Where have the muslims gone?

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
frankie
Posts: 2612
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: Where have the muslims gone?

Post by frankie »

Mughal wrote:
Hombre wrote: Still fact is fact. Anyone who claims to hear voices from Allah or God, in today's science its called Schizophrenia & he / she is treated as a a sick individual & treated in mental Hospital. Had Muhammad lived today & claim the same as he did in 610 ACE he too would be talking to a psychiatric doctor - Not a prophet & no enchilada,
I think you are wrong here dear hombre, the reason is anyone can claim anything from God but does it prove to be from God? If it does then that person is telling the truth. Anyone who declares such a person mad is himself insane.

regards and all the best.
Mughal
anyone can claim anything from God but does it prove to be from God? If it does then that person is telling the truth.
How did Mohammed know he was a prophet of God,what actions did he take to prove his claim?

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: Where have the muslims gone?

Post by manfred »

mughal wrote:I think you are wrong here dear hombre, the reason is anyone can claim anything from God but does it prove to be from God? If it does then that person is telling the truth. Anyone who declares such a person mad is himself insane.
Mughal, let's have a very close look at this little gem. In many ways, it summaries many of your posts here.
I think you are wrong here dear hombre,
So far so good. You can of course think whatever you wish to think.
the reason is anyone can claim anything from God but does it prove to be from God?
The answer to that is a resounding NO!

A claim like that is to be dismissed unless there is good evidence at least to show it has some merit. Part of the evidence would be... how well does it fit with other things "from God". "Thou shall not kill" does not sit well with "Kill the unbeliever wherever you find him". Both cannot be right. Is he a credible person and has he shown to be trustworthy in his life? Like, would you trust a war lord, slave trader and sex addict to be a credible messenger?
Even when all of this is established in favour of this new "messenger" we do not have "proof", all we have, PERHAPS, is a justification for a belief. Any part of it not, though, then you have good grounds to dismiss such claims.
If it does then that person is telling the truth.
This is the best part. Here you are turning common logic on its head. "If it does...." ??? clearly it does not. You just side step that. So you are pretending you have provided an argument when you have not. The conclusion is altogether crazy: So if someone CLAIMS anything "from God" then this means he is telling the truth. :barf: How so?
Anyone who declares such a person mad is himself insane.
And here your Muslim conditioning comes out .... After having presented an utter nonsense argument you conclude that the best way to proceed is to insult anyone who disagrees. In the real world, this would be where you would show people your machete.


Calling Mohammed a madman is perhaps more kindness than he deserves.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

sum
Posts: 6623
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: Where have the muslims gone?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

Here is what you said a year ago -
Dear sum, I will say it again, knowing about actual islamic way of life is of fundamental importance for proper understanding of the issue, how muhammad lived his life. I don't know why you are running away from defining a proper way of life? However if short answer makes you happy then yes, muhammad lived the way God told him according to the quran and the quran is a foundational primary source of the islamic way of life. This short answer explains nothing at all as I see it because it is the islamic way of life that is primary issue as far as I am concerned.

So you agree that Muhammad lived as the Koran dictated and was the perfect example for mankind. Your post agrees that Muhammad`s life was the same as the Islamic way of life.

You can not escape the fact that Muhammad`s life was the Islamic way of life for all time. Accepting this will save you an awful lot of time writing your own interpretation of the meaning of the Koran when Muhammad has shown you the right way.

sum

sum
Posts: 6623
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: Where have the muslims gone?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

Your quote -
I think you are wrong here dear hombre, the reason is anyone can claim anything from God but does it prove to be from God?

Muhammad claimed to receive revelations from god via Gabriel. As you say, does this prove that the revelations were from god?

Was Muhammad deluded or lying?

sum

Mughal
Posts: 871
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: Where have the muslims gone?

Post by Mughal »

sum wrote:Hello Mughal

Your quote -
I think you are wrong here dear hombre, the reason is anyone can claim anything from God but does it prove to be from God?

Muhammad claimed to receive revelations from god via Gabriel. As you say, does this prove that the revelations were from god?

Was Muhammad deluded or lying?

sum
Dear sum, please tell me what is meaning of word JIBREEL? This is where people are making loads of mistakes about the quran ie by not paying enough attention to meanings of words used in the quran. The quran needs to be understood in its own proper context. I want to know which muslim or kafir has ever managed to interpret the quran in its proper context after the messenger of God himself according to available knowledge of his own time.

People always have been fighting against the way of life God advised for them. They always foolishly assumed God never revealed any messages for people for their guidance. This was always their starting point against all claimants of messengership from God. This is why they treated them terribly. Same is going on even today because people still have not learned enough sense to examine the actual message properly. So long as people keep to this mindset, attitude and behaviour no best can ever come out of them but only minor good. This is why people are still treating each other like dirt.

No one is justified in criticising any book let alone book of God unless one has first and foremost understood it properly. None can understand book of God properly till one learns the way to do so and applies that way properly to the quran for its proper understanding.

This is why my question to all muslims and kaafirs is prove to yourselves you have the ability to understand the quran properly and then explain that way for me so I could see where you are coming from. I am the first one raising these basic questions. If you cannot prove the right way for understanding the quran properly to yourself and cannot explain it to others then your criticism of the quranic text is neither here nor there. I want people to prepare themselves for proper understanding of the quranic message and then tackle the issue of quran being word of God or not. Any other way talking about the quran is never going to solve the problem for us human beings.

Look at the quran for what it claims to be and give it due attention as an individual and then see what happens. Don't look at the quran in context of your own background or you will become entrapped by your mindset you may have which will stop you from discovering or learning the actual message in the quran. The best thing is to look at your own existing way of life where you have come from and look at the way of life the quran proposes and see the difference. Don't look at the way life of other people who do not belong to your society and judge the quran on that basis because any way of life of any people is not the way of life the quran proposes.

There is no such thing as a proper muslim society anywhere in the world today. If anyone claims such a thing then one has to first and foremost prove it and then use it as an example of a proper muslim society that is properly based upon the quran. The quran is simply put a proposal for humanity to base their human society upon the quranic model. That is all. It is up to people to try to understand as to what is actual quranic model of a quran based human society which the quran proposes. No human society can adopt quranic way of life till it first and foremost decodes the quran and puts its advised systems and structures in place. This is the main reason I am working on it. So far I am very successful but very slow due to my age and health reasons.

I wish I knew all what I have came to know now about the quran a long time earlier but societies to which one belongs keep their people entrapped. Since we have become trapped by each other into all sorts of nonsense having little or no time for what we actually need to know about our existence so things take longer to understand and then even longer to help others understand when most of them are not interested to know at all. In fact if personal interests of some people did not force us human beings to change we will have died the way we were born ie absolutely ignorant and foolish. So all is not in vain. It is a very long process but once it comes about things will suddenly speed up. It is only matter of time before people come to realise what is happening to them and why and what they need to to do to get out of this their self created situation.

So my advice for people is to learn different meaning of words used in the quran and then see which of them fit the context of the quranic text and why. The over all context of the quran is, islam is a way of life not a religion and way of life in quranic context is about livelihood not ritual worship as understood by people who have little or no sense of things or those who deliberately wish to divert message of the quran for their own agendas to use others abusively.

This is why my question for all human beings who claim to be muslims or kaafirs is, what is a way of life or what it can be? This goes a very long way in explaining the text of the quran in its proper context, so all should try it out. Read surah 113 in this context to see what it really means and what foolish people have been taking it to mean.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/113/1/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/113/st31.htm#1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

113:1 Say: I seek refuge with the Lord of the Dawn
113:2 From the mischief of created things;
113:3 From the mischief of Darkness as it overspreads;
113:4 From the mischief of those who practise secret arts;
113:5 And from the mischief of the envious one as he practises envy.

This surah is again talking about rule of law of God for mankind and has nothing at all to do with superstition. It is telling people if you want to live in peace with dignity and prosper then use things God has provided sensibly to help each other and not against each other as you already do and thereby mess up lives of each other. God created things are not evil but their misuse and mismanagement by people themselves can harm and destroy them. So those who misuse these things against each other try their tricks and mechanism to get away with it and God is warning them that his set up systems and laws do not allow this. Again the quran warns masses to be careful about such people as plan or plot or conspire against people at large to keep them away from way of life advised by God for them. So time after time again and again the meaning of words used in the quran have been mistranslated into something that makes absolutely no sense, why? Were all these translators ignorant or were they unknowingly or knowingly pushing ahead the agenda of those very people against whom God is warning humanity? For the very same reasons those who push these translations and interpretations of the quran by these people instead of coming up with their own well thought out ones cannot be considered free of their nonsense.

regards and all the best.

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: Where have the muslims gone?

Post by manfred »

Again Mughal, this is wrong in so many ways that it hard to decide what to pick out. Ignoring the various insults on how everybody who does not follow your version of Islam is stupid....

The name "Gabriel" which it seems Arabs cannot pronounce correctly means "God is my strength". And this is not relevant to anything here. Did Mohammed even know that?

And what if anything God revealed to others does not prove that Mohammed is a "messenger", specially not when most of what he passes off as "revelations" are proven rip-offs, and when the little he does teach contradict the teachings of those he himself claims "went before" him.
No one is justified in criticising any book let alone book of God unless one has first and foremost understood it properly.
What you mean nobody is allowed to say anything you disapprove of, no matter if it is true or not. It is you who has failed to understand the Qur'an and Mohammed. The first mistake you made is to suggest it is "of God".

113:1 Say: I seek refuge with the Lord of the Dawn
113:2 From the mischief of created things;
113:3 From the mischief of Darkness as it overspreads;
113:4 From the mischief of those who practise secret arts;
113:5 And from the mischief of the envious one as he practises envy.

Do you know who the "Lord of the Dawn" is? It is a title for the bearer of light, Lucifer, the fallen angel, the devil, Iblis, Satan. So you are seeking refuge with Satan.....

Mischief of Created things? So a stone plans to trip you up perhaps? So Allah creates things to cause mischief?
"Darkness" is a lack of light. It is a condition incapable of causing mischief. Darkness, i.e. the night, also does not spread like some blanket.
"sacret arts" .... right, be honest Mughal, do you believe in witchcraft?
the "envious" practices envy.... Well, a cook cooks, a lover loves, so what do you expect an "envious" person to do? Press flowers?
Tafsir tells us what this is about:
And from the evil of the envier when he envieth) this refers to Labid Ibn al-A'sam, the Jew, who was envious of the Prophet (pbuh) and used black magic to separate him from 'A'ishah'.
A wicked Jew, what else, who tried to bewitch Mohammed.

word of God? seriously?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

frankie
Posts: 2612
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: Where have the muslims gone?

Post by frankie »

Mughal


The verses you quote from the Quran prove conclusively your faith is driven not by any conciliatory God,but from the exact opposite, that is the adversary of the God of the Bible,who is named as Satan.
The very Surah 113 named as Al Falaq translates to dawn/daybreak, with "the lord of the dawn" given as Lucifer/Satan who works in opposition to YHWH the Bible God.

Manfred points this out very clearly,with his concise appraisal of Surah 113, which is an invocation to the Islamic god Allah,who is nothing more than a pagan entity worshiped by the pagan Arabs at the time Mohammed lived.

The pagan Arabs were animists who worshiped stars and planets,one of which was Venus the "morning star" these pagan Arabs offered invocations to these alleged spirit filled entities they believed would help them in times of want and war.

Mohammed was brought up in this environment of superstition,which has found its way into his alleged revelations,which you and all Muslims believe to be from the same God who gave revelations to the Bible prophets,but on further inspection is nothing more than re packaged pre Islamic paganism made to appear of Abrahamic origin.

How ironic then that Abraham was led away from such pagan practices to follow the God of the Bible who teaches against they very things Muslims practice today,just as their pagan driven prophet did before them.

https://archive.org/stream/KitabAlAsnam/Allat_djvu.txt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“We have been told that the Apostle of God once
mentioned al-Uzza saying, "I have offered a white sheep to al-'Uzza, while I was a follower of the religion of my people."
The Quraysh were wont to circumambulate the Ka'bah and say:

"By Allat and al-'Uzza,
And Manah, the third idol besides.
Verily they are the most exalted females[15]
Whose intercession is to be sought[16]."

These were also called "the Daughters of Allah[17]," and were supposed to intercede before God. When the Apostle of God was sent, God revealed unto him [concerning them] the following:

Have you seen Allat and al-'Uzza, and Manah the third
idol besides? What? Shall ye have male progeny and
God female? This indeed were an unfair partition! These
are mere names: ye and your fathers named them thus:
God hath not sent down any warranty in their regard[18]."



http://www.thaliatook.com/AMGG/arabtriple.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The Goddesses Al-Uzza, Al-Lat and Menat formed a triad in pre-Islamic Arabia. They were widely worshipped: from Nabatean Petra in the North to the legendary Kingdoms of Arabia Felix in the South, including Saba, the Biblical Sheba; as far east as Iran and Palmyra; and the three of them were very popular Goddesses in Mecca at the time of Mohammed. From left they are: Al-Uzza, whose name means "The Mighty One", the Goddess of the Morning Star; Al-Lat, the Mother, whose name means simply "The Goddess", as Al-Lah simply means "The God"; and Manat, Crone-goddess of Fate or Time. Sometimes the three of them are referred to as the daughters of Al-Lah; sometimes Manat and Al-Lat are considered daughters of Al-Uzza.......

Al-Uzza, "the Strong One", was one of the most venerated Arab Deities, and the Goddess of the morning and evening star, Venus. She had a temple at Petra (though which one that was has not been determined), and may well have been the patron Goddess of that city. Isaac of Antioch (a writer of the 5th century CE) calls Her Beltis ("Lady", a title shared by many other Semitic Goddesses), and Kaukabta, "the Star". He also says that women would invoke Al-Uzza from the rooftops, a form of worship appropriate to a Star Goddess......

User avatar
pr126
Posts: 5427
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:24 am
Location: Blighty

Re: Where have the muslims gone?

Post by pr126 »

The Satanic Verses by Salman Rushdie describes this and the Muslims want his head on the spike for revealing the pagan origins of Islam.
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.

User avatar
Hombre
Posts: 3741
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:18 am

Re: Where have the muslims gone?

Post by Hombre »

Mughal wrote:I think you are wrong here dear hombre, the reason is anyone can claim anything from God but does it prove to be from God? If it does then that person is telling the truth. Anyone who declares such a person mad is himself insane.

regards and all the best.
Yes, I do agree with your thesis "anyone can claim anything from God but does it prove to be from God? ". Muhammad seems to fit perfectly in that realm - wouldn't you agree that (as you state) Muhammad may have also been "mad & insane" ?

User avatar
Hombre
Posts: 3741
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:18 am

Re: Where have the muslims gone?

Post by Hombre »

Mughal wrote:[ Don't look at the quran in context of your own background or you will become entrapped by your mindset you may have which will stop you from discovering or learning the actual message in the quran. The best thing is to look at your own existing way of life where you have come from and look at the way of life the quran proposes and see the difference. Don't look at the way life of other people who do not belong to your society and judge the quran on that basis because any way of life of any people is not the way of life the quran proposes.
regards and all the best.
Since Muslims dismiss the HB & NT - both precede your Quran, we also can demand of you to look at our holly books exact same manner as you ask us to look at your Quran.

Otherwise, you just re-enforce my original comment that - you are here not to exchange polemic & ideas between Judea-Christianity & that of Islam.

You try to convince us to believe that a book (Quran) in which 70% of its content is copied (rather poorly) or plagiarized from earlier books (HB & NT) written 3400 & 2000 years ago - somehow your 1400 year old Quran is more authentic containing the truth & world of God then the HB & NT. Even Allah would admonish you for making no sense.

sum
Posts: 6623
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: Where have the muslims gone?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

Your post -
Your quote -
I think you are wrong here dear hombre, the reason is anyone can claim anything from God but does it prove to be from God?

sum
Muhammad claimed to receive revelations from god via Gabriel. As you say, does this prove that the revelations were from god?

Was Muhammad deluded or lying?

sum


Please tell me if Muhammad was deluded or lying. Muhammad claimed that these "revelations" came to him via Gabriel. Does this claim prove that these "revelations" were from a god?

sum

User avatar
SAM
Posts: 4353
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:31 pm
Location: Arasy

Re: Where have the muslims gone?

Post by SAM »

Hombre wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:28 pm
SAM Wrote:
You are right Paul Tarsus, a Jew who heard the voices of Satan's higher authority and then fooled the illiterate Gentiles. :lol:
You think you can post rubbish & lock the thread you can get away with it - You don't.

I didn't lock it. manfred did it. Many of my answers to other forumers were removed by manfred even though they weren't addressed to him. :yuk:
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: Where have the muslims gone?

Post by manfred »

The thread is not and never was locked. And you are well aware what gets removed. If you want your posts to stay use the manners your mum taught you.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

User avatar
Ariel
Posts: 7765
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:34 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Where have the muslims gone?

Post by Ariel »

SAM wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:26 am

I didn't lock it. manfred did it. Many of my answers to other forumers were removed by manfred even though they weren't addressed to him. :yuk:
Hi SAM. I have missed you. How are you ? Are you still healty. ? No corona problems? Keep us posted, and you should not leave us for such a long time.

We are worried if you do.
The heart of the wise inclines to the right,
but the heart of the fool to the left.

User avatar
SAM
Posts: 4353
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:31 pm
Location: Arasy

Re: Where have the muslims gone?

Post by SAM »

Ariel wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:01 am
SAM wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:26 am

I didn't lock it. manfred did it. Many of my answers to other forumers were removed by manfred even though they weren't addressed to him. :yuk:
Hi SAM. I have missed you. How are you ? Are you still healty. ? No corona problems? Keep us posted, and you should not leave us for such a long time.

We are worried if you do.
I am fine and still healthy... Darling.. Covid will not infect me without Allah's approval. I stop FFi because manfred likes to delete answers that aren't for him.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: Where have the muslims gone?

Post by manfred »

manfred likes to delete answers that aren't for him.
No, he loathes deleting things. But he will remove personal insults, no matter who they are addressed to, and stuff about Jews eating babies and such. I don't like to be your personal janitor, but I clean things up if I have to. I much prefer you posting like others do, including other Muslims.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

User avatar
Hombre
Posts: 3741
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:18 am

Re: Where have the muslims gone?

Post by Hombre »

SAM wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:41 am
I am fine and still healthy... Darling.. Covid will not infect me without Allah's approval. I stop FFi because manfred likes to delete answers that aren't for him.
SAM the mantra here is DON'T DO TO OTHERS WHAT YOURSELF DO NOT LIKE DONE TO YOU.

Otherwise you can bet your Hookah (Nargillah) that deadly viruses do not distinguish between neither Allah, nor God to spare you from others.

User avatar
pr126
Posts: 5427
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:24 am
Location: Blighty

Re: Where have the muslims gone?

Post by pr126 »

Quran 64:11

No disaster strikes except by permission of Allah. And whoever believes in Allah - He will guide his heart. And Allah is Knowing of all things

Covid-19 is spread by Allah's permission. Also, he keeps Muslims safe from infection.
Mashallah.
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.

User avatar
SAM
Posts: 4353
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:31 pm
Location: Arasy

Re: Where have the muslims gone?

Post by SAM »

Hombre wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:53 am
SAM the mantra here is DON'T DO TO OTHERS WHAT YOURSELF DO NOT LIKE DONE TO YOU.
There are no golden rules here. :nono1:
Otherwise you can bet your Hookah (Nargillah) that deadly viruses do not distinguish between neither Allah, nor God to spare you from others.
Do not be stupid. You think the virus is blindly infecting whomever they want.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: Where have the muslims gone?

Post by manfred »

There are no golden rules here.
Yes there is.
You think the virus is blindly infecting whomever they want.
Oh, a virus with a mind to make decisions?

Tell us more....
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Post Reply