creation in the Qur'an

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
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manfred
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creation in the Qur'an

Post by manfred »

One of the creation accounts in the Qur’an… form Qur’an 41 Remember, this is an accurate historical account given by an all-knowing eternal being who was of course present during all of this.....
Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
So the earth was created in two days. (?) And note the veiled threat, in case you have any doubts. It becomes explicit at the end, in case you missed it the first time. It is the kind of twisted logic found frequently in the Qur’an, what I call a “clear proof” passage…. Point at something all can see, (here, the earth) and deduce something from it that does not follow (as “Allah” made it), but do not provide a reasoned argument about the thesis presented, instead threaten those who doubt what you say with hell fire.
He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance)
So FIRST the earth and THEN things on it. And the no sun yet….
Are you adding it up? 6 days so far.
Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
AFTER the earth, the sky is made, and it is kind of alive and can talk. So does it hurt when a plane flies through it? Still no sun….
So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.
Ah, finally… lights on the “lower heavens”…. “with guards”(?) lampshades? Or is there someone lurking trying to steal the sun and stars?
Note that FIRST the earth was created and THEN the stars….
This is repeated twice in the Qur’an, also here:
He it is Who hath created for you all that is on earth. Then He turned to the heaven, and made them into seven heavens. 2:29
And the stars kind of are attached to the “lower heavens” where they run “each on their tracks” as we read elsewhere.
Now we have eight days in total, but elsewhere in the Qur’an we have 6 days, as here for example:
Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days,…. Qur’an 7:54
There have been all kinds of fanciful explanations offered for this muddle… except of course for the obvious: It is an internal error.
But if they turn away, say thou: "I have warned you of a stunning Punishment (as of thunder and lightning) like that which (overtook) the 'Ad and the Thamud!"
And here we have the second half of the “clear proof”: Accept it or else…. Appealing to superstitions and fear.
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SAM
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by SAM »

Time or day does not exist before creation and during creation. Time and day exist after the universe is created.

First of all you need to know where God was before He created the universe. Secondly, Angel and Iblis exist before the universe was created. Where were they before creation?

Kafir like you do not have the ability to know things that are unseen.

But they have no knowledge therein. They follow nothing but conjecture; and conjecture avails nothing against Truth. [53:28]

They have no knowledge about this. It is only their guesswork. [45:24]
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
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sum
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by sum »

Hello SAM

Your quote -
Time or day does not exist before creation and during creation. Time and day exist after the universe is created.

I presume that you are telling Allah this and not the non-muslims? It was Allah who allegedly said this but it appears that he was a little short of understanding. I am impressed that you are wiser than Allah!

Another reason for showing that the Koran was not from an all-knowing and all-wise god but from an ignorant man - Muhammad.

sum

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Time or day does not exist before creation and during creation. Time and day exist after the universe is created.
There is no evidence that the universe was ever created. All than can be taken into consideration is that a possible Big Bang relates to the observable universe - which may be nothing more than a local event in an infinitive universe without beginning or ending. Something you can call eternity.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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SAM
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by SAM »

Takeiteasynow wrote:
Time or day does not exist before creation and during creation. Time and day exist after the universe is created.
There is no evidence that the universe was ever created. All than can be taken into consideration is that a possible Big Bang relates to the observable universe - which may be nothing more than a local event in an infinitive universe without beginning or ending. Something you can call eternity.
The universe is not the first thing created by God. There are other events that occurred before the universe.

And the big bang is just a conjecture and theoretical scientist alone.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by Fernando »

It's no good SAM, invoking the Big Bang to support Islam. As you say, what happened before it is unknowable at the present. So any "information" regarding that period needs to come from a reliable post-bang source. Which you first have to prove exists and is reliable. (And not by simply producing a book that says it's reliable.)
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

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SAM
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by SAM »

Fernando wrote:It's no good SAM, invoking the Big Bang to support Islam. As you say, what happened before it is unknowable at the present. So any "information" regarding that period needs to come from a reliable post-bang source. Which you first have to prove exists and is reliable. (And not by simply producing a book that says it's reliable.)
Islam does not support the Big Bang theory, as I say it is only a conjecture, guesswork, imagination, illusion and theoretical scientists.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by Hombre »

SAM wrote:Time or day does not exist before creation and during creation. Time and day exist after the universe is created.
you waste your time reading the poor copy?.
Here is the original text from the Hebrew Bible - not the Quran.

