In search for the historical Mohammed

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
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Takeiteasynow
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Re: In search for the historical Mohammed

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Well early Ummayad coins may tell us more then you think. Don't they propagate a clear message that rejects polytheism and promotes the oneness of God? It's obvious a statement against the trinity doctrine of the Byzantine Church. Much secondary literature from the 5th and 6th century and different nominations, express their issues with this doctrine which is not yet a common belief among most Christians in the Levant. This statement is what the early Semitic state in the Levant unites which leads to the secular form of government in the Umayyad period. Then the lack of evidence for a new formalized religion continues until the end of the 8th century but, as you say, indicates a slow transformation.
In short, of we want to find out about Islam before about 690, we do not have a lot to go on.
Not if you hypothesize that Islam is a formalized form of Messianic Judaism carried by the Nabataeans throughout the centuries.
Last edited by Takeiteasynow on Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Theological: Mahmud from Najran Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

Eagle
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Re: In search for the historical Mohammed

Post by Eagle »

manfred wrote:This is the big problem with establishing much around early Islam. We have little to go on from in terms of early sources, and archaeology is scant too. What we can be fairly sure of though is that much of "established" history of early Islam is based of naive acceptance of very late sources. By then the "plain warner" has morphed in the the Mohammed of the night journey and of splitting the moon. If such tales are told right alongside of his more mundane exploits,then all of these sources become suspicious. There may be some aspects of the sirah and the hadith that are accurate, but who is to tell which is which? The "method" of the "ithnad" is also not helpful, as that too can be made up.

If the narrative of Mohammed underwent significant evolution, and there is scant regard for accuracy in telling his story, then it should be obvious that much else was also altered or even invented to suit later rulers, not just Mohammed's life and words.

So we are stuck with a few fragment from non-Muslim texts and a few coins. But that is not totally useless. We have enough detail to see clearly that the narrative has changed.

The coins also tell an interesting story.... first, the earliest are some 60 years after Mohammed's death. That is odd in itself. Normally any rule uses coins to establish his presence and demonstrate his rule. Then they look remarkably like Byzantine coins at first, with cross designs removed, and only gradually became distinct.


In short, of we want to find out about Islam before about 690, we do not have a lot to go on.

The science of isnad far surpasses in objectivity and rigorousness any method used by those calling a book like the Bible "God's word"

Invading rulers almost always used existing coins but slightly modified them so as to ascertain the new authority over the previous one. Progressively, they would mint their own.

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manfred
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Re: In search for the historical Mohammed

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The science of isnad far surpasses in objectivity and rigorousness any method used by those calling a book like the Bible "God's word"
"isnad" is a "science"? :lotpot: So we get a text, written 200 years after the event, claiming that so and so and such and such a man, all long dead and cannot argue, said that someone else said this or that. Worse, the writer never met the people making or supposedly making the claim. eagle, that really is very funny.
Invading rulers almost always used existing coins but slightly modified them so as to ascertain the new authority over the previous one. Progressively, they would mint their own.
Not really eagle, most new rulers would be eager to establish themselves... coins are part of that. They do not wait generations.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Eagle
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Re: In search for the historical Mohammed

Post by Eagle »

You mean history stopped existing prior to be written down?

And of course that rulers have minted above previous coins. This is undisputed among scholarly cycles and for the reasons mentioned

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manfred
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Re: In search for the historical Mohammed

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No, I merely pointed out the serious flaw with hadith reliability. Eagle the first Muslim coins date from 694, and are identical with Byzantine ones, complete with emperor and sons, but with the cross removed.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: In search for the historical Mohammed

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And were minted in Tiberias - the location is telling too.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Theological: Mahmud from Najran Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

Eagle
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Re: In search for the historical Mohammed

Post by Eagle »

manfred wrote:No, I merely pointed out the serious flaw with hadith reliability.
No you have simply dismissed without proof. What is that serious flaw you have shown
manfred wrote:Eagle the first Muslim coins date from 694, and are identical with Byzantine ones, complete with emperor and sons, but with the cross removed.
This is false. Among recent archeological finds are Muslim coins dating to 35AH or 655CE

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manfred
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Re: In search for the historical Mohammed

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Oh, I am sure you have evidence for that?
No you have simply dismissed without proof. What is that serious flaw you have shown
1) the date
2) collection
3) hearsay of hearsay.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: In search for the historical Mohammed

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The concept 'arab' - another misnomer - originates in Syria and was never used south of Petra. If you look at Hismaic or Dadainatic (scripts) for instance the Semitic root rb was only used for verbs like raba (to stun) grb (to depart), hrb (to flee).
Of course. It's like naming all Mexicans and Canadians US citizens to sell a new fake history.

