggle his way out of a glaring contradiction. He couldn't simply say: "Those idiots weren't aware that they're contradicting themselves"... He had to invent a new Fartwa explaining away the contradiction.

Anyway, the expression used in Tafsir that was translated to reaching puberty is: بلوغ الحلم

And by the way, Sam Shamoun noted that Bukhari was the first *scholar* to have the opinion that 65:4 implied marriage before puberty was OK. So it's no wonder that the rest of all the scholars followed Bukhari's opinion on this verse (while they contradicted themselves on 4:6)
Moreover, note how the hadith compiler al-Bukhari explained this passage:

XXXIX. A man giving his young children in marriage

By the words of Allah, "that also applies to those who have not yet menstruated" (65:4) and He made the 'idda of a girl before puberty three months.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Co ... e_age.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyway, I repeat: The verse said: those who did not menstruate (there' no "yet" in the verse.) I understood it as "those who did not menstruate (when divorced)" should wait 3 months before remarrying just like the old ladies should wait to be sure (after all, the verse was talking about divorcing *women*).
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Aksel Ankersen »

debunker wrote:Like I said Shamoun did a great job and pointed out the contradiction (as per Tasfir). Apparently, this Sheik Saqr (you brought as evidence for no contradiction) was trying to wiggle his way out of a glaring contradiction. He couldn't simply say: "Those idiots weren't aware that they're contradicting themselves"... He had to invent a new Fartwa explaining away the contradiction.
The tafsirs are riddled with errors and illogical. So are the scholarly opinions based upon them. However, most Muslims do accept tafsirs and I just wanted to point out how they evade this problem.

However I still don't see the contradiction, the minimum age for Nikah was not defined by the Koran. According to the hadith, as we all know, it's nine years of age. Obviously the majority of girls have not menstruated by age nine, so would be included in al-laa-ee Lam Yahidna.

debunker wrote:Anyway, the expression used in Tafsir that was translated to reaching puberty is: بلوغ الحلم
Interestingly the Quran itself doesn't use the word Halam in 4:6. So for Koran reliant Muslims the issue remains unclear and for the Muslims who accept tafsirs, they still find marriage with immature girls permissible.
debunker wrote:Anyway, I repeat: The verse said: those who did not menstruate (there' no "yet" in the verse.) I understood it as "those who did not menstruate (when divorced)" should wait 3 months before remarrying just like the old ladies should wait to be sure (after all, the verse was talking about divorcing *women*).
How, in your opinion, would the verse be written to indicate "not yet" in the sense of "never".
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by piscohot »

Too bad the scholars didn't explain how can a 50+ years old man get a hardon looking at a 9 year old girl.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by fudgy »

marriage means responsibility. Quran defines marriageable age to be mature and someone who can understand and handle their properties..i.e. be responsible. In 65:4 there is no "yet" as debunker says, it is just simply talking about women who are not menstruating. It's about women not little kids. As I have said Ayesha seems to know awful lot for someone playing in the swing. These are simply Bukhari's invention. Purely from statistics point of view Ayesha's age of 9 does not make sense.

Also, I find it difficult that the Prophet had more than 4 wives at a time. There is another incident in Hadith where a person came with 10 wives and the Prophet told him to keep only 4. Hadiths is all over the place.

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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by debunker »

@ Aksel
The tafsirs are riddled with errors and illogical. So are the scholarly opinions based upon them. However, most Muslims do accept tafsirs and I just wanted to point out how they evade this problem.

However I still don't see the contradiction, the minimum age for Nikah was not defined by the Koran. According to the hadith, as we all know, it's nine years of age. Obviously the majority of girls have not menstruated by age nine, so would be included in al-laa-ee Lam Yahidna.
I told you Shamoun pointed out the contradiction using the opinion of Tafsir. I personally don't think that 4:6 defines the age of marriage, nor does 65:4 imply that young girls can be married. By default, since 65:4 was talking about divorcing women then that's what the verse was talking about: divorcing WOMEN.
Interestingly the Quran itself doesn't use the word Halam in 4:6. So for Koran reliant Muslims the issue remains unclear and for the Muslims who accept tafsirs, they still find marriage with immature girls permissible.
True: 4:6 does not define the age of marriage.. it only indicates that those children who become mentally mature have reached the age of marriage. As for Muslims who follow Tafsir the answer is Yes: 4:6 DOES define the age of marriage to be reaching puberty (or 15 years). And that's what Shamoun did! He laughed at the Tafsir for defining the age of marriage to be reaching puberty WHILE again according to Tafsir, 65:4 implies that pre-puscent girls can be married. So again, as per Tafsir there IS a contradiction and Shamoun pointed that out.
How, in your opinion, would the verse be written to indicate "not yet" in the sense of "never".
You mean in Arabic? Here: اللائي لم يحضن بعد
بعد means after or yet, so the word for yet (as in never) in Arabic is بعد which is missing in the verse.

As I said before, the language of the verse didn't change in anyway to indicate a shift from talking about women to talking about children. So by default the verse is still talking about divorcing women. A woman who was divorced while not having a period must wait 3 months. (because she might be pregnant). As you know, the only reason for a waiting period of 3 months is to avoid a pregnancy wrongly associated with the new husband.

As for why every single scholar is of the same opinion as of Bukhari, it's because Bukhari said so... in case you haven't noticed, he's practically a second prophet for Muslims.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

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1400 years and still muslims cannot agree on a single reasonable explanation of a verse from a book that is supposed to be clear and easy to understand. Doesn't that tell you something? If it is a practical religion, why is there so much vagueness and the same scholars whom muslims called Sahih for 1200 years have now become a liability for you because of the dirty laundry getting exposed.
and I wonder how girls as young as 8 or smaller are getting married in Arab world.
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Re: 65:4, The Quran does not allow sex with immature Girls!

Post by Aksel Ankersen »

debunker wrote:
How, in your opinion, would the verse be written to indicate "not yet" in the sense of "never".
You mean in Arabic? Here: اللائي لم يحضن بعد
بعد means after or yet, so the word for yet (as in never) in Arabic is بعد which is missing in the verse.
I hesitate to contradict a native Arabic speaker like yourself, but in other places in the Koran lam is used in past tense negation - to deny an action ever happening in the past - without the use of ba3d.

For example:

لاَّ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ إِن طَلَّقْتُمُ النِّسَآءَ مَا لَمْ تَمَسُّوهُنَّ أَوْ تَفْرِضُواْ لَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً وَمَتِّعُوهُنَّ عَلَى الْمُوسِعِ قَدَرُهُ وَعَلَى الْمُقْتِرِ قَدْرُهُ مَتَـعاً بِالْمَعْرُوفِ حَقًّا عَلَى الْمُحْسِنِينَ

You will incur no sin if you divorce women while you have not yet touched them nor settled a dower upon them; but [even in such a case] make provision for them - the affluent according to his means, and the straitened according to his means - a provision in an equitable manner: this is a duty upon all who would do good.

al-Baqara 236 (Asad's translation, not my favourite but he will suffice)
Is the word ba3d necessary to understand that in the situation hypothesised in this verse the husband has not yet consummated the marriage i.e. never slept with his bride?

It would seem to follow Lam Yahidna = never menstruated.

debunker wrote:As I said before, the language of the verse didn't change in anyway to indicate a shift from talking about women to talking about children. So by default the verse is still talking about divorcing women. A woman who was divorced while not having a period must wait 3 months. (because she might be pregnant). As you know, the only reason for a waiting period of 3 months is to avoid a pregnancy wrongly associated with the new husband.
So you are saying Nisa exclusively refers to women, not to female children?
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