Genesis Chapter 1 בְּרֵאשִׁית
א בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ. 1 ------------------ In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth.
ב וְהָאָרֶץ, הָיְתָה תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ, וְחֹשֶׁךְ, עַל-פְּנֵי תְהוֹם; וְרוּחַ אֱלֹהִים, מְרַחֶפֶת עַל-פְּנֵי הַמָּיִם. 2 ----------------Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters.
ג וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, יְהִי אוֹר; וַיְהִי-אוֹר. 3 -----------------------And God said: 'Let there be light.' And there was light.
ד וַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים אֶת-הָאוֹר, כִּי-טוֹב; וַיַּבְדֵּל אֱלֹהִים, בֵּין הָאוֹר וּבֵין הַחֹשֶׁךְ. 4------------------ And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
ה וַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים לָאוֹר יוֹם, וְלַחֹשֶׁךְ קָרָא לָיְלָה; וַיְהִי-עֶרֶב וַיְהִי-בֹקֶר, יוֹם אֶחָד. {פ} 5 --------------------And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. {P}
ו וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, יְהִי רָקִיעַ בְּתוֹךְ הַמָּיִם, וִיהִי מַבְדִּיל, בֵּין מַיִם לָמָיִם. 6 ----------------------And God said: 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.'
ז וַיַּעַשׂ אֱלֹהִים, אֶת-הָרָקִיעַ, וַיַּבְדֵּל בֵּין הַמַּיִם אֲשֶׁר מִתַּחַת לָרָקִיעַ, וּבֵין הַמַּיִם אֲשֶׁר מֵעַל לָרָקִיעַ; וַיְהִי-כֵן. 7 -------------------And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.
ח וַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים לָרָקִיעַ, שָׁמָיִם; וַיְהִי-עֶרֶב וַיְהִי-בֹקֶר, יוֹם שֵׁנִי. {פ} 8 ---------------------------And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. {P}
ט וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, יִקָּווּ הַמַּיִם מִתַּחַת הַשָּׁמַיִם אֶל-מָקוֹם אֶחָד, וְתֵרָאֶה, הַיַּבָּשָׁה; וַיְהִי-כֵן. 9 -----------------------And God said: 'Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear.' And it was so.
י וַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים לַיַּבָּשָׁה אֶרֶץ, וּלְמִקְוֵה הַמַּיִם קָרָא יַמִּים; וַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים, כִּי-טוֹב. 10 -----------------------And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters called He Seas; and God saw that it was good.
יא וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, תַּדְשֵׁא הָאָרֶץ דֶּשֶׁא עֵשֶׂב מַזְרִיעַ זֶרַע, עֵץ פְּרִי עֹשֶׂה פְּרִי לְמִינוֹ, אֲשֶׁר זַרְעוֹ-בוֹ עַל-הָאָרֶץ; וַיְהִי-כֵן. 11 ------------------------And God said: 'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.' And it was so.
יב וַתּוֹצֵא הָאָרֶץ דֶּשֶׁא עֵשֶׂב מַזְרִיעַ זֶרַע, לְמִינֵהוּ, וְעֵץ עֹשֶׂה-פְּרִי אֲשֶׁר זַרְעוֹ-בוֹ, לְמִינֵהוּ; וַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים, כִּי-טוֹב. 12 -----------------------And the earth brought forth grass, herb yielding seed after its kind, and tree bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
יג וַיְהִי-עֶרֶב וַיְהִי-בֹקֶר, יוֹם שְׁלִישִׁי. {פ} 13 -----------------------------And there was evening and there was morning, a third day. {P}
יד וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, יְהִי מְאֹרֹת בִּרְקִיעַ הַשָּׁמַיִם, לְהַבְדִּיל, בֵּין הַיּוֹם וּבֵין הַלָּיְלָה; וְהָיוּ לְאֹתֹת וּלְמוֹעֲדִים, וּלְיָמִים וְשָׁנִים. 14 --------------------------And God said: 'Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years;
טו וְהָיוּ לִמְאוֹרֹת בִּרְקִיעַ הַשָּׁמַיִם, לְהָאִיר עַל-הָאָרֶץ; וַיְהִי-כֵן. 15 -------------------and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.' And it was so.