Under Abbasid rule the Thamuduc tradition is merged with the Arab one. It's the ultimate misnomer among scholars - calling everything 'Arab' whilst the tribes from southern Jordan an the northern Hijaz had a separate tradition and (associated) religion. Makes it easy to classify obervations from early historians, to bind these with locations and group events in different categories.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Theological: Mahmud from Najran Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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manfred
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Re: In search for the historical Mohammed

Post by manfred »

The Qur'an also gives some quite unexpected clues;
But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in what was sent down to Muhammad - for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their sins and improve their condition.
This is from surah 47, verse 2.

Today the surah is called "Mohammed" but it was known before as the surah of fighting. It has been split off the previous one and made into a new chapter.

Now, "Mohammed" means "the blessed one" and it is a translator decision to place the name Mohammed here. So let's put the alternative:
But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in what was sent down to the blessed one - for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their sins and improve their condition.
Now you notice something quite striking.... It is NOT Islamic doctrine that Mohammed removes sins. Which religious figure is normally associated with salvation and the forgiveness of sins? Well, that would be Jesus...

So indirectly the QUr'an supports John of Damascus's assertion that Islam is a Christian "heresy". The "original" Mohammed was Jesus, it seems. He morphed into something else only some time later.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: In search for the historical Mohammed

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The concept 'arab' - another misnomer - originates in Syria and was never used south of Petra. If you look at Hismaic or Dadainatic (scripts) for instance the Semitic root rb was only used for verbs like raba (to stun) grb (to depart), hrb (to flee).
.

A final note: this hypothesis can be verified with contemporary accounts. The findings of Ptolemaeus (Aramava-Geogr. 6.7.27) and Eusebius match with the linguistical evidence and epigraphical records. Ptolemaeus defines Arabia Petraea, Felix and Deserta with Arabia Felix matching southern Jordan, lying east of the modern Gulf of Aqaba, south of its terminus at Elath (Elana, Aqaba). Then Eusebius places Midian beyond Arabia to the south in the desert of the Saracens, east of the Red sea and here we can't find any references to an Arab identity. Yet the Assyrian, Roman and Byzantinerecords tell us who live here: the Thamudai.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Theological: Mahmud from Najran Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: In search for the historical Mohammed

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Manfred wrote:So indirectly the QUr'an supports John of Damascus's assertion that Islam is a Christian "heresy". The "original" Mohammed was Jesus, it seems. He morphed into something else only some time later.
I propose a fusion between southern Thamudic syncretic Samarian Yahwism and a northern Arab Judo-Christian branch. Perhaps the 'original' theological Muhammad identified with Jesus - but to prove that you need more evidence. That's basically the Nazirite component who resided just east of Damascus - the perfect spot to exert some influence on the early Ummayad government.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Theological: Mahmud from Najran Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: In search for the historical Mohammed

Post by Takeiteasynow »

It's briefly mentioned before but I never heared of the Menorah coin...

Image
These menorah coins bear the Shahada Arabic inscription on one side: ‘There is no god but Allah,’ while the menorah appears in the center of the coin. The other side bears the inscription: ‘Muhammad is the messenger of God.’

Minted at the beginning of the Ummayad era, these appear at the same time as 'cross coins' where the Shahada is inscribed besides Christian symbols and Jesus.

Image

These differences in design are not difficult to explain: before the rule of Abdel Malik there was no centralized fiscal or monetary system so local authorities could issue coins. What intrigues is that these different coins are found at Jerusalem which implies multiple (religious) authorities at a single site; some kind of alliance that works together. Why? Well it seems that the entire Middle East is busy constructing the third temple with only the rabbinical Jews in denial. :lotpot:
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Theological: Mahmud from Najran Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: In search for the historical Mohammed

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Seems that there are many more mysteries surrounding the historical Muhammad.

Early Muslim accounts describe the Dome of the Rock as the furthest mosque (Nuba Account) and is considered to be the Temple of Salomon and Arab pilgrims perform hajj rituals at Jerusalem until at least the 10th century AD. Now why would they want to do that?

The oasis of Tamya/Teman seems to play a central role in this story as its script is close to Hebrew. A proto-Hebrew migration from Sinai to the oasis of Tamya? The biggest rivals from Tamya were the 'Aronites/Harunites' from Dedan. This indicates another allegory born in the Thamudic heartlands...
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Theological: Mahmud from Najran Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Hombre
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Re: In search for the historical Mohammed

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Prof. Mordchai Kedar from Bar-Ilan University in Israel is a known scholar on Islamic studies. Here is his take on the meaning of the "further Mosque (alluding to Al Aqsa in Jerusalem)
Early Islamic sources state that the "al Aqsa Mosque" (literal meaning: 'the farther mosque'), mentioned only once in the Koran, was one of two mosques located near Ji'irrana, a village located between Mecca and Taaf in the Arabian Peninsula (now Saudi Arabia.) One of the mosques was called "al-Masjid al-Adna," meaning the "closer mosque" and the other " al-Masjid al-Aqsa", the "farther mosque." When the Koran refers to the al Aqsa mosque while telling the myth of the Prophet Muhammad's night time journey from the "holy mosque" of Mecca to al Aqsa, that is, the "farther mosque," it is referring to the mosque in Ji'irrana.

