questions for eagle about Abraham

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

questions for eagle about Abraham

Post by manfred »

Let's assume for the sake of this thread that the Qur'an is the first and most authoritative text in Islam. (I know, not quite right, but we have to start somewhere)

Then I have a few questions for eagle, having read his recent comments on Abraham and Mecca....

Can you show from the Quran alone where Ishmael settled? Can you produce one single verse from the Quran stating that he settled in Mecca?

Can you even find a single verse where Becca is said to be an alternate name for Mecca? And, if it is claimed that the first house of worship is the Kabaah in Mecca, can you please produce a single Quranic verse explicitly stating this?

Can you show where the qibla is pointing to from the Quran itself?

What is the location of the sacred mosque, and can you produce a single verse stating that the sacred mosque is located there?

Thank you.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: questions for eagle about Abraham

Post by Eagle »

On a general note, the Quran is not a dry storytelling and genealogy book as in most of the Bible where one can easily and quickly lose track of names, places and other details. These little details, if omitted wouldn't make humanity miss out on anything in terms of guidance, and in fact confuse the reader and distract his attention to trivial matters. The Quran is not a historical record or dry, impartial document: it is argumentative and impactful to get people to believe and actively reform themselves and their environement. Its powerful statements are in an intellectual, spiritual and emotional language that every culture accross time and space can appreciate. The Quran's objective isnt story telling, but "message telling" and maximizing its audience's attention to the precept(s) of the story. Muslims will not be asked on the Day of Judgment the details of the people of the cave or how Noah's flood occured, how many generations passed between a person and another, the names in a genealogy or whether they memorized the names of people in the Quran. They will be questioned as to how they responded to the lessons from the different incidents and stories related in the Quran. Thus to focus on the message, the Quran injects the passage of a well-known story, whenever the larger context a sura requires it. And when it does so, it only puts the details of that story that are relevant to that specific context.

Also, The Quran does not always mention something that is clear from the text and is well known in the society. It is a clear pattern in its storytelling method and one of the aspects of its eloquence.

Direction of the qibla is masjid al haram 2:144. Only one location is said to be dedicated to those performing the ritual prayers, as well as the pilgrimage and it is the Kaaba, Becca, the Ancient House and al masjid al haram, all names referring to one same place with the definite article and with almost identical wording 2:125,158,196,3:96-7,9:19,22:26,29, all connecting the Abrahamic legacy to one and the same place. This unquestionably links the Kaaba, Becca, Mecca with some of the most important rituals of Islam.

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: questions for eagle about Abraham

Post by manfred »

Eagle, save yourself the slight of hand. What in effect you are saying that ALL of these things are ideas not found in the Qur'an. They are later ideas and Muslims did what you do with the bible: raked around it to find the thing they want the text to say.
2:144 is about the CHANGE of the qibla. The new qubla is something called the sacred mosque, and the location of this thing is not mentioned. There is nothing in the Qur;an suggesting that Becca is Mecca, nor what the "ancient house" is.

You can use conjecture, one of the words you like a lot, to suggest that certain things mean this or that in the Quran, but that is all you have.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: questions for eagle about Abraham

Post by Eagle »

All of the information mentioned in the OP must be in one verse or passage?

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: questions for eagle about Abraham

Post by manfred »

No, a verse for each question perhaps...
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: questions for eagle about Abraham

Post by Eagle »

Why would that response format constitute a more valid answer than the precise one given prior?

And of course 2:144 is about qibla change. The last one, facing AL masjid alharam, with a definite article, the same one spoken of in the previous references. Or do you mean that in every verse the Quran should repeat all related information scattered throughout the book?

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: questions for eagle about Abraham

Post by manfred »

eagle... you seem to confuse INTERPRETATION with statements in the qur'an. If you look at text Qur'an ALONE, none of my questions can be answered. Only if you all to text the interpretations you speak of you get the picture you paint. In the end that is nothing but conjecture.

So what is "Mecca" and the "sacred mosque" actually based on?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: questions for eagle about Abraham

Post by manfred »

There is something else odd, if you look at the account in surah 2, which you interprete to be about the Kaaba, the one in Mecca, even though that is not cleartly stated.
AFTER Abraham and Ishmael build the Kaaba, as we read in 2:128, they ask Allah to make them Muslims.

So what were Abraham and Ishmael before and during the alleged building?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: questions for eagle about Abraham

Post by Eagle »

manfred wrote:eagle... you seem to confuse INTERPRETATION with statements in the qur'an. If you look at text Qur'an ALONE, none of my questions can be answered. Only if you all to text the interpretations you speak of you get the picture you paint. In the end that is nothing but conjecture.

So what is "Mecca" and the "sacred mosque" actually based on?
There is no confusion. The requirement that a particular Quranic statement needs to be fully detailed in each context is unnecessary. Any type of literary research, especially historical, is done by piecing together related information. Conjecture is stripping statements out of their direct and larger context and ignoring surrounding indicators, then drawing clumsy conclusions à la "takeiteasynow".