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Hombre
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by Hombre »

SAM wrote:Islam does not support the Big Bang theory, as I say it is only a conjecture, guesswork, imagination, illusion and theoretical scientists.
Of course not. Because with 4 wives - each night Men in Arabia practice the big bang with their wives. Substance of theory.
Otherwise, the Big Bang theory was developed from scientific observations after the birth of Islam.

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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by manfred »

SAM explain to me if it makes sense to you, scientifically, I mean, that the could be an earth before there was a sun.....
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by manfred »

Now let's analyse SAM's response:
Time or day does not exist before creation and during creation. Time and day exist after the universe is created.
OK, why then mention days? And why suggest particular things take a certain number of days? What is a day without the one sun, our sun? So, was Allah telling lies then mentioning the days?
The universe is not the first thing created by God. There are other events that occurred before the universe.
What were these things in, if not in the universe?
First of all you need to know where God was before He created the universe.
I do not need to "first know" some random nonsense you devise. We are talking about a specific text. If there is some other text from the Qur;an which you think explains it better, bring it. God does not have a location, in any case.
Kafir like you do not have the ability to know things that are unseen.
I know about hot air...., specially Sam's hot air.
But they have no knowledge therein. They follow nothing but conjecture; and conjecture avails nothing against Truth. [53:28]
And someone who like you knows the "truth"? You do? You cannot even think straight. Why on earth would post a silly verse from a stupid book as "proof" for your statement? That is a very good indicator of ignorance.
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Takeiteasynow
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Takeiteasynow wrote:
Time or day does not exist before creation and during creation. Time and day exist after the universe is created.
There is no evidence that the universe was ever created. All than can be taken into consideration is that a possible Big Bang relates to the observable universe - which may be nothing more than a local event in an infinitive universe without beginning or ending. Something you can call eternity.
But according to some Dahwah Salafies the Big Bang was predicted by Surah Quran 21.30! OK, it's a flexible surah - could possibly also be used to explain the invention of cornflakes.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Small editorial error - so new try ...
SAM wrote:
Takeiteasynow wrote:
Time or day does not exist before creation and during creation. Time and day exist after the universe is created.
There is no evidence that the universe was ever created. All than can be taken into consideration is that a possible Big Bang relates to the observable universe - which may be nothing more than a local event in an infinitive universe without beginning or ending. Something you can call eternity.
The universe is not the first thing created by God. There are other events that occurred before the universe.

And the big bang is just a conjecture and theoretical scientist alone.
But according to some Dahwah Salafies the Big Bang was predicted by Surah Quran 21.30! OK, it's a flexible surah - could possibly also be used to explain the invention of cornflakes.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by Fernando »

Predicted? But it has Allah saying he did something. So that would mean the Koran was describing what happened after the instant of the Big Bang. Yet they claim it is timeless, and describes all happenings in advance. Oops, shurely shome mishtake, Mo.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

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SAM
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by SAM »

Takeiteasynow wrote:
Takeiteasynow wrote:
Time or day does not exist before creation and during creation. Time and day exist after the universe is created.
There is no evidence that the universe was ever created. All than can be taken into consideration is that a possible Big Bang relates to the observable universe - which may be nothing more than a local event in an infinitive universe without beginning or ending. Something you can call eternity.
But according to some Dahwah Salafies the Big Bang was predicted by Surah Quran 21.30! OK, it's a flexible surah - could possibly also be used to explain the invention of cornflakes.
Nice try..Surah 21:30 which means that the skies (heaven) and the earth already existed, before were separated..
Irrelevant to the big bang explosion incident.

Kafir big bang theory says that heaven and earth did not exist before the big bang explosion. An explosion that caused all stars, planets, sun, moon, etc. to form..