In 682 C.E., fifty years after Mohammed's death, Abd allah Ibn al-Zubayr, the tough man of Mecca, rebelled against the Umayyads who ruled Damascus and would not allow them to fulfill the Haj in Mecca. Since the Haj pilgrimage is one of the five basic Islamic commandments, they were forced to choose Jerusalem as their alternative for a pilgrimage site. In order to justify choosing Jerusalem, the Umayyads rewrote the story told in the Koran, moving the al Aqsa mosque to Jerusalem, and adding, for good measure, the myth of the night time journey of Mohammed to al Aqsa. This is the reason the Sunnis now consider Jerusalem their third holiest city.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/Arti ... aspx/19315" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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manfred
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Re: In search for the historical Mohammed

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Thank you hombre I like that man, he is a very thorough scholar.

I also wan to add another thing, to do with Israel: the dome of the rock.
That has a number of very interesting inscriptions.

I look at just 2:
In the name of Allah, the compassionate, the Merciful (from surah 1)
There is no God but Allah alone
He has no associate

Say He is Allah, one” Allah indivisible.
He does not beget nor was he begotten and no one is equal in rank with him (from surah 112)
Mohammed is the messenger of Allah. (from surah 48)
This from the Qur'an, somewhat mixed up, I added the references, but the part in red is not in the Qur'an in that form, not together like that. If by the time the dome of the rock was built we had a fixed Qu'an, nobody would dare to quote random pieces from it with other words inserted. And yet that is what we have here.

BTW.... the last part could also say "Blessed is the messenger of Allah", and both thranslations are valid.


The other one is even more telling:
Allah! Incline unto your messenger and servant Jesus of Mary.
And let peace be upon him the day he was born and the day he dies, and the day he shall be raised alive.
The first part is not in the quran. But it is seamlessly connecting to 19:15 which is the verse straight after.

BUT... there is a big problem:

The Quran verse 19:15 is about John the baptist: This is what we read before that in the quran:
So Zakariya came out to his people from him chamber: He told them by signs to celebrate Allah's praises in the morning and in the evening.
(To his son came the command): "O Yahya! take hold of the Book with might": and We gave him Wisdom even as a youth,
And piety (for all creatures) as from Us, and purity: He was devout,
And kind to his parents, and he was not overbearing or rebellious.
The part quoted on the wall of the dome of the rock is about Jesus, but the Qur'an has a disjointed connection, that does not really work:
And kind to his parents, and he was not overbearing or rebellious. And let peace be upon him the day he was born and the day he dies, and the day he shall be raised alive.
This clearly suggests that the Qur'an has been edited. References to Jesus have become a reference to John the Baptist.

So, again, we can conclude that at the time the dome of the rock was built Islam was still fluid, and closer to Christianity than it is now.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: In search for the historical Mohammed

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Hombre wrote:In 682 C.E., fifty years after Mohammed's death, Abd allah Ibn al-Zubayr, the tough man of Mecca, rebelled against the Umayyads who ruled Damascus and would not allow them to fulfill the Haj in Mecca. Since the Haj pilgrimage is one of the five basic Islamic commandments, they were forced to choose Jerusalem as their alternative for a pilgrimage site. In order to justify choosing Jerusalem...
It's an interesting theory but entirely historiographical. It has a major problem: why would 'Arab' pilgrims continue with Hajj-rituals (counter clockwise circumambulation) at Jerusalem for another 300 years? Was Mecca not ready yet to receive all those pilgrims?
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Theological: Mahmud from Najran Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: In search for the historical Mohammed

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There is probably a simpler solution: the Hajj-ritual of counter clockwise circumambulation is towards the morning star. Now who is the god of the morning star? It's Salem/Shalim.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Theological: Mahmud from Najran Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Hombre
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Re: In search for the historical Mohammed

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manfred
I admire Prof Kedar & have met him while attending few of his fascinating lectures. He is one of my most credible sources on Islam. From him I learned Jews heavy influence on Islam. People like Ka'ab - a Jew who fled Yemen to Mekkah. He lived in Muhammad 's grandfather house & said to have taught Muhammad all about Judaism. It than explains the heavy influence of the Hebrew Bible (and later NT) on Muhammad's doctrine forming Islam.

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Hombre
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Re: In search for the historical Mohammed

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Takeiteasynow wrote:It's an interesting theory but entirely historiographical. It has a major problem: why would 'Arab' pilgrims continue with Hajj-rituals (counter clockwise circumambulation) at Jerusalem for another 300 years? Was Mecca not ready yet to receive all those pilgrims?
No it was not - because Adam & Abraham were still busy building the Ka'aba. They had to wait for the cranes to arrive from Australia to lift the black stone into its position where it is now located. :lotpot: As for the reason for the counter-clock movement. Who knows perhaps they think it increases the testosterone & appetite to make babies.
(Just don't go there with me on the topic of the ka'abah)

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