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: questions for eagle about Abraham

Post by manfred »

eagle, where does it say that the sacred mosque is the Kaaba in Mecca? If it does not, then you are interpreting.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: questions for eagle about Abraham

Post by Eagle »

Calling the one and only masjid al haram as the place of specific pilgrimage and rites, then speaking of the same rites as occurring in the one and only Kaaba, means it is the same location. This is basic historical researching. What you and those with you are doing is conjecturing in the dark.

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: questions for eagle about Abraham

Post by manfred »

No eagle, we both know that there were more than one "Kaabas" in pre-Islamic Arabia, and even elsewhere. You are accusing me of conjecturing, when it is you who is doing that. Nothing in the Qur'an uniquely identifies the masjid al haram. In fact there is evidence from the earliest mosques that had a different qibla, which suggests that Macca has not always been the centre of the Islamic universe.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: questions for eagle about Abraham

Post by Eagle »

Of course there were many kaabas. But only one was revered by all of Arabia and the Quran refers to a specific one with a definite article as well as associates the same rites with it as it does with masjid al haram and the Abrahamic legacy.

There is zero evidence of any mosque purposefully facing anything else than the Kaaba

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: questions for eagle about Abraham

Post by manfred »

"All Arabia"? eagle, you need to try and sort out facts and propaganda.

Your are paraphrasing Diodorus Siculus....

The "all Arabs" clearly is an over-generalisation, and the geography does not fit Mecca. His description is a coastal one, near a bay, in the North West of Arabia.

The first mosques point at Petra. That is too much of a difference to be a coincidence, specially if there is more than one.
We do not have any evidence about Mecca as a cult centre before Islam at all. If the Qur'an uses a definite article it may mean a specific Kaaba, but it does not say which or where it is.

The history of Islam as told by Muslims has been revised. Several times. The "Abrahamic legacy" is a very late addendum to Islam, probably not even from Mohammed, but added after his death, as the evidence of John of Damascus shows. There was not even a Qur'an until the eighth century.

If you claim a connection to Abraham, you should first ask why the Kaaba and Mecca is completely absent from any biblical texts.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

User avatar
SAM
Posts: 4317
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:31 pm
Location: Arasy

Re: questions for eagle about Abraham

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:If you claim a connection to Abraham, you should first ask why the Kaaba and Mecca is completely absent from any biblical texts.
Many things do not need to be mentioned in the Quran as they are already remembered according to Ishmael's posterity. But a Muslim can know the truth of Kaaba and others through knowledge hidden in the Quran through spiritual science.

The Kaaba which was built by Abraham and his son Ishmael, had symbolic significance, especially circumambulating.

The Kaabah is the center of all the centers of the universe. No matter if they are unbelievers or Muslims, they will still go through it either while living in the world or on the verge of death.

As I said, Islam is a spiritual and mystical religion.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: questions for eagle about Abraham

Post by manfred »

SAM wrote:
manfred wrote:If you claim a connection to Abraham, you should first ask why the Kaaba and Mecca is completely absent from any biblical texts.
Many things do not need to be mentioned in the Quran as they are already remembered according to Ishmael's posterity. But a Muslim can know the truth of Kaaba and others through knowledge hidden in the Quran through spiritual science.

The Kaaba which was built by Abraham and his son Ishmael, had symbolic significance, especially circumambulating.

The Kaabah is the center of all the centers of the universe. No matter if they are unbelievers or Muslims, they will still go through it either while living in the world or on the verge of death.

As I said, Islam is a spiritual and mystical religion.
SAM, Islam is many things to many people.

Let's just say that you BELIEVE a tall story. That is fine. I happen to know for sure it is not true. I But if you prefer your story... what can I say? You are like a kid who insists there is a father Christmas and a tooth fairy. The only thing, SAM, at your age you should know better.

BTW, do you know where the rite of circumambulating the Kaaba 7 times originates? Please look it up... you will be surprised.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

User avatar
SAM
Posts: 4317
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:31 pm
Location: Arasy

Re: questions for eagle about Abraham

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:BTW, do you know where the rite of circumambulating the Kaaba 7 times originates? Please look it up... you will be surprised.
Don't tell me it's Shiva's temple :roflmao:
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: questions for eagle about Abraham

Post by manfred »

Why don't you check? Afraid? Whenever the smiles come out you are worried about something. I will not tell you. I prefer you look it up yourself.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

User avatar
SAM
Posts: 4317
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:31 pm
Location: Arasy

Re: questions for eagle about Abraham

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:Why don't you check? Afraid? Whenever the smiles come out you are worried about something. I will not tell you. I prefer you look it up yourself.
Afraid..... :lotpot: You won't tell me because you're afraid of being laughed at by me. :roflmao:
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: questions for eagle about Abraham

Post by manfred »

SAM, laugh all you like. We are at level 2 smilies already? Afraid of google?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Post Reply