You should try again. :*)
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
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SAM
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by SAM »

Fernando wrote:Predicted? But it has Allah saying he did something. So that would mean the Koran was describing what happened after the instant of the Big Bang. Yet they claim it is timeless, and describes all happenings in advance. Oops, shurely shome mishtake, Mo.
Your scientists say that around 400 million new stars are born per day or 4800 stars per second! Did they see the new stars being created by the 'big bang' explosion. :whistling:
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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manfred
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by manfred »

SAM wrote:
Fernando wrote:Predicted? But it has Allah saying he did something. So that would mean the Koran was describing what happened after the instant of the Big Bang. Yet they claim it is timeless, and describes all happenings in advance. Oops, shurely shome mishtake, Mo.
Your scientists say that around 400 million new stars are born per day or 4800 stars per second! Did they see the new stars being created by the 'big bang' explosion. :whistling:
Formation of stars:

http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/ast122/lectures/lec13.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Essentially, a collapsing process..... gas and dust clouds (from debris and from dead stars and so on) condense, and the denser they get the more gravity they acquire, drawing in more and more material. This is a self-enforcing process, rather like a sinking ship: water gets in, it gets heavier, so sinks a bit, so more water gets in .... on and on until the ship sits on the sea floor. In a star the gravity eventually produces pressure which in turn makes heat. Eventually the expanding force of the heat and the gravity balance, and you have a new star.
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manfred
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by manfred »

SAM, the more texts you mention the worse it gets.....So let's a a quick look at this one too....
Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
To some Muslims this is about the "big bang" , but not to you it seems, as you have dismissed that as "conjecture".

The text from surah 41, the one we started with, has a SEQUENTIAL story. First the earth, then things on the earth, then the sky, then things in the sky. The sequence, earth first sky later is also confirmed in surah 2, as we have seen.

So where does this leave us with the verse you mention? Either you can say it contradicts the other accounts, because it does not have the same sequential account, our you can try and harmonise it, by suggesting after the earth was created there were some smoky left overs, and these were used to make the sky and the seven heavens.

But what we can see clearly that Muslims cannot even agree amongst themselves what the Qur'an means, so your repeated assertion that you must convert before you can understand it has fallen apart by your own efforts.


Next, please explain "We made from water every living thing"... the angels too, the jinn? And man is described variously as being made from water, dust, a blood clot (or similar) and even nothing at all.

Furthermore, please comment on the logic of the verse you gave.... It is OBVIOUS that "heavens and earth were joined together"? Everyone can see that? And how is this statement some kind of "proof" for Mohammed's claims? In what way is this evidence for Mohammed's teachings at all?

"Do the unbelievers not know that the great spaghetti monster made every living thing from pasta, and he created the universe by pouring the pasta and the water from the great sauce pan into the Great Colander, separating the earth, made from pasta and later the sky make from the leftover water? Will they not then believe?"

Who says nobody can write a verse like in the Qur'an?
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by Nosuperstition »

Takeiteasynow wrote:
Time or day does not exist before creation and during creation. Time and day exist after the universe is created.
There is no evidence that the universe was ever created. All than can be taken into consideration is that a possible Big Bang relates to the observable universe - which may be nothing more than a local event in an infinitive universe without beginning or ending. Something you can call eternity.
Yes it is indeed quite possible that the universe exists by chance.However there are a number of people who contest the theory of evolution saying that they have found loopholes in it and are still teaching it to kids because they were ordered to do so even though they have severe reservations about the theory as a whole.

Just like linguistic paleontology is being contested to disprove the so called Aryan Invasion Theory,the theory of evolution is also being targeted to proved creationism of the Bible and Intelligent design by God.Edison said that people tried to sell the idea of God to him by describing Him as a compassionate being.Now if creation indeed is due to such an Intelligent and Compassionate design,why is it that the fire flys interpret some forms of light such as ultra-violet ones emanating from butterlamps,candles as well as electric lights as distress signals from their trapped female compatriots and die trying to mistakenly rescue them from those heated filaments etc.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Yes it is indeed quite possible that the universe exists by chance.However there are a number of people who contest the theory of evolution saying that they have found loopholes in it
The first sentence has nothing to do with the second - admit it: you are a social scientist!
But basically I agree: evolution theory is more about the rules of the game than that it explains how life evolves. It's a theory in desperate need of revisions....